Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (craft bags)

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I agree that this isn't something that should be exclusive to ESO+, these Crafting Bags will fundamentally alter the way people who use them play the game significantly for the better, and to say that all the players who pay money directly for DLC's shouldn't have the option to buy this also is a slap in the face to all of us.

I understand and agree that there isn't nearly enough of an incentive to buy ESO+ currently but that doesn't justify adding something this important and giving it only to Subscribers, two wrongs do not make a right and while it's wrong to have ESO+ not be more rewarding it's also wrong to give them something that should be available to everyone just to appease Subscribers and incentivize more people to Subscribe.

This incident really makes me question the validity and practicality of offering two different payment methods for DLC's in the first place, and if this is how hard ZOS is going to push to emphasize Subscribing as the superior option then I think it was a mistake to ever drop the Subscription model. If they are going to continue to have these two alternatives coexist, then they need to be equitably implemented, and while it was unfairly balanced before against Subscribing, now it's going to be unfairly balanced in favor of Subscribing, and while I fully understand all the Subscribers who selfishly want this to stay for them alone, that isn't remotely fair or reasonable for the rest of us.

Just because ESO+ people were getting the shaft before doesn't mean everyone else should be getting the shaft now just to compensate, and that seems to be the rationale behind a lot of people's arguments, that ESO+ is and should be the better option and anyone too cheap to use it can suck it, and that you deserve anything you can get just to make ESO+ actually be worth your money. Newsflash, you don't, we all deserve access to such fundamentally important and game-changing additions, including people who have no interest in Subscribing but who have and will continue to buy DLC content outright.

If they want ESO+ to be more worthwhile then there are lots of other ways they could improve it that won't deprive everyone else of such important content, and anyone saying that the crafting bags finally justify their Subscription and should stay exclusive should be spending their time doing something more useful and coming up with other ways they can get their money's worth that doesn't screw over the rest of us. Seriously that isn't even a valid argument in the least, that's like saying it's not fair that Women don't get equal pay and suggesting that the solution is to give them even more than Men, which is patently ridiculous. You can't fix something that's broken by going overboard in the other direction, it fixes nothing and just stirs up trouble.

You say there are better ways to make ESO+ worthwhile, can you give some? Really give some, where someone else like yourself, doesn't say's its unfair I want that too, but I don't want to support the game to get it.

This is not fundamental to the game, its convenient, everyone who's played from launch has done so without the crafting bag, so it being fundamental to the game, is fundamentally wrong based on the evidence of the last two years without this convenience.

If this convenience is wanted so badly by many players, may be they will see the benefits of subscribing, which will be a win for the game.

Its nice though that you think people who are supporting the game are screwing you over though.

I didn't say it was fundamental to the game, I said it fundamentally alters the way people who have it play the game, which is slightly but notably different.

But does it?
I mean, I'm still going to have to return to town to every time my inventory fills up with garbage, it'll just take a little longer; maybe... MAYBE it'll save me a bank trip to drop off the mats I get from deconning (which I still have to return to town to do).

For most zones, the crafting mats you find are specific to either your level or the zone level. Meaning you are probably filling 20-30 inventory slots with crafting mats at any one time before making a town run to get rid of them. That's about how much the game will change... It will save a subscriber however much time it takes to fill 20-30 inventory slots and drop them at the bank.

How long is that for you?

Except it's more than that, because I'm a budding master crafter and I pick up any and all crafting mats I can, which fills up my Inventory in no time at all. Provisioning alone has more than 30 mats, and I often have all kind of mats that I pick up, requiring me to go to the bank constantly.

Also I can't store nearly as much as I'd like, not by a long shot. I want to be a master crafter who can craft anything for anyone of any level, and I don't have anywhere close to the bank space for that as it is. Even just the stuff I keep for myself I can't keep more than one stack of, and being able to store as many as I want would in and of itself be game-changing for me personally given how much I farm and how little I can actually keep currently.

There's the key words, in bold.
Just because it's a game-changer -for you- doesn't mean that you and everyone else need it or even have a use for it. Some people don't craft at all. It's true, I got a buddy who has zero interest in crafting; it's just not his thing.

It's not a fundamental feature, and your crafting addiction doesn't make you a second class citizen any more than my brothers addiction to car parts makes him one. Look at your bag space as a form of currency. You've chosen to spend that currency on crafting rather than save it. Now you're asking for additional currency simply because you've spent yours.

You've made a choice to pick up every little bauble you see which makes your game time inconvenient. Now you have another choice to make, one which could potentially make things easier. But you'd rather not pay the asking price.

Wow, way to focus on one thing and miss everything else.

I said that the increased inventory space makes it game-changing for me yes, as it will to countless other people as well so your response is invalid just for that, and anyway that's only part of it, the other part is a simplified management of inventory space altogether, making it astronomically easier to use mats between characters and preventing you from needing to go to the bank anywhere close to as often.

But by all means keep ignoring everything you can't argue against and just focus on the one weak link you think you can find in my argument, it just serves to invalidate anything you have to say and saves me the trouble of a long and complicated response.

wayfarerx · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

And those of us who buy content outright should not be relegated to being second class citizens to such an extent as this, if that's how they were going to have it then they never should have had different payment methods at all, and should have stuck with Subscriptions only. If they're going to have different payment options then there should be fairness in what is received with each, and the crafting bag is just too good of a perk for it to be fair to have it exclusive.

There is fairness. You have the option to pay significantly less to play the same game.
Sorry. Lower price tag, fewer features. If you pay the same amount or more, then just subscribe. It's not rocket surgery.

We who bought content directly shouldn't have to Subscribe just to get access to something that should be available to anyone in the crown store, it undermines the entire notion of having different payment methods, and after having spent so much money buying crowns it would be a waste to just subscribe now, I wouldn't have spent crowns on the same things if I were subscribed and the crowns I did spend would be invalidated by making that change, which I refuse to do.

What you did in the past doesn't matter. This isn't a reward.

It's not entitlement to expect to get my money's worth (which is what all Subscribers have been whining about all this time), and switching to a subscription after buying so much directly is utterly wasteful and not at all worth what I've paid for it. ZOS trying to incentivize paying customers to waste our money just to get a single game-changing perk is underhanded, and I'll quit the game sooner than subscribe if ZOS values me so little as a a customer to try and do so.

You got your money's worth. Nothing you bought came with a promised reward in the fine print.
Subscribing now give you access to future content and perks, they aren't asking you to pay for you DLC a second time or applying monthly payments retroactively. You haven't wasted anything.

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent. And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Again, you are mired in the sunk cost fallacy. You gambled (by assuming that sub-free was a better fit for you) and now it appears you are losing. You can walk away from what it is you think you've lost (by getting a sub) or you can rage at the dealer that the game is rigged (i.e. posting in this thread).

Just because you bought DLC before does not mean you can never sub again, and you very likely saved money in the long run by waiting until ESO+ had a feature you wanted.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent.

How.
Explain to me in simple terms (because I'm obviously an idiot) how not any of this changes the experience you had over the last 13 months.

And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

You feel disrespected. Other customers feel pretty good about it. Can't please everyone I guess.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Did you see the math? back on page 6 or 7 (the mods have moved some stuff around). Subscribers pay more for this game than non-subscribers. That's an objective truth. This isn't an -in the past issue- this is a reality moving forward. Non-subscribers get more raw content for their dollar than subscribers. Period.

The crafting bag is an incentive from ZOS to their customers to say, "Hey. We appreciate the extra money you're willing to spend every month. Here's a little something to make your game time a little more convenient."

It's not a thank you for past performance or money spent. It's an incentive to make that investment, to pay that little bit extra every month going forward from here.

IrishGirlGamer · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

A Couple of things ... @IrishGirlGamer ...

... The point of the thread is that there are those who purchased the game with an understanding that ESO Plus would always be optional ESO Plus was suppose to ONLY offer "As a member, you're going to get some great in-game bonuses (like additional experience gain) and a monthly allotment of crowns—virtual currency you can spend in the new Crown Store on great cosmetic and convenience items. " but now Zenimax has decided to add in a new feature and make it exclusive.

So what would you anticipate? That it would just be sold in the crown store like DLC?

I have no problem with that. You have to understand that it would probably come at a very, very stiff price: maybe 10k or even 15k crowns. It's not DLC that you would play through and be done with. It's a permanent feature to the game.

Would you pay $50 for it?

Anything less than that and Zenimax loses it's sub value. I mean, if it's like 5000 crowns, I'll buy it and be done with it - and then why sub? The benefits that currently exist for subs are just not that great. I've been subbing for two years and I keep subbing to support the game - but that attitude isn't going to turn a profit for Zenimax.

They need to offer something in the sub of value. This has great value. I can see why they made the decision, but I'm really okay if they sell it in the crown store, too.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

the bag could very well operate like the exp potion where the way to access it and the length of time drastically differ as in slots and use.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

And those of us who buy content outright should not be relegated to being second class citizens to such an extent as this, if that's how they were going to have it then they never should have had different payment methods at all, and should have stuck with Subscriptions only. If they're going to have different payment options then there should be fairness in what is received with each, and the crafting bag is just too good of a perk for it to be fair to have it exclusive.

There is fairness. You have the option to pay significantly less to play the same game.
Sorry. Lower price tag, fewer features. If you pay the same amount or more, then just subscribe. It's not rocket surgery.

We who bought content directly shouldn't have to Subscribe just to get access to something that should be available to anyone in the crown store, it undermines the entire notion of having different payment methods, and after having spent so much money buying crowns it would be a waste to just subscribe now, I wouldn't have spent crowns on the same things if I were subscribed and the crowns I did spend would be invalidated by making that change, which I refuse to do.

What you did in the past doesn't matter. This isn't a reward.

It's not entitlement to expect to get my money's worth (which is what all Subscribers have been whining about all this time), and switching to a subscription after buying so much directly is utterly wasteful and not at all worth what I've paid for it. ZOS trying to incentivize paying customers to waste our money just to get a single game-changing perk is underhanded, and I'll quit the game sooner than subscribe if ZOS values me so little as a a customer to try and do so.

You got your money's worth. Nothing you bought came with a promised reward in the fine print.
Subscribing now give you access to future content and perks, they aren't asking you to pay for you DLC a second time or applying monthly payments retroactively. You haven't wasted anything.

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent. And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Again, you are mired in the sunk cost fallacy. You gambled (by assuming that sub-free was a better fit for you) and now it appears you are losing. You can walk away from what it is you think you've lost (by getting a sub) or you can rage at the dealer that the game is rigged (i.e. posting in this thread).

Just because you bought DLC before does not mean you can never sub again, and you very likely saved money in the long run by waiting until ESO+ had a feature you wanted.

It wasn't a gamble, what's wrong with you? It was a logical assessment of the available facts, no gamble involved.

And I had more faith in ZOS than to undermine so profoundly one of the methods they offered me to pay for DLC, so yes I went with what made sense for me, it still is what makes sense for me in every way besides regarding the crafting bag, and I'm not rich enough to just waste my money by subscribing after the fact just for that one perk.

The economics of my choice are irrelevant, the point is that ZOS offered me a payment method that I prefer, allowing and encouraging me to buy their DLC's, only to then change things such that my preferred payment method is suddenly undermined. So long as ZOS offers two payment methods then they need to be balanced reasonably, and it's not reasonable to give Subscribers any perk no matter how good just so ESO+ is more worthwhile even if it screws over the rest of us.

And no it won't save me money in the long run, quite the opposite. I bought everything I want and paid a lot for it, more than if I had subscribed, because it would pay off in the long run (which hasn't had anywhere close to a chance to happen yet). If I subscribed now it would be an overt waste of at least $150, maybe more, and that's not okay for ZOS to force on me if I want this one single perk.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Also, what is this crap about feeling like you "wasted crowns on DLC?"

You didn't waste Crowns... or money.

ESO went subscription free around, what March or April last year, right? Let's call it April.

In that time subscribers have shelled out $194.87. (13 months @ $14.99 per)

To buy all of the "free" DLC released so far you'd need 7,500 Crowns. Assuming you made the least wise purchase available and bought your crowns in increments of 750 each; that's a total cash investment of $79.99. Your out of pocket cost is less than half that of a consistent subscriber.

But! You say, subscribers get 1,500 Crowns per months to play with. And that's true.
1,500 Crowns per month is 18,000 Crowns for the year. Nice.

However, keep in mind that your smaller monetary investment means you have money left over to buy more Crowns with; $114.88 to be exact. With which you could purchase another 14,750 Crowns. (with about 2 bucks left over.)

So... Let do a little math, see who comes out better.

19,500 Crowns for Subscribers
-14,750 Crowns for non-subscribers
= 4,750 Crowns left over, Subscribers got the better deal....

But wait, there's more. Subscribers have to live with the constant ultimatum of losing it all if the cancel their subscription. To be on truly equal footing, both parties would have to be bound by the same commitments as well as monetary investments. So let's cancel that subscription and purchase all those DLCs we have to now and...

Wait, we're 2,750 Crowns short.

So, there ya go. For the same monetary investment:

Non-Subscribers can OWN all DLCs and have 14,750 Crowns
Subscribers can RENT all DLC and have 19,500 Crowns and a commitment to continue subscribing
Or, Subscribers can purchase the DLC anyway and have 12,000 Crowns left over with no further commitment.

Pretty sure that's right... Someone check my math.

EDIT: Forgot it was May, been 13 months. Adjusted math.

In case you guys haven't seen it I'll post it again.
@NewBlacksmurf
@Lucius_Aelius

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

A Couple of things @ShedsHisTail @Oreyn_Bearclaw @Talyena @newtinmpls @dimensional @IrishGirlGamer and @otherswhoIdidnttag

1. This is the first time a feature was locked behind a subscription exclusively. We are told "ESO Plus membership is not required to receive gameplay patches, bug fixes, and other updates to The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited" but yet this feature update is somehow different. Which was my original point here - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3005009/#Comment_3005009

2.[/b] The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!"

3. On consoles the ESO Plus program doesn't even do what its marketed to do - "²Total Crown allotment will be delivered at the time of purchase." link - http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

4. On consoles we don't have any option other than one month - https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26432/kw/eso plus

5. For many, the ESO Plus just doesn't work on Xbox One - https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/32103/kw/eso plus

"Game Director Matt Firor explained that the base game will maintain "the same levelling pace, experience point gain, [and] user interface" it always has, and promised that it won't be made more difficult to play for those who don't spring for real-money items."

"An item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: It either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending Crowns," he wrote. "When it comes to this second category of items, we will generally make in-game variants of similar items available either as drops or as player-craftable items as well."

I dont see where this fails any point of these tests, other than if something isnt working on console, that it needs fixed.

1. Says you dont need this for gameplay patches, bug fixes, and other Updates. The last one is a little vague, but I dont see where Crafting bags fits into any of these.
2. Logically, if a subrscription gets you everything the game has to offer, a lack of a subscription means you might miss a f ew things.
3-5 I wont speak to consoles if they are broken somehow, but I think you can still subscribe on console and get this so, no issue here. If something is broken with ESO plus on console, well that should of course be dealt with.

First quote: The game is not being made more difficult because you never had his feature to begin with.

Second quote: it says they will "generally" make similar items available, but clearly they wouldnt use that word if they always planned to do it.

Look, I see why people are upset, but I dont think this is some great ethical controversy. They arent taking anything away from non-subscribers, and if they want this that badly, well there is a way to get it. Subscribers also get an XP boost that cant be bought in the crown store. Yes you can buy scrolls, but that is a distinctly separate bonus. Both are features that save a bit of time with subscribing. You also have plenty of in game features to allow for 1840 item slots, and soon you will be able to buy more in a little place called the crown store.

Gidorick · May 2016

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

@Gidorick lol

Deliberately trying to not understand the argument?

If it helps think of crafting bags as a crown store rental for 3000 crowns. See, now everyone has access to it

And there @myrrrorb14_ESO , you are being deliberately obtuse. Content rental vs content ownership is the issue here, and you know it.... you should have used this emote ->

Yeah, couldn't decide between and

But you are exactly right. This is about renting vs owning and it will not and should not be owned. Materials and inventory space should be analyzed in an ongoing basis to determine if there is an overwhelming need to increase space or condense materials. Imo they should increase spaces by 5 again, but my opinion isn't worth much lol. They should probably overhaul crafting in general with DB.

Since this will be rentable it should be attached to ESO+ or have a high monthly cost in Crowns. Again, my opinion means very little.

Bwahaha! Both your posts get an awesome for that @myrrrorb14_ESO . You have me wondering, though, if it were rentable for a smaller amount... let's say 500 crowns per month, but it was still free for ESO+ members, I wonder if people would have such an issue.... and I wonder how that would effect the subs... hmm.. I guess we will never know.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward
*in regards to the last tag.....it really isn't about who spends more or less or a ESO Plus vs non-subscriber or crown purchaser. That is off-topic and nothing more than a elitism argument which again...is so far from reality and so far from the topic because people have attempted to input their own assumptions of what and how ZOS operates as well as the intent behind the feature.

Has anyone heard or read anywhere that the bag has anything to do with subscribers vs non-subscribers financially or support? No

lookstwice · May 2016

I still don't see the issue.

- Sub for a month, deposit what 100's of items to the craft bag.
- Cancel and at least for that month no worries on inventory. Collect your 1500 crowns for the month.
- Purchase character slot with 1500 crowns for more inventory.
- Now play for 2-3 months after the sub expires while refilling all your inventory slots on all 9 toons (yes I said toons

- )
- Re-sub again for another month to refill your crafting bags again. Collect 1500 crowns.
- Purchase character slot
- Now play maybe 3-4 months with the sub expired with all 10 TOONS!!!!
- Repeat

It seems to me, I think most that are complaining about this can easily do the above and maybe pay a mont's sub 3 or 4 times a year. So think about this like paying a measly 45-60 a year and getting 4500 - 6000 crowns to purchase a DLC or two a year. And you will get quite a big benefit from the crafting bags as well.

So I guess I don't see much of an issue, I'm assuming most who don't sub buy the occasional DLC or something else from the store.

Defilted · May 2016

Need to make some people understand ESO+ does not net you anything for free.
There is no free crowns
There are no free expansions
There are no free XP buffs

You spend 15.99. 16.08 after taxes where I live every single month. This means I am getting something for the money I have freely given. June 9th will be my 1 year of full ESO plus because I started playing this game on the XBOX. I would put my 192.96 of dollars spent against almost anyone in this game and challenge them that they have spent more within in one year and I bet you there would be some but not that many.

ESO+ crafting bags is awesome and it is a way for ZOS to generate steady cash flow. I see no reason to give this to non-subbed accounts.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward
*in regards to the last tag.....it really isn't about who spends more or less or a ESO Plus vs non-subscriber or crown purchaser. That is off-topic and nothing more than a elitism argument which again...is so far from reality and so far from the topic because people have attempted to input their own assumptions of what and how ZOS operates as well as the intent behind the feature.

Has anyone heard or read anywhere that the bag has anything to do with subscribers vs non-subscribers financially or support? No

It was an easy question.
If you were in charge, how would you implement this feature for non-subscribers?

That should require one, maybe two sentences to answer.

SteveCampsOut · May 2016

Aisle9 wrote: »

Was really going to ignore this thread, but it keeps getting up, it's way too juicy not to comment, but I'm doing so just because I feel the need to argue on the Internet(TM), not because of an actual necessity.

So ZOS found a way to lure people into subscribing...

Bad ZOS, greedy, they expect money for their work and to maintain server farms... bad!

I'm not a sub, I haven't spent a single cent in the crown store, hell, they even gave me the game for my birthday... I'm probably one of the worst customers they have, yet they allow me to play their game, which, I'm finding enjoyable. I'm currently unemployed, and, even when I wasn't, freelancing doesn't really give a steady income, so, subbing is not really an option for me, right now. Would I sub if I had a steady income? Probably not. I don't like the model, If I pay for stuff I want the stuff, so, I would probably just buy the crowns to buy the DLCs. Also, as far as money spending goes, I would prioritize booze and women, so....

That said, crafting bags for ESO+ only

I'm a master crafter, have all the skills maxed and plenty of herbs, woods, stones, runes... Is the lack of crafting bags/increased space making/going to make the game unplayable for me ?

Would I like to have it... sure I would.

Then, again, we're playing Hoarders Online, of course people want more space, but only subs are getting it...

I couldn't sleep, I woke up way too early for my brain to be functional, so, I started reading all 6 pages of this thread, but...

And neither should you.

Subs make it so that scum like me can still enjoy the game, despite not giving money to the company to maintain it.

You gave them 20$ for a mount ? Big deal, they need 100.000$ every month just to pay the bills for the server farms. Do you know how much electricity a server consumes ? A lot.

And energy cost money. Every month.

Occasional crown store purchases don't even come close to what you might need to maintain them. Only subs, hundreds of thousands of them, make sure the game can still exist. That's not my opinion, that's a fact.

Granted, to understand this, you should really try to manage a server for a while, like, 6 months - 1year, then have to listen to people that give you 200$ every year saying things like "I deserve more band"... priceless.

And if you're buying crowns every month, or often enough to make you comparable to a sub, well, as many others already pointed out...

No need to reiterate...

And coffee kicked in, I realized I'm spending brain resources in actually making an argument when

There, I gave my 2cents

PS - I found the game enjoyable, so, I will buy some crowns for DLCs Soon(TM), promise

BEST POST EVER!

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent.

How.
Explain to me in simple terms (because I'm obviously an idiot) how not any of this changes the experience you had over the last 13 months.

And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

You feel disrespected. Other customers feel pretty good about it. Can't please everyone I guess.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Did you see the math? back on page 6 or 7 (the mods have moved some stuff around). Subscribers pay more for this game than non-subscribers. That's an objective truth. This isn't an -in the past issue- this is a reality moving forward. Non-subscribers get more raw content for their dollar than subscribers. Period.

The crafting bag is an incentive from ZOS to their customers to say, "Hey. We appreciate the extra money you're willing to spend every month. Here's a little something to make your game time a little more convenient."

It's not a thank you for past performance or money spent. It's an incentive to make that investment, to pay that little bit extra every month going forward from here.

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

And I know that Subscribers pay more, that's why I didn't subscribe, the perks weren't worth it and I never expected ZOS would change the dynamic so dramatically this late in the game. I bought a whole bunch of stuff up front, just like ZOS encouraged us non-subscribers to do, with the expectation that I'd save money down the line, and full well knowing that I'd be missing out on some potentially nice (but certainly not game-changing) perks. Now that's all shot to hell and ZOS is forcing me to waste most of that money I spent (only some of which I would still have spent by subscribing, and I haven't been playing for the full year) just to get this one single game-changing perk.

And it's only underhanded because they're adding it only after people like me have invested in an alternate payment method under the assumption that we were valued customers and would be respected as such, which isn't the case at all if ZOS insists on incentivizing us to waste our money.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward
*in regards to the last tag.....it really isn't about who spends more or less or a ESO Plus vs non-subscriber or crown purchaser. That is off-topic and nothing more than a elitism argument which again...is so far from reality and so far from the topic because people have attempted to input their own assumptions of what and how ZOS operates as well as the intent behind the feature.

Has anyone heard or read anywhere that the bag has anything to do with subscribers vs non-subscribers financially or support? No

It was an easy question.
If you were in charge, how would you implement this feature for non-subscribers?

That should require one, maybe two sentences to answer.

@ShedsHisTail

-If I were in charge this wouldn't even be a discussion but that isnt the OP or what we are talking about. I'll entertain the question tho....The response is simple, I as well as what ZOS should do, is to increase the current benefits to ESO Plus.
-EXP rate should be 50%
-research should add 3 more slots
-gold should be increased by 30 - 50%
-discounts should apply to any crown store purchases including DLC
-the bag would be as is

In addition to the ESO Plus piece, you also build in opportunities for the rest of the customer base. No matter how attractive or how exclusive an offer is, its never going to appeal to all customers nor will it make them buy. You run the risk of loosing customers who already told you and shown you that they don't want to subscribe.

*what bothers me in your comments is that you don't understand a few things.
1. Feature - an interesting or important part, quality, ability, etc. (the ability to hold more items in your bag)

2. update - to change (something) by including the most recent information, to make (something) more modern (changing inventory for use of a crafting bag)

3. virtual item - Virtual goods are non-physical objects and money purchased for use in online communities or online games. Digital goods, on the other hand, may be a broader category including digital books, music, and movies.[1] Virtual goods are intangible by definition.[2]

Including digital gifts[3] and digital clothing for avatars,[4] virtual goods may be classified as services instead of goods[2] and are usually sold by companies that operate social networking services, community sites, or online games.[2] Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward
*in regards to the last tag.....it really isn't about who spends more or less or a ESO Plus vs non-subscriber or crown purchaser. That is off-topic and nothing more than a elitism argument which again...is so far from reality and so far from the topic because people have attempted to input their own assumptions of what and how ZOS operates as well as the intent behind the feature.

Has anyone heard or read anywhere that the bag has anything to do with subscribers vs non-subscribers financially or support? No

It was an easy question.
If you were in charge, how would you implement this feature for non-subscribers?

That should require one, maybe two sentences to answer.

@ShedsHisTail

-If I were in charge this wouldn't even be a discussion but that isnt the OP or what we are talking about. I'll entertain the question tho....The response is simple, I as well as what ZOS should do, is to increase the current benefits to ESO Plus.
-EXP rate should be 50%
-research should add 3 more slots
-gold should be increased by 30 - 50%
-discounts should apply to any crown store purchases including DLC
-the bag would be as is

What does this have to do with Non-Subscribers?

In addition to the ESO Plus piece, you also build in opportunities for the rest of the customer base. No matter how attractive or how exclusive an offer is, its never going to appeal to all customers nor will it make them buy. You run the risk of loosing customers who already told you and shown you that they don't want to subscribe.

Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.

*what bothers me in your comments is that you don't understand a few things.
1. Feature - an interesting or important part, quality, ability, etc. (the ability to hold more items in your bag)

2. update - to change (something) by including the most recent information, to make (something) more modern (changing inventory for use of a crafting bag)

3. virtual item - Virtual goods are non-physical objects and money purchased for use in online communities or online games. Digital goods, on the other hand, may be a broader category including digital books, music, and movies.[1] Virtual goods are intangible by definition.[2]

Including digital gifts[3] and digital clothing for avatars,[4] virtual goods may be classified as services instead of goods[2] and are usually sold by companies that operate social networking services, community sites, or online games.[2] Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions

I'm not going to argue semantics with you... So you can just drop this whole line of conversation with me and take it up with their legal team. I'm not even going to address it.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

DUTCH_REAPER · May 2016

Nope. I stopped reading when you said "this option needs to be available to us". It is available. Get the membership. PERIOD

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

Read the math.

Non-Subscribing -always- ends up cheaper if subscribers choose to purchase DLC instead of just rent.
Unless ZOS stops making DLCs, this will always be the case.

iam117 · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward
*in regards to the last tag.....it really isn't about who spends more or less or a ESO Plus vs non-subscriber or crown purchaser. That is off-topic and nothing more than a elitism argument which again...is so far from reality and so far from the topic because people have attempted to input their own assumptions of what and how ZOS operates as well as the intent behind the feature.

Has anyone heard or read anywhere that the bag has anything to do with subscribers vs non-subscribers financially or support? No

It was an easy question.
If you were in charge, how would you implement this feature for non-subscribers?

That should require one, maybe two sentences to answer.

@ShedsHisTail

-If I were in charge this wouldn't even be a discussion but that isnt the OP or what we are talking about. I'll entertain the question tho....The response is simple, I as well as what ZOS should do, is to increase the current benefits to ESO Plus.
-EXP rate should be 50%
-research should add 3 more slots
-gold should be increased by 30 - 50%
-discounts should apply to any crown store purchases including DLC
-the bag would be as is

What does this have to do with Non-Subscribers?

In addition to the ESO Plus piece, you also build in opportunities for the rest of the customer base. No matter how attractive or how exclusive an offer is, its never going to appeal to all customers nor will it make them buy. You run the risk of loosing customers who already told you and shown you that they don't want to subscribe.

Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.

*what bothers me in your comments is that you don't understand a few things.
1. Feature - an interesting or important part, quality, ability, etc. (the ability to hold more items in your bag)

2. update - to change (something) by including the most recent information, to make (something) more modern (changing inventory for use of a crafting bag)

3. virtual item - Virtual goods are non-physical objects and money purchased for use in online communities or online games. Digital goods, on the other hand, may be a broader category including digital books, music, and movies.[1] Virtual goods are intangible by definition.[2]

Including digital gifts[3] and digital clothing for avatars,[4] virtual goods may be classified as services instead of goods[2] and are usually sold by companies that operate social networking services, community sites, or online games.[2] Sales of virtual goods are sometimes referred to as microtransactions

I'm not going to argue semantics with you... So you can just drop this whole line of conversation with me and take it up with their legal team. I'm not even going to address it.

@ShedsHisTail
Slow down and read my comments please because your replies are as if you don't understand but instead of asking, youre attempting to create arguments.

Again, the OP and even I aren't here to argue against a subscriber or take anything away from the ESO Plus benefits.
In my reply you asked
Q-if I was in charge what would I do.
A- I detailed what I would do in general, as respects to ESO Plus as well as a breakdown from my previous reply in how the bag would exist outside of eso plus as to not impact or negate the ESO Plus piece.

Points to your replies.
Q- What does this have to do with Non-Subscribers?
A - This is how I would create value in ESO Plus for all subscribers as this bag doesn't address anyone who isn't collecting crafting materials in bulk or storing them in bulk.

Q- Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.
A- we are still discussing the crafting bags right? ZOS has taken no measure to build in any other opportunities to access the crafting bag nor have they taken steps to resolve the xbox one issues with ESO Plus. Please comment on specific steps that ZOS has taken to offer the crafting bag outside of ESO Plus that I have shown to dislike?

Q- I'm not going to argue semantics with you... So you can just drop this whole line of conversation with me and take it up with their legal team. I'm not even going to address it.
A- Its not semantics, its black and white. No idea why you're commenting in an aggressive or upset manner. I'm responding to the questions and comments you tagged me on.

If you want me to take it up with legal, please do not comment, quote or tag my replies.

Autolycus · May 2016

As someone who has been subscribing since Early Access 2+ years ago:

For the first year of this game, we were periodically rewarded for being loyal. We were loyal throughout a great deal of broken mechanics, items, textures... you name it. We put up with botting and lag, we dealt with crashes, and even back then the content was so difficult that we couldn't solo quest through even vr1 zones without a tank and a healer. But, we did stick with it, and for that loyalty, we were rewarded.

ZOS changed their business model. It was clear that the game was in poor shape (in terms of player base) and us "handful" of subscribers were the only thing keeping it alive. ZOS introduced the B2P model and the Crown Store. Since then until now, we have received nothing for our loyalty. To put this into perspective, if you purchased the Imperial Edition and every expansion since (but didn't spend a penny in the Crown Store), you'd still only amount to half of the money subscribers have invested since launch on a monthly subscription.

Not only have we spent a great deal more than most B2P players, a considerable portion of subscribers have made very extensive efforts to bring the newer members of the community into the fray. This is not to suggest that non-subscribers don't help the community too, but most of us have been doing it for a lot longer (and with a lot better insight into how things actually work). There have been no loyalty rewards, no subscription rewards (unless you count the subscription-based crown allotment that most of us have been hoarding, for lack of any quality, purchasable items in the crown store) for a year.

All due respect, it's about damn time they gave something back to those of us who have committed twice the money (and in some cases, twice the time) to this game and it's community. I think that if I were to go back and tally up all of the materials I've used from my own personal stash to make new players gear, and the time I've spent teaching B2P players how to do the content, and how to build their characters, it would probably drop a few jaws.

There is a very simple solution to the crafting bag: subscribe. Most other games award benefits far greater than a crafting bag to subscribers. We have been subscribing this whole time in an effort to keep this game going, even when the outlook was incredibly bleak. So before saying "it's not fair," consider for a second whether or not we deserve it. I think many will agree that we do.

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

Read the math.

Non-Subscribing -always- ends up cheaper if subscribers choose to purchase DLC instead of just rent.
Unless ZOS stops making DLCs, this will always be the case.

Huh? You're still going on about that? You realize I'm not talking about that anymore right? It's not about the costs of one payment method versus another, it's about me being forced to waste my money after investing all-in with one payment method only to be undermined after the fact and forced to waste most of that money buying a subscription that would have (eventually) given me everything for free along with the subscription. So they're essentially forcing me to buy a whole bunch of content twice by switching payment methods now instead of just buying everything once with a single payment method, which of course is cheaper than buying the same things twice. It's really not that complicated, and like I said, it's you that needs to rethink your math.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Q- Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.
A- we are still discussing the crafting bags right? ZOS has taken no measure to build in any other opportunities to access the crafting bag nor have they taken steps to resolve the xbox one issues with ESO Plus. Please comment on specific steps that ZOS has taken to offer the crafting bag outside of ESO Plus that I have shown to dislike?

This is the only part I'm concerned with right now. And the part you haven't answered, and that might be my fault for not being more specific.

In regards to the crafting bag, what opportunities would you provide to non-subscribing population?
How would they get it? Under what conditions?