People who buy DLCs with crowns run the risk of being locked out of subscription benefits and/or overspending.
People who subscribe run the risk of losing access to DLCs if they let their subscription lapse.
You choose the risk you're willing to take when you choose how to play the game. What you're feeling is called buyer's remorse, and while it might suck there is nothing inherently unfair about it.
Crafting bags are available to everyone, they cost ~$15 a month. A banker assistant is available to everyone, it costs ~$45. You don't have to like the prices ZOS sets, but they are either worth it to you or not, your decision.
Lucius_Aelius wrote: »You can't fix something that's broken by going overboard in the other direction, it fixes nothing and just stirs up trouble.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@SwaminoNowlinoSwaminoNowlino wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »SleepyTroll wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »In short.....
-The bag should be a base game feature and the ability to obtain the bag should be in-line with:
-crowns
-in-game gold
-ESO Plus
There are a lot of arguments or opinions but bottom line is this. ZOS has moved away from their initial confirmation of what would be linked to a subscription and what would be in the crown store.
Also, the fact that ESO Plus doesn't work as it should on Xbox One, the bag or any other features should be exclusive to a sub.
How have they gone away with what they said as far as subscription and crown store? the BAG is convenience like literally if I could describe the bag I would say: a bag to conveniently store crafting items instead of having to visit the bank or mule alts.
The first and most obvious is what I mention as respects to Xbox One...this has been the case since day 1 and it still occurs as recent as April 28th 2016
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/03/17/crown-store-showcase
" Don't forget that members of ESO Plus receive a monthly allotment of crowns in addition to other in-game bonuses! "
The other concern is items that are locked behind a sub or crowns
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/02/12/the-road-ahead---february
"he most important thing to remember about Tamriel Unlimited's virtual currency system is that we're not adjusting the base game—it will be exactly the same game, with the same leveling pace, experience point gain, user interface, etc.
We're adding customization and convenience items in the Crown Store, but those will be added to the game as it is now; we're not going to make it harder for you to enjoy the game you already play to encourage you to use the Crown Store."
"Game Director Matt Firor explained that the base game will maintain "the same levelling pace, experience point gain, [and] user interface" it always has, and promised that it won't be made more difficult to play for those who don't spring for real-money items."
"An item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: It either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending Crowns," he wrote. "When it comes to this second category of items, we will generally make in-game variants of similar items available either as drops or as player-craftable items as well."
Not sure if you're on PTS but therGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Thank you for your oppinion. However I disagree. ESO has every right to provide these bags exclusively to subscribers and no need to bow threads like this one.
Anyone with basic economic and marketing knowledge would understand that subscriptions are the prefered source of income for a great many reasons. At that this carrot added to the ESO+ benefits is a big plus for marketing subscriptions.
In the end, crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is a win win for Zos. You can sub if you want to.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO just read right above....its not a matter of opinion according to my comments above. While others have input their opinions and such, when the director of any company goes public with statements, that company should always make decisions around those statements.
This literally makes the game more difficult in respects to inventory management without a sub so a few things.
1. This is in conflict of earlier promises that were made on ESO Live about the words in the article linked above.
2. The company hasn't resolved outstanding issues specific to xbox one and the crowns or DLC access under ESP Plus
3. Making any feature exclusive to a subscription with no other options partial or incomplete of the subscription feature is not a win nor is it an intelligent business practice specifically due to earlier statement made by the companies director
4. Anyone with basic economic and marketing knowledge would understand that subscriptions ARE NOT a preferred source of income. Actual cash is a preferred source. All a subscription does is create another study pattern to monitor a customer base. Once you factor in charge-backs, canceled CC, failed charges, customer service costs, etc. its nothing more than another form of payment. that's all it is
5. The real issue if that ZOS refuses to offer meaningful ESO Plus benefits so they've came up with this idea which is going to back-fire around June 20th 2016
1) The game will be exactly zero percent more difficult for you by not having a crafting bag. So you're categorically irrefutably wrong. His statement that they provide a way to save time is a testament to that. "We will GENERALLY make in-game variants..." Not always, not even the majority of the time. So stop.
5) Stop... Just please stop... I am actually an economist for a living and this is maybe the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. As a company, I can pay people to create stuff to feed one time purchases, that are inherently unreliable as to how they will impact revenues. Conversely, I could have a steady supply of income that I can rely on to make investment decisions, and spend next to zero in return as it has already been obligated. I can't count on you to buy a mount four months from now, but I can count on the money that I already have obligated to me through subscriptions in order to make investment decisions.
So stop. Seriously. You are embarrassing yourself.
Have you even played PTS and Xbox One respectively?
This isn't an argument or debate its current state vs future state.
End of discussion.
As far as the comment of your perspective that I'm embarrassing myself? What are you referring to specifically. Detail those items as it's unclear in your comments.
I'm observing that your perspective is that of how you think and feel companies can operate excluding what the directors of the companies have committed to. A company whose words can't be trusted isn't a company but instead unethical and that's the direction of my comments. Again, it's not an opinionated perspective but observations of what was said and promised vs what is being done or lack thereof.
And this really has nothing to do with this conversation other than distraction.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO
Read the prior comments as the entire conversation has everything to do with it. Not sure if you took a moment to read it before u replied
Personofsecrets wrote: »pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »crafting bag exclusivity is everything that is wrong with the subscription system and crown store. It is just the next stop on the slippery slope to more pay to win.
I totally disagree with you, you are not being excluded you are making a choice to not subscribe. You need to rephrase and realize you made a choice just like subscribers made a choice.
They made a choice to pay to win
I made a choice to not pay to win
Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »crafting bag exclusivity is everything that is wrong with the subscription system and crown store. It is just the next stop on the slippery slope to more pay to win.
I totally disagree with you, you are not being excluded you are making a choice to not subscribe. You need to rephrase and realize you made a choice just like subscribers made a choice.
They made a choice to pay to win
I made a choice to not pay to win
By no definition based in logic is the crafting bag P2W. It has absolutely zero effect on playability or strength in combat of any character. It's merely storage. To suggest this is P2W is absurd at best.
Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »crafting bag exclusivity is everything that is wrong with the subscription system and crown store. It is just the next stop on the slippery slope to more pay to win.
I totally disagree with you, you are not being excluded you are making a choice to not subscribe. You need to rephrase and realize you made a choice just like subscribers made a choice.
They made a choice to pay to win
I made a choice to not pay to win
By no definition based in logic is the crafting bag P2W. It has absolutely zero effect on playability or strength in combat of any character. It's merely storage. To suggest this is P2W is absurd at best.
But...but, it IS P2W. You know, somehow.
Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
MakTheEater wrote: »So, this is what it's happening:
- Subscription game->It was not a success
- Buy2Play->A lot of new users arrived (I bought the game just because I found it for not even 10$)
- Now they are trying to make users pay every month again
And then I wonder why people are still playing WoW.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
MakTheEater wrote: »So, this is what it's happening:
- Subscription game->It was not a success
- Buy2Play->A lot of new users arrived (I bought the game just because I found it for not even 10$)
- Now they are trying to make users pay every month again
And then I wonder why people are still playing WoW.
vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
In one post you say it is pay to win in the next you say it isnt worth purchasing. Can you please make up your mind.
Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@Giles.floydub17_ESOGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
Why would you assume that?
seeing how everyone else is putting for stupid analogies here's mine, if you bought a subscription to a certain magazine for instance, would you expext to see different content in the one you could buy off the shelf?
@Tommy1979AtWar
This is a VERY GOOD analogy!
That is the whole point of the feedback where customers as well as myself are hoping to communicate to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or even @ZOS_KaiSchober that in that analogy, ESOTU is one magazine with a set of pages in paper and digital format but ESOTU+ESO Plus in the crafting bag circumstance becomes a paper and digital magazine with additional pages containing coupons, time savers, that cannot be purchased by a non-subscriber.
Its literally what many would describe as the first truly "pay2win" item which is labelled as a feature.
I do think the ESO PLUS version should be as presented, but the non-ESO Plus version should at least be a 200-400 slot bag for "X" crowns. The incentive for ESO Plus needs to be there but largely the way this is being set-up, it actually removes the "option" to subscribe as the game does change and does become harder to play without the crafting bag unless you don't gather any crafting materials ever.
The other and more obvious factor is that the existing benefits of ESO Plus need to be enhanced.
-more EXP (approx 50-75%)
-more gold (ppl don't even notice a difference so double this)
-research (actually allow 3 more per instead of only 3 at a reduced rate)
-DLC (no changes unless you want to offer a 3 day early start option)
-On XBOX ONE - actually fix the program to work 100% o the time regardless of xbox live status and give ppl the crowns up front.
-One Xbox One and PS4 - allow different monthly sub options and dont hold crowns until the expiration date of the sum total of eso plus months subscribed.
Lets look at it from a base game to ESO plus game
Base Game:
-Can buy crowns
-Can Buy DLC
-Can buy EXP scrolls
-Can research 3 items per
-Can make gold
-Can get inspiration
-CANNOT buy any bag space for crafting items
ESO Plus
-Can buy crowns (but will get 1500*)
-Can Buy DLC (but it accessed for free)
-Can buy EXP scrolls (but given a slight boost)
-Can research 3 items per (adds reduced time)
-Can make gold (adds bonus for more per*)
-Can get inspiration (adds bonus per*)
-crafting bag exclusive in access and use
What are the benefits to a crafting bag?
-frees up inventory and bank space
-reduces the need to create alts for inventory space
-reduces the need to upgrade bank slots/inventory slots
-reduces actual cash and in-game gold investments for slots, characters and eliminates the amount of times currently required to log in and out different characters.
And those reasons just lists are a fabulous example of why having a crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is such a fabulous idea.
Everyone that wants access to it can have it. Just subscribe. Easy as pie. Thx Zos.
I'm glad you find those as value reasons for you to subscribe but to be honest having been a subscriber pre-and post of the B2P change on PC as well as having been a subscriber on Xbox One after the PC to console transfer, there is no value in subscribing. The crafting bag is a nice to have, but its not worth $15/month as its the only "new" thing that comes as a benefit because the rest of the program for me, is not of value. It actually makes the program "more unattractive" because of the obvious strategy behind locking a new customer requested feature behind a subscription which was removed and publicly marketed around for the growth of the game.
-I choose to buy DLC and crown store items on both platforms (removes some of the ESO Plus value)
-The bag isn't an incentive to subscribe on console at all because ESO Plus doesn't work as is, so I'm definitely not going to pay money for nothing when I can pay the same amount for something. Buying crowns just makes more sense on console (Xbox One) due to the existing lack of resolutions on ESO Plus.
-as listed above, the other benefits would benefit from enhancements before the program is seen as valuable as well as resolving the outstanding Xbox One eso plus issues.
At PAX East ZOS publicly confirms that even tho they announced the Xbox One ESO Plus situation was resolved, in-fact, it was not resolved and "they" are still in communication with Xbox. As results, locking features behind a subscription that don't work and that are being marketed and advertised an "optional" for the "same" base game experiences is now even further off from reality.
While the bag makes sense for you and those who want to subscribe (great) but knowing that offering the bag in some other form, at a reduced functionality doesn't negatively impact the value of ESO Plus or profit margins of ZOS, why are people fighting against those who don't see value in ESO Plus?
The whole point of the subscription being removed was because, People in large numbers, did not and still do not see value in a subscription vs just buying
In one post you say it is pay to win in the next you say it isnt worth purchasing. Can you please make up your mind.
@vyndral13preub18_ESO
Do you understand the context of those two?
Pay2Win is how something is described based on how it accessed and how it works.
Value or not worth purchasing is a customers choice specific to a Pay2Win item or feature.
The two work together and are not opposites of each other.
Put into one sentence:
The crafting bag is a Pay2Win "feature/item" that is not worth subscribing to ESO Plus for access to because ESO Plus provides no value.
-EDIT-
Customers who don't see value in ESO Plus want to buy the bag, and due to ESO Plus being of little to no value to those customers, they aren't incentivized to buy something of no value for access to a feature they do like or want.
Case and point, many customers like the presentation of ESO on PC who play on console. There is/was a huge amount of comments and threads to add a feature (text chat) to consoles. Those customers did not see value in buying a PC for the feature. Its exactly the same context.
There was also a huge request for PC customer to have game-pad support. The PC customers didn't see value in buying a console for game-pad access.
ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »This does sound like the case of buyers remorse. If you bought all the DLC's which are expensive. Why did you not just get ESO+. I can understand how you see this as unfair but to expect the devs to accommodate for your regret of spending all that money doesn't seem fair either.
Adding this as a ESO+ only perk is a great incentive to keep steady revenue flow into the game. Which benefits everyone as a whole. And quite frankly if you have the money to blow on all the DLC's and then some more store content. You have the money to buy a sub plan.
I think it's more of a feeling of being scammed by Ubizo$, they sold the B2P model under the advertisement of "no subscription required", naturally one would assume that any perks or extras given for subscribing would also be offered for sale under the B2P model too.
"No subscription required" does not mean that benefits would not be made available to subscribers. You can play the game without a subscription can you not? No scam is in operation here.
Other perks for subscribing or at least an alternative are offered for sale in the crown store are they not?
Yes you have alternatives in game for craft bags. Its called crown bank/bag store upgrade. Ive got like 160 bag on each of my 8 toons and around 170-ish bank slots I think off the top of my head. I just need more space because im a hoarder and still have some v1-v15 gear pieces in game lol. If you are not a hoarder like me, you can easily make do with the allowable bank slots. If anything, you should be arguing for REMOVAL of bank cap. That way you can upgrade to your hearts content. You might get more traction and support even from ESO+ members this way. Begging for the bag is not gona make it happen.. At least in the near future. Devs have been very vocal and clear on that. Their answer to the question about whether craft bag was for ESO+ only was like literally just one word: YES.
I've stated before in earlier threads and polls that I'd be happy with the removal of bank caps.
I don't care either way about the craft bags I was simply putting forth an opinion of how people who were sold the B2P model maybe feeling scammed, if B2P customers are no longer needed then that's fine by me as Ubizo$ obviously no longer need my cash for further development of the game.
I dont get it... When I go to a club to drink and don't get to sit at the VIP table or get free special VIP drinks I don't whine about it... Im happy with just being able to have a good time and buy what my money can get me... That dosent mean the club dosent want my money... It just means they are "encouraging" me to get a VIP membership since I spend a lot of time there anway...
from what I can see you guys are the only ones whining, I've bought all the dlcs and supported the game so why would I subscribe now to rent what I already own?... it would be like the club in your ridiculous analogy selling you a drink then charging you again for the privilige of drinking it.
You're not paying rent on what you already own. You will still own that. You will be paying rent on future content which hasn't been released yet.
Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not a loyalty reward for past behavior, it's an incentive for future behavior.
@ShedsHisTail
Actually we are paying rent for access to something we already own.
see thats the whole point of value for some vs. no-value for others.
-ESO Plus gives
-DLC access
-more exp
-more gold
-reduces research time
-Those of us who buy instead of subscribe'
-own the DLC
-have EXP scrolls or potions
-can still gain gold
-may be done researching
*We are paying to rent something we already own* so that analogy is spot on.*
nimander99 wrote: »Personally I think this is a straight up master stroke of brilliance on the part of whoever came up with this idea at Zenimax, that person need s a bonus!
Everyone is going to sub now, period.
It's not manipulative, it's not sneaky, it's not underhanded, it's business! And smart business at that.
Kudos ZOS on the crafting bags, mad kudos.
And this is coming from someone who has been an active subscriber since June 2014 and purchased the Collector Editions of each DLC.
I respect smart business moves.
I'm not going to sub @nimander99 ... I'm sure there are many others who won't. What's more there will a portion of those players that give up on ESO altogether. People don't like feeling like they are being taken advantage of.
It's a shrewd business move. Smart for the company, not for their customers.
ShedsHisTail wrote: »I totally get that, and I do think the 'right thing' to do would be to compensate players in that situation somehow. The fairest way would require some calculating, but using the DLC you purchased, the time you've played, and the total amount of crowns you spent, a fair reimbursement could be calculated.
Wait... Why?
Why do you, @TheSpin , feel like the right thing to do is compensate non-subs for the past. They chose not to subscribe because they felt the better value was in not subbing. Giving them something now does not change what happened then. They got exactly what they chose to pay for back then.
That be like me saying, "Wait, non-subs get to keep the DLC when they buy it? I've been subbed for months and I'm only renting it, I deserve to own it like they do." I knew what I was paying for, I got the value I expected; just like people who made the opposite choice did.
This isn't a reward for past activity, this is an incentive for -future- activity. This isn't ZOS passing out rewards to subscribers. This is ZOS saying, "Here is a thing you can have if you subscribe."
It's nuanced, but it's different.
If I cancel my subscription today, I don't get a craft bag just because I've been subscribed for the last two years. My past decisions don't factor into this. Neither do those who have chosen not to subscribe to date. If the value has changed for them, then there is nothing stopping them from subscribing.
This isn't a retroactive reward.