Forward Camps / Kagrenac

Docmandu · May 2016

People thought Kagrenac rez speed was bad... now we have Forward Camps to instant rez zerg balls *sigh* .. only 1 baller needs to get some distance to put down the camp, and pop.. entire stack is instantly back.

And to make matters worse.. these things are bugged, as people put down a FC then put caltrops on it so the enemy can't destroy it, as they'll be in-combat due to the caltrop.

Intended?! Doubt it.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

DannyLV702 · May 2016

Well, the caltrops is a tactic. Someone has to be willing to stay at the camp for those vcaltrops to stay up. If you want to burn the camp, you kill the guy with caltrops. If there's a zerg camping out at the camp then that's a harmless zerg if all they're doing is taking care of a camp. I do have mixed feelings about camps though.

Turelus · May 2016

Use a fire ballista then... they were this way before they were removed with the ability to use them from anywhere on the map and no cool down, we survived back then.

Docmandu · May 2016

Turelus wrote: »

Use a fire ballista then... they were this way before they were removed with the ability to use them from anywhere on the map and no cool down, we survived back then.

By the time you can put down a fire ballista, the entire 20 man zerg ball is back. I'm not talking about a tent near a keep.

It's when an organized group uses it... ie 20 sap/bombard/proxy det AoE spamming zerg ball.. couple of them die, 1 gets away puts down the camp and all instantly respawn as they wait to release since they're all in voice chat.

Wouldn't be such an issue if it didn't kill the server every frakkin day when those balls are around.

Turelus · May 2016

So you complaint is that organised groups who use tactics are winning?

If it's near a keep, use the keep wall to fire from.

Lure them out of the camps range and kill them.

Have a Nightblade sneak around and take it down while you draw their attention.

There are loads of counters to this, nothing needs to be changed.

zyk · May 2016

FC gameplay is hideous.

Mako1132 · May 2016

Turelus wrote: »

So you complaint is that organised groups who use tactics are winning?

If it's near a keep, use the keep wall to fire from.

Lure them out of the camps range and kill them.

Have a Nightblade sneak around and take it down while you draw their attention.

There are loads of counters to this, nothing needs to be changed.

Basically this. The enemy group isn't always waiting for it, or if they are sometimes it doesn't show up on the map to res at for a couple of seconds.

Also, the caltrops is not a bug and I don't know why you would think that it is. It's Siege 101 stuff. The siege burn cast is interrupted when you take damage, and caltrops does damage. Nothing to do with being in combat or not.

Zheg · May 2016

As someone that plays in an organized group, FCs have been disastrous for map play. Not only can the entire group get up in a single second, but they can do so again 2 minutes later. The timer is WAY too short. The fact that you rez with full stats while the victors that just killed you are likely at 20% stamina trying to move out of the bombard spam is moronic.

The benefits that some people love (extending farms, duels, never ending fights) do not outweigh the negatives.

Ghost-Shot · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

As someone that plays in an organized group, FCs have been disastrous for map play. Not only can the entire group get up in a single second, but they can do so again 2 minutes later. The timer is WAY too short. The fact that you rez with full stats while the victors that just killed you are likely at 20% stamina trying to move out of the bombard spam is moronic.

The benefits that some people love (extending farms, duels, never ending fights) do not outweigh the negatives.

WTB 10 minute cooldown(at least) and res sickness from camps

Hyssia · May 2016

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Well, the caltrops is a tactic. Someone has to be willing to stay at the camp for those vcaltrops to stay up. If you want to burn the camp, you kill the guy with caltrops. If there's a zerg camping out at the camp then that's a harmless zerg if all they're doing is taking care of a camp. I do have mixed feelings about camps though.

WHAT A LOSS!

Now they're only 47, instead of having their 48th caltrops/steel tornado leecher.

Back to the drawing board, guys

Docmandu · May 2016

Turelus wrote: »

So you complaint is that organised groups who use tactics are winning?

If it's near a keep, use the keep wall to fire from.

Lure them out of the camps range and kill them.

Have a Nightblade sneak around and take it down while you draw their attention.

There are loads of counters to this, nothing needs to be changed.

So.. you people bitched about when a templar maxed in Alliance skill to get the speedier rez passive (when AP gained wasn't buffed) and used a specific set .. could rez 1 person in 1 second.. but somehow there's no problem at all if now anyone can drop down a FC in 1 second and rez 20 people instantly with full stats... and to top it of, you can't stop it if 1s later caltrops are thrown on it.

NERF TEMPLARS!

MLRPZ · May 2016

If your forum name match your ingame name, then I think your zerg (AKA 80 solo players at the same place) is also responsible of the lag, and not only the ball group that farmed you =/

#chalmangate4life

Rylana · May 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As someone that plays in an organized group, FCs have been disastrous for map play. Not only can the entire group get up in a single second, but they can do so again 2 minutes later. The timer is WAY too short. The fact that you rez with full stats while the victors that just killed you are likely at 20% stamina trying to move out of the bombard spam is moronic.

The benefits that some people love (extending farms, duels, never ending fights) do not outweigh the negatives.

WTB 10 minute cooldown(at least) and res sickness from camps

This, I am completely sick of losing defended keeps vs hordes of AD zergers spamming 10+ camps to take BRK with sheer force of numbers. The AP is great sure, but it cant be defended, the defenders just eventually get zerged down.

More importantly though, how the hell are people able to afford 200k+ AP a fight worth of camps, when its unlikely they got even 10k total from the battle back?

The-Baconator · May 2016

Honestly I wouldn't mind if they completely removed the area restriction and upped the timer to at least 5 minutes or so. The ability to constantly be in action is nice but its not worth all of the trouble they bring as a result of such a low timer. FCs combined with the new siege + decreased mitigation has lead to some of the longest, boring, and laggy stalemates I've ever witnessed.

Turelus · May 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

So you complaint is that organised groups who use tactics are winning?

If it's near a keep, use the keep wall to fire from.

Lure them out of the camps range and kill them.

Have a Nightblade sneak around and take it down while you draw their attention.

There are loads of counters to this, nothing needs to be changed.

So.. you people bitched about when a templar maxed in Alliance skill to get the speedier rez passive (when AP gained wasn't buffed) and used a specific set .. could rez 1 person in 1 second.. but somehow there's no problem at all if now anyone can drop down a FC in 1 second and rez 20 people instantly with full stats... and to top it of, you can't stop it if 1s later caltrops are thrown on it.

NERF TEMPLARS!

Pretty sure I didn't complain about that, it was obviously not working as intended and would be fixed.

I have no problem with camps because there are many counters to it, we have listed some, you refuse to accept them.

Docmandu · May 2016

MLRPZ wrote: »

If your forum name match your ingame name, then I think your zerg (AKA 80 solo players at the same place) is also responsible of the lag, and not only the ball group that farmed you =/

#chalmangate4life

Yesterday AD was fighting DC.. probably some 100 people in total.. everything was performing dandy. Half an our later, banana lag appears and inc 700+ ms ping. Now.. that might just be all the people chasing you guys or your ball itself causing it.. all I know is when you guys ball up and run around, the rest of the server suffers huge latency spikes.

I have nothing against your playstyle (play as you like)..

But.. this is not about that.. this is about FCs and you have to admit that the way you can use it is rather silly. Before camps, if you died, there was a penalty, ie. the penalty was time to get back into the action. With camps, there is no penalty at all.. you insta rez with 100% combat readiness and full resources .. which is something I'm against.. death should mean something.

It works as a cheap/ super fast 20 person 100% AoE rez, with nothing you can do about it, unless succeed in interrupting the person putting down the camp.

IMHO a possible solution would be that taking a rez at a FC would not give you 100% magicka/stamina/health.. or would put an unpurgeable efficiency debuff on you for 20 seconds.

Having a longer deploy time wouldn't be such a bad idea either.

Valencer · May 2016

Forward camps really just promote bad play. Outnumbered keep defenses succumb eventually because the attackers just end up crushing you with sheer numbers while you cant get a forward camp of your own up because theyre all over the keep.

They made proxi trains easier to wipe out with the rapids/barrier/purge changes but then also gave them forward camps to instantly respawn the whole group at full resources. It's just starting to become silly, really.

holosoul · May 2016

Valencer wrote: »

Forward camps really just promote bad play. Outnumbered keep defenses succumb eventually because the attackers just end up crushing you with sheer numbers while you cant get a forward camp of your own up because theyre all over the keep.

They made proxi trains easier to wipe out with the rapids/barrier/purge changes but then also gave them forward camps to instantly respawn the whole group at full resources. It's just starting to become silly, really.

You can put FCs inside of keeps you own

Valencer · May 2016

Easier said than done in situations where the attackers outnumber you 2 to 1 or worse. They'll be all over the courtyard/keep while you need every able man/woman to defend the breach.

Reevster · May 2016

Camps dont last long enough imo, and cost way too much, maybe 5k ap would be more reasonable and last twice as long.

Ishammael · May 2016

I would accept the re-removal of FCs if there were more objectives (or richer) between keeps. The Cyrodiil map is huge... but there are only a few objectives. Need more to spread the population out.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

I would accept the re-removal of FCs if there were more objectives (or richer) between keeps. The Cyrodiil map is huge... but there are only a few objectives. Need more to spread the population out.

^ This man gets it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 2016

Camps should take longer to place imo like 10s+ where you can be interrupted. Only change which is needed.

Zheg · May 2016

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Camps should take longer to place imo like 10s+ where you can be interrupted. Only change which is needed.

That will likely make it even easier for the side with far more numbers to have access to camps, and the side with fewer to have reduced access.

bowmanz607 · May 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

People thought Kagrenac rez speed was bad... now we have Forward Camps to instant rez zerg balls *sigh* .. only 1 baller needs to get some distance to put down the camp, and pop.. entire stack is instantly back.

And to make matters worse.. these things are bugged, as people put down a FC then put caltrops on it so the enemy can't destroy it, as they'll be in-combat due to the caltrop.

Intended?! Doubt it.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Much better than playing a horse simultor. Also, adds an extra layer to combat and strategy cause you have to coordinate to find and take down the camp while scouting to male sure no more pop up.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Camps should take longer to place imo like 10s+ where you can be interrupted. Only change which is needed.

That will likely make it even easier for the side with far more numbers to have access to camps, and the side with fewer to have reduced access.

It wouldn't.

Currently if a zerg comes along they can simply place a camp whenever they want to res their allies. You can't stop it at all because it's near impossible to interrupt the player inside their zerg in time.

I've had camps be placed literally next to my group by zergs we have been fighting at which point they all res because you can't burn it due to damage.

If there was an increased cast time (which could only be done out of stealth) or which was interrupted by damage taken -much in the way burning a camp is interrupted. It would be far better for smaller groups to control the area around them.

Zheg · May 2016

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Camps should take longer to place imo like 10s+ where you can be interrupted. Only change which is needed.

That will likely make it even easier for the side with far more numbers to have access to camps, and the side with fewer to have reduced access.

It wouldn't.

Currently if a zerg comes along they can simply place a camp whenever they want to res their allies. You can't stop it at all because it's near impossible to interrupt the player inside their zerg in time.

I've had camps be placed literally next to my group by zergs we have been fighting at which point they all res because you can't burn it due to damage.

If there was an increased cast time (which could only be done out of stealth) or which was interrupted by damage taken -much in the way burning a camp is interrupted. It would be far better for smaller groups to control the area around them.

Picture a keep battle where you have 3-4 times your numbers assaulting it, there's no way you can stop them from putting down a camp. The outnumbered defenders have an even harder time putting a camp down with that timer once the assaulters are on the inner.

Camps just need to go, they never should have been reintroduced in the first place. I remember at launch thinking they were helpful because of how big the map was, but once you get max speed horses and rapids unlocked one of the camp's original purposes is made obsolete. All it does is serve to prolong laggy zerg fights, and I'm sorry, but I could care less about extending a farm in a field as you kite pugs around - it's frequently cited as a benefit for camps and I hardly see how that outweighs all of the problems they cause.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Camps should take longer to place imo like 10s+ where you can be interrupted. Only change which is needed.

That will likely make it even easier for the side with far more numbers to have access to camps, and the side with fewer to have reduced access.

It wouldn't.

Currently if a zerg comes along they can simply place a camp whenever they want to res their allies. You can't stop it at all because it's near impossible to interrupt the player inside their zerg in time.

I've had camps be placed literally next to my group by zergs we have been fighting at which point they all res because you can't burn it due to damage.

If there was an increased cast time (which could only be done out of stealth) or which was interrupted by damage taken -much in the way burning a camp is interrupted. It would be far better for smaller groups to control the area around them.

Picture a keep battle where you have 3-4 times your numbers assaulting it, there's no way you can stop them from putting down a camp. The outnumbered defenders have an even harder time putting a camp down with that timer once the assaulters are on the inner.

Camps just need to go, they never should have been reintroduced in the first place. I remember at launch thinking they were helpful because of how big the map was, but once you get max speed horses and rapids unlocked one of the camp's original purposes is made obsolete. All it does is serve to prolong laggy zerg fights, and I'm sorry, but I could care less about extending a farm in a field as you kite pugs around - it's frequently cited as a benefit for camps and I hardly see how that outweighs all of the problems they cause.

Sure you could stop them placing. There are only certain places camps can be placed on a keep attack. One nb in stealth could lock down a position with a cast time so long. Where as whilst the same could be true of an attacking force its harder to lock down this as camps can be placed almost anywhere by the defending side.

The game got worse since camps were removed initially. They used to spread out combat to different parts of the map because you could blood port to them. Now they prolong fights. But it's still more interesting than 24/7 bridge fight.
I remember at the beginning when camps quite often bugged and couldn't be placed back up for 1h after use. This was the best time of camps.

They should last until destroyed but once destroyed cannot be placed again for a long period of time. (30m for example)

Dyride · May 2016

Rezzing at a camp should respawn with 50% health/magicka/stam resources.

Telel · May 2016

Rylana wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As someone that plays in an organized group, FCs have been disastrous for map play. Not only can the entire group get up in a single second, but they can do so again 2 minutes later. The timer is WAY too short. The fact that you rez with full stats while the victors that just killed you are likely at 20% stamina trying to move out of the bombard spam is moronic.

The benefits that some people love (extending farms, duels, never ending fights) do not outweigh the negatives.

WTB 10 minute cooldown(at least) and res sickness from camps

This, I am completely sick of losing defended keeps vs hordes of AD zergers spamming 10+ camps to take BRK with sheer force of numbers. The AP is great sure, but it cant be defended, the defenders just eventually get zerged down.

More importantly though, how the hell are people able to afford 200k+ AP a fight worth of camps, when its unlikely they got even 10k total from the battle back?

https://youtu.be/OwKDMLQDBqE

Apparently the answer is they spam prox det until they get bored with being wiped out by a PUG.

Zheg · May 2016

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Camps should take longer to place imo like 10s+ where you can be interrupted. Only change which is needed.

That will likely make it even easier for the side with far more numbers to have access to camps, and the side with fewer to have reduced access.

It wouldn't.

Currently if a zerg comes along they can simply place a camp whenever they want to res their allies. You can't stop it at all because it's near impossible to interrupt the player inside their zerg in time.

I've had camps be placed literally next to my group by zergs we have been fighting at which point they all res because you can't burn it due to damage.

If there was an increased cast time (which could only be done out of stealth) or which was interrupted by damage taken -much in the way burning a camp is interrupted. It would be far better for smaller groups to control the area around them.

Picture a keep battle where you have 3-4 times your numbers assaulting it, there's no way you can stop them from putting down a camp. The outnumbered defenders have an even harder time putting a camp down with that timer once the assaulters are on the inner.

Camps just need to go, they never should have been reintroduced in the first place. I remember at launch thinking they were helpful because of how big the map was, but once you get max speed horses and rapids unlocked one of the camp's original purposes is made obsolete. All it does is serve to prolong laggy zerg fights, and I'm sorry, but I could care less about extending a farm in a field as you kite pugs around - it's frequently cited as a benefit for camps and I hardly see how that outweighs all of the problems they cause.

Sure you could stop them placing. There are only certain places camps can be placed on a keep attack. One nb in stealth could lock down a position with a cast time so long. Where as whilst the same could be true of an attacking force its harder to lock down this as camps can be placed almost anywhere by the defending side.

The game got worse since camps were removed initially. They used to spread out combat to different parts of the map because you could blood port to them. Now they prolong fights. But it's still more interesting than 24/7 bridge fight.
I remember at the beginning when camps quite often bugged and couldn't be placed back up for 1h after use. This was the best time of camps.

They should last until destroyed but once destroyed cannot be placed again for a long period of time. (30m for example)

We no longer play in the same meta, nor have the same populations. Forward camps have now had 2 months to demonstrate that they do anything BUT spread people out. It doesn't matter if I light up a second keep, the red force wont respond until they're done at whatever objective they're all at first.

And no, a nb cannot lock down the 'few' spots camps can be placed outside of keeps because one nb cannot cover that much distance. You also really can't spare people if you're heavily outnumbered. This point reminded me of frozn's vampire ninja assassins that were supposed to hunt down enemy countersiege.