A new take on Roles
Narnor
✭✭
First off, i love ESO and it has been my Nr. 1 MMO in a long time now. I only post this to see if it could make the game even better!
As a frequent lurker on these forums, i have seen alot of Tanks getting sour with the recent nerfs of dungeons. It is understandable, since when a group with 3 DPS and 1 healer can do veteran content with little to no trouble, the tank as a role is dead (the same applies to untauntable trials). They feel not needed and with no impact and place in some dungeon runs (they need to fill "other roles" like dps or healer)
On the other spectrum, we have alot of people with what i would call "DPS mentality" this mentality revolves around two premises.
1: I will, nummerically, reach the highest amount of damage per second (DPS)
2: The damage done is based mostly (if not solely) on my charecters output.
Now, i will not say it is bad to play this way (i myself enjoy number crunching) however, the problem as i see it lays in the second premise, the way we mostly view DPS as an "individuel" rather than "group" effort (this can be seen in alot of people wanting to "check" each others DPS through addons and describing their dps build as "upto 15k DPS" or similar).
In short, a focus on the individuel rather than the group, in group orriented Content (dungeons and PvP)!
Also, the DPS takes the tanks role, because a tanks job is to reduce damage dealt to the group, but a dead opponent (through dps) is the best damage mitigation technique! So, a tank is expendable in low to medium difficulty dungeons, but a DPS is always relevant no matter the difficulty!
I have thought of this for a while, and come to an non-traditionel solution.
Erase the DPS Roll.
Now, before a rebellion wants my soul thrown into coldharbour, hear me out!
If we look at DPS, who doesnt want it?
When the tank is tanky enough, she DPS,
When the healer has healed enough, he DPS
Everyone wants to DPS!
Only the DPS doesnt want to heal or tank!
So, i suggest 4 roles, with clearly defined areas, which will set a focus on group play rather than singular DPS and will make it easier for new players to understand what to do.
The 4 roles are Healer, Controller, Executioner & Tank.
The Healers roll doesnt change much. The healers focus is defensive buffs and (of course) heals
The Controller focusses on buffs that increase group DPS & on dealing AoE damage.
This is different from DPS, since it focuses on group buffs and specifik forms of damage (AoE)
The Executioner focusses on debuffs that reduce the enemies defences & killing low hp targets.
This roll is different from pure dps, since the focus Again is on debuffing the enemy, which benefits the whole group! And the "kill low hp target" is as described before, just another form of damage mitigation.
The tank is also more or less the same. Debuffing enemies offences and making sure the tank takes the hits (damage mitigation).
The only difference i wouæd personalky like to cement this role change more, is an introduction with "soft" and "hard" taunts.
Hard taunts is the taunts we have now (forced 15 sek atk on tank) while soft taunts could be a %dmg reduction on attacks on eeveryone exept the tank (should of course be balanced such as hard taunt is better than soft taunt always). This soft taunt could then be used in AoE and make the tank PvP viable (granting a taunt but with no forced feature)
These roles would give some benefits.
1. Noone has to be "DPS scared". Everyone gets a roll which either lower or negate enemy dps or bolster ones own dps. In short, more clearly defined borders between roles where everyone is supposed to deal damage, in varying degrees.
2. The focus will be on group output rather than individuel output, perhaps giving larger emphasy on helping and supporting each other.
3. No major change to content. Dungeons and trials are already group centric, pvp is mostly zerg based. Groups are already made of 4.
4. This would give ESO another edge in the world of MMOs with a system unique (as far as i know) where "DPS" as an individuel roll is gone for good and where DPS is seen as a job everyone wants (and where everyone boosts it)
Of course that is my dream of this idea. Alot of negative things this could produce is
1. It needs a total rebalancing and change of skills which takes time and playtesting. As of now, there is probably far more urgent matters (PvP lag...)
2. A focus on group rather than individuel could dissuade alot of singleplayer minded individuels. It should of course still be possible to solo,, but bad balancing could make this a problem.
There could be more issues, which you ofcourse must write in the comments :-)
So, do i see this idea implemented in ESO? Absolutely. Do i see it implemented in a Year? Probably not.
I feel this particulqr take on roles give it more of an unique and ESO feel, but it would of course take alot of recourses to implement.
So, as of now, i just write this to see how you, as a community, respond to this idea!
Edited by Narnor on May 22, 2016 3:55PM As a frequent lurker on these forums, i have seen alot of Tanks getting sour with the recent nerfs of dungeons. It is understandable, since when a group with 3 DPS and 1 healer can do veteran content with little to no trouble, the tank as a role is dead (the same applies to untauntable trials). They feel not needed and with no impact and place in some dungeon runs (they need to fill "other roles" like dps or healer)
On the other spectrum, we have alot of people with what i would call "DPS mentality" this mentality revolves around two premises.
1: I will, nummerically, reach the highest amount of damage per second (DPS)
2: The damage done is based mostly (if not solely) on my charecters output.
Now, i will not say it is bad to play this way (i myself enjoy number crunching) however, the problem as i see it lays in the second premise, the way we mostly view DPS as an "individuel" rather than "group" effort (this can be seen in alot of people wanting to "check" each others DPS through addons and describing their dps build as "upto 15k DPS" or similar).
In short, a focus on the individuel rather than the group, in group orriented Content (dungeons and PvP)!
Also, the DPS takes the tanks role, because a tanks job is to reduce damage dealt to the group, but a dead opponent (through dps) is the best damage mitigation technique! So, a tank is expendable in low to medium difficulty dungeons, but a DPS is always relevant no matter the difficulty!
I have thought of this for a while, and come to an non-traditionel solution.
Erase the DPS Roll.
Now, before a rebellion wants my soul thrown into coldharbour, hear me out!
If we look at DPS, who doesnt want it?
When the tank is tanky enough, she DPS,
When the healer has healed enough, he DPS
Everyone wants to DPS!
Only the DPS doesnt want to heal or tank!
So, i suggest 4 roles, with clearly defined areas, which will set a focus on group play rather than singular DPS and will make it easier for new players to understand what to do.
The 4 roles are Healer, Controller, Executioner & Tank.
The Healers roll doesnt change much. The healers focus is defensive buffs and (of course) heals
The Controller focusses on buffs that increase group DPS & on dealing AoE damage.
This is different from DPS, since it focuses on group buffs and specifik forms of damage (AoE)
The Executioner focusses on debuffs that reduce the enemies defences & killing low hp targets.
This roll is different from pure dps, since the focus Again is on debuffing the enemy, which benefits the whole group! And the "kill low hp target" is as described before, just another form of damage mitigation.
The tank is also more or less the same. Debuffing enemies offences and making sure the tank takes the hits (damage mitigation).
The only difference i wouæd personalky like to cement this role change more, is an introduction with "soft" and "hard" taunts.
Hard taunts is the taunts we have now (forced 15 sek atk on tank) while soft taunts could be a %dmg reduction on attacks on eeveryone exept the tank (should of course be balanced such as hard taunt is better than soft taunt always). This soft taunt could then be used in AoE and make the tank PvP viable (granting a taunt but with no forced feature)
These roles would give some benefits.
1. Noone has to be "DPS scared". Everyone gets a roll which either lower or negate enemy dps or bolster ones own dps. In short, more clearly defined borders between roles where everyone is supposed to deal damage, in varying degrees.
2. The focus will be on group output rather than individuel output, perhaps giving larger emphasy on helping and supporting each other.
3. No major change to content. Dungeons and trials are already group centric, pvp is mostly zerg based. Groups are already made of 4.
4. This would give ESO another edge in the world of MMOs with a system unique (as far as i know) where "DPS" as an individuel roll is gone for good and where DPS is seen as a job everyone wants (and where everyone boosts it)
Of course that is my dream of this idea. Alot of negative things this could produce is
1. It needs a total rebalancing and change of skills which takes time and playtesting. As of now, there is probably far more urgent matters (PvP lag...)
2. A focus on group rather than individuel could dissuade alot of singleplayer minded individuels. It should of course still be possible to solo,, but bad balancing could make this a problem.
There could be more issues, which you ofcourse must write in the comments :-)
So, do i see this idea implemented in ESO? Absolutely. Do i see it implemented in a Year? Probably not.
I feel this particulqr take on roles give it more of an unique and ESO feel, but it would of course take alot of recourses to implement.
So, as of now, i just write this to see how you, as a community, respond to this idea!
1
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Humatiel✭✭✭✭You're failing to realize one overwhelming point, a great deal of players would simply stop playing if your design was implemented. This is a game and one should not forget to keep in mind that walking away is an option.VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
700+ CP
GM of Luxury Raids1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're failing to realize one overwhelming point, a great deal of players would simply stop playing if your design was implemented. This is a game and one should not forget to keep in mind that walking away is an option.
Indeed, op fails to acknowledge that many DPS are DPS because they want no responsibility. Trying to force responsibility will just get them to
lie or not participate at all.2 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stopped after healer, controller, executioner, and tank.
Listen I understand what the op is trying to convey, more defined roles and a system where a tank can actually provide a meaningful contribution to a group.
Alot of players hate the notion of an enforced trinity in this game but the reality is that it is desperately needed and Zos has taken measures time and time again with updates to suggests they feel the same way.
Just because you can peice together any build you would want and play any role as any class doesn't mean a trinity should not exist. It simply means the options are there for the players when the time comes.
Having some ridiculous 4 way role select will only serve to complicate matters, group content just needs to be redesigned going forward and maybe a few alterations to skills that would benefit tanking. Because that is really the crux of the issue at the core, the devs can't create group content that requires specific utilities since due to the free form nature of the skill system it would be impossible to make an encounter where long term CC would be required on one or 2 targets, because there is a very real chance the group won't have agony, petrify etc etc. it's a hamstring on zos' end, and they have to tie a group content challenge to machanics that don't acknowledge particular skills.
For this reason alone, tanking in the current game will NEVER exceed popping a defensive skill and using a single target taunt (I'm oversimplifying of course but that is the fundamental core of it). And when everyone has access to defensive skills, stam heal skills, class based magicka heals, and resto staff (the later 2 hardly impacting a magicka builds dps ability) the tank role does indeed start to feel redundant.
An extreme solution that might work is to actually buff particular aspects of Heavy Armor passives in the mitigation department and crank up the output in the boss damage department. Buffing heavy in the offensive area like what is happening in DB is a bad idea for pve and a great one for pvp.
No we don't need some overly complicated 4 way role makeup, they just need to retune certain areas of incoming damage from boss encounters, and shifting the heavy armor passives far into the mitigation end of and away from the offensive abilites so you need HA to even hope to survive a boss wailing on you and as a dps wouldn't think for a second to wear it as it would plummet your damage output.
Of course this option will penalize tanks in all non group end game activities, which relates to the issue of dps being emphasized in 90 percent of this games content/activities. But that is another can of worms entirely.Edited by exeeter702 on May 22, 2016 6:15PM1 -
Lenikus✭✭✭✭✭The new roles you mentioned already exist.
Good tanks deal decent debuffs, and helps the damage.
Good healers use that siphon spirit from resto and/or elemental drain.
Good DpS already execute and most dots they apply count as further debuffs.
The mechanics you want to implement will simply FORCE everyone to have a 'group centric' build, instead of one easy specific role.
It will change NO advanced gameplay, and HINDER casuals with complicated skills tooltips to read.... Mai cave. >:33 -
Humatiel✭✭✭✭You're failing to realize one overwhelming point, a great deal of players would simply stop playing if your design was implemented. This is a game and one should not forget to keep in mind that walking away is an option.
Indeed, op fails to acknowledge that many DPS are DPS because they want no responsibility. Trying to force responsibility will just get them to
lie or not participate at all.
It's almost like we're discussing casuals playing a game...god how can they be so selfish and not want responsibility of action in a PuG.VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
700+ CP
GM of Luxury Raids0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭While the OP was challenging to follow I did pick up he is advocating a complete redesign of ESO making it into a very different game.
NO. Absolutely not and fortunately Zos will not give this a second thought. The role idea is not needed and just a waste of time to redesign classes and skills to accommodate it.0