Only 2 Attacks for Sorcs? Am I missing something?

FriedEggSandwich · May 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

A sorcerer works with buffs, skill, and timing.
Once you realise how all the pieces click together, you don't really need any spammable move.

Um... so then we all gotta run the same bars? Sure I could just slot another ward in it's place, but I do like a slim line of variety...

Also, I'd like to not rely on spamming ward to proc frag. Spamming any other sorc moves re-starts their timer, effectively destroying the purpose of said move.

Edit: Buffs? You mean the buff a potion can provide? Or the 5k resist buff? Those huge awesome buffs? Lol ok

I spam surge in stealth if I need to proc a frag, and I use wrath during a fight if I need to proc one and they're out of streak range and curse is mid-timer. Not suggesting you do the same, but these don't have the timers you mentioned, and they're pretty cheap. For pvp I would rather sorcs got some defensive love than more damage, like a nice juicy hot like vigor. Sorcs actually still have some choice when it comes to offensive skills, it's the defensive ones that have diminished.

Fwiw the only skill that I slot in pvp that isn't a sorc skill is combat prayer, my point is I still carry a fire staff for the up to 10k heavy attacks that you can just throw at anyone between every skill without reducing the frequency of skill use. If you're not a big fan of the destro staff skills then you don't have to use any; pvp is still possible without crushing shock. But you will always be better off carrying a staff cos the only other weapon capable of ranged light and heavy attacks is a bow. If you don't want to be pigeon-holed into carrying a staff then go stam sorc until zos introduce a ranged weapon that isn't a staff.

But I sense that this thread is about dual wield, so you won't like anything I just said. Zos won't give sorcs a ranged surprise attack, not while frags and curse exist, and I don't get why sorcs choose to give up 10k heavy attacks in favour of dual wield, so I don't have any suggestions to improve that play-style. A 10k heavy attack is almost a ranged surprise attack. Light and heavy attacks are direct damage spammable attacks and are completely free, some are undodgeable. If you can't light/heavy attack then you will always be one gcd less than anyone who can, your attacks will always be 50% less frequent, and you will forever be without weapon enchant procs. If you're not that bothered about using light and heavy attacks in pvp then why be dissatisfied with dual wield? Is it cos zos essentially just buffed light and heavy attacks by buffing weapon enchants and introducing poisons?

Waffennacht · May 2016

Hrm I wanted to stay on the broader topic of the limited moves. However, sure I'll go into my own specifics, as with each post I already am.

I duel and smallscale preferably. I have used many many different styles, and builds.

Many many work, only a few work in against the top 5% however.

Only 2 really.

I do use Resto staff as a primary form of attack in many builds (deals more damage than lightning staff heavy) even in my current build.

Current build even runs wrath as the proc mechanic (even tho webs works better but im prepin for db) so I'm actually already set.

Pets was what I originally tried, even going down to just matriarch or familiar for dps or heals. The heal is viable and it is nice to have it on each bar, however if she is killed you can get in real trouble.

The familiar (or clannfear) has horrid dps in PvP, and no matter how I try my pets or pet builds are not able to beat the same opponents I can beat without them.

What I want isn't anything in particular other than a slight variety in the over 50 abilities other than 2 choices. Seems pretty legit. And Maybe an attack that'll hit beyond 2k without crit.

Oh and most of our CC moves provide immunity to each other, and usually come with such a small time of stun that to use several is pointless.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

It occurs to me suddenly that the game design behind Sorcerer is that they are the best at using out of class skills. It is something I've always known, but it never occurred to me that it was the main build philosophy. What do I mean by this? The class has great self regeneration, even better than Nightblades. It has the best cost reduction of any class, on ultimates and skills. I have a gut feeling this is why the class skills are mostly utility. Your topic brought up the issue of utility and it clicked with me when you said pigeonholed. I had this voila moment where I said, THAT"S IT! Sorcerers are defined by their weapons more than other classes for this very reason. I know its not adding a lot to the discussion, but I think this is as much part of the design philosophy of the Sorc as the 'House' is part of Templar design.

PurifedBladez · May 2016

I have this feeling like sorcs will be fine pvp atleast.

starkerealm · May 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

It occurs to me suddenly that the game design behind Sorcerer is that they are the best at using out of class skills. It is something I've always known, but it never occurred to me that it was the main build philosophy. What do I mean by this? The class has great self regeneration, even better than Nightblades. It has the best cost reduction of any class, on ultimates and skills. I have a gut feeling this is why the class skills are mostly utility. Your topic brought up the issue of utility and it clicked with me when you said pigeonholed. I had this voila moment where I said, THAT"S IT! Sorcerers are defined by their weapons more than other classes for this very reason. I know its not adding a lot to the discussion, but I think this is as much part of the design philosophy of the Sorc as the 'House' is part of Templar design.

More than that, look at the bottom passive under Stormcaller. Can you imagine any other class getting a raw self-synergy like that? The closest you'll usually see are other skills in the same skill line.

FriedEggSandwich · May 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

It occurs to me suddenly that the game design behind Sorcerer is that they are the best at using out of class skills. It is something I've always known, but it never occurred to me that it was the main build philosophy. What do I mean by this? The class has great self regeneration, even better than Nightblades. It has the best cost reduction of any class, on ultimates and skills. I have a gut feeling this is why the class skills are mostly utility. Your topic brought up the issue of utility and it clicked with me when you said pigeonholed. I had this voila moment where I said, THAT"S IT! Sorcerers are defined by their weapons more than other classes for this very reason. I know its not adding a lot to the discussion, but I think this is as much part of the design philosophy of the Sorc as the 'House' is part of Templar design.

More than that, look at the bottom passive under Stormcaller. Can you imagine any other class getting a raw self-synergy like that? The closest you'll usually see are other skills in the same skill line.

Yeah how are sorcs designed to be the best at using out-of-class skills when one of their passives encourages them to use sorc skills? Like I said before; I run a 95% sorc skill build in pvp and it's strong. Pvp is where sorcs can get away with using more sorc skills.

Waffennacht · May 2016

I think you guys are misunderstanding the point.

It's not "sorcerers suck!" Or "they are nerfing me!" Or anything like that.

As I said there are about 2 very effective builds of sorcs. But even they share 90% the same moves.

Im just wondering about variety and why does stam get so much of it while magicka got burned?

(I honestly thought with the guilds going stam they would make a few stam, magicka... did they?)

starkerealm · May 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

It occurs to me suddenly that the game design behind Sorcerer is that they are the best at using out of class skills. It is something I've always known, but it never occurred to me that it was the main build philosophy. What do I mean by this? The class has great self regeneration, even better than Nightblades. It has the best cost reduction of any class, on ultimates and skills. I have a gut feeling this is why the class skills are mostly utility. Your topic brought up the issue of utility and it clicked with me when you said pigeonholed. I had this voila moment where I said, THAT"S IT! Sorcerers are defined by their weapons more than other classes for this very reason. I know its not adding a lot to the discussion, but I think this is as much part of the design philosophy of the Sorc as the 'House' is part of Templar design.

More than that, look at the bottom passive under Stormcaller. Can you imagine any other class getting a raw self-synergy like that? The closest you'll usually see are other skills in the same skill line.

Yeah how are sorcs designed to be the best at using out-of-class skills when one of their passives encourages them to use sorc skills? Like I said before; I run a 95% sorc skill build in pvp and it's strong. Pvp is where sorcs can get away with using more sorc skills.

Exactly. It's interesting that the only "pure" sorc skill build for PvE is the old pet togglemancer.

I realize that hybrid builds are a dirty phrase in some corners, but it is another place where sorcs really shine. I've got a PvE vampire DW that's using primarily weapon skills, but stuff like Dark Deal and Streak add some really nice options that wouldn't be available otherwise.

STEVIL · May 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Streak does straight up aoe dmg plus reposition (danged mudcrabs)
Also pets if used make attacks.

But while i DO support adding an attack skill into DM (imo self-centered aoe) i dont think its needed to have every class have any one element.

With sorcs ability to heal-buff ANY weapon or guild attack skill using surge, lacks in their core skills make sense.

I mean, wrecking surge spam doesnt suck, right?

Doesn't it as a heal? It's (stam version) 50% of total damage (if crit dmg is horrid). You face an opponent with the 15k resist and impen. Your (wb is gonna not be as good after nerf) attack whatever it is. Does 17k, so really 8.5k pvp, then impen and resist makes it what a 4kish hit meaning you heal for 2-3k at best per sec?

Blessing of restoration is far superior a heal

Uhhh yes and it also really sucks as a gap closer.

Wrecking blow is not a hesl. Its a damned good offensive move.

Wrecking Surge is all that and a good heal, not a grest one, except in some cases where it might only be annok heal.

But, imo, any heal you proc by knocking the crap outta an enemy with your favorite attack is a good heal.

starkerealm · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Streak does straight up aoe dmg plus reposition (danged mudcrabs)
Also pets if used make attacks.

But while i DO support adding an attack skill into DM (imo self-centered aoe) i dont think its needed to have every class have any one element.

With sorcs ability to heal-buff ANY weapon or guild attack skill using surge, lacks in their core skills make sense.

I mean, wrecking surge spam doesnt suck, right?

Doesn't it as a heal? It's (stam version) 50% of total damage (if crit dmg is horrid). You face an opponent with the 15k resist and impen. Your (wb is gonna not be as good after nerf) attack whatever it is. Does 17k, so really 8.5k pvp, then impen and resist makes it what a 4kish hit meaning you heal for 2-3k at best per sec?

Blessing of restoration is far superior a heal

Uhhh yes and it also really sucks as a gap closer.

Wrecking blow is not a hesl. Its a damned good offensive move.

Wrecking Surge is all that and a good heal, not a grest one, except in some cases where it might only be annok heal.

But, imo, any heal you proc by knocking the crap outta an enemy with your favorite attack is a good heal.

If you're just looking for a self heal on a sorc these days, you're better off with dark exchange or a clanfear. Surge is still good for the damage buff, but it was never a particularly good heal.

starkerealm · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

But while i DO support adding an attack skill into DM (imo self-centered aoe) i dont think its needed to have every class have any one element.

The problem with a spammable DM attack would be Blood Magic. That's the main reason the only attack has a long warm up, and the rest of the tree is utility.

FriedEggSandwich · May 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I think you guys are misunderstanding the point.

It's not "sorcerers suck!" Or "they are nerfing me!" Or anything like that.

As I said there are about 2 very effective builds of sorcs. But even they share 90% the same moves.

Im just wondering about variety and why does stam get so much of it while magicka got burned?

(I honestly thought with the guilds going stam they would make a few stam, magicka... did they?)

Pets are why sorcs have less variety; if most sorcs refuse to use them it rules out half a skill line. Pets are part of the sorc variety unfortunately; they are the alternative to the burst builds. I refuse to use pets because I don't want to micro-manage AI in open world pvp, not much zos can do to change that without deleting pets.

Emma_Overload · May 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Look at everyone hating on stamina users now.

You guys realize that three months ago, you know, the period of time in which they overhauled magicka skills, everyone was whining about how this is Elder Mages Online. Just relax people.

Those complainers were wrong, though. Stamblades were the OP kings of PvP back then, just like they are now.

STEVIL · May 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Streak does straight up aoe dmg plus reposition (danged mudcrabs)
Also pets if used make attacks.

But while i DO support adding an attack skill into DM (imo self-centered aoe) i dont think its needed to have every class have any one element.

With sorcs ability to heal-buff ANY weapon or guild attack skill using surge, lacks in their core skills make sense.

I mean, wrecking surge spam doesnt suck, right?

Doesn't it as a heal? It's (stam version) 50% of total damage (if crit dmg is horrid). You face an opponent with the 15k resist and impen. Your (wb is gonna not be as good after nerf) attack whatever it is. Does 17k, so really 8.5k pvp, then impen and resist makes it what a 4kish hit meaning you heal for 2-3k at best per sec?

Blessing of restoration is far superior a heal

Uhhh yes and it also really sucks as a gap closer.

Wrecking blow is not a hesl. Its a damned good offensive move.

Wrecking Surge is all that and a good heal, not a grest one, except in some cases where it might only be annok heal.

But, imo, any heal you proc by knocking the crap outta an enemy with your favorite attack is a good heal.

If you're just looking for a self heal on a sorc these days, you're better off with dark exchange or a clanfear. Surge is still good for the damage buff, but it was never a particularly good heal.

Both those require me to spend an action i could be attscking with, while surge just adds hesling for free on top of my usual offense de jour.

I do prefer the clanfear heal for bigger heals and their occasional attacks and aggro.

americansteel · May 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

So I keep thinking I gotta be missing something. A hidden gem ZOS knows about that I don't....

Because....

After DB, the only moves that are not time based, attacks are: Mage's Wrath/Fury and Inner Fire/Rage.

.... Im not the biggest fan of destro staff... and I really don't wanna be pigeonholed...

But wtf? I gotta be missing something right? All weapon based trees have instant abilities, all classes (except sorc) have spammable stam moves...

Fighters guild has many attacks based on stam (all), Undaunted has many stam attacks too

Mage's guild is a joke of a tree for offense. Soul tree is... it really is a joke right?

So after DB, the two istant moves I have access to, at most, will be dealing 2.5k dmg?

I'm missing something right? Oh please let me be missing something

trying to play outside of class role?

starkerealm · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Streak does straight up aoe dmg plus reposition (danged mudcrabs)
Also pets if used make attacks.

But while i DO support adding an attack skill into DM (imo self-centered aoe) i dont think its needed to have every class have any one element.

With sorcs ability to heal-buff ANY weapon or guild attack skill using surge, lacks in their core skills make sense.

I mean, wrecking surge spam doesnt suck, right?

Doesn't it as a heal? It's (stam version) 50% of total damage (if crit dmg is horrid). You face an opponent with the 15k resist and impen. Your (wb is gonna not be as good after nerf) attack whatever it is. Does 17k, so really 8.5k pvp, then impen and resist makes it what a 4kish hit meaning you heal for 2-3k at best per sec?

Blessing of restoration is far superior a heal

Uhhh yes and it also really sucks as a gap closer.

Wrecking blow is not a hesl. Its a damned good offensive move.

Wrecking Surge is all that and a good heal, not a grest one, except in some cases where it might only be annok heal.

But, imo, any heal you proc by knocking the crap outta an enemy with your favorite attack is a good heal.

If you're just looking for a self heal on a sorc these days, you're better off with dark exchange or a clanfear. Surge is still good for the damage buff, but it was never a particularly good heal.

Both those require me to spend an action i could be attscking with, while surge just adds hesling for free on top of my usual offense de jour.

I do prefer the clanfear heal for bigger heals and their occasional attacks and aggro.

Clanfears are also surprisingly useful in Cyrodiil for running down rabbiting gankers.

Honestly, if you want a persistent heal on a sorc, your best option is probably Rally. Surge's heal is just too unreliable to count on. Even with a high crit build. This is especially true of PvP, though even in PvE Surge can get you killed by being petulant with your crits.

ostrapz · May 2016

I think the issue with a spammable sorc move that is actually dealing good damage is the fact that it when a frag is procced they would land at the same time, in lag you will catch at least 1 more attack before you break cc. The sorcs main skill is frag and it seems to revolve around timing your other moves so frag hits when they do. The problem with having a frag which lets say is 8k and a spammable dps at around 5k means at 20k health unless your at full you will almost always be put in execute from them combined. This in itself wouldnt be so bad if sorcs had a normal executioner like executioner which was just an active ability with increased damage, instead they have disintegration/fury which will instantly finish you. You could give sorc another move but they definitely have to tweak some things if so,

Waffennacht · May 2016

ostrapz wrote: »

I think the issue with a spammable sorc move that is actually dealing good damage is the fact that it when a frag is procced they would land at the same time, in lag you will catch at least 1 more attack before you break cc. The sorcs main skill is frag and it seems to revolve around timing your other moves so frag hits when they do. The problem with having a frag which lets say is 8k and a spammable dps at around 5k means at 20k health unless your at full you will almost always be put in execute from them combined. This in itself wouldnt be so bad if sorcs had a normal executioner like executioner which was just an active ability with increased damage, instead they have disintegration/fury which will instantly finish you. You could give sorc another move but they definitely have to tweak some things if so,

Disintegration only procs at like 2% health. It might as well not exist.

But NBs have a spammable dps move that deals 8k dmg in PvP (or 16 in PvE), a gap closer, a shield, an escape move and heals.

I state that because clearly the argument cannot be made that a sorc would be OP with a spammable dps move, at most they would be only slightly behind NBs in available viable moves and builds.

clocksstoppe · May 2016

I don't get why everyone seems to want every class to have the same skill types and be viable for any type of build..

What would be the point of having different classes then? Looking at different animations and particle effects of the same abilities?

ostrapz · May 2016

@Waffennacht disintegration aside my point remains. Magenb coneceale not 8k so imguessing you saying stam nb but we have no shield. Escape move bugs out from curse instea of suppresing it like 20% of the time. My main heal is weapon based ( pidgeonholed the word you used). Yes some people can hit 8k sa but id think a sorc can outsustain that build played right and with a build with any sustain like i run the only way your hitting 8k on a sorc is crit with no shield. I certainly dont and i have mostly gold with wd enchants. They could get a move but it really cant hit hard, unless they change the way fury works imo sorcs are already next to stam nb

Waffennacht · May 2016

clocksstoppe wrote: »

I don't get why everyone seems to want every class to have the same skill types and be viable for any type of build..

What would be the point of having different classes then? Looking at different animations and particle effects of the same abilities?

That's an argument against the changes right?

Because if everyone gets a ward, then we NEED to get a dps spam move.

We have: Curse/Prey, Frag, Wrath... and that is it for active offensive moves in 3 skill trees.

You may consider Shattering Prison, its most definitely not a dps move however, a it deals 500dps tho...

Mines is defensive and also timed.

The AoEs and Pets are only end game viable in PvE, maybe if console could control pets it would be different, but we can't so I dunno.

Waffennacht · May 2016

ostrapz wrote: »

@Waffennacht disintegration aside my point remains. Magenb coneceale not 8k so imguessing you saying stam nb but we have no shield. Escape move bugs out from curse instea of suppresing it like 20% of the time. My main heal is weapon based ( pidgeonholed the word you used). Yes some people can hit 8k sa but id think a sorc can outsustain that build played right and with a build with any sustain like i run the only way your hitting 8k on a sorc is crit with no shield. I certainly dont and i have mostly gold with wd enchants. They could get a move but it really cant hit hard, unless they change the way fury works imo sorcs are already next to stam nb

As is, pre DB, I agree. Post DB, all stam have access to a ward.

Yes I'm talking about Stam vs Magicka.

I feel all Magicka builds are now pigeonholed directly into a very limited class move pool.

Stam has all these weapons with abilities, class moves, guild moves, and undaunted moves.

Sorcs specifically will ONLY have Wrath and Inner Rage, both of which are not intended to be spammed and do little to no damage.

Edit: Now if each TYPE of staff had different abilities, then this WOULD be balance

ostrapz · May 2016

Apparently , originally allclass moves were magicka and you had to get stam dps out the weapon lines which they slowly have changed which i believe is part of the reasoning behind fg changes. I anticipate mages guild changes( probably couldnt fit it all)and possibly in the further future 1 more magicka weapon line. To your point though while i believe more options in general is good stam classes are pidgeonholed into 2h for heals( they reverted the bone shield to scale off max health, as it should probably stay imo) so to say magicka classes are pidgeonholed much more than stamina isnt exactly true. In reality other than wb no other spammable is very effective, snipe isnt in a 1v1, ransack without animation cancelling in itself is not strong, flurry isnt great but may be better next patch. It doesnt make sense that dw spell damage is that strong in the first place unless they gonna make a magicka morph

ostrapz · May 2016

I think patch after db will be when they do something big to round things out to some balance, whether they address class abilities or mages guild

Funkopotamus · May 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I think you guys are misunderstanding the point.

It's not "sorcerers suck!" Or "they are nerfing me!" Or anything like that.

As I said there are about 2 very effective builds of sorcs. But even they share 90% the same moves.

Im just wondering about variety and why does stam get so much of it while magicka got burned?

(I honestly thought with the guilds going stam they would make a few stam, magicka... did they?)

You have to understand that most of these trolling haters are

Templars that have always been angry from day one as they have always been treated like adopted abused children!
Giggity Stealth Giggity NB's
Easy/God Mode DK's that have been the undisputed kings of ESO and the love children of the DEVS.

Sorcs have been through hell simply because bad players could not kill them in PvP. Good players never had this issue as good players knew exactly how to kill Sorcs. But the mass majority of PvP players think that if a sorc did not die after you button smashed 5 buttons then Sorcs are OP and needed a nerf.

They nerfed bolt to make Sorcs fight in close range combat more often...... Bad Players still got PWNT.
They nerfed OC Bad players still got PWNT....
They nerfed shields Bad players still got PWNT.

Simply put.. ZOS and these "Bad Players" will not be happy until all sorcs are left running around Cyrodiil armed only with a tube of KY and knee pads.

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

You're not seeing things, every class has lame skills that push us into a corner we dont want to be in. But dont forget about crushing shock, and liquid lightning splash

mdylan2013 · May 2016

Good sorcs adapt and learn to use their plentiful defensive abilities to their advantage.

Bad sorcs spam shields and cry when they get feared/wrecking blowed.

TheHsN · May 2016

no u are not and it is awefull

starkerealm · May 2016

clocksstoppe wrote: »

I don't get why everyone seems to want every class to have the same skill types and be viable for any type of build..

What would be the point of having different classes then? Looking at different animations and particle effects of the same abilities?

They don't. They look at their class, see something that another class, and want that with everything else their class already has.

"That class has a click heal, I want it. Nevermind that my class has different ways of recovering from damage."

"That class has a spammable attack, I want it. Nevermind that my class already has a spammable attack."

"That class has a click shield, I want it. Nevermind that my class already has other ways of mitigating incoming damage."

They want to plug their class' weakness, while keeping its strengths, without realizing that if you follow that chain of thought far enough you'll homogenize the classes into, like you said, different particle effects and animations for the same abilities.

You can do whatever you want with each class in ESO, but the way you'll need to build your character will change.

Waffennacht · May 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

I don't get why everyone seems to want every class to have the same skill types and be viable for any type of build..

What would be the point of having different classes then? Looking at different animations and particle effects of the same abilities?

They don't. They look at their class, see something that another class, and want that with everything else their class already has.

"That class has a click heal, I want it. Nevermind that my class has different ways of recovering from damage."

"That class has a spammable attack, I want it. Nevermind that my class already has a spammable attack."

"That class has a click shield, I want it. Nevermind that my class already has other ways of mitigating incoming damage."

They want to plug their class' weakness, while keeping its strengths, without realizing that if you follow that chain of thought far enough you'll homogenize the classes into, like you said, different particle effects and animations for the same abilities.

You can do whatever you want with each class in ESO, but the way you'll need to build your character will change.

That would make sense if we weren't nerfed and/or have moves removed.

I FIRST had Daedric Tomb. It got Pwned, that was MY CLASS ability, not something my class wanted.

THEN all non-class abilities got Pwned, that again was NOT a plug we saw somewhere else.

We HAD other forms heals, They got Pwned.

It's not that we want something for nothing, I'm just asking for what we USE to have for variety.

In no way shape or form was Tomb or Webs OP or needed nerfed.