Quick Quiz

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

In the past few days I've come across many high end players who get this completely wrong, and in fact get it backwards. It's led to the misconception this people benifit more from warhorn when they are using Twice Born Start than Julionos (which is completely not true).

Here's the question.

For ease of numbers let's say you're foolishly not wearing any divines pieces at all. If I have no stone at all, and my crit does 100 damange, how much (with all other things equal) will my crits do after adding the Shadow Stone?

I will give you the correct answer in 5 minutes. I hope somebody responds with the typical wrong answer in the meantime.

Leandor · May 2016

108. Instead of 150%, it is 162%.

JamieAubrey · May 2016

I'll take a wild guess and say 112

Rylana · May 2016

(100/1.5) ^ 1.62 = 108

Also you meant impen and not divines, surely. (as in your target has no crit resist, i see what you meant now)

Edit to add: recalculating, you said crit hit and not base hit of 100 original answer was 162

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

In the past few days I've come across many high end players who get this completely wrong, and in fact get it backwards. It's led to the misconception this people benifit more from warhorn when they are using Twice Born Start than Julionos (which is completely not true).

Here's the question.

For ease of numbers let's say you're foolishly not wearing any divines pieces at all. If I have no stone at all, and my crit does 100 damange, how much (with all other things equal) will my crits do after adding the Shadow Stone?

I will give you the correct answer in 5 minutes. I hope somebody responds with the typical wrong answer in the meantime.

Of course I hope some of realize this is an ill posed question. The most common (wronng) answer is 112 damage, after all the shadow stone clearly says it adds 12% to your critical strike damage. However, that 12% extra damage is added to YOUR NON CRIT damage. So, as posed, the question is completely unanswerable. You need to know how much damage the person is doing with normal attacks, or, what amounts to the same thing what the ratio is for the player of crit to non-crit damage.

For instance, in the "best case scenerio" where the person is playing a Sorc or a Dk (not a Nb or Templar) and the person has no CP adding to the critical strike damage, and no trap, no warhorn active their non-crit strikes are doing 67 damage. So their critical strikes with shadow stone are doing 50+12=62% more damage instead of 50% more. Since 62% of 67 is 41.54, the critical hits will do 108.52 "damage" (I left the decimal in cuz I'm not sure how these things round, so the crits will do either 108 or 109 damage).

In the "worst case scenerio" where the person is playing a nb or a templar (giving 10% crit damage bonus as passives), war horn is sounded, the person has a ton of cp into elfborn or precise strikes, and a trap is down you'll end up doing only 105 damage after adding the shadow stone.

In general, if your crit ratio is x, then you will end up doing 12/x more damage after adding the shadow stone (again, assuming no divines to keep the numbers out of the decimal area .. decimals ... ick). In the first case (dk/sorc no crit bonus) x=3/2, in the second case we're looking at an x over 2.

To further blow the theory that "Twice born benifits more than Juli from warhorn" out of the water is the bloody obvious fact that Juli adds 6% spell crit. More crit means you bonus more from the crit strike increase.

Note, I play mostly magika toons, so I keep talking about Juli instead of Hundings. Also note that I am writing this right after my first post so I can't yet see how people are responding.

If you wish to refute this post please give numbers, or state the particular bug in the ZOS code. The response "I tested it once at some point" is not valid since it's nearly impossible to reproduce the exact same test scenerios. Also, I am not saying the twice born is worse than Juli (or Hundings), I'm simply proving that it benifits less from War Horn. I personally use twice born to farm vMSA on my non sorc toons simply cuz the dps is comparable (you can one hit more things in fact, but the lower magika crit means less dps over all), and you get those nice health and stam bonuses.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I'm a mathematician so I tend to be quite dry.

Rylana · May 2016

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

In the past few days I've come across many high end players who get this completely wrong, and in fact get it backwards. It's led to the misconception this people benifit more from warhorn when they are using Twice Born Start than Julionos (which is completely not true).

Here's the question.

For ease of numbers let's say you're foolishly not wearing any divines pieces at all. If I have no stone at all, and my crit does 100 damange, how much (with all other things equal) will my crits do after adding the Shadow Stone?

I will give you the correct answer in 5 minutes. I hope somebody responds with the typical wrong answer in the meantime.

Of course I hope some of realize this is an ill posed question. The most common (wronng) answer is 112 damage, after all the shadow stone clearly says it adds 12% to your critical strike damage. However, that 12% extra damage is added to YOUR NON CRIT damage. So, as posed, the question is completely unanswerable. You need to know how much damage the person is doing with normal attacks, or, what amounts to the same thing what the ratio is for the player of crit to non-crit damage.

For instance, in the "best case scenerio" where the person is playing a Sorc or a Dk (not a Nb or Templar) and the person has no CP adding to the critical strike damage, and no trap, no warhorn active their non-crit strikes are doing 67 damage. So their critical strikes with shadow stone are doing 50+12=62% more damage instead of 50% more. Since 62% of 67 is 41.54, the critical hits will do 108.52 "damage" (I left the decimal in cuz I'm not sure how these things round, so the crits will do either 108 or 109 damage).

In the "worst case scenerio" where the person is playing a nb or a templar (giving 10% crit damage bonus as passives), war horn is sounded, the person has a ton of cp into elfborn or precise strikes, and a trap is down you'll end up doing only 105 damage after adding the shadow stone.

In general, if your crit ratio is x, then you will end up doing 12/x more damage after adding the shadow stone (again, assuming no divines to keep the numbers out of the decimal area .. decimals ... ick). In the first case (dk/sorc no crit bonus) x=3/2, in the second case we're looking at an x over 2.

To further blow the theory that "Twice born benifits more than Juli from warhorn" out of the water is the bloody obvious fact that Juli adds 6% spell crit. More crit means you bonus more from the crit strike increase.

Note, I play mostly magika toons, so I keep talking about Juli instead of Hundings. Also note that I am writing this right after my first post so I can't yet see how people are responding.

If you wish to refute this post please give numbers, or state the particular bug in the ZOS code. The response "I tested it once at some point" is not valid since it's nearly impossible to reproduce the exact same test scenerios. Also, I am not saying the twice born is worse than Juli (or Hundings), I'm simply proving that it benifits less from War Horn. I personally use twice born to farm vMSA on my non sorc toons simply cuz the dps is comparable (you can one hit more things in fact, but the lower magika crit means less dps over all), and you get those nice health and stam bonuses.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I'm a mathematician so I tend to be quite dry.

Thats close to how I came up with my answer, as posted above, except i didnt round base-hit, i used 66.666repeating and it gave me exactly 108

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

Rylana wrote: »

(100/1.5) ^ 1.62 = 108

Also you meant impen and not divines, surely. (as in your target has no crit resist, i see what you meant now)

Edit to add: recalculating, you said crit hit and not base hit of 100 original answer was 162

No, I meant divines. Divines would increase the 12 by more. You're first answer is closer, but like the common wrong answer you're not taking into account

!) Class (nb n templars get less than sorcs and dks .... a counter intuitive fact)

2) CP. The number gets lower the more CP you have (again, this is not misworded and is counter intuitive for the same reason point one is).

3) Is there a trap beast or war horn active. Again, if they are the number gets LOWER. (Once again, not a typo)

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

I'd love to be proven wrong. This is how you learn, but somebody shattering my beliefs by pointing out something I'm missing. So I'd love to hear from somebody who can explain to me why so many thing TBS benifits more from war horn than Juli/Hundings.

(Of course I'm assuming if you pve you're using the thief stone, not something completely silly like the apprentice/warrior stone .... which benifits your dps just slightly more than the lady, lol)

GivvumBoane · May 2016

Lol ok this is just too much math to really care about. I have to use trigonometry, and geometry daily for work. When I'm not at work, I'm not looking to solve for x values. I just want to play the game.

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Lol ok this is just too much math to really care about. I have to use trigonometry, and geometry daily for work. When I'm not at work, I'm not looking to solve for x values. I just want to play the game.

IKR. x is like 7th grade ***. I also proudly declare my regection of everything I learned in 7th grade as well.

BTW, my compuyter is down so I guess I'll fill my need for this game for hanging out on the forums. This is more fun than I thought.

GivvumBoane · May 2016

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Lol ok this is just too much math to really care about. I have to use trigonometry, and geometry daily for work. When I'm not at work, I'm not looking to solve for x values. I just want to play the game.

IKR. x is like 7th grade ***. I also proudly declare my regection of everything I learned in 7th grade as well.

BTW, my compuyter is down so I guess I'll fill my need for this game for hanging out on the forums. This is more fun than I thought.

Remember when that math teacher told us we would need math in our everyday lives, and we were like "this b***h is crazy." Here we are crunching numbers to play a game.