Satiar wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.

Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.

Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?

The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be

Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.

Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.

(This is a long response, but bear with me. I think this will answer many questions about the purpose and POV of the post.)

The OP only contained charts. This was not in error, this was purposeful. I felt that including an assessment of these numbers in relation to how they affect class balance would simply taint their presence. It would be an opinion. The presence of my opinion coupled with these charts would dilute the OP with bias when I wanted the information to shine as irrefutable instead. Despite numerous people's irritations and loud disregard for me or the information presented, one thing was achieved. No reasonable person can deny that nightblades have more access to these buffs. We now move on to debate what this truly means.

Though I have many many opinions about what we see in the original post, as I expressed later in comments, sometimes I think it's important to just let actual facts be available rather than putting a slant on it. The OP is factual despite the amount of people that screamed that it wasn't. There is nothing opinion based about it. It's simply the major and minor buffs that each class has access to through their class skills. In retrospect, the title was poorly chosen and lead to much of the disdain. But the actual post itself did not suggest flat nerfs, or suggest anything at all. And there was a purpose for that.

People became angry about the post for two reasons.

1. Because the title calling something OP has a negative connotation and is tied to suggesting nerfs
2. People become uncomfortable when their class is exposed as having some advantage over the others


I agree that the classes have their diversity and that is what makes this game great. However I think it's important everyone remove their own benefit out of the equation and simply look at what you can find through these charts.

If NB is intended to be a high DD class, if they receive many of their bonuses for damage to be in line with this concept, is it practical or fair that they have a passive that gives them 15% regen to all stats? Is this in and of itself not completely out of line with the concept of NB? Is there no trade off for NB's increased damage potential? Everyone says heals and yet, how many buffs do NB's receive as a trade off for poor heals?

Why are NB's able to receive three major buffs with one spammable, high damage single target skill? Being able to refresh MAJOR FRACTURE, MAJOR RESOLVE AND MAJOR WARD instantly with 1 skill is extremely overpowered.

I'll expand on this. Surprise attack. It debuffs the target's armor with major fracture. This is extremely powerful as it means that you are literally UNABLE to attack someone with your ST without debuffing them first, because the two come in one. Is this not enough of a benefit to the skill? Because if it wasn't, every time you use that skill, you also gain major resolve and major ward, or increase your own defenses. The very essence of this interaction is broken.

The NB is unable to do damage without debuffing its target. This is an advantage not available to other classes. Burning breath does major fracture but is applied as a dot and not used as a ST. This strength means that NB have a static increased damage to this skill that is not seen on the tooltip. On top of that static reduction in targets armor, they gain a static physical and spell resist when doing this. There is absolutely no weakness to the attack at all. The is no counter. You could purge the major fracture, but it would be immediately reapplied with the next surprise attack.

I'll digress because this post is becoming much longer than I originally intended, but that is just some insight into the true power of major and minor buffs and why a class with more access to them across the board has a distinct advantage. People can continue to relegate the major/minor buffs as unimportant or unrelated, but they literally are the basis for every combat buff in the game at this time. So a class with more access to these, automatically has increased access to raw power.

@Jules

Personally, I was upset because the information you posted WAS biased by omission: that is, you attempted to reduce class balance to access to a few (sometimes meaningless) buffs. I'd trade literally half or more of my total available NB buffs for major mending, for example. Quantity does not equal quality. I got more upset when you refused to consider counterpoints from people who know the class far better than you, all the while demonstrating how black and white your view of class balance is (your escapade with the "burst heal" being an excellent example).

In the end, it's not about you, people aren't disagreeing with you because they don't like you. People disagreed with incomplete facts and the utter dismissiveness you demonstrated towards those who tried to correct them. Quite simply, your OP was flawed and you have been extremely resistant to anyone who hints at this.

susmitds wrote: »

Sorry OP, your post is biased to say the least. You listed the same buffs over and over again. Maybe I need to remind you that the same buffs do not stack.
Next, if you count the total number of buffs available to Nightblades themselves, you will find that it is same as the other classes.
Thirdly, if you missed the lack of defensive options of Nightblades.
Fourthly, you seem not to notice the lack of a reliable self heal of Nightblades. Stamblades don't have a single class heal option.

If you want to do a comparison, don't play favourites. I could use the same logic to complain that Templars have too many heals, or DKs have too many defensive options.

Jules wrote: »

Lol, the only class with access to Major Evasion should have Minor Evasion too because reasons. #balance

Jules wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Lol, the only class with access to Major Evasion should have Minor Evasion too because reasons. #balance

Ahem last time I checked every class can use shuffle

Sure, but last time I checked shuffle didn't give

Restoration to magicka over 6 seconds
Increased critical strike
Increased spell crit
Increased critical strike damage by 10%

DDuke wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Lol, the only class with access to Major Evasion should have Minor Evasion too because reasons. #balance

Ahem last time I checked every class can use shuffle

Sure, but last time I checked shuffle didn't give

Restoration to magicka over 6 seconds
Increased critical strike
Increased spell crit
Increased critical strike damage by 10%

Jules, you need only one skill slotted to get most of those passives, which is usually going to be Ambush or Relentless Focus (Merciless for magicka builds).

Also, the magicka restoration passive is only when you kill people with Assassination ability - now, Blur skill doesn't deal any damage so it is highly unlikely you ever kill anyone with it.

What you get by slotting Blur is actually 1% critical strike chance. Whether that is worth over being able to dispel roots/snares, I'll leave for you to determine.

Jules wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Lol, the only class with access to Major Evasion should have Minor Evasion too because reasons. #balance

Ahem last time I checked every class can use shuffle

Sure, but last time I checked shuffle didn't give

Restoration to magicka over 6 seconds
Increased critical strike
Increased spell crit
Increased critical strike damage by 10%

Jules, you need only one skill slotted to get most of those passives, which is usually going to be Ambush or Relentless Focus (Merciless for magicka builds).

Also, the magicka restoration passive is only when you kill people with Assassination ability - now, Blur skill doesn't deal any damage so it is highly unlikely you ever kill anyone with it.

What you get by slotting Blur is actually 1% critical strike chance. Whether that is worth over being able to dispel roots/snares, I'll leave for you to determine.

Regardless of whether you "get those from ambush or relentless focus" - if Blur were the only skill on your bar, you'd still have those buffs from the passives. It's illogical to argue that they don't count bc other skills in the tree are viable.
And you don't just get 1% critical strike you also get 1% spell critical. And the 10% critical strike damage.

Of course it's not better than shuffle, again, THIS IS NOT THE POINT.

The point is YOUR CLASS SHOULDN'T HAVE THE BEST OF EVERYTHING. Your changes proposed to bring blur in like with shuffle, but what you seemingly cannot understand is - no other class even HAS an option for this other than shuffle. Why should NB get all these buffs to INCREASE damage and get a built in class skill for dodge chance to DECREASE incoming damage?