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Why NB's are OP in 1 picture
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dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭.
Really I never thought that was really broken.Can you tell me how much stamina they are expected to get back from a melee hit?I play on Consoles so hard to do they math and test the information.@Derra All of my stam builds are RedGuards what is broken about Redguards passives.Can you please explain it to me because am not sure what you and @Ragnaroek93 are talking about when you say Redguards are broken.
The Adrenaline rush passive allows a redguard to effectively stack more damage, and still maintain higher sustain then similar builds.A redguard can both out sustain and out damage the opponent.
I never really thought Redguards were a broken race on a stambuild I usually just pick them because I really like the Redguard race.
My redguard nb is sitting at 36.5k stam (no undaunted). The passive reads 1095 stamina every 3 seconds. Regen ticks every 2 seconds. Multiply the number 2 and divide it by 3. So the passive gives me 730 stamina regen for stacking damage.
I'd say the balance is that it's not passive. It only works continuously when able to deal Melee damage.1 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.
Really I never thought that was really broken.Can you tell me how much stamina they are expected to get back from a melee hit?I play on Consoles so hard to do they math and test the information.@Derra All of my stam builds are RedGuards what is broken about Redguards passives.Can you please explain it to me because am not sure what you and @Ragnaroek93 are talking about when you say Redguards are broken.
The Adrenaline rush passive allows a redguard to effectively stack more damage, and still maintain higher sustain then similar builds.A redguard can both out sustain and out damage the opponent.
I never really thought Redguards were a broken race on a stambuild I usually just pick them because I really like the Redguard race.
My redguard nb is sitting at 36.5k stam (no undaunted). The passive reads 1095 stamina every 3 seconds. Regen ticks every 2 seconds. Multiply the number 2 and divide it by 3. So the passive gives me 730 stamina regen for stacking damage.
I'd say the balance is that it's not passive. It only works continuously when able to deal Melee damage.
In a duel a redguard out shines any other race for stam. In pve redguard out shines any other race for stam. Sounds balanced.- Mojican6 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I actually prefer fighting Stamdks over good Manasorcs or Manatemps unless the Dk isn't a Redguard. Seriously, this race is broken and makes Stambuilds impossible to balance (especially on Stamdks).
100% this.
I have no issues fighting a stam DK. It´s an interesting fight most of the time IF and that´s a big if because most of the current stam DKs are rerolls - if it´s not a redguard.
Yeah. People complain about Sorcs who can just stack everything into magicka and get defense as well. But every build gets more defense (healing) by stacking dmg or the mainstat. And nobody complains about Redguards who can just stack stamina and get defense, damage AND regen. If that's not overpowered than I don't know...
I've highlighted the biggest problem NBs have outside ganking.
While it's true you get more Vigor healing by stacking weapon dmg, the main issue here is that all other builds besides stamblades benefit from that 20% more due to Major Mending and have more heals/shields to go along with all that weapon dmg/stamina.
This was a fair trade-off when cloak still worked properly and was our main source of dmg mitigation - but it's not the case anymore.
We have more sustain with Siphoning Attacks. The hardest opponents are in my opinion (Redguard Dks excluded because it's the race that is broken and not the class) good Manasorcs who just camp in mines (pretty impossible to kill without shieldbreaker or actually I don't know how to handle them ^^) and good Manatemps. I agree that Nightblades aren't that great at duels (and pretty much agree on everything you said), but they are still a lot fun to play
I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭.
Really I never thought that was really broken.Can you tell me how much stamina they are expected to get back from a melee hit?I play on Consoles so hard to do they math and test the information.@Derra All of my stam builds are RedGuards what is broken about Redguards passives.Can you please explain it to me because am not sure what you and @Ragnaroek93 are talking about when you say Redguards are broken.
The Adrenaline rush passive allows a redguard to effectively stack more damage, and still maintain higher sustain then similar builds.A redguard can both out sustain and out damage the opponent.
I never really thought Redguards were a broken race on a stambuild I usually just pick them because I really like the Redguard race.
My redguard nb is sitting at 36.5k stam (no undaunted). The passive reads 1095 stamina every 3 seconds. Regen ticks every 2 seconds. Multiply the number 2 and divide it by 3. So the passive gives me 730 stamina regen for stacking damage.
I'd say the balance is that it's not passive. It only works continuously when able to deal Melee damage.
In a duel a redguard out shines any other race for stam. In pve redguard out shines any other race for stam. Sounds balanced.
Khajiit is better than Redguard in PVE. The only reason Redguard or Imperial were better before was when the Khajiit passive was broken. 8% Crit is a lot of DPS, and the better organized you group with Warhorn rotation, and debuffs the better crit becomes.0 -
Ara_Valleria✭✭✭✭✭Ara_Valleria wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »Quite honestly, I could give a rat's a** about that elf Aenlir with his justin bieber elf facial features and his robotic elf girlfriend Ara Valleria of Valleria with valerian steel and friendly with Jared Mormont.....
01001001 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101100 01101001 01100101 01100010 01100101 01110010Publius_Scipio wrote: »For those of you that do not know, she wasted the time in her life to spell out she is a beliber in binary. Not to be unexpected for an elf.
My war with the elves is not over by a long shot.
#PúbicScipio + #PubliusSpambush = #PubicSpambush
#PubesOfTheCovenant
Edited by Ara_Valleria on May 12, 2016 11:47PM°‡° ÁDAMANT °‡°
The Addon Abusers, Exploiters & Macro'ers Refuge•••• | Ara Valleria - AD NightBlade | Templàra Valleria - AD Templar | Åra Valleria - AD DragonKnight | Ára V - AD DragonKnight | Ara Laifu - DC NightBlade | Ara Waifu - EP Sorcerer | ••••
••••••| YOUTUBE |••••••Want to take a break from all the Lagging|Crashing|Cancer ?
Play Albion Online5 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭Nightblades aren't OP. They are just the most complete class. Nightblades don't need to be nerfed, the other classes need to be buffed.
So the 8% dmg buff to the 20% damage buff gap closer to the OTHER 20% damage buff from the 50 ult cost ability that was used while the unblockable aoe cc makes defending impossible to the 10% stealth weapon damage and 10% critical damage buff to the class execute that buffs crit strike rating.
And if they dont explode, the class spamable dps passives give you the "tankyness" of the DK slotted ability.
Try using block if you think DK is the "tank" class.
1 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.#MOREORBS10 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ara_Valleria wrote: »Ara_Valleria wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »Quite honestly, I could give a rat's a** about that elf Aenlir with his justin bieber elf facial features and his robotic elf girlfriend Ara Valleria of Valleria with valerian steel and friendly with Jared Mormont.....
01001001 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101100 01101001 01100101 01100010 01100101 01110010Publius_Scipio wrote: »For those of you that do not know, she wasted the time in her life to spell out she is a beliber in binary. Not to be unexpected for an elf.
My war with the elves is not over by a long shot.
#PúbicScipio + #PubliusSpambush = #PubicSpambush
#PubesOfTheCovenant
just a second rate elf side kick0 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?1 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »Why did they hide this thread in the alliance sub???
The OP is a PvP junkie.5 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.Edited by Nifty2g on May 13, 2016 4:54AM#MOREORBS9 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.
https://youtu.be/HlnCttr5kEM 0 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »Why did they hide this thread in the alliance sub???
Uh...because we're PvPers talking about PvP?Kena
Former Class Rep
Former Legend GM
Beta player1 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.
If you are unable too understand what OP intent is that's on you.
Now if you can tell me how shadow barrier being on the stealthy class PASSIVE and not the tank class, or why they get a direct buff passive to max health? Riddle those out fer me.1 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.
(This is a long response, but bear with me. I think this will answer many questions about the purpose and POV of the post.)
The OP only contained charts. This was not in error, this was purposeful. I felt that including an assessment of these numbers in relation to how they affect class balance would simply taint their presence. It would be an opinion. The presence of my opinion coupled with these charts would dilute the OP with bias when I wanted the information to shine as irrefutable instead. Despite numerous people's irritations and loud disregard for me or the information presented, one thing was achieved. No reasonable person can deny that nightblades have more access to these buffs. We now move on to debate what this truly means.
Though I have many many opinions about what we see in the original post, as I expressed later in comments, sometimes I think it's important to just let actual facts be available rather than putting a slant on it. The OP is factual despite the amount of people that screamed that it wasn't. There is nothing opinion based about it. It's simply the major and minor buffs that each class has access to through their class skills. In retrospect, the title was poorly chosen and lead to much of the disdain. But the actual post itself did not suggest flat nerfs, or suggest anything at all. And there was a purpose for that.
People became angry about the post for two reasons.
1. Because the title calling something OP has a negative connotation and is tied to suggesting nerfs
2. People become uncomfortable when their class is exposed as having some advantage over the others
I agree that the classes have their diversity and that is what makes this game great. However I think it's important everyone remove their own benefit out of the equation and simply look at what you can find through these charts.
If NB is intended to be a high DD class, if they receive many of their bonuses for damage to be in line with this concept, is it practical or fair that they have a passive that gives them 15% regen to all stats? Is this in and of itself not completely out of line with the concept of NB? Is there no trade off for NB's increased damage potential? Everyone says heals and yet, how many buffs do NB's receive as a trade off for poor heals?
Why are NB's able to receive three major buffs with one spammable, high damage single target skill? Being able to refresh MAJOR FRACTURE, MAJOR RESOLVE AND MAJOR WARD instantly with 1 skill is extremely overpowered.
I'll expand on this. Surprise attack. It debuffs the target's armor with major fracture. This is extremely powerful as it means that you are literally UNABLE to attack someone with your ST without debuffing them first, because the two come in one. Is this not enough of a benefit to the skill? Because if it wasn't, every time you use that skill, you also gain major resolve and major ward, or increase your own defenses. The very essence of this interaction is broken.
The NB is unable to do damage without debuffing its target. This is an advantage not available to other classes. Burning breath does major fracture but is applied as a dot and not used as a ST. This strength means that NB have a static increased damage to this skill that is not seen on the tooltip. On top of that static reduction in targets armor, they gain a static physical and spell resist when doing this. There is absolutely no weakness to the attack at all. The is no counter. You could purge the major fracture, but it would be immediately reapplied with the next surprise attack.
I'll digress because this post is becoming much longer than I originally intended, but that is just some insight into the true power of major and minor buffs and why a class with more access to them across the board has a distinct advantage. People can continue to relegate the major/minor buffs as unimportant or unrelated, but they literally are the basis for every combat buff in the game at this time. So a class with more access to these, automatically has increased access to raw power.
3 -
genjutsu_kami✭✭✭this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.
(This is a long response, but bear with me. I think this will answer many questions about the purpose and POV of the post.)
The OP only contained charts. This was not in error, this was purposeful. I felt that including an assessment of these numbers in relation to how they affect class balance would simply taint their presence. It would be an opinion. The presence of my opinion coupled with these charts would dilute the OP with bias when I wanted the information to shine as irrefutable instead. Despite numerous people's irritations and loud disregard for me or the information presented, one thing was achieved. No reasonable person can deny that nightblades have more access to these buffs. We now move on to debate what this truly means.
Though I have many many opinions about what we see in the original post, as I expressed later in comments, sometimes I think it's important to just let actual facts be available rather than putting a slant on it. The OP is factual despite the amount of people that screamed that it wasn't. There is nothing opinion based about it. It's simply the major and minor buffs that each class has access to through their class skills. In retrospect, the title was poorly chosen and lead to much of the disdain. But the actual post itself did not suggest flat nerfs, or suggest anything at all. And there was a purpose for that.
People became angry about the post for two reasons.
1. Because the title calling something OP has a negative connotation and is tied to suggesting nerfs
2. People become uncomfortable when their class is exposed as having some advantage over the others
I agree that the classes have their diversity and that is what makes this game great. However I think it's important everyone remove their own benefit out of the equation and simply look at what you can find through these charts.
If NB is intended to be a high DD class, if they receive many of their bonuses for damage to be in line with this concept, is it practical or fair that they have a passive that gives them 15% regen to all stats? Is this in and of itself not completely out of line with the concept of NB? Is there no trade off for NB's increased damage potential? Everyone says heals and yet, how many buffs do NB's receive as a trade off for poor heals?
Why are NB's able to receive three major buffs with one spammable, high damage single target skill? Being able to refresh MAJOR FRACTURE, MAJOR RESOLVE AND MAJOR WARD instantly with 1 skill is extremely overpowered.
I'll expand on this. Surprise attack. It debuffs the target's armor with major fracture. This is extremely powerful as it means that you are literally UNABLE to attack someone with your ST without debuffing them first, because the two come in one. Is this not enough of a benefit to the skill? Because if it wasn't, every time you use that skill, you also gain major resolve and major ward, or increase your own defenses. The very essence of this interaction is broken.
The NB is unable to do damage without debuffing its target. This is an advantage not available to other classes. Burning breath does major fracture but is applied as a dot and not used as a ST. This strength means that NB have a static increased damage to this skill that is not seen on the tooltip. On top of that static reduction in targets armor, they gain a static physical and spell resist when doing this. There is absolutely no weakness to the attack at all. The is no counter. You could purge the major fracture, but it would be immediately reapplied with the next surprise attack.
I'll digress because this post is becoming much longer than I originally intended, but that is just some insight into the true power of major and minor buffs and why a class with more access to them across the board has a distinct advantage. People can continue to relegate the major/minor buffs as unimportant or unrelated, but they literally are the basis for every combat buff in the game at this time. So a class with more access to these, automatically has increased access to raw power.
im glad you made the post and highlighted the obvious facts. key word being facts! this isn't a statement made from hate or bias standing point the table you made is the actual count of how many buffs night blade have and the funny thing is i had no idea night blades had this amount of buffs compared to the other classes i thought templars did but i was wrong. it makes you think omg no wonder they hit hard and are efficient at it...... i hope ZOS really do interrogate this issue more.1 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The OP only contained charts. This was not in error, this was purposeful. I felt that including an assessment of these numbers in relation to how they affect class balance would simply taint their presence. It would be an opinion. The presence of my opinion coupled with these charts would dilute the OP with bias when I wanted the information to shine as irrefutable instead. Despite numerous people's irritations and loud disregard for me or the information presented, one thing was achieved. No reasonable person can deny that nightblades have more access to these buffs. We now move on to debate what this truly means.[/b]
This might be conceivable if you didn't title the thread "Why NB's are OP in 1 picture". It is not an objective post.
Your list remains meaningless. It does not consider many factors that have been highlighted. For example:
- repetition
- availability of buffs through non-class skills; especially popular ones
- the fact not all buffs are created equally: it is possible for a class to have both the fewest total number of buffs available and also the best
- duration
- activation
- and many more....
Not that buffs are the be-all, end-all of class strength. It is only one dimension of any build.
Your lists do not offer any true representation of class strength; they certainly do not prove the NB class is OP.
Your SA example is also flawed. Unless it's bugged, SA does not apply Major Fracture with every hit, but only from stealth/invis. [edit: This is incorrect; I do not play a stamina nb build and the reference site I based this information on is out of date] Furthermore, it is in a vacuum without considering potent combos available from builds available to other classes.
What you're suggesting contradicts what most experienced players encounter on the battlefield. I know no experienced players claiming NBs are presently OP. In threads comparing class/resource stength, NB is on the top of no lists other than ganking.
NB isn't an OP class. It is a hated class. NB opponents have the greatest potential to annoy and frustrate.Edited by zyk on May 15, 2016 2:31AM2 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Your SA example is also flawed. Unless it's bugged, SA does not apply Major Fracture with every hit, but only from stealth/invis.
Proof you don't even know your own class. Might wanna change that icon young buck.
6 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.
(This is a long response, but bear with me. I think this will answer many questions about the purpose and POV of the post.)
The OP only contained charts. This was not in error, this was purposeful. I felt that including an assessment of these numbers in relation to how they affect class balance would simply taint their presence. It would be an opinion. The presence of my opinion coupled with these charts would dilute the OP with bias when I wanted the information to shine as irrefutable instead. Despite numerous people's irritations and loud disregard for me or the information presented, one thing was achieved. No reasonable person can deny that nightblades have more access to these buffs. We now move on to debate what this truly means.
Though I have many many opinions about what we see in the original post, as I expressed later in comments, sometimes I think it's important to just let actual facts be available rather than putting a slant on it. The OP is factual despite the amount of people that screamed that it wasn't. There is nothing opinion based about it. It's simply the major and minor buffs that each class has access to through their class skills. In retrospect, the title was poorly chosen and lead to much of the disdain. But the actual post itself did not suggest flat nerfs, or suggest anything at all. And there was a purpose for that.
People became angry about the post for two reasons.
1. Because the title calling something OP has a negative connotation and is tied to suggesting nerfs
2. People become uncomfortable when their class is exposed as having some advantage over the others
I agree that the classes have their diversity and that is what makes this game great. However I think it's important everyone remove their own benefit out of the equation and simply look at what you can find through these charts.
If NB is intended to be a high DD class, if they receive many of their bonuses for damage to be in line with this concept, is it practical or fair that they have a passive that gives them 15% regen to all stats? Is this in and of itself not completely out of line with the concept of NB? Is there no trade off for NB's increased damage potential? Everyone says heals and yet, how many buffs do NB's receive as a trade off for poor heals?
Why are NB's able to receive three major buffs with one spammable, high damage single target skill? Being able to refresh MAJOR FRACTURE, MAJOR RESOLVE AND MAJOR WARD instantly with 1 skill is extremely overpowered.
I'll expand on this. Surprise attack. It debuffs the target's armor with major fracture. This is extremely powerful as it means that you are literally UNABLE to attack someone with your ST without debuffing them first, because the two come in one. Is this not enough of a benefit to the skill? Because if it wasn't, every time you use that skill, you also gain major resolve and major ward, or increase your own defenses. The very essence of this interaction is broken.
The NB is unable to do damage without debuffing its target. This is an advantage not available to other classes. Burning breath does major fracture but is applied as a dot and not used as a ST. This strength means that NB have a static increased damage to this skill that is not seen on the tooltip. On top of that static reduction in targets armor, they gain a static physical and spell resist when doing this. There is absolutely no weakness to the attack at all. The is no counter. You could purge the major fracture, but it would be immediately reapplied with the next surprise attack.
I'll digress because this post is becoming much longer than I originally intended, but that is just some insight into the true power of major and minor buffs and why a class with more access to them across the board has a distinct advantage. People can continue to relegate the major/minor buffs as unimportant or unrelated, but they literally are the basis for every combat buff in the game at this time. So a class with more access to these, automatically has increased access to raw power.
@Jules
Personally, I was upset because the information you posted WAS biased by omission: that is, you attempted to reduce class balance to access to a few (sometimes meaningless) buffs. I'd trade literally half or more of my total available NB buffs for major mending, for example. Quantity does not equal quality. I got more upset when you refused to consider counterpoints from people who know the class far better than you, all the while demonstrating how black and white your view of class balance is (your escapade with the "burst heal" being an excellent example).
In the end, it's not about you, people aren't disagreeing with you because they don't like you. People disagreed with incomplete facts and the utter dismissiveness you demonstrated towards those who tried to correct them. Quite simply, your OP was flawed and you have been extremely resistant to anyone who hints at this.Edited by Satiar on May 14, 2016 11:38PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost8 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.
(This is a long response, but bear with me. I think this will answer many questions about the purpose and POV of the post.)
The OP only contained charts. This was not in error, this was purposeful. I felt that including an assessment of these numbers in relation to how they affect class balance would simply taint their presence. It would be an opinion. The presence of my opinion coupled with these charts would dilute the OP with bias when I wanted the information to shine as irrefutable instead. Despite numerous people's irritations and loud disregard for me or the information presented, one thing was achieved. No reasonable person can deny that nightblades have more access to these buffs. We now move on to debate what this truly means.
Though I have many many opinions about what we see in the original post, as I expressed later in comments, sometimes I think it's important to just let actual facts be available rather than putting a slant on it. The OP is factual despite the amount of people that screamed that it wasn't. There is nothing opinion based about it. It's simply the major and minor buffs that each class has access to through their class skills. In retrospect, the title was poorly chosen and lead to much of the disdain. But the actual post itself did not suggest flat nerfs, or suggest anything at all. And there was a purpose for that.
People became angry about the post for two reasons.
1. Because the title calling something OP has a negative connotation and is tied to suggesting nerfs
2. People become uncomfortable when their class is exposed as having some advantage over the others
I agree that the classes have their diversity and that is what makes this game great. However I think it's important everyone remove their own benefit out of the equation and simply look at what you can find through these charts.
If NB is intended to be a high DD class, if they receive many of their bonuses for damage to be in line with this concept, is it practical or fair that they have a passive that gives them 15% regen to all stats? Is this in and of itself not completely out of line with the concept of NB? Is there no trade off for NB's increased damage potential? Everyone says heals and yet, how many buffs do NB's receive as a trade off for poor heals?
Why are NB's able to receive three major buffs with one spammable, high damage single target skill? Being able to refresh MAJOR FRACTURE, MAJOR RESOLVE AND MAJOR WARD instantly with 1 skill is extremely overpowered.
I'll expand on this. Surprise attack. It debuffs the target's armor with major fracture. This is extremely powerful as it means that you are literally UNABLE to attack someone with your ST without debuffing them first, because the two come in one. Is this not enough of a benefit to the skill? Because if it wasn't, every time you use that skill, you also gain major resolve and major ward, or increase your own defenses. The very essence of this interaction is broken.
The NB is unable to do damage without debuffing its target. This is an advantage not available to other classes. Burning breath does major fracture but is applied as a dot and not used as a ST. This strength means that NB have a static increased damage to this skill that is not seen on the tooltip. On top of that static reduction in targets armor, they gain a static physical and spell resist when doing this. There is absolutely no weakness to the attack at all. The is no counter. You could purge the major fracture, but it would be immediately reapplied with the next surprise attack.
I'll digress because this post is becoming much longer than I originally intended, but that is just some insight into the true power of major and minor buffs and why a class with more access to them across the board has a distinct advantage. People can continue to relegate the major/minor buffs as unimportant or unrelated, but they literally are the basis for every combat buff in the game at this time. So a class with more access to these, automatically has increased access to raw power.
@Jules
Personally, I was upset because the information you posted WAS biased by omission: that is, you attempted to reduce class balance to access to a few (sometimes meaningless) buffs. I'd trade literally half or more of my total available NB buffs for major mending, for example. Quantity does not equal quality. I got more upset when you refused to consider counterpoints from people who know the class far better than you, all the while demonstrating how black and white your view of class balance is (your escapade with the "burst heal" being an excellent example).
In the end, it's not about you, people aren't disagreeing with you because they don't like you. People disagreed with incomplete facts and the utter dismissiveness you demonstrated towards those who tried to correct them. Quite simply, your OP was flawed and you have been extremely resistant to anyone who hints at this.
Still making this about me for some reason even though I admitted the title was negative in retrospect.
I don't even care to fight and/or talk to you anymore. You are incapable of having rational conversation regarding balance without taking unnecessary digs.
I got more upset when you refused to consider counterpoints from people who know the class far better than you
PS- people like Zyk? Who don't even know how their single target works? lol.
1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭this thread is an issue, this is what ruins class diversity, it really does.
Its not diversity when you have everything in one neat little package.
Class passives give greater damage, sustain and defensive capability then any other class. They are sold as the glass cannons. But when the 30 round mag is added, and armor plating, what is it then?
The OP contains no constructive topic discussion and neither does this topic as a whole.
If you take a look you can actually see what is buffing what in each of the classes and if you looked at it from a diversity point of view, you can see what each class is designed to be
Nightblades have the most stam abilties as they were designed to be rogues were they not? of course they have a ton of stam abilities as a class rather than the others, some classes will be stronger than others.
Really, if you want a discussion about the topic, at least add proper context to it. Because all this is, is a nerf and qq thread about how your class can't do everything.
(This is a long response, but bear with me. I think this will answer many questions about the purpose and POV of the post.)
The OP only contained charts. This was not in error, this was purposeful. I felt that including an assessment of these numbers in relation to how they affect class balance would simply taint their presence. It would be an opinion. The presence of my opinion coupled with these charts would dilute the OP with bias when I wanted the information to shine as irrefutable instead. Despite numerous people's irritations and loud disregard for me or the information presented, one thing was achieved. No reasonable person can deny that nightblades have more access to these buffs. We now move on to debate what this truly means.
Though I have many many opinions about what we see in the original post, as I expressed later in comments, sometimes I think it's important to just let actual facts be available rather than putting a slant on it. The OP is factual despite the amount of people that screamed that it wasn't. There is nothing opinion based about it. It's simply the major and minor buffs that each class has access to through their class skills. In retrospect, the title was poorly chosen and lead to much of the disdain. But the actual post itself did not suggest flat nerfs, or suggest anything at all. And there was a purpose for that.
People became angry about the post for two reasons.
1. Because the title calling something OP has a negative connotation and is tied to suggesting nerfs
2. People become uncomfortable when their class is exposed as having some advantage over the others
I agree that the classes have their diversity and that is what makes this game great. However I think it's important everyone remove their own benefit out of the equation and simply look at what you can find through these charts.
If NB is intended to be a high DD class, if they receive many of their bonuses for damage to be in line with this concept, is it practical or fair that they have a passive that gives them 15% regen to all stats? Is this in and of itself not completely out of line with the concept of NB? Is there no trade off for NB's increased damage potential? Everyone says heals and yet, how many buffs do NB's receive as a trade off for poor heals?
Why are NB's able to receive three major buffs with one spammable, high damage single target skill? Being able to refresh MAJOR FRACTURE, MAJOR RESOLVE AND MAJOR WARD instantly with 1 skill is extremely overpowered.
I'll expand on this. Surprise attack. It debuffs the target's armor with major fracture. This is extremely powerful as it means that you are literally UNABLE to attack someone with your ST without debuffing them first, because the two come in one. Is this not enough of a benefit to the skill? Because if it wasn't, every time you use that skill, you also gain major resolve and major ward, or increase your own defenses. The very essence of this interaction is broken.
The NB is unable to do damage without debuffing its target. This is an advantage not available to other classes. Burning breath does major fracture but is applied as a dot and not used as a ST. This strength means that NB have a static increased damage to this skill that is not seen on the tooltip. On top of that static reduction in targets armor, they gain a static physical and spell resist when doing this. There is absolutely no weakness to the attack at all. The is no counter. You could purge the major fracture, but it would be immediately reapplied with the next surprise attack.
I'll digress because this post is becoming much longer than I originally intended, but that is just some insight into the true power of major and minor buffs and why a class with more access to them across the board has a distinct advantage. People can continue to relegate the major/minor buffs as unimportant or unrelated, but they literally are the basis for every combat buff in the game at this time. So a class with more access to these, automatically has increased access to raw power.
@Jules
Personally, I was upset because the information you posted WAS biased by omission: that is, you attempted to reduce class balance to access to a few (sometimes meaningless) buffs. I'd trade literally half or more of my total available NB buffs for major mending, for example. Quantity does not equal quality. I got more upset when you refused to consider counterpoints from people who know the class far better than you, all the while demonstrating how black and white your view of class balance is (your escapade with the "burst heal" being an excellent example).
In the end, it's not about you, people aren't disagreeing with you because they don't like you. People disagreed with incomplete facts and the utter dismissiveness you demonstrated towards those who tried to correct them. Quite simply, your OP was flawed and you have been extremely resistant to anyone who hints at this.
Still making this about me for some reason even though I admitted the title was negative in retrospect.
I don't even care to fight and/or talk to you anymore. You are incapable of having rational conversation regarding balance without taking unnecessary digs.
I got more upset when you refused to consider counterpoints from people who know the class far better than you
PS- people like Zyk? Who don't even know how their single target works? lol.
I am incapable of having rational conversation regarding class balance? Jules, engage with the core of that post. It's not about you, drop the martyr complex. It's about you presenting biased facts (and I detailed how, which you ignored in favor of attacking me) and being dismissive of those who correct them. You attempting to shrug off my criticism "because I'm not capable of rational debate" is childish deflection.
And say what you will fit Zyk, he didn't argue Nightblades had burst heal.
Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost7 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭On topic: WTT my Nightblade burst heal for some combination of a REAL burst heal, a class shield and/or Major Mending. Willing to toss in major fracture and major resolve to close the deal.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost6 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Jules I already gave my opinion on the relevance of this thread
Nonetheless a more interesting list (imo) would be what minor/majors buff each class cannot get, this taking into account every skill lines and not only the class specifics ones. Because that only one class has 3 ways of getting a buff you can easily gain from a weapon/guild tree doesnt seem that op to me...Thats just too incomplete to prove anything, even moreso than your "nerf radiant destruction" thread. NB has certainly the most build diversity, they can be competitive in PvP with ranged stam build; melee stam build; ranged light armour build; melee light armour build; tanky heavy armour build... but there is no NB build that is by far better than any other build on live unlike the pre 1.5 light armour DK. Heck give other classes the same build diversity... but there is not much to nerf on current NB.~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel5 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭My Stamina NB does a lot of damage (burst). But I'm completely dependent upon non-class skills for survival (Rally/Vigor/Shuffle). I can cloak a few times before I run out of Magicka, I suppose (good thing Cloak is so hard to counter, lol). Back to being serious: I simply cannot compete with the class defenses that DK, Sorc, and Templar have access to.
The NB bashing is really tiresome. We're the best gankers, plain and simple. We don't have the highest DPS, we don't have the most mitigation, and we don't have the most healing. We excel at a sub-genre of one role...Edited by kadar on May 15, 2016 1:09AM5 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's proof I haven't played an NB stamina build since around 1.6. And actually, I've hardly played NB in PVP since early Feb. I did double check on a reference site that must be out of date. Please excuse me. I stand corrected on that point, but not the others.Edited by zyk on May 15, 2016 2:11AM3 -
Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Summary of this thread's comments-
NBs- "sure, its got the best sustain, really great damage, decent escape and mobility, all these options and diversity, they are good at everything and access to all these buffs that other classes don't have. But that doesn't make it OP!!! GOD NO!!!"
Everyone else- *eyeroll*
And I dare you to list one buff that other classes don't have access to but NBs do.
Can we stop the NB hate please?
You didn't double dog dare me, but I took you up on it anyway.
Major breach. Major Protection. Major Evasion. Next question?
Well, wrong answer.
Major Breach: Weakness to Elements
Major Protection: "kind of" Empowering Sweep (can be half the value, or double the value...)
Major Evasion: Shuffle
Sweetheart.
Listing things that every class has access to through weapon/armor lines does not prove your point. NB's have exclusive access to these buffs through class skills which come with strong passives to accompany them.
Ehm, the weapon skill lines are there for a reason: so that people use them. They are not a decoration.
And most of the skills there are definitely strong & worth using.
...or would you rather use Power Extraction for Major Brutality than Rally?
Case closed.
ROFL... https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265454/flurry-vs-surprise-attack-major-imbalance-in-damage/p1
2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Summary of this thread's comments-
NBs- "sure, its got the best sustain, really great damage, decent escape and mobility, all these options and diversity, they are good at everything and access to all these buffs that other classes don't have. But that doesn't make it OP!!! GOD NO!!!"
Everyone else- *eyeroll*
And I dare you to list one buff that other classes don't have access to but NBs do.
Can we stop the NB hate please?
You didn't double dog dare me, but I took you up on it anyway.
Major breach. Major Protection. Major Evasion. Next question?
Well, wrong answer.
Major Breach: Weakness to Elements
Major Protection: "kind of" Empowering Sweep (can be half the value, or double the value...)
Major Evasion: Shuffle
Sweetheart.
Listing things that every class has access to through weapon/armor lines does not prove your point. NB's have exclusive access to these buffs through class skills which come with strong passives to accompany them.
Ehm, the weapon skill lines are there for a reason: so that people use them. They are not a decoration.
And most of the skills there are definitely strong & worth using.
...or would you rather use Power Extraction for Major Brutality than Rally?
Case closed.
ROFL... https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265454/flurry-vs-surprise-attack-major-imbalance-in-damage/p1
Yes?
I think that just proves my point - there are so strong single target skills outside the class skills that I'd trade my Surprise Attack for them in PvE.
The reason I don't want that is because NBs used to have the strongest single target spammable to make them competitive in PvE - which they currently aren't. And I don't like playing something that isn't competitive in PvE & only ganks in PvP
I made some other suggestions that should help the survivability aspect of stamina Nightblades & PvE DPS, without affecting PvP burst (or giving them access to more buffs - apart from Minor Evasion) - I'll just copy/paste them here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261852/official-feedback-thread-for-nightblades/p7Some suggestions for improving the situation of nightblades (in both PvE & PvP)
Veil of Blades
Make this a Physical (or Poison/Disease) Damage dealing morph, so stamina nightblades have another option outside Ice Comet/Shooting Star as their offensive ultimate.
This will not increase the burst damage of stamblades & will help their highly sub-par DPS in PvE. Note: I am aware that it is sometimes used in Trials to help survive some mechanics. Making this a Physical Damage dealing ultimate would also perhaps provide Bow using NBs a nice area denial, which is what bow builds sorely lack at the moment.
Optional: increase the radius too by a little.
This would not affect magicka nightblades too much, because they're already using Ice Comet/Shooting Star as well as damaging ultimate, and Veil of Blades rarely sees use in PvP (Soul Tether & Soul Harvest are the go-to ultimates there).
Bolstering Darkness could remain as the tanking ultimate.
Another option: give the Nightblade using the ultimate invisibility while within the Veil of Blades, similar to Batswarm. This would also make it more appealing thanks to the bonus damage you get while in stealth/invisible. In PvP, it could be countered by throwing AoE at the Veil, or shooting a Flare there. Also, you'd only have the invisibility within the circle.
Agony & Morphs
Make them not break from damage over time - that makes them nigh unusable in all content & has some serious anti-synergy with other Nightblade skills (Cripple, Soul Tether etc), as well as simply having a weapon enchant (status effect procs will break Agony instantly).
Shadow Cloak & Morphs
Please. Please fix this skill. It is still breaking from incoming projectiles/damage over time effects, as well as from your own DoTs.
If you need further details please pm me, I'll be happy to provide videos & do further testing to help you fix this.
Shadow Image
Make this skill unusable if you are out of range of the Shade (similar to how Cloak gets greyed out when you are hit by a Flare or similar effect). Nothing is more frustrating than using this skill & then absolutely nothing happening.
Grim Focus & Morphs
Make recasting this skill not reset the count of how many light/heavy attacks you've landed for Assassin's Will.
Optional: make it refresh the duration when you land an Assassin's Will.
Blur & Morphs
Make this skill competitive with Shuffle by making it give you Minor Evasion as well.
Killer's Blade
Boost the damage, it is currently not on par with 2H Executioner (or alternatively allow it to start executing at higher percentage).
Power Extraction
Make it give Major Brutality whether you hit a target or not. The stealth focused class of this MMO being the only one unable to buff their weapon damage while stealthed (without slotting a 2H weapon) is silly & makes no sense. It also pigeonholes NBs into one weapon type (2H).Edited by DDuke on May 15, 2016 10:12AM2
