Elder scrolls should be above debates about balance and class design

Jim_Pipp · May 2016

Anyone else notice that so many of the recent discussions are about how overpowered nightblades are (in just one picture lol!), or how underwhelming something or other about blah blah blah is.

So this is my idea on how to make the elder scrolls online into an elder scrolls game, in that you can choose to play anything. In the process it will undermine ALL of the whining about class balance, and even though it will seem pretty drastic, it really can't be that hard to implement.

Get rid of classes... and instead we choose any three skill lines at character creation.

The current system of grouping three skill lines together and calling it a class seems sensible, until you wonder what dawn's wrath and spears have in common (picking on the templars). So much of the dark brotherhood patch is about making each class have valid stamina options, which is applaudable but clearly isn't going far enough for everyone. By getting rid of classes and giving everyone every option then no-one can complain that their class is unbalanced, only there choice of skill lines was.

It gives us the option to create brilliant or useless individual ways to play, but if you like your current set-up then just stick with the skill lines you have.

Please discuss this as angrily as you can, because I don't see a drawback, and I'm sure ZOS would benefit from adding a class respec scroll to the crown store.

idk · May 2016

Sorry. You lost me at get rid of classes. It would make this the most boring game ever since there would be only one build period and if you didn't play that build you suck big time. Seriously.

Jim_Pipp · May 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry. You lost me at get rid of classes. It would make this the most boring game ever since there would be only one build period and if you didn't play that build you suck big time. Seriously.

A totally valid criticism, except I wonder why there isn't only one class and build that everyone plays now?

ILLESTGLIDER · May 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry. You lost me at get rid of classes. It would make this the most boring game ever since there would be only one build period and if you didn't play that build you suck big time. Seriously.

This is probably going to happen anyway. When they remove vet ranks how long will it take to grind a max level toon? 6-8 hours? Everyone will just roll for the new meta and have it by the end of the day.

idk · May 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry. You lost me at get rid of classes. It would make this the most boring game ever since there would be only one build period and if you didn't play that build you suck big time. Seriously.

A totally valid criticism, except I wonder why there isn't only one class and build that everyone plays now?

Your question doesn't make sense.

idk · May 2016

ILLESTGLIDER wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry. You lost me at get rid of classes. It would make this the most boring game ever since there would be only one build period and if you didn't play that build you suck big time. Seriously.

This is probably going to happen anyway. When they remove vet ranks how long will it take to grind a max level toon? 6-8 hours? Everyone will just roll for the new meta and have it by the end of the day.

The strongest players have many characters. At that, there are several clssses (not mag Sorc) that do serious dps. At that, there is always those that subscribe to FOTMC.

dday3six · May 2016

Yes so then people can complain about there being one best build for each role.

To flip that on it's head, maybe the issue is too much freedom. Maybe players have more than enough rope to hang themselves with bad skills and gear, and the playerbase is not only separated by skill but also by poor choices, so no matter what ZOS does they cannot save us from ourselves.

LordSock · May 2016

Or, we could just stop bitching so much about minor issues.

Robbmrp · May 2016

Had the game just come out, I would have agree'd with you. We've played this game far too long to do a revamp of something like that now. There's really only a few things they need to do, to even everything out IMO.

1- Stop stacking shields, take the greater strength one and give all classes access to one of similar strength.

2- Equal healing: No Class in the game should have an "Oh sh*t" heal spell and go from 1/3-1/4 health to full health, yes it does happen, even in Cyrodil. I'm a Templar and suggesting this change. If each class had access to an equivalent healing spells(both single and group), NO class would be pigeon holed into a "Healer" class. Since EVERYONE has access to Restoration Staff skills, up the healing done there as well as on the other Class Skills. Everyone should be responsible for their own healing in this game. Then we wouldn't have people standing in red(stupid) circles screaming "HEAL! HEAL!" because they are too damn lazy to move out of it. Equal healing regardless of class lets everyone play how they want. If someone wants to specifically go as a healer, they would still have the means to with Class Group Healing and Restoration Staff skills.

3- Tone down ALL damage Skills(especially executes) and increase the amount of points for an Ultimate Skill. It's an Ultimate and supposed to hit like a truck but it shouldn't be able to be re-cast within 1 minute. We shouldn't need a WB, Crystal Frag, Ambush or Dark Flare hitting for 20k+ damage on Crits. Where's the fun in a 2-5 second fight? These fights require 0 skill and are the main reason people are saying nerf this and nerf that.

4- Gap closers: Every gap closer should have a min/max distance required for it so it cannot be spammed over and over. If your 5m away from the target it cannot be used, you have to be in excess of 20 meters to use the ability. All gap closers should be equal in cast time/animations.

5- Revamp any skill that does the following: High damage, CC and knockback/Stuns. We have over 300 skill points to use in this game, why should there be 1 skill that does all 3 of those. Or at least add in a cast time so it cannot be spammed over and over.

With those 4 changes, they can stop god like builds that take 0 damage while destroying other builds. Everyone has an equal shield, healing abilities and damage output. With these changes, it would bring all of the classes more balance and would rely more on build ,gear, skill and tactics instead of Stack SD/WD, Regen and Max stats.

idk · May 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

Had the game just come out, I would have agree'd with you. We've played this game far too long to do a revamp of something like that now. There's really only a few things they need to do, to even everything out IMO.

1- Stop stacking shields, take the greater strength one and give all classes access to one of similar strength.

2- Equal healing: No Class in the game should have an "Oh sh*t" heal spell and go from 1/3-1/4 health to full health, yes it does happen, even in Cyrodil. I'm a Templar and suggesting this change. If each class had access to an equivalent healing spells(both single and group), NO class would be pigeon holed into a "Healer" class. Since EVERYONE has access to Restoration Staff skills, up the healing done there as well as on the other Class Skills. Everyone should be responsible for their own healing in this game. Then we wouldn't have people standing in red(stupid) circles screaming "HEAL! HEAL!" because they are too damn lazy to move out of it. Equal healing regardless of class lets everyone play how they want. If someone wants to specifically go as a healer, they would still have the means to with Class Group Healing and Restoration Staff skills.

3- Tone down ALL damage Skills(especially executes) and increase the amount of points for an Ultimate Skill. It's an Ultimate and supposed to hit like a truck but it shouldn't be able to be re-cast within 1 minute. We shouldn't need a WB, Crystal Frag, Ambush or Dark Flare hitting for 20k+ damage on Crits. Where's the fun in a 2-5 second fight? These fights require 0 skill and are the main reason people are saying nerf this and nerf that.

4- Gap closers: Every gap closer should have a min/max distance required for it so it cannot be spammed over and over. If your 5m away from the target it cannot be used, you have to be in excess of 20 meters to use the ability. All gap closers should be equal in cast time/animations.

5- Revamp any skill that does the following: High damage, CC and knockback/Stuns. We have over 300 skill points to use in this game, why should there be 1 skill that does all 3 of those. Or at least add in a cast time so it cannot be spammed over and over.

With those 4 changes, they can stop god like builds that take 0 damage while destroying other builds. Everyone has an equal shield, healing abilities and damage output. With these changes, it would bring all of the classes more balance and would rely more on build ,gear, skill and tactics instead of Stack SD/WD, Regen and Max stats.

1 yes. It stops there.

blabafat · May 2016

No

That would only kill any diversity

Jim_Pipp · May 2016

LordSock wrote: »

Or, we could just stop bitching so much about minor issues.

Thanks for the responses to this thread. When I first had the idea for this thread it was sarcastic, as I wanted to tell people to stop moaning about classes, as I think we chose our class and should love it or reroll.

But the more I thought about a classless ESO the more I was convinced it would give far more variety to the game, allowing people who wanted to have pets, invisibility and healing all in one character (if they were silly enough to want it).

As a final thought, I feel like the consensus in these responses is that there is a pressure within this game to choose the min/maxed ultimate cookie-cut-out build. I understand the need to be competitive, but I can't help but feel a bit sad that individual and creative builds are so much less attractive than meta builds.

dday3six · May 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

LordSock wrote: »

Or, we could just stop bitching so much about minor issues.

Thanks for the responses to this thread. When I first had the idea for this thread it was sarcastic, as I wanted to tell people to stop moaning about classes, as I think we chose our class and should love it or reroll.

But the more I thought about a classless ESO the more I was convinced it would give far more variety to the game, allowing people who wanted to have pets, invisibility and healing all in one character (if they were silly enough to want it).

As a final thought, I feel like the consensus in these responses is that there is a pressure within this game to choose the min/maxed ultimate cookie-cut-out build. I understand the need to be competitive, but I can't help but feel a bit sad that individual and creative builds are so much less attractive than meta builds.

Effectiveness is by it's nature, attractive. A player takes their fun-build into Cyrodiil, WGT, ICP, or Trials. They fail over and over due to a lack of general optimization and build cohension. Just how long before they stop having fun. Elders Scrolls titles before ESO were single player. The requirements for success were far less stringent.

The space for fun-builds is solo questing, go outside of that and you'll need to up you game a bit.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

Other games have this . The secret world is one . There's just a progression wheel and a limited amount of slotable abilities . It's interesting but it doesn't stop calls for nerfs . Instead of Class nerfs you get build nerfs . So there really is no way to avoid players aiming Nerf guns . The champion system is a hybrid of this model stacked on top of a template style . So now we have even more Nerf gun targets and there's no limit on Nerf ammo out there .

I liked the game more pre TU .

Guppet · May 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

LordSock wrote: »

Or, we could just stop bitching so much about minor issues.

Thanks for the responses to this thread. When I first had the idea for this thread it was sarcastic, as I wanted to tell people to stop moaning about classes, as I think we chose our class and should love it or reroll.

But the more I thought about a classless ESO the more I was convinced it would give far more variety to the game, allowing people who wanted to have pets, invisibility and healing all in one character (if they were silly enough to want it).

As a final thought, I feel like the consensus in these responses is that there is a pressure within this game to choose the min/maxed ultimate cookie-cut-out build. I understand the need to be competitive, but I can't help but feel a bit sad that individual and creative builds are so much less attractive than meta builds.

It all stems from the removal of soft caps. When they were in place there were creative hybrids everywhere.

TheShadowScout · May 2016

Oh, is it this time of the month again? The "remove classes because Skyrim, blah, blah" time?

Not like there aren't dozends of discussions about this already in the forum history...

Still not a good idea. Not if we want to have nifty stuff like we get with out class skills right now. Because the only way to implement this would be to depower class skills to a point where everyone can do everything, and as has been mentioned, that would be boring. Oh, sure, it works well in a solo game, not so much in a MMORPG, where you are -supposed- to have different strengths and weaknesses, for one to keep the PvP from being all the same, all the time, for another to entice PvE people to work together in a team, instead of "each do whatever" approach...

Could there have been more "open" systems to get there? Yes. But they choose this system, and they are not really likely to throw away all their work and change it at this point.
So discussing any idea that relies on such a suggestion is pointless. Well, everything is pointless, but this would be more pointless then everything else...

I much prefer discussions to how things could be -added- to the current system to make it better.
I much prefer to see more options for people to diversidfy their classes and weapon choices.

As for soft caps... oh, yes, please give us something like those back! I so love hybrid builds, and I so hate this "you have to min/max or you will be laughed at by the gamers" approach...

TheShadowScout · May 2016

Oh, is it this time of the month again? The "remove classes because Skyrim, blah, blah" time?

Not like there aren't dozends of discussions about this already in the forum history...

Still not a good idea. Not if we want to have nifty stuff like we get with out class skills right now. Because the only way to implement this would be to depower class skills to a point where everyone can do everything, and as has been mentioned, that would be boring. Oh, sure, it works well in a solo game, not so much in a MMORPG, where you are -supposed- to have different strengths and weaknesses, for one to keep the PvP from being all the same, all the time, for another to entice PvE people to work together in a team, instead of "each do whatever" approach...

Could there have been more "open" systems to get there? Yes. But they choose this system, and they are not really likely to throw away all their work and change it at this point.
So discussing any idea that relies on such a suggestion is pointless. Well, everything is pointless, but this would be more pointless then everything else...

I much prefer discussions to how things could be -added- to the current system to make it better.
I much prefer to see more options for people to diversidfy their classes and weapon choices.

As for soft caps... oh, yes, please give us something like those back! I so love hybrid builds, and I so hate this "you have to min/max or you will be laughed at by the gamers" approach...

Dromede · May 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry. You lost me at get rid of classes. It would make this the most boring game ever since there would be only one build period and if you didn't play that build you suck big time. Seriously.

A totally valid criticism, except I wonder why there isn't only one class and build that everyone plays now?

Can't say about now, but back in 1.5ish i think when hybrid builds were legit, PVP players were calling Cyrodil 'DKs Online'.

There's always metas. Of course, it's not like everyone will give up on the chars and respec right away, but chances are at least half population will do that.

As a sorc, i hated meta with 2 swords (magic reasons), and i gave in because endgame content would have been much harder if i didn't adapt and embrace the change(

Ra'Shtar · May 2016

Basically if they get rid of Classes everyone in pvp would have the shield skill line the healing skill line and the damage skill line.....NO i would rather they add more classes not less.

Volkodav · May 2016

Or,make classes custom.As in Morrowind. Pick which abilities and skills you wish to be your main and make the rest secondary.
I dont really see a problem with people picking the same builds.They tend to do this anyway. Just only skills being open to them.

Silver_Strider · May 2016

Remove all classes and make all class skill line universally available for everyone to use.
That way everyone has Jesus Beam, Cloak, Talons, Jabs, Crystal Frags etc.

Every skill should have a choice in whether it is stamina or magic based upon unlocking the skill (with Weapon, Fighters and Mages Guild Skill Lines being the exceptions) That way, regardless of which way someone goes their skills will always be in line with their build.

Remove all racials that offer an increase to stats in place of some fluff (Imperials get cheaper deals, Khajiit are faster, Argonian get swim speed, etc)

Give all mobs similar Physical and Spell Resistance so that no 1 side has an advantage

Balance all sets to have a polar opposite (similar to Hunding's Rage and Julianos)

Remove Block cost/Dodge roll/Running/Sneak cost from stamina and introduce an "endurance" stat that is universal for everyone with no means of tampering with it via sets, potions etc.

Remove max stats = more damage

This all sounds terrible because it pretty much removes a lot of build diversity as there will probably be an ideal set up with this level of freedom that cause all other set ups to be obsolete and create imbalance in the game to such a degree that the game will lose any sense of enjoyment as now everyone is the same. Balancing this mess of a game is virtually impossible without drastic intervention that many will disagree with.

If anyone wants some of what I've been smoking, hit me up. It is GOOD stuff lol

please don't actually message me this is all a joke.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Anyone else notice that so many of the recent discussions are about how overpowered nightblades are (in just one picture lol!), or how underwhelming something or other about blah blah blah is.

So this is my idea on how to make the elder scrolls online into an elder scrolls game, in that you can choose to play anything. In the process it will undermine ALL of the whining about class balance, and even though it will seem pretty drastic, it really can't be that hard to implement.

Get rid of classes... and instead we choose any three skill lines at character creation.

The current system of grouping three skill lines together and calling it a class seems sensible, until you wonder what dawn's wrath and spears have in common (picking on the templars). So much of the dark brotherhood patch is about making each class have valid stamina options, which is applaudable but clearly isn't going far enough for everyone. By getting rid of classes and giving everyone every option then no-one can complain that their class is unbalanced, only there choice of skill lines was.

It gives us the option to create brilliant or useless individual ways to play, but if you like your current set-up then just stick with the skill lines you have.

Please discuss this as angrily as you can, because I don't see a drawback, and I'm sure ZOS would benefit from adding a class respec scroll to the crown store.

I've been for this since Beta, or at least the notion of being able to pick up other class skills once you've mastered your own. I dont' think they intend to do this, and I suspect Spellcrafting is down the pike which will kind of allow something similar (though artistically different).

Armann · May 2016

While I think ESO never should've implemented classes to begin with, they are here to stay, asking for them to be removed is just pointless. I would like them to expand with more skill lines available to all and I believe we will get that at some point.

They've been clear that they intend to enable every class to perform every role, and with that in mind it is also pointless to expect 1 class to have exclusive rights to certain roles in the trinity. e.g. Templar should be the only healer, DK the only tank etc. I think they've succeeded for the most part in that, it's not perfect and it never will be because they also want to preserve the uniqueness of each class.

That said I would like to see some sort of prestige class unlock or specialization to further develop my character.

ComboBreaker88 · May 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Anyone else notice that so many of the recent discussions are about how overpowered nightblades are (in just one picture lol!), or how underwhelming something or other about blah blah blah is.

So this is my idea on how to make the elder scrolls online into an elder scrolls game, in that you can choose to play anything. In the process it will undermine ALL of the whining about class balance, and even though it will seem pretty drastic, it really can't be that hard to implement.

Get rid of classes... and instead we choose any three skill lines at character creation.

The current system of grouping three skill lines together and calling it a class seems sensible, until you wonder what dawn's wrath and spears have in common (picking on the templars). So much of the dark brotherhood patch is about making each class have valid stamina options, which is applaudable but clearly isn't going far enough for everyone. By getting rid of classes and giving everyone every option then no-one can complain that their class is unbalanced, only there choice of skill lines was.

It gives us the option to create brilliant or useless individual ways to play, but if you like your current set-up then just stick with the skill lines you have.

Please discuss this as angrily as you can, because I don't see a drawback, and I'm sure ZOS would benefit from adding a class respec scroll to the crown store.

If there was a disagree button I would have clicked it for this post.