Sanct16 wrote: »

@Jules
The problem with just listing Minor and Major Buffs is that it doesnt take the unique class passives into consideration which are more important than some Minor/Major Buffs. Nightblades get extra crit damage, 8% more Magicka, 20% (?) extra recoveries and have the best resource managment tool (siphoning attacks) which allows them to run 800 magicka reg on a max dmg build. That's why NB is the best pvp group-DD - not because they have some extra Major Buffs.

However if you want to argue based on Major/Minor Buffs there is no information gain in listing the same buff several times; for example for Nightblades you list Major Expedition 5 times. If anything you should only list the different buffs.
Another thing that has to be considered is whether buffs are unique to the class or can be gained easily via weapon skills: I'd argue that having access to Major Mending is better than Major Expedition.
There's a couple more things but I guess you see where its going.

All in all I agree that NBs are OP atm but I cant agree with this spreadsheet.

If nightblades get major mending then they might as well just delete all other classes and everyone plays nightblade

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Jules
The problem with just listing Minor and Major Buffs is that it doesnt take the unique class passives into consideration which are more important than some Minor/Major Buffs. Nightblades get extra crit damage, 8% more Magicka, 20% (?) extra recoveries and have the best resource managment tool (siphoning attacks) which allows them to run 800 magicka reg on a max dmg build. That's why NB is the best pvp group-DD - not because they have some extra Major Buffs.

However if you want to argue based on Major/Minor Buffs there is no information gain in listing the same buff several times; for example for Nightblades you list Major Expedition 5 times. If anything you should only list the different buffs.
Another thing that has to be considered is whether buffs are unique to the class or can be gained easily via weapon skills: I'd argue that having access to Major Mending is better than Major Expedition.
There's a couple more things but I guess you see where its going.

All in all I agree that NBs are OP atm but I cant agree with this spreadsheet.

I'm continuing working on the spread sheet to compare each classes sustain/hard cc/soft cc capabilties/damage potential and max stat passives. So yes, it is incomplete but the thing is, NB excels at in nearly all of these departments due to extremely cohesive skill and passive interaction.

And you can say that I shouldn't have listed major expedition 5 times for Nightblade. Perhaps instead, Nightblade shouldn't have 5 different skills that give them access to major expedition and I wouldn't need to. (ESPECIALLY when you consider that templar and sorc have 0 access to major expedition through class skills and DK gets a measley 2s on chains.)

Can we get the nightblade list in cornflower blue ?

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to critique the obvious bias to the "list", but reality is you really need to look at how many are realistically in use with 10 ability slots.

Furthermore all those buffs are really split between stamina and magicka.

A list cannot be biased when it simply lists facts without opinion.
These are the facts, these are the major and minor skills that each class receives, these are the stam skills available on each class. That is a FACT. It is not biased whatsoever.

If anything, it would be more biased to say "well take into consideration xyz...." No.
These are the major and minor buffs that every class has access to. Of course we all have access to the other skill trees but these are the toolkits each class receives to work with.

Creating a list of all available buffs and debuffs isn't anything but a "nerf nightblades" attempt, which is obviously biased.

Fact is that no nightblade could ever possibly have even a fraction of them available at one time.

So what does "the list" prove?

Proves irrefutably that NB's have more access to buffs than any other class. More options = more ability to build the way you choose. And if you truly think it would be difficult to obtain "even a fraction" of these buffs consider-

main bar- ambush, surprise attack, mass hysteria, power extraction, rally incap strike
off bar - piercing mark, double take, relentless focus, vigor, dark cloak , soul tether


yeah... i think not.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to critique the obvious bias to the "list", but reality is you really need to look at how many are realistically in use with 10 ability slots.

Furthermore all those buffs are really split between stamina and magicka.

A list cannot be biased when it simply lists facts without opinion.
These are the facts, these are the major and minor skills that each class receives, these are the stam skills available on each class. That is a FACT. It is not biased whatsoever.

If anything, it would be more biased to say "well take into consideration xyz...." No.
These are the major and minor buffs that every class has access to. Of course we all have access to the other skill trees but these are the toolkits each class receives to work with.

Creating a list of all available buffs and debuffs isn't anything but a "nerf nightblades" attempt, which is obviously biased.

Fact is that no nightblade could ever possibly have even a fraction of them available at one time.

So what does "the list" prove?

Proves irrefutably that NB's have more access to buffs than any other class. More options = more ability to build the way you choose. And if you truly think it would be difficult to obtain "even a fraction" of these buffs consider-

main bar- ambush, surprise attack, mass hysteria, power extraction, rally incap strike
off bar - piercing mark, double take, relentless focus, vigor, dark cloak , soul tether


yeah... i think not.

Toxic players are toxic forum posters.

That's the only thing it proves.

PS find a nightblade that would even be effective with that setup lol.

You can get nasty and attack me as a person all you want. This isn't about getting personal it's about the truth. And the truth is NB has more access to damage, survivability, and sustain than any other class.

Truth of the matter is that wouldn't be an ideal setup but it honestly wouldn't be that bad either.

You'd have a gap closer thats also an empower a stun and snare, a single target stam ability, a hard aoe cc, static Major Resolve and Major Ward, 2 heals, cheap ulti that stuns and does good damage, 20% dodge chance, major expedition, major fracture from both SA and piercing mark, major breach from piercing mark, 8% increased damage, 10% stam regen and procced assassin's scourge from LA's, an escape that also gives you minor protection and a stun from soul tether.

While I agree NB's are a fuller class compared to the other 3, the spreadsheet does take only a quick snapshot at the available buffs/debuffs available.

The title does suggest a nerf . I'd maybe call this thread "class buff list".

But it's a good start on how ZOS can see how to bring the 3classes to the NB's lvl of Balance, not reduce NB's.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to critique the obvious bias to the "list", but reality is you really need to look at how many are realistically in use with 10 ability slots.

Furthermore all those buffs are really split between stamina and magicka.

A list cannot be biased when it simply lists facts without opinion.
These are the facts, these are the major and minor skills that each class receives, these are the stam skills available on each class. That is a FACT. It is not biased whatsoever.

If anything, it would be more biased to say "well take into consideration xyz...." No.
These are the major and minor buffs that every class has access to. Of course we all have access to the other skill trees but these are the toolkits each class receives to work with.

Creating a list of all available buffs and debuffs isn't anything but a "nerf nightblades" attempt, which is obviously biased.

Fact is that no nightblade could ever possibly have even a fraction of them available at one time.

So what does "the list" prove?

Proves irrefutably that NB's have more access to buffs than any other class. More options = more ability to build the way you choose. And if you truly think it would be difficult to obtain "even a fraction" of these buffs consider-

main bar- ambush, surprise attack, mass hysteria, power extraction, rally incap strike
off bar - piercing mark, double take, relentless focus, vigor, dark cloak , soul tether


yeah... i think not.

Toxic players are toxic forum posters.

That's the only thing it proves.

PS find a nightblade that would even be effective with that setup lol.

You can get nasty and attack me as a person all you want. This isn't about getting personal it's about the truth. And the truth is NB has more access to damage, survivability, and sustain than any other class.

Truth of the matter is that wouldn't be an ideal setup but it honestly wouldn't be that bad either.

You'd have a gap closer thats also an empower a stun and snare, a single target stam ability, a hard aoe cc, 2 heals, cheap ulti that stuns and does good damage, 20% dodge chance, major expedition, major fracture from both SA and piercing mark, major breach from piercing mark, 10% stam regen and procced assassin's scourge from LA's, an escape that also gives you minor protection and a stun from soul tether.

I don't think there is any reasoning with you, and I only stated what I know from you in game and how logic and reason will obviously not be effective with you.

Why don't you put a best possible buffs in one build together for the other classes and see what they would be lacking versus the nightblade?

Because that would also be a biased comparison. It's taking the best builds for this patch and trying to suggest the classes are indeed fair/balanced when those too are snapshots of how each class fits in the pvp totem-pole.

Best picture would be a pro/con list, a strong build example and a weak build example. Also show which weapon lines, diseases, armor lines, etc benefit the synergies for each class/race combo.

In the end it comes down to how instant-cast abilities rise above the effectivness of DOTS/Channels in pvp. The class that embraces/synergies with quick AC attacks will burst and win.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to critique the obvious bias to the "list", but reality is you really need to look at how many are realistically in use with 10 ability slots.

Furthermore all those buffs are really split between stamina and magicka.

A list cannot be biased when it simply lists facts without opinion.
These are the facts, these are the major and minor skills that each class receives, these are the stam skills available on each class. That is a FACT. It is not biased whatsoever.

If anything, it would be more biased to say "well take into consideration xyz...." No.
These are the major and minor buffs that every class has access to. Of course we all have access to the other skill trees but these are the toolkits each class receives to work with.

Creating a list of all available buffs and debuffs isn't anything but a "nerf nightblades" attempt, which is obviously biased.

Fact is that no nightblade could ever possibly have even a fraction of them available at one time.

So what does "the list" prove?

Proves irrefutably that NB's have more access to buffs than any other class. More options = more ability to build the way you choose. And if you truly think it would be difficult to obtain "even a fraction" of these buffs consider-

main bar- ambush, surprise attack, mass hysteria, power extraction, rally incap strike
off bar - piercing mark, double take, relentless focus, vigor, dark cloak , soul tether


yeah... i think not.

Toxic players are toxic forum posters.

That's the only thing it proves.

PS find a nightblade that would even be effective with that setup lol.

You can get nasty and attack me as a person all you want. This isn't about getting personal it's about the truth. And the truth is NB has more access to damage, survivability, and sustain than any other class.

Truth of the matter is that wouldn't be an ideal setup but it honestly wouldn't be that bad either.

You'd have a gap closer thats also an empower a stun and snare, a single target stam ability, a hard aoe cc, 2 heals, cheap ulti that stuns and does good damage, 20% dodge chance, major expedition, major fracture from both SA and piercing mark, major breach from piercing mark, 10% stam regen and procced assassin's scourge from LA's, an escape that also gives you minor protection and a stun from soul tether.

I don't think there is any reasoning with you, and I only stated what I know from you in game and how logic and reason will obviously not be effective with you.

Why don't you put a best possible buffs in one build together for the other classes and see what they would be lacking versus the nightblade?

If you cannot understand that a class with this much access to major/minor buffs has a distinct advantage over their counterparts then I don't even know what to tell you. You are entirely missing the point. The point is not that you could not feasibly slot every single skill that gives you these buffs. The point is that through slotting each of your already very viable skills you receive huge buffs to them on top of their already good damage. In addition to this, the ACCESSIBILITY of these buffs is much higher to NB's than to other classes.
Examples-

Ambush is a stamina gap closer with no minimum distance, an empower, a stun AND a snare.

Surprise attack is a stamina single target that also gives major fracture.
Fear is a hard cc of 3 targets, a snare, AND inflicts minor maim.
Using fear or surprise attack, both offensive skills, gives the NB Major Resolve and Major Ward passively- something that all other classes need a defensive ability to acquire.

But please, by all means, continue to try to take personal shots at me. It simply makes your argument appear all the more fragile and your defense of an imbalanced class seem all the more hilarious.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to critique the obvious bias to the "list", but reality is you really need to look at how many are realistically in use with 10 ability slots.

Furthermore all those buffs are really split between stamina and magicka.

A list cannot be biased when it simply lists facts without opinion.
These are the facts, these are the major and minor skills that each class receives, these are the stam skills available on each class. That is a FACT. It is not biased whatsoever.

If anything, it would be more biased to say "well take into consideration xyz...." No.
These are the major and minor buffs that every class has access to. Of course we all have access to the other skill trees but these are the toolkits each class receives to work with.

Creating a list of all available buffs and debuffs isn't anything but a "nerf nightblades" attempt, which is obviously biased.

Fact is that no nightblade could ever possibly have even a fraction of them available at one time.

So what does "the list" prove?

Proves irrefutably that NB's have more access to buffs than any other class. More options = more ability to build the way you choose. And if you truly think it would be difficult to obtain "even a fraction" of these buffs consider-

main bar- ambush, surprise attack, mass hysteria, power extraction, rally incap strike
off bar - piercing mark, double take, relentless focus, vigor, dark cloak , soul tether


yeah... i think not.

Toxic players are toxic forum posters.

That's the only thing it proves.

PS find a nightblade that would even be effective with that setup lol.

You can get nasty and attack me as a person all you want. This isn't about getting personal it's about the truth. And the truth is NB has more access to damage, survivability, and sustain than any other class.

Truth of the matter is that wouldn't be an ideal setup but it honestly wouldn't be that bad either.

You'd have a gap closer thats also an empower a stun and snare, a single target stam ability, a hard aoe cc, 2 heals, cheap ulti that stuns and does good damage, 20% dodge chance, major expedition, major fracture from both SA and piercing mark, major breach from piercing mark, 10% stam regen and procced assassin's scourge from LA's, an escape that also gives you minor protection and a stun from soul tether.

I don't think there is any reasoning with you, and I only stated what I know from you in game and how logic and reason will obviously not be effective with you.

Why don't you put a best possible buffs in one build together for the other classes and see what they would be lacking versus the nightblade?

Because that would also be a biased comparison. It's taking the best builds for this patch and trying to suggest the classes are indeed fair/balanced when those too are snapshots of how each class fits in the pvp totem-pole.

Best picture would be a pro/con list, a strong build example and a weak build example. Also show which weapon lines, diseases, armor lines, etc benefit the synergies for each class/race combo.

In the end it comes down to how instant-cast abilities rise above the effectivness of DOTS/Channels in pvp. The class that embraces/synergies with quick AC attacks will burst and win.

That sort of was my point.

I think you could "generate" a huge buff list loadout for every class.

It's focusing on the trees despite the forest.

I will say this: From stealth nightblades are by far the most OP class. Out of stealth... probably not.

There it is. Counter det pots Mage light aoe.

joe.smith21b14_ESO wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to critique the obvious bias to the "list", but reality is you really need to look at how many are realistically in use with 10 ability slots.

Furthermore all those buffs are really split between stamina and magicka.

A list cannot be biased when it simply lists facts without opinion.
These are the facts, these are the major and minor skills that each class receives, these are the stam skills available on each class. That is a FACT. It is not biased whatsoever.

If anything, it would be more biased to say "well take into consideration xyz...." No.
These are the major and minor buffs that every class has access to. Of course we all have access to the other skill trees but these are the toolkits each class receives to work with.

Creating a list of all available buffs and debuffs isn't anything but a "nerf nightblades" attempt, which is obviously biased.

Fact is that no nightblade could ever possibly have even a fraction of them available at one time.

So what does "the list" prove?

Proves irrefutably that NB's have more access to buffs than any other class. More options = more ability to build the way you choose. And if you truly think it would be difficult to obtain "even a fraction" of these buffs consider-

main bar- ambush, surprise attack, mass hysteria, power extraction, rally incap strike
off bar - piercing mark, double take, relentless focus, vigor, dark cloak , soul tether


yeah... i think not.

Toxic players are toxic forum posters.

That's the only thing it proves.

PS find a nightblade that would even be effective with that setup lol.

You can get nasty and attack me as a person all you want. This isn't about getting personal it's about the truth. And the truth is NB has more access to damage, survivability, and sustain than any other class.

Truth of the matter is that wouldn't be an ideal setup but it honestly wouldn't be that bad either.

You'd have a gap closer thats also an empower a stun and snare, a single target stam ability, a hard aoe cc, 2 heals, cheap ulti that stuns and does good damage, 20% dodge chance, major expedition, major fracture from both SA and piercing mark, major breach from piercing mark, 10% stam regen and procced assassin's scourge from LA's, an escape that also gives you minor protection and a stun from soul tether.

I don't think there is any reasoning with you, and I only stated what I know from you in game and how logic and reason will obviously not be effective with you.

Why don't you put a best possible buffs in one build together for the other classes and see what they would be lacking versus the nightblade?

Because that would also be a biased comparison. It's taking the best builds for this patch and trying to suggest the classes are indeed fair/balanced when those too are snapshots of how each class fits in the pvp totem-pole.

Best picture would be a pro/con list, a strong build example and a weak build example. Also show which weapon lines, diseases, armor lines, etc benefit the synergies for each class/race combo.

In the end it comes down to how instant-cast abilities rise above the effectivness of DOTS/Channels in pvp. The class that embraces/synergies with quick AC attacks will burst and win.

That sort of was my point.

I think you could "generate" a huge buff list loadout for every class.

It's focusing on the trees despite the forest.

I will say this: From stealth nightblades are by far the most OP class. Out of stealth... probably not.

There it is. Counter det pots Mage light aoe.

Truth is those things do very little to counter a NB from stealth that engages you from range with ambush or a bow heavy attack ;p

This chart kinda just shows accessibility to buffs which is important but it isn't the entire picture. What really blows my mind is: People see this kind of information and don't get mad at ZOS, they trash talk the class

If you continue to make charts I would suggest color coding the stam/magicka morphs that are independent from the base skill, would be interesting to see.

zyk wrote: »

It is only useful as an excuse for stupid and biased people to trash the NB class. Essentially, Jules is Trumping us.

.........what?....

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Toxic players are toxic forum posters.

That's the only thing it proves.

PS find a nightblade that would even be effective with that setup lol.

@Jules is a toxic player? Please tell me your kidding, you have to be...im not even going to remotely entertain that your even serious. She has brought up very valid points here, these personal attacks towards her are very childish. She has also invested far more time into making vidoes of how to beat VWGT and VICP when they first came out, along with a plethora of other stuff, and you have to tip your hat to her for investing the time to do all of that.

there is such a thing as class....you can disagree with someone respectfully without being venomous....has it really come to this?

[snip]
This chart doesn't show that they are OP. It just shows that NB is definitely the most balanced class in regards to build variety. Other classes seem to be pigeon holed into certain builds *cough SORC*. ZOS should see this and instead of nerfing other classes and builds, they should try and bring them up to par with the top dog. I main a MagDK and while I think I am OP at times, I know I can do the same thing on a NB but be even better. Next patch my V10 nb will be max level and blood will spill from all corners of Cyrodiil...but I will still feel like a scrub because the class is too easy and I will always go back to my MagDK and continue to feed on the blood of all the new MLGPRO Nightblades that will plague Cyrodiil .

Keep being a savage Jules (can't tag idk why). Cyrodiil needs a thorough cleansing of all these NBs in the coming month. My hands are anxiously awaiting all the free AP I will be getting as I am sure yours will be too!

edited to remove quote of removed post

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Why Dragonknights, Templars, and Sorcerers are underpowered in 1 picture. Nightblades are really good in so many facets of game - casual questing, VMSA, solo PvP, group PvE, group PvP. ZOS should be spending day and night researching Nightblades and saying to themselves, "Why are Nightblades so versatile and balanced? How can we use what we have learned from Nightblades to improve other classes without just turning them into Nightblades?"

And I think this chart actually gets us a bit closer to why Nightblades are such a good class. And how you could improve other classes without turning them into Nightblades. Basically, more and better access to buffs. Class passives that are just about always useful instead of niche or gimmicky. More stam morphs. And so on.

This +10000, thank you

So ... You want more passives and ability variations for the other classes ? Ok . No problems with that here . It just started off sounding nerfy .