Do not buff heavy armor.

Lynx7386 · April 2016

As I keep posting in these threads:

-Give heavy armor resistance to spell/armor penetration so that those effects are not as powerful against it.
-Increase healing received for heavy armor even further (7% is not enough).
-Increase the max health boost for each piece of heavy armor, so that 7 heavy winds up being 21-28% extra health.
-Change the resource return to a percentage of your max health returned when taking damage, with a cooldown of 2 seconds instead of 4 to match up to normal regeneration speed.
-Change immovable brute to grant major brutality and give a passive weapon damage bonus a la flawless dawnbreaker while slotted.

These are changes that will help heavy armor compete in both tanking and damage roles. It will never be as good for pure DPS builds as light or medium, but it should be able to promote an offtank-dps build, or a pvp damage build.

STEVIL · April 2016

-Change immovable brute to grant major brutality and give a passive weapon damage bonus a la flawless dawnbreaker while slotted.

keep in mind the armor active dont require armor worn so, after a few runs with training ha, you just gave those ma dps guys a pre-fight shield wiyh maj brute added and a passive damage boost.

They may send you cookies.

Vaoh · April 2016

Yup. We wouldn't want to make Heavy Armor actually worth it now would we?

(You have to be a troll to make a thread like this)

Armitas · April 2016

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Wrong. Ha is not fully penetrated. in addition When you stack all points into hardy, elemental resistance, and crit resistance coupled with ha your a beast.

Penetration is not the same as reduce armor by. 10% penetration is -10% mitigation flatly. There is no residual. In my 5 Gold Heavy reinforced (- small) I have 20.9% physical resist. 1 Grand Maul will reduce that to .9%

___________________________

I have been thinking about it and I really do think it needs some sort of passive damage (Physical AND Spell). There are sets that have damage on them, but the passives don't come with anything to keep your sustain up like they do in LA/MA. You typically have to fix that with the armor set or drinks and that lowers your damage even more. On top of that you have the battle spirit buffs reducing your already low damage by 50%. Battle spirit has really creeped hard onto heavy armor which provides no inherent damage. It's going to be very tricky to balance it but I really do think there is some room for that here because it doesn't just lack damage on it, you have to lose damage from sets and damage stats just to overcome the weight of it.

Perhaps a passive that buffed your food or drink by X% would do the trick. This would either buff your damage or sustain which would allow you to get what you lack from your set pieces.

hrothbern · April 2016

CyrusArya wrote: »

While I'm neutral on the matter, one thing wroebel said in regards to HA in the last ESO live is that they have to tread carefully in balancing it. And he is absolutely right. It's a decision that can and probably will effect the entire meta if done right. Now here's the thing, while I'm OK with heavy armor being buffed in general, it needs to be done in such a way that buffs tanks without being exploitable by DPS builds.

I can tell you right now, some of the suggestions being thrown around are completely off base and would lead to terribly broken builds. Double all passive values for example? Ya ok. Good luck fighting a 5 heavy magicka Templar if they push that through

I agree that buffing HA needs to be done with great care. Overshooting the buff will create OP builds.
I think it needs to be done stepwise. Buffing some. wait and see. Buffing again to tweak. Wait and see.
But if we all know that HA needs buffing in general, then buffing HA needs to be done and OP effects that arise from buffing too much because of some niche extreme builds......
Should that prevent the general needed buff on HA ? or should that lead to changing the supposed OP synergy of buffing HA for some extreme niche builds ?
I think the latter must be adressed.
Whereby noted that some of the possible HA OP builds will in fact not be OP, but will seem to be only OP because the majority of PVP players have no ready combat approach to adress strongly played HA builds, especially in the chaos of PVP. But THAT should imo not be a reason to keep HA in general underwhelming. THAT is a L2P issue.

Reading through all the posts, I see all the time posts that assume that HA is for Tanks.... I disagree.
IF a true taunting tank does well with HA....
Does that implicate that using HA means that you MUST be a Tank ???
That is a logic like: A dog is an animal, therefore an animal MUST be a dog !

HA should imo be nothing else as one of the many ways to increase your Damage reduction.
Once you have chosen HA, you can rig it up all the way to more damage mitigation with CP's, traits, weapon type, jewelry enchants and armor sets...
But you can also rig it up to more DPS output or more HPS output or more support.

THAT freedom, is what this game has been profiled for originally,
that freedom of choice how we compose DPS/HPS/support output versus Mitigation, is what we should have.

Rohaus · April 2016

Resource management is the biggest issue with HA in the games current state.

Autolycus · April 2016

Just revisiting this thread after being away for a few days. I see some really good points about HA and the need for it to be approached carefully, so as not to sway the balance of power and render other (predominantly pvp) builds unreasonably less effective as a result.

There is a pretty substantial difference between how HA is used in pvp and pve. I have, and currently still, run a full 7/7 HA build in cyrodiil, and I can say from a considerable amount of personal experience that it's not nearly as bad in pvp as people make it seem. The truth of the matter lies in the discrepancy between what HA can do relative to LA and MA. As far as pvp balance goes, that's the primary concern that people are addressing here, not the fact that buffing HA automatically makes the other armor types (namely LA) less useful or useless altogether. In pve it's totally different, and I see people commenting here about how LA builds will just hands-down switch to HA, as if running 5 pieces of LA will suddenly be useless. Unless they change how LA works altogether, this simply cannot be true.

I'd like to revisit the concept of tanks in cryodiil. Time and time again I hear people suggest that a tank should not be "unkillable." I use this term loosely, because in reality there is always something one can do to break down a tank, with the most obvious and simplest method of doing so simply being sheer numbers. But let's look at this a different way: If a tank is "unkillable" in ESO, they certainly are not doing any reasonable amount of damage, and their healing potential is extremely limited, save for maybe self-healing (depending on set choice and build). So an unkillable tank cannot reasonably kill others except in unique circumstances (or without giving up a major source of mitigation), meaning their utility is limited almost exclusively to a group setting.

What exactly is wrong with that? If group A takes on group B, and both of them have an "unkillable" tank, what's the problem? A good group will work together, will have a reasonable level of diversity and balance, and will communicate effectively and work together. A pvp tank will put what is necessary into keeping themselves alive, else they will sink their resources into utility and support, which is how pvp tanking should be.

Heavy armor in pve is really not that far off from where it should be. I've commented a bit on this already, but I'd suggest that the primary area of HA that needs to be addressed is resource management, preferably in the form of reduced block cost or resource returns not tied to recovery (i.e. a proc% giving a flat value of stam/mag back).

PURPLE245 · April 2016

only think i can say is why would you even post this.....and if they buff heavy armor and everyone starts using heavy armor that wont mean they buffed it right that mean they made it op people are asking for a buff to get heavy armor on par with med and light armor not to make it op why is it that peopel ask for a something to be buffed everyone thinks they are asking to make it op.....

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2016

PURPLE245 wrote: »

only think i can say is why would you even post this.....and if they buff heavy armor and everyone starts using heavy armor that wont mean they buffed it right that mean they made it op people are asking for a buff to get heavy armor on par with med and light armor not to make it op why is it that peopel ask for a something to be buffed everyone thinks they are asking to make it op.....

Exactly players want HA buffed not broken like at PC launch but some how the guy thinks that what the HA buffs are gonna be but that brings back to other points that HA make you defensive and will never compare to raw DPS bonuses like LA and MA give.

Armitas · April 2016

PTS notes for heavy armor were just teased.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.

hrothbern · April 2016

Armitas wrote: »

PTS notes for heavy armor were just teased.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.

Yessss
It happened !

We have to find out together how well this resource buff for HA will make the gap between HA and LA,MA smaller.

But I guess this is the most neutral way to enhance HA, with no risk on unkillable OP effects on PVP. So a good start !

Black Rose will benefit as well

Armitas · April 2016

Well I am a very happy camper. So excited right now, a lot of new traits too. Penetration is still there but at least for weapons it's a flat amount rather than a percentage.

Heavy Armor
Bracing:
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.

Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.

Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.

Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.

Rapid Mending:
This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.

Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%

This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.

exeeter702 · April 2016

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is pretty good currently. It mitigates a lot of damage. It does what it suppose to do. Mitigates damage and provides tanking. If you buff it everyone will rock ha and become unkillable and la will become obsolete. I think it's pretty balanced. Think about it. What incentive would anyone have to wear la if dps is mitigated beyond what it is now? Everyone will just run ha with regen eq and it now become a resource/sustainability yawn fest because dps had been nuetralized. Why does ha need a buff? Hell I only use 5/2 la/ha/ pieces and damage mitigation is night and day compared to 7/0 la. That's with 2 pieces!

Heavy Armor
Bracing:
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.

Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.

Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.

LegacyDM · April 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is pretty good currently. It mitigates a lot of damage. It does what it suppose to do. Mitigates damage and provides tanking. If you buff it everyone will rock ha and become unkillable and la will become obsolete. I think it's pretty balanced. Think about it. What incentive would anyone have to wear la if dps is mitigated beyond what it is now? Everyone will just run ha with regen eq and it now become a resource/sustainability yawn fest because dps had been nuetralized. Why does ha need a buff? Hell I only use 5/2 la/ha/ pieces and damage mitigation is night and day compared to 7/0 la. That's with 2 pieces!

Heavy Armor
Bracing:
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.

Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.

Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.

Rise of the magicka nb sap tank.rise of the dk vamp. Rise of the temp healer vamp tank. I warned you guys. There is no way to buff ha without it creating a flotm.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

PURPLE245 wrote: »

only think i can say is why would you even post this.....and if they buff heavy armor and everyone starts using heavy armor that wont mean they buffed it right that mean they made it op people are asking for a buff to get heavy armor on par with med and light armor not to make it op why is it that peopel ask for a something to be buffed everyone thinks they are asking to make it op.....

Exactly players want HA buffed not broken like at PC launch but some how the guy thinks that what the HA buffs are gonna be but that brings back to other points that HA make you defensive and will never compare to raw DPS bonuses like LA and MA give.

My argument was ha was on par with other armors. It did what it was suppose to. Mitigate damage and be tanky. People want more so Zos gave in. They want sustainment and or dps. i predict rise of the sap tank once again.

Autolycus · April 2016

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is pretty good currently. It mitigates a lot of damage. It does what it suppose to do. Mitigates damage and provides tanking. If you buff it everyone will rock ha and become unkillable and la will become obsolete. I think it's pretty balanced. Think about it. What incentive would anyone have to wear la if dps is mitigated beyond what it is now? Everyone will just run ha with regen eq and it now become a resource/sustainability yawn fest because dps had been nuetralized. Why does ha need a buff? Hell I only use 5/2 la/ha/ pieces and damage mitigation is night and day compared to 7/0 la. That's with 2 pieces!

Heavy Armor
Bracing:
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.

Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.

Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.

Rise of the magicka nb sap tank.rise of the dk vamp. Rise of the temp healer vamp tank. I warned you guys. There is no way to buff ha without it creating a flotm.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

PURPLE245 wrote: »

only think i can say is why would you even post this.....and if they buff heavy armor and everyone starts using heavy armor that wont mean they buffed it right that mean they made it op people are asking for a buff to get heavy armor on par with med and light armor not to make it op why is it that peopel ask for a something to be buffed everyone thinks they are asking to make it op.....

Exactly players want HA buffed not broken like at PC launch but some how the guy thinks that what the HA buffs are gonna be but that brings back to other points that HA make you defensive and will never compare to raw DPS bonuses like LA and MA give.

My argument was ha was on par with other armors. It did what it was suppose to. Mitigate damage and be tanky. People want more so Zos gave in. They want sustainment and or dps. i predict rise of the sap tank once again.

Which would imply the sap tank has been gone. It's been here the whole time. It was never weak to begin with.

Silver_Strider · April 2016

This thread is either a troll, very bad, or reverse psychology.

If troll, you failed.

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Rise of the magicka nb sap tank.rise of the dk vamp. Rise of the temp healer vamp tank. I warned you guys. There is no way to buff ha without it creating a flotm.

How is making people want to tank a bad thing exactly? There are hardly enough tanks in the game as is so why are you complaining if more people decide to make them? Do you enjoy the hour long queue times for Dungeons or are you just upset that you can't just shred thru that 1 guy in PvP that is taking your normally 20k Crystal Frags and laughing it off?

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

My argument was ha was on par with other armors. It did what it was suppose to. Mitigate damage and be tanky. People want more so Zos gave in. They want sustainment and or dps. i predict rise of the sap tank once again.

Except it didn't do that. Light and Medium Armor could be just as tanky as HA but they proved significantly more advantages than HA could ever hope to match. Sap tanks are still a thing and while this change might make them appear more often, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone and their mother is going to re-roll as a sap tank in PvP.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · April 2016

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is pretty good currently. It mitigates a lot of damage. It does what it suppose to do. Mitigates damage and provides tanking. If you buff it everyone will rock ha and become unkillable and la will become obsolete. I think it's pretty balanced. Think about it. What incentive would anyone have to wear la if dps is mitigated beyond what it is now? Everyone will just run ha with regen eq and it now become a resource/sustainability yawn fest because dps had been nuetralized. Why does ha need a buff? Hell I only use 5/2 la/ha/ pieces and damage mitigation is night and day compared to 7/0 la. That's with 2 pieces!

This post is 3 feet of wrong icing on a 10-foot-thick wrong sheet cake covered with wrong sprinkles and a wrong cherry on top.

Served with a side of wrong ice cream on a wrong plate at a wrong party.

LegacyDM · April 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

This thread is either a troll, very bad, or reverse psychology.

If troll, you failed.

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Rise of the magicka nb sap tank.rise of the dk vamp. Rise of the temp healer vamp tank. I warned you guys. There is no way to buff ha without it creating a flotm.

How is making people want to tank a bad thing exactly? There are hardly enough tanks in the game as is so why are you complaining if more people decide to make them? Do you enjoy the hour long queue times for Dungeons or are you just upset that you can't just shred thru that 1 guy in PvP that is taking your normally 20k Crystal Frags and laughing it off?

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

My argument was ha was on par with other armors. It did what it was suppose to. Mitigate damage and be tanky. People want more so Zos gave in. They want sustainment and or dps. i predict rise of the sap tank once again.

Except it didn't do that. Light and Medium Armor could be just as tanky as HA but they proved significantly more advantages than HA could ever hope to match. Sap tanks are still a thing and while this change might make them appear more often, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone and their mother is going to re-roll as a sap tank in PvP.

Not a troll. I've experimented with ha in its current form. It's not bad and does what it's suppose to do. It provides an increase to spell resistence. It's adds significant armor increase. When you gold out ha and have 501 cps in hardy, elemental resistence, and crit resistence your a beast. It tanks. What people want is more rsources and more dps because they want their cake and eat it too. Zos caved. Are you kidding me? 275% magicka stamina gain while being hit? Increase to health regen and increase health? Increase weapon damage when hit? Do you people not see what this is going to do? Magicka dks are rediculous as is. Now they just need to stand in the middle of a 1vx and dominate. Sap essence NB? Just spam sap essence in 1vx. Templar? Spam jabs and Bol while getting stronger. Throw vamp into the mix and now tanks have a getaway to heal. Tanks will be impossible to take down, thus supporting my original hypothesis that this will neuter la. I guess time will tell. When people start raging that self healing tank builds are op on the forums, i can say I was right.

Roymachine · April 2016

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

When people start raging that self healing tank builds are op on the forums, i can say I was right.

People are going to complain on the forums about anything new that they have't learned to adapt to yet. Introducing new builds only adds diversity and gets more people off the current fotm. Will there be more HA in PvP? Aboslutely. Will there be more HA than LA and MA? I highly doubt it.

Autolycus · April 2016

Roymachine wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

When people start raging that self healing tank builds are op on the forums, i can say I was right.

People are going to complain on the forums about anything new that they have't learned to adapt to yet. Introducing new builds only adds diversity and gets more people off the current fotm. Will there be more HA in PvP? Aboslutely. Will there be more HA than LA and MA? I highly doubt it.

Just to add to this, with which I agree, I'd like to point out that self-healing tank builds already exist. I'm one of them and people complain about me all the time. It doesn't just take gear and CP to do this effectively, but also experience and a broader understanding of each class.

Even if the OP is "right" (which seems to be all that matters) and more people start using heavy armor and tanking in cyrodiil, that doesn't mean they're going to be good at it. I strongly believe that there are not enough tanks in cyrodiil specifically because everything in this game is so damage-oriented. The fact that HA is now more appealing to people doesn't make the game less appealing or pvp less interesting. If anything, it contributes to build diversity, and I have nothing against seeing more tanks in pvp. And for the record, back when HA DK vamp tanks were the FoTM and they literally littered cyrodiil, I was still burning them down single-handedly. Knowing your opponent goes a lot farther than simply having gold gear and CP.

It wasn't that long ago that I was on these same forums preaching about how we need more tanks in cyrodiil. There are many things that would encourage this, and the changes to HA and Guard (alliance war support) are prime examples of suggestions I made to accomplish this.

Armitas · April 2016

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

What people want is more rsources and more dps because they want their cake and eat it too. Zos caved. Are you kidding me? 275% magicka stamina gain while being hit?

You can't tell it from my link but all skill costs were increased by 5.7%, stat killing poisons were added, and block cost reduction was removed from the set because...reasons. So this may or may not represent a buff, I don't know yet, it might just break even.

Block cost reduction now comes form armor traits.