Is there anything insensitve at all about the way ESO portrays elements of RL cultures?

Trikfut · April 2016

I personally would feel pride if my culture was used in fictional work. It shows someone actually took the time and effort to learn about it.

Also there are so many games that are based off of real life things even if they are fictionaal stories. It's so that people have something they can relate to and to make the game more appealing to the eye and mind. It's not to insult anybody at all.

therealfriday13th · April 2016

Feynn wrote: »

Hello everyone,

I'd like to raise a thorny issue that has been concerning me for a while, and on which I would like to receive feedback from the community as well as possibly from the developers. Let me make it clear, however, that I would be very grateful if people could please abstain from offensive comments or attacks on something they might perceive as "too politically correct".

As the title of the thread indicates, my issue is with cultural appropriation. If you are not familiar with the concept, you can find plenty of definitions on the internet. A simple definition is "the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture", especially when those elements are taken from a culture that has a history of being oppressed.

I absolutely love the Elder Scrolls and especially the Elder Scrolls Online, but there are some elements in it which caused me to ask myself whether we should be concerned with cultural appropriation. It's a genuine question, and because of that I would especially like to receive answers from members of cultural groups which might feel disrespected, and by the developers if this is a question that they considered as well.

Let me give a few examples. Consider the Argonians, and how so many aestethical elements in their portrayal are derived from pre-Columbian cultures which were destroyed by European colonists. Consider stealable items like the "Kothringi Dream Catcher" or the "Silken Dream Catcher", which maybe could be seen as appropriation of a part of indigenous American culture. Consider also some of the ways in which the Redguards are depicted (for example some of the Crown Store costumes, which could be seen as cultural appropriation on things like "belly dancing"). There could certainly be more instances, I am not trying to provide a comprehensive list, and I am aware that through my own ignorance I might have misunderstood some things (e.g. Japanese culture and Akaviri designs? Reachmen and Celts?)

I am afraid that this sort of elements might be considered disrespectful and hurtful to people who are connected to those cultures which are used as sources of inspiration for TES lore. I doubt there are many Nordic people who feel offended by the similarities between Nord and Viking culture, but then again the Vikings were not really an oppressed cultural group (were they?) On the other hand, indigenous peoples of the Americas might feel resentment at seeing part of their cultures included into a fictional world, because their cultures have already been appropriated, distorted, exploited and fictionalized so much throughout history.

So here are my questions:
Are you a member of a cultural group with a history of being oppressed? If so, how do you feel about these aspects of the game?

Are there other elements of potential cultural appropriation that I have not noticed? Anything that you find offensive?

Should I avoid using things like the Redguard cultural costumes or linking items like the Dream Catchers?

To the developers: I have noticed several times that the Elder Scrolls Online is very sensitive to issues of respect for oppressed minorities (I don't mean only ethnic minorities) and I was very pleased to see that, so I am wondering whether you have ever taken into consideration the risk of cultural appropriation and what are your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you all for contributing to an open and respectful discussion.

Jew here. If you don't know how my people have been historically oppressed, you don't know your damn history (and are quite frankly doing exactly what you claim to be against). And I'm more offended by YOU right now, rather than the (quite frankly very respectfully done) "appropriation" you complain about - on behalf of others I might add.

What I'd personally recommend avoiding is SPEAKING ON OTHERS' BEHALF. And quite frankly I'd recommend growing up if seeing somebody else's culture triggers you like this. Because that's essentially what is happening. YOU (not anybody else here, just you) are upset that somebody WHO YOU ASSUME IS WHITE (I don't know - or frankly care - what the individual nationalities of the people who work at Bethsoft or on the ESO devteam are. They could all be Yemeni immigrants for all the *** I give about it) put something from some other culture somewhere in their fiction. Never mind HOW it is used, even if they are both respectful and pretty damn close if not identical to how things are in the real world - something is there that isn't from the base culture! HOW DARE THEY!

therealfriday13th · April 2016

JDar wrote: »

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

[minor edit to remove quote]

JDar · April 2016

therealfriday13th wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Mods please close this thread, it is highly political in nature and posters with a ridiculous agenda like OP have no right to post here.

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

The rules on the forum are very clear. You talk about the game. Not about politics.

aisriyth_ESO · April 2016

therealfriday13th wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Mods please close this thread, it is highly political in nature and posters with a ridiculous agenda like OP have no right to post here.

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

Posting on the forum is not a right, it is a privilege. This thread can only get worse from here, so at the very least it needs to be removed. If he repeats the inciting of unnecessary controversy then perhaps his privileges should be revoked temporarily.

Appleblade · April 2016

aisriyth_ESO wrote: »

therealfriday13th wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Mods please close this thread, it is highly political in nature and posters with a ridiculous agenda like OP have no right to post here.

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

Posting on the forum is not a right, it is a privilege. This thread can only get worse from here, so at the very least it needs to be removed. If he repeats the inciting of unnecessary controversy then perhaps his privileges should be revoked temporarily.

As strongly as I responded, even I wouldn't go that far. Nuke the thread, but silence the OPs voice? Not necessary.

Xundiin · April 2016

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

As someone who hails manly from Celtic and Viking Origins. I find it far more offensive that you'd rather put up walls to so called protect and with hold cultural knowledge from those who might seek it. If a Chinese person or Arabian wanted to know more about my culture and why I look or even do certain things, I would not be offended if they found those things interesting and adopted them into his own life. Cultural foods I may eat, religious beliefs I may practice, religious or cultural icons/patterns that may have been used. I would not be offended, because they not trying to ruin my culture. They are fascinated by it and wish to be apart of it in some way.

It's like here in America, we have a lot of people that embrace the Japanese culture. Are they offending Japanese? Maybe, but their intent is not to. It's because they love the way this culture developed and thrived and want to be apart of it. For what ever reason it may be, they feel connected and drawn to that. Why would anyone in their right mind be offended by this or feel the need that they shouldn't wear culturally icon clothing or collect and study the art of Samurai fighting?

And as far as a game goes, in particular this game, it would be near to impossible to develop so many different cultures in a universe that is designed on such a massive scale and in great detail. To say that they shouldn't do this is just hurtful. Not only to cultures that have similarities that made it into the game, but even more so to those who designed it.

Rosveen · April 2016

I fail to see how this is a problem. Culture is a living thing, growing and evolving through time. Peaceful exchange of art, technology and ideas should be celebrated, not feared. We're all richer for it. I wouldn't want to live in a world where we're not allowed to create, enjoy and share anything but what we were born into, stifling our minds and hearts. Worse yet: a world where only the "dominant, therefore inoffensive" white Western culture is deemed safe and acceptable and everything else is questioned and needs to be explicitly justified - justified to people who, unasked, appointed themselves guardians of other cultures they don't personally identify as. This is actually more demeaning to those cultures, whose members are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.

SantieClaws wrote: »

and the music I am listening to right now is Slavic

I don't find this fact in the slightest bit offensive, in case you were worried.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

Appleblade wrote: »

aisriyth_ESO wrote: »

therealfriday13th wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Mods please close this thread, it is highly political in nature and posters with a ridiculous agenda like OP have no right to post here.

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

Posting on the forum is not a right, it is a privilege. This thread can only get worse from here, so at the very least it needs to be removed. If he repeats the inciting of unnecessary controversy then perhaps his privileges should be revoked temporarily.

As strongly as I responded, even I wouldn't go that far. Nuke the thread, but silence the OPs voice? Not necessary.

I agree. The OP might be concerned about something, but I just don't think it is something to be fair about. It reminds me of a time I was travelling In Australia, and I saw some beautiful aboriginal paintings, which might vaguely resemble pointillism but with bigger dots. I said something about how I thought it would be great to try out some of this style on my own. A woman came out of the woodwork and chided me for it. I wasn't trying to take her business, or pretend that my artwork had any kind of spiritual significance (I think it might have something to do with the Dreamtime). I just thought it looked beautiful, and I found it odd that someone would be offended by that. I think this is the sort of concern that the OP is talking about though. We're all human beings, and we've all been copying each other for as long as we've been around. I'm glad we do too, or we wouldn't have Korean taco trucks rolling around in LA, or California Rolls, or really just about anything cool I can think of. It brings up another point. America is known as the great Melting pot, and while we're not all Americans who play this game, the world is becoming more and more a melting pot. Is there anything really so bad about that? We're all being exposed to new and interesting ideas and things that we wouldn't have been otherwise.

Edit: Back to my original point. Its no reason to be mean to the OP. I just don't agree with his premise and I'm sure a lot of others don't as well based on the replies. I don't really see anything to get too angry about here. It took me a good minute to figure out what he was talking about until I read some of the other replies and remembered that experience I had in Australia. I like what @xundiin said about 'Imitation is the best form of flattery'. That's precisely how I feel.

Volkodav · April 2016

aisriyth_ESO wrote: »

therealfriday13th wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Mods please close this thread, it is highly political in nature and posters with a ridiculous agenda like OP have no right to post here.

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

Posting on the forum is not a right, it is a privilege. This thread can only get worse from here, so at the very least it needs to be removed. If he repeats the inciting of unnecessary controversy then perhaps his privileges should be revoked temporarily.

The OP has every "right" to make this thread,even though I find it rather silly in it's topic.And yes,it IS a right,not a privilege. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that it is a privilege. As long as the MODS,..not you and not I,..dont find this thread wrong,it will stand just fine.It provokes discussion,though it might be rather heated at times.Many threads in the forums spark the same attitudes,..controversy and debate and yet they stay.Which they should though we may not like their content.

susmitds · April 2016

Feynn wrote: »

Hello everyone,

I'd like to raise a thorny issue that has been concerning me for a while, and on which I would like to receive feedback from the community as well as possibly from the developers. Let me make it clear, however, that I would be very grateful if people could please abstain from offensive comments or attacks on something they might perceive as "too politically correct".

As the title of the thread indicates, my issue is with cultural appropriation. If you are not familiar with the concept, you can find plenty of definitions on the internet. A simple definition is "the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture", especially when those elements are taken from a culture that has a history of being oppressed.

I absolutely love the Elder Scrolls and especially the Elder Scrolls Online, but there are some elements in it which caused me to ask myself whether we should be concerned with cultural appropriation. It's a genuine question, and because of that I would especially like to receive answers from members of cultural groups which might feel disrespected, and by the developers if this is a question that they considered as well.

Let me give a few examples. Consider the Argonians, and how so many aestethical elements in their portrayal are derived from pre-Columbian cultures which were destroyed by European colonists. Consider stealable items like the "Kothringi Dream Catcher" or the "Silken Dream Catcher", which maybe could be seen as appropriation of a part of indigenous American culture. Consider also some of the ways in which the Redguards are depicted (for example some of the Crown Store costumes, which could be seen as cultural appropriation on things like "belly dancing"). There could certainly be more instances, I am not trying to provide a comprehensive list, and I am aware that through my own ignorance I might have misunderstood some things (e.g. Japanese culture and Akaviri designs? Reachmen and Celts?)

I am afraid that this sort of elements might be considered disrespectful and hurtful to people who are connected to those cultures which are used as sources of inspiration for TES lore. I doubt there are many Nordic people who feel offended by the similarities between Nord and Viking culture, but then again the Vikings were not really an oppressed cultural group (were they?) On the other hand, indigenous peoples of the Americas might feel resentment at seeing part of their cultures included into a fictional world, because their cultures have already been appropriated, distorted, exploited and fictionalized so much throughout history.

So here are my questions:
Are you a member of a cultural group with a history of being oppressed? If so, how do you feel about these aspects of the game?

Are there other elements of potential cultural appropriation that I have not noticed? Anything that you find offensive?

Should I avoid using things like the Redguard cultural costumes or linking items like the Dream Catchers?

To the developers: I have noticed several times that the Elder Scrolls Online is very sensitive to issues of respect for oppressed minorities (I don't mean only ethnic minorities) and I was very pleased to see that, so I am wondering whether you have ever taken into consideration the risk of cultural appropriation and what are your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you all for contributing to an open and respectful discussion.

East Empire Company is a direct derivative from East India Company. The Nords of Skyrim are a bit too similar to Nordic Aryans of India, the ancestors of the current Hindus.(source:Wikipedia). The civil war against the Imperials in TES:V is pretty similar to Indian Freedom Struggle.
But to be honest, I don't really have any issues with anything in the game, inspite of being of Indian Ethnicity. I mean, why should I? It is not really disrespecting anything.

aisriyth_ESO · April 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

aisriyth_ESO wrote: »

therealfriday13th wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Mods please close this thread, it is highly political in nature and posters with a ridiculous agenda like OP have no right to post here.

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

Posting on the forum is not a right, it is a privilege. This thread can only get worse from here, so at the very least it needs to be removed. If he repeats the inciting of unnecessary controversy then perhaps his privileges should be revoked temporarily.

The OP has every "right" to make this thread,even though I find it rather silly in it's topic.And yes,it IS a right,not a privilege. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that it is a privilege. As long as the MODS,..not you and not I,..dont find this thread wrong,it will stand just fine.It provokes discussion,though it might be rather heated at times.Many threads in the forums spark the same attitudes,..controversy and debate and yet they stay.Which they should though we may not like their content.

It has nothing to do with the content of the thread that determines privilege vs right. You are massively overstating 'right' here. The bottom line with privately run forums is they are a resource given as a privilege to users, we as users can abuse that privilege and loose temporary or permanent access to the forums or service rendered by that company. This isn't even an opinion based thing, that is factually what this is.

As to if the post warrants banning or suspensions, no, it doesn't. However, my point is more of a warning to the OP to be careful about posts like this, well it serves a purpose it ultimately is a dangerous topic to be held in the discussion of the game forums, even if the post does serve some purpose towards the games concepts.

This isn't even an argument against free speech since that seems to be what you are getting at. Merely, a warning that inciting vitriol is a dangerous gambit, and while i will give the benefit of the doubt to the OP that he genuinely desired an honest and intellectually stimulating discussion that isn't always how things will pan out. So ultimately, we all get warned by mods to keep it civil (which mods do fairly frequently on those heated threads) or if we as a community fail to do so it gets closed.

Appleblade wrote: »

aisriyth_ESO wrote: »

therealfriday13th wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Mods please close this thread, it is highly political in nature and posters with a ridiculous agenda like OP have no right to post here.

Does he play the game? Then he has a right to post here. Just like everyone else who plays the game does. Speaking of, I really should play again...

Posting on the forum is not a right, it is a privilege. This thread can only get worse from here, so at the very least it needs to be removed. If he repeats the inciting of unnecessary controversy then perhaps his privileges should be revoked temporarily.

As strongly as I responded, even I wouldn't go that far. Nuke the thread, but silence the OPs voice? Not necessary.

If by nuking the thread you mean closing it, that is largely silencing the op anyhow. Either way, i suggest you reread my post as i am not calling for a ban or suspension. Merely warning posts like this are a slippery slope to such things. It is always better for us as a community to try to moderate ourselves to some extent then require outside forces. So at the very least, it should hopefully encourage people who do insist that this thread serves a purpose, to make sure it stays civil.

Ultimately, if by any poorly worded sentence, i may of wrote, i apologize for the poor communication. But believe me, i adore well thought out debates, but even as you pointed out this thread can be really toxic really quick.

Volkodav · April 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Hello everyone,

I'd like to raise a thorny issue that has been concerning me for a while, and on which I would like to receive feedback from the community as well as possibly from the developers. Let me make it clear, however, that I would be very grateful if people could please abstain from offensive comments or attacks on something they might perceive as "too politically correct".

As the title of the thread indicates, my issue is with cultural appropriation. If you are not familiar with the concept, you can find plenty of definitions on the internet. A simple definition is "the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture", especially when those elements are taken from a culture that has a history of being oppressed.

I absolutely love the Elder Scrolls and especially the Elder Scrolls Online, but there are some elements in it which caused me to ask myself whether we should be concerned with cultural appropriation. It's a genuine question, and because of that I would especially like to receive answers from members of cultural groups which might feel disrespected, and by the developers if this is a question that they considered as well.

Let me give a few examples. Consider the Argonians, and how so many aestethical elements in their portrayal are derived from pre-Columbian cultures which were destroyed by European colonists. Consider stealable items like the "Kothringi Dream Catcher" or the "Silken Dream Catcher", which maybe could be seen as appropriation of a part of indigenous American culture. Consider also some of the ways in which the Redguards are depicted (for example some of the Crown Store costumes, which could be seen as cultural appropriation on things like "belly dancing"). There could certainly be more instances, I am not trying to provide a comprehensive list, and I am aware that through my own ignorance I might have misunderstood some things (e.g. Japanese culture and Akaviri designs? Reachmen and Celts?)

I am afraid that this sort of elements might be considered disrespectful and hurtful to people who are connected to those cultures which are used as sources of inspiration for TES lore. I doubt there are many Nordic people who feel offended by the similarities between Nord and Viking culture, but then again the Vikings were not really an oppressed cultural group (were they?) On the other hand, indigenous peoples of the Americas might feel resentment at seeing part of their cultures included into a fictional world, because their cultures have already been appropriated, distorted, exploited and fictionalized so much throughout history.

So here are my questions:
Are you a member of a cultural group with a history of being oppressed? If so, how do you feel about these aspects of the game?

Are there other elements of potential cultural appropriation that I have not noticed? Anything that you find offensive?

Should I avoid using things like the Redguard cultural costumes or linking items like the Dream Catchers?

To the developers: I have noticed several times that the Elder Scrolls Online is very sensitive to issues of respect for oppressed minorities (I don't mean only ethnic minorities) and I was very pleased to see that, so I am wondering whether you have ever taken into consideration the risk of cultural appropriation and what are your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you all for contributing to an open and respectful discussion.

East Empire Company is a direct derivative from East India Company. The Nords of Skyrim are a bit too similar to Nordic Aryans of India, the ancestors of the current Hindus.(source:Wikipedia). The civil war against the Imperials in TES:V is pretty similar to Indian Freedom Struggle.
But to be honest, I don't really have any issues with anything in the game, inspite of being of Indian Ethnicity. I mean, why should I? It is not really disrespecting anything.

I'm with you in that all this doesnt get to me.I never even think about appropriation of culture.I am Indian too,Cherokee Indian,..which riles people to say that.They want to be called Native American,but they arent.No one is "Native" to the American continent.
Sometimes there are things in ESO that remind me of my tribe's culture and our teachings,but it doesnt bother me.As to the Nords of Skyrim,they are what they are.The Northmen of the Scandinavian countries.Not Aryans of India.Not close.There are also things that remind me of my other part,German.Like one of the gear sets has those wings that stand up,which are Prussian in origin.
Most people arent into the heavy real life thought process when it comes to gaming though.They want to just enjoy their fun and not be forced into thinking about things that arent an issue in any game.For someone to pay attention to this enough to get riled about it,..well,..they are waaay too serious.

aisriyth_ESO · April 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Hello everyone,

I'd like to raise a thorny issue that has been concerning me for a while, and on which I would like to receive feedback from the community as well as possibly from the developers. Let me make it clear, however, that I would be very grateful if people could please abstain from offensive comments or attacks on something they might perceive as "too politically correct".

As the title of the thread indicates, my issue is with cultural appropriation. If you are not familiar with the concept, you can find plenty of definitions on the internet. A simple definition is "the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture", especially when those elements are taken from a culture that has a history of being oppressed.

I absolutely love the Elder Scrolls and especially the Elder Scrolls Online, but there are some elements in it which caused me to ask myself whether we should be concerned with cultural appropriation. It's a genuine question, and because of that I would especially like to receive answers from members of cultural groups which might feel disrespected, and by the developers if this is a question that they considered as well.

Let me give a few examples. Consider the Argonians, and how so many aestethical elements in their portrayal are derived from pre-Columbian cultures which were destroyed by European colonists. Consider stealable items like the "Kothringi Dream Catcher" or the "Silken Dream Catcher", which maybe could be seen as appropriation of a part of indigenous American culture. Consider also some of the ways in which the Redguards are depicted (for example some of the Crown Store costumes, which could be seen as cultural appropriation on things like "belly dancing"). There could certainly be more instances, I am not trying to provide a comprehensive list, and I am aware that through my own ignorance I might have misunderstood some things (e.g. Japanese culture and Akaviri designs? Reachmen and Celts?)

I am afraid that this sort of elements might be considered disrespectful and hurtful to people who are connected to those cultures which are used as sources of inspiration for TES lore. I doubt there are many Nordic people who feel offended by the similarities between Nord and Viking culture, but then again the Vikings were not really an oppressed cultural group (were they?) On the other hand, indigenous peoples of the Americas might feel resentment at seeing part of their cultures included into a fictional world, because their cultures have already been appropriated, distorted, exploited and fictionalized so much throughout history.

So here are my questions:
Are you a member of a cultural group with a history of being oppressed? If so, how do you feel about these aspects of the game?

Are there other elements of potential cultural appropriation that I have not noticed? Anything that you find offensive?

Should I avoid using things like the Redguard cultural costumes or linking items like the Dream Catchers?

To the developers: I have noticed several times that the Elder Scrolls Online is very sensitive to issues of respect for oppressed minorities (I don't mean only ethnic minorities) and I was very pleased to see that, so I am wondering whether you have ever taken into consideration the risk of cultural appropriation and what are your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you all for contributing to an open and respectful discussion.

East Empire Company is a direct derivative from East India Company. The Nords of Skyrim are a bit too similar to Nordic Aryans of India, the ancestors of the current Hindus.(source:Wikipedia). The civil war against the Imperials in TES:V is pretty similar to Indian Freedom Struggle.
But to be honest, I don't really have any issues with anything in the game, inspite of being of Indian Ethnicity. I mean, why should I? It is not really disrespecting anything.

I'm with you in that all this doesnt get to me.I never even think about appropriation of culture.I am Indian too,Cherokee Indian,..which riles people to say that.They want to be called Native American,but they arent.No one is "Native" to the American continent.
Sometimes there are things in ESO that remind me of my tribe's culture and our teachings,but it doesnt bother me.As to the Nords of Skyrim,they are what they are.The Northmen of the Scandinavian countries.Not Aryans of India.Not close.There are also things that remind me of my other part,German.Like one of the gear sets has those wings that stand up,which are Prussian in origin.
Most people arent into the heavy real life thought process when it comes to gaming though.They want to just enjoy their fun and not be forced into thinking about things that arent an issue in any game.For someone to pay attention to this enough to get riled about it,..well,..they are waaay too serious.

So i admit im about to derail for a second, what style are those wings from, i saw it briefly and caught my eye because Polish Winged Hussars were boss.

Ruben · April 2016

If outsiders obeyed OP, Spain would be a lot poorer than we are now.

To everyone: Ignore this. Come and enjoy our culture. Noone will rage at you if you wear our traditional clothes or try to practice some of our traditional dances... you will be praised!

[minor edit for context]

Ra'Shtar · April 2016

Ruben wrote: »

If outsiders obeyed OP, Spain would be a lot poorer than we are now.

To everyone: Come and enjoy our culture. Noone will rage at you if you wear our traditional clothes or try to practice some of our traditional dances... you will be praised!

I would love to enjoy Spain, specially spanish man!

[minor edit for quote]

JD2013 · April 2016

I was wondering how long it was going to take for these kind of RL ideologies to reach ESO. It took longer than I thought though, so there's that.

Cultural appropriation is a rather nasty little couple of buzzwords that have been leaking forth for the past couple of years. I am starting to see it more and more these days, and was even having a discussion with my boss about it a couple of days ago.

To highlight this discussion I will counter with a different terminology; cultural appreciation. Now to frame this phrase, I have enjoyed many things from different cultures. One of my favourite memories is an ex of mine taking me to a Japanese tea ceremony. Everyone was so warm and welcoming. Did I appropriate a part of their culture or did I appreciate it?

There have, of course been opressed minorities throughout history. Nobody denies this. We have the same in Tamriel in the case of Argonians for example. You could count them as being "oppressed" due to the Dunmer.

Until recent years we had a lot of open discussion about it all. But now, thanks to the magic of buzzwords, we are regressing. People are segregating off into their own little groups again, and being offended for the sake of being offended by literally anything. The trouble with this kind of behaviour is where do we go from here? We have reached a blockade. Even talking about it is frowned upon because someone will be offended that others who dare to have an opinion that differs from their own.

Another problem is applying this logic in a fantasy world where these things just do not belong. People play video games to escape their real lives and have fun. When we start applying real world values into something that is built for people to have fun, the danger is that everything is seen as inappropriate and bogged down with political values.

Of course, the developers have borrowed elements from real world cultures for their game world. But is this appropriation or appreciation? They aren't claiming to own these things. They aren't claiming that they invented these things. They are merely applying them as facets of the cultures of the races of Tamriel. That is all. Did I steal the Chinese food I cooked last night for dinner? No, of course not. That would be silly logic.

The world does certainly have its problems. But more and more things are now being seen as "problematic" by people who want to see problems where there in fact aren't any. In fact, can you imagine what a terribly dull world it would be if we all stuck to our corners of the world without seeing another country's culture and appreciating it? Oppression certainly has happened. Rather less so now.

But pushing these ideals into a video game world that is beautifully inclusive is wrong. All of the races of Tamriel, like in the real world, have different and beautiful facets to their cultures. Nobody is stealing them. Nobody is claiming to own them.

cravnbeer · April 2016

"what is and what ought to be" Is just nonsense.
Humans throughout history taken from other cultures what they liked. As individuals we adopt a culture / behaviors/ clothes / celebrations from others that we like. Nothing wrong with that. To say we should not appropriate culture because of morality is silly nonsense that ignores human nature.

brandon · April 2016

@Feynn I don't think you and people who shout cultural appropriation at everything understand something. "You should only stick with your own culture and people. When you start mixing races and culture it's bad for everyone." is basically what you're implying and that by itself is racist. We'll use Martin Luther King Jr. as an example. He fought against this kind of thing and this is trying to change everything that he fought for. Cultural appropriation is an idiotic thing that is used to separate us based on where and who we were born as.

ZOS_CoriJ · April 2016

We are locking this thread as it has become a generalized discussion on politics and not a discussion in relationship to ESO. Furthermore, while the intended discussion is fair, this topic has caused a fair amount of offense and has generated comments pushing close to social intolerance. Discussion of real world politics is against our forum rules for exactly this reason. We feel it is better left closed.