Required damage type changes in DB

susmitds · April 2016

As of the latest patch, we have seen a good deal of improvements in balancing the Champion System.

However, by looking at the present skill system, there is a lack of parity of damage types in some damage dealing skills in nightblade class skills and guild skills, as well as ultimate skills from all classes (except DK) and other skill lines. There are quite a few stamina based skills dealing magic damage. And when ultimates are considered, there is only a single ultimate in the game that deals physical damage. A change in damage type is required for these skills to scale with Mighty.

List -

Killer's Blade (Nightblade - Assassination) - A stamina morph of Assassin's Blade that deals magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.
Relentless Focus (Nightblade - Assassination) - A morph of Grim Focus intended towards stamina users. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.
Power Extraction (Nightblade - Siphoning) - A stamina morph of Drain Power that deals AoE magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.
Trap Beast (Fighter's Guild) - A stamina based trap skill that deals magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.
Expert Hunter (Fighter's Guild) - A stamina based skill with a magic damage proc. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Additionally all classes should have ultimates with a morph to Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty. Dawnbreaker from should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage being a ultimate skill for mainly Stamina builds.

The problem can also be solved by introducing new damage types that scale with Mighty.

This lack of parity is just one of several problems that Stamina builds face. After removal of the Veteran Ranks in the Dark Brotherhood patch just increases the importance of damage scaling from the champion system.

susmitds · April 2016

This becomes all the more important now that the prime way of improving skills will be champion points.
The flame based stamina skills of DKs also need looking at. May be introduce a new damage type, probably magma damage which can scale with mighty. As for the stamina based magic damage skills, maybe spirit damage which can scale with mighty as well.

RoyJade · April 2016

Or change CP bonus to give bonus to stamina or magicka type attack, instead of the type of damage.

Kungfu · April 2016

Have you by chance tested this?
Otherwise probably best to just change one side of the equation (CP values for right now) at a time. Changing anything else at the same time without EXTENSIVE testing will only make it impossible to balance anything after the fact.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Do we really need new damage types....naaah

What needs to happen is to specifically address PvE skill effects and PvP skill effects.
-Then this allows ZOS to make adjustments even considering your ideas above.....

I think that resolves everything and aligns with CP passives without trying to overhaul something.

susmitds · April 2016

RoyJade wrote: »

Or change CP bonus to give bonus to stamina or magicka type attack, instead of the type of damage.

The scaling of mighty plays a major role in Stamina DPS. The bow builds which became mostly obsolete after 1.6 made a comeback after TG patch, thanks to scaling from mighty.

RoyJade · April 2016

I know, I use it.
But if they made such a change, every competence who cost stamina (including ultimates) will scale with mighty. That's the easiest fix, and it also has the advantage to don't break some competence's skin (scorched earth, fighter guild's skill, DK skills, sorc skills…). Honestly, I don't think a poison/disease/physical thunder form or dawnbreaker will be beautiful.

Strider_Roshin · April 2016

A physical damage morph of death stroke would be nice.

magnusthorek · April 2016

An ability that requires stamina to be cast not necessarily has to do physical damage.

Think about them as a supernatural effort like... like... Rock Lee's (Naruto) Front Lotus in which a great physical effort is gathered to perform some "magic"

D0ntevenL1ft · April 2016

magnusthorek wrote: »

Am ability that requires stamina to be cast not necessarily has to do physical damage.

Think about them as a supernatural effort like... like... Rock Lee's (Naruto) Front Lotus in which a great physical effort is gathered to perform some "magic"

How many useful magicka abilities deal physical damage?

magnusthorek · April 2016

I'm mostly a magicka user so I can't tell, but probably those related to character's Constitution, spells that aims to improve the body neglected by the mind

STEVIL · April 2016

On this
Additionally all classes should have ultimates with a morph to Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty. Dawnbreaker from should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage being a ultimate skill for mainly Stamina builds

Sounds very homogenous. Can we also just renames them all morph-s and morph-m?

Have you also analyzed the bslance between the number of aoe stamina skills across classes vs magica for the cp that helps or hurts aoe?
Sta dot vs mag dot?
Etc
Etc
Etc

Did you analyze whether changing Killer blade and the other nb skills to sta based makes sta blades overpowered bc other aspects of sta blade that exists now were balanced with the magica based options and inproving so many is an imbalance?

BALANCE is not achieved by focusing on a narrow, myopic focus on one element and genersting sameness or change in isolation. It is achieved by taking the whole, making small adjustments for dynamic equilibrium and testing the crap out of it.

So in short, if you got two of your five nb changes, what one negative change to a nb sta element would you accept?

How about, surprise attack loses its from stealth bonus?

That cool?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

On this
Additionally all classes should have ultimates with a morph to Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty. Dawnbreaker from should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage being a ultimate skill for mainly Stamina builds

Sounds very homogenous. Can we also just renames them all morph-s and morph-m?

Have you also analyzed the bslance between the number of aoe stamina skills across classes vs magica for the cp that helps or hurts aoe?
Sta dot vs mag dot?
Etc
Etc
Etc

Did you analyze whether changing Killer blade and the other nb skills to sta based makes sta blades overpowered bc other aspects of sta blade that exists now were balanced with the magica based options and inproving so many is an imbalance?

BALANCE is not achieved by focusing on a narrow, myopic focus on one element and genersting sameness or change in isolation. It is achieved by taking the whole, making small adjustments for dynamic equilibrium and testing the crap out of it.

So in short, if you got two of your five nb changes, what one negative change to a nb sta element would you accept?

How about, surprise attack loses its from stealth bonus?

That cool?

Homogeneous is what we have now all ultimates but one is magic based. Having ultimates that stamina builds can maximize would be balanced with magic. Killer's Blade is in line with Twohanded execute on non CP campaigns so the base damage is the same it would simply match power once again.
How does this make StamBlades OP unless you're saying that StamBlades don't use Twohanded and really...

It's not asking much to say that powers that draw stamina should be bugged by things stamina builds use. Why should
I have a get spell penetration for a stamina execute?

We all know shields are powerful but Harness Magicka is a shield that only works on magic yet Mages cast it no matter who they fight cause no matter if they're stamina or magic they attack at some point with magic damage.

STEVIL · April 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

On this
Additionally all classes should have ultimates with a morph to Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty. Dawnbreaker from should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage being a ultimate skill for mainly Stamina builds

Sounds very homogenous. Can we also just renames them all morph-s and morph-m?

Have you also analyzed the bslance between the number of aoe stamina skills across classes vs magica for the cp that helps or hurts aoe?
Sta dot vs mag dot?
Etc
Etc
Etc

Did you analyze whether changing Killer blade and the other nb skills to sta based makes sta blades overpowered bc other aspects of sta blade that exists now were balanced with the magica based options and inproving so many is an imbalance?

BALANCE is not achieved by focusing on a narrow, myopic focus on one element and genersting sameness or change in isolation. It is achieved by taking the whole, making small adjustments for dynamic equilibrium and testing the crap out of it.

So in short, if you got two of your five nb changes, what one negative change to a nb sta element would you accept?

How about, surprise attack loses its from stealth bonus?

That cool?

Homogeneous is what we have now all ultimates but one is magic based. Having ultimates that stamina builds can maximize would be balanced with magic. Killer's Blade is in line with Twohanded execute on non CP campaigns so the base damage is the same it would simply match power once again.
How does this make StamBlades OP unless you're saying that StamBlades don't use Twohanded and really...
.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

Example of myopic micro-focus balance fail.
According to you...
NOW KB does not measure up with 2h slash
THEN it would.
So balance.

BUT
that means that execute would be available for DW stamblades, measuring up fine vs the 2h stamblades on that EXCEPT that you dont account for the dw char having an ectra gear slot compared to the 2h stamblade so now, if all other equal, you got even with the other guy PLUS the bonus gear slot.

You chose, myopically, to compare your new kb to be on par with a tree which sacrifices a gear slot and offsets that with some extra goodies in the skills themselves.

Thats exactly why the micro-element myopic comparisons dont work as valid balance deciders.

Thanks for the PERFECT example.

Could not have construed a better example.

Sugaroverdose · April 2016

susmitds wrote: »

As of the latest patch, we have seen a good deal of improvements in balancing the Champion System.

However, by looking at the present skill system, there is a lack of parity of damage types in some damage dealing skills in nightblade class skills and guild skills, as well as ultimate skills from all classes (except DK) and other skill lines. There are quite a few stamina based skills dealing magic damage. And when ultimates are considered, there is only a single ultimate in the game that deals physical damage. A change in damage type is required for these skills to scale with Mighty.

List -
Killer's Blade (Nightblade - Assassination) - A stamina morph of Assassin's Blade that deals magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Relentless Focus (Nightblade - Assassination) - A morph of Grim Focus intended towards stamina users. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Power Extraction (Nightblade - Siphoning) - A stamina morph of Drain Power that deals AoE magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Trap Beast (Fighter's Guild) - A stamina based trap skill that deals magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Expert Hunter (Fighter's Guild) - A stamina based skill with a magic damage proc. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Additionally all classes should have ultimates with a morph to Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty. Dawnbreaker from should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage being a ultimate skill for mainly Stamina builds.

The problem can also be solved by introducing new damage types that scale with Mighty.

This lack of parity is just one of several problems that Stamina builds face. After removal of the Veteran Ranks in the Dark Brotherhood patch just increases the importance of damage scaling from the champion system.

Killer's Blade - agree about phys, but not disease - it should stay execute, not healing destroy.
Relentless Focus - not agree in stamina hands it will become OP just because of easy wepdmg stacking, add to it CP and it will kill people with oneshot even when casted by not glass-canon build
Power Extraction - poison maybe
Trap Beast - who does use that O.O?
Expert Hunter - Make OP even more OP? Only with basic damage reduction to 33% of actual it's didn't fixed in fact so you asking buff for exploitable ability.

Stop already whining about stamina 'issues', such buffs can be applied only with fixing complete CC and roll dodge imbalance between magicka and stamina builds

actosh · April 2016

Sry but if u do such a thing @ Op, u gotta cover all of em. Things u missed:
Monsterset dmg types
Bow: scorched earth
FG Skills
Will povide more in my feedback ^^

RoyJade · April 2016

For a complete list (I won't include some attack like merciless resolve, who scale with magicka even with the stamina regen morph) :

All ultimates except dragon leap (none all need physical damage, but some like death stroke, radial sweep and atronash's impact should be good with a physical damage morph).

Dragonknight : unstable flame, burning breath, flame of oblivion (who scale either magicka or stamina).
Sorcerer : thundering presence.
Nightblade : killer blade.
Templar : power of the light.
Bow : scorched earth.
Warrior guild : expert hunter, trap beast and silver shard's anti-daedric proc.
Undauted : inner beast.

Stamina-axed sets (pure heal focused set aren't included) :
Coat of the red mountain
Shock master
Sunderflame
Way of fire
Ashen grip

Monster set :
Maw of the infernal
Nerien'eth
Spawn of Mephala
Valkyn Skoria

We can immediately see that changing some of these damage type will hurt magicka build instead. That's why mighty and elemental expert shoupd boost all stamina/magicka scaled damage, instead of just boosting a type of damage. Or they need to have a decreased effect (like 5 or 10% at 100cp), like that using two stars won't hurt too much some build who rely to both physical and magicka damage type.

shugg · April 2016

These make sence however it will increase the time to kill, when being jumped by nb its currently to much damage to live theough unless the nb makes a mistake. So if all these get chamged as they should then the damage would need to be bought inline or make impen reduce damage from players.

susmitds · April 2016

shugg wrote: »

These make sence however it will increase the time to kill, when being jumped by nb its currently to much damage to live theough unless the nb makes a mistake. So if all these get chamged as they should then the damage would need to be bought inline or make impen reduce damage from players.

However, at the same time, barring Stamina Sorcerers, Stamblades got the least DPS in PvE, right now. And most NBs are actually glass cannon, which is why they can kill others easily. They are pretty squishy too and unless they take you totally by surprise, you should be able to counter them hard.

khele23eb17_ESO · April 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

On this
Additionally all classes should have ultimates with a morph to Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty. Dawnbreaker from should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage being a ultimate skill for mainly Stamina builds

Sounds very homogenous. Can we also just renames them all morph-s and morph-m?

Have you also analyzed the bslance between the number of aoe stamina skills across classes vs magica for the cp that helps or hurts aoe?
Sta dot vs mag dot?
Etc
Etc
Etc

Did you analyze whether changing Killer blade and the other nb skills to sta based makes sta blades overpowered bc other aspects of sta blade that exists now were balanced with the magica based options and inproving so many is an imbalance?

BALANCE is not achieved by focusing on a narrow, myopic focus on one element and genersting sameness or change in isolation. It is achieved by taking the whole, making small adjustments for dynamic equilibrium and testing the crap out of it.

So in short, if you got two of your five nb changes, what one negative change to a nb sta element would you accept?

How about, surprise attack loses its from stealth bonus?

That cool?

CP scaling has to happen for a very simple reason - mag builds have scaling of class skill damage through CP and stam skills do not. You can tweak the damage numbers after you add scaling but it needs to be there. No, this does not require removing mechanics from skills.

Khamira · April 2016

susmitds wrote: »

As of the latest patch, we have seen a good deal of improvements in balancing the Champion System.

However, by looking at the present skill system, there is a lack of parity of damage types in some damage dealing skills in nightblade class skills and guild skills, as well as ultimate skills from all classes (except DK) and other skill lines. There are quite a few stamina based skills dealing magic damage. And when ultimates are considered, there is only a single ultimate in the game that deals physical damage. A change in damage type is required for these skills to scale with Mighty.

List -
Killer's Blade (Nightblade - Assassination) - A stamina morph of Assassin's Blade that deals magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Relentless Focus (Nightblade - Assassination) - A morph of Grim Focus intended towards stamina users. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Power Extraction (Nightblade - Siphoning) - A stamina morph of Drain Power that deals AoE magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Trap Beast (Fighter's Guild) - A stamina based trap skill that deals magic damage. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Expert Hunter (Fighter's Guild) - A stamina based skill with a magic damage proc. Should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty.

Additionally all classes should have ultimates with a morph to Physical/Poison/Disease Damage to scale with Mighty. Dawnbreaker from should deal Physical/Poison/Disease Damage being a ultimate skill for mainly Stamina builds.

The problem can also be solved by introducing new damage types that scale with Mighty.

This lack of parity is just one of several problems that Stamina builds face. After removal of the Veteran Ranks in the Dark Brotherhood patch just increases the importance of damage scaling from the champion system.

Guys, please stop doing this "Give any dmg type dat scales with mah CP cause CP, lol". If Killer's Blade is a spectral, red dagger, why is anyone even thinking that it should be a Poison type? Poison is (radioactive-)green and poisons you (Duh...) aka DoT. Or it's just green and poisonous. Disease is brown, rotten and makes your healing harder.

If the CP would look like "Physical, Poison and Frost" would you want to change KB to ice type attack? Lol...

For all those skills I suggest Physical damage, and for ultimates that makes sense more-or-less:

If Spell Dmg > Weapon Dmg then Magic Damage
Else Physical Damage

I mean Dragon LEAP is clearly a Physical attack but Veil of BLADES sounds good as physical attack, not only magic.

susmitds · April 2016

Khamira wrote: »

Guys, please stop doing this "Give any dmg type dat scales with mah CP cause CP, lol". If Killer's Blade is a spectral, red dagger, why is anyone even thinking that it should be a Poison type? Poison is (radioactive-)green and poisons you (Duh...) aka DoT. Or it's just green and poisonous. Disease is brown, rotten and makes your healing harder.

If the CP would look like "Physical, Poison and Frost" would you want to change KB to ice type attack? Lol...

For all those skills I suggest Physical damage, and for ultimates that makes sense more-or-less:

If Spell Dmg > Weapon Dmg then Magic Damage
Else Physical Damage

I mean Dragon LEAP is clearly a Physical attack but Veil of BLADES sounds good as physical attack, not only magic.

It wont be hard to change the looks of killer's blade to a green blade. If Suprise Attack can be physical dmg, in spite of being a spectral blade attack, I cant see why Killer's Blade cant be.

CyrusArya · April 2016

Two things:

1.) If other classes are given physical ultimates, robbing stam DKs of their unique niche, I fully expect Stam DK to be given a version of surprise attack or jabs. The combat team has already stated that they don't want stam builds to be homogenous and they keep things varied by giving each one something unique. Night blades have a spammable single target, templars have a spamable channel, and DKs have a high burst ultimate. Giving other stam builds physical ultis would be a huge nerf to stamina DK and for this reason I am completely opposed to the idea and fairly sure it won't happen if I understand the philosophy of the Devs here.

2.) All these skills are balanced around the current damage scaling. If you changed nothing else, and just converted all these skills to stamina, things like soul harvest and crescent sweep even would be completely OP. Same thing in regards to killers blade, it does magic damage to keep it balanced cus no other stamina class can single target execute from a dual wield bar. If you are concerned about balance, strictly converting skills to deal physical damage would necessarily involve nerfs to tooltip damage.

I would rather see them just add weapon ultimates. If they convert existing ultis to physical damage, they better give DKs a stam whip and sorcs a stam frags or something.

khele23eb17_ESO · April 2016

CyrusArya wrote: »

2.) All these skills are balanced around the current damage scaling. If you changed nothing else, and just converted all these skills to stamina, things like soul harvest and crescent sweep even would be completely OP. Same thing in regards to killers blade, it does magic damage to keep it balanced cus no other stamina class can single target execute from a dual wield bar. If you are concerned about balance, strictly converting skills to deal physical damage would necessarily involve nerfs to tooltip damage.

You realize that with them increasing the CP cap every quarter or half a year, non-scaling skills will get weaker and weaker with every dlc? In your scenario mag builds will get stronger with each major patch while stam builds will fall behind. The scaling must be there otherwise stamina is screwed long term. If this requires adjusting some of the numbers, so be it (but with the recent magicka buffs Im not sure it would really be the case for all of the skills).

Marktoneth3 · April 2016

Magma ultimate should ignore both spell and physical resistants.