Feynn wrote: »

Consider stealable items like the "Kothringi Dream Catcher" or the "Silken Dream Catcher", which maybe could be seen as appropriation of a part of indigenous American culture.

If you are going to put forth the idea of cultural appropriation, then you could at least state the culture that you think something was stolen from. "Indigenous American", if you are roughly intending to indicate cultures originating in lands currently described as "the continental United States" come from a LOT of different cultures.

You might as well say "Indigenous European"......

Today has been a strange day on the forums.
We've had full religious debates, now we're on cultural appropriation... I feel like I've stumbled onto a philosophy board

newtinmpls wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Consider stealable items like the "Kothringi Dream Catcher" or the "Silken Dream Catcher", which maybe could be seen as appropriation of a part of indigenous American culture.

If you are going to put forth the idea of cultural appropriation, then you could at least state the culture that you think something was stolen from.

Pardon me, I was concerned about the notion of cultural appropriation in general, and due to the limits of my own education I preferred to avoid getting into too much detail. Since you are asking, however, the specific culture I am referring to is that of the Ojibwe people, although as far as I understand dream catchers were then also adopted by other indigenous nations. I am only speaking on the basis of what I have been able to read, since I have no first-hand experience on the subject.

dday3six wrote: »

I'm Native American and Irish, and frankly I garner from this that somehow you feel I'm unable to watch out for myself, and need you to do it for me. Which I find far more offensive than any depicitions of cultural appropriation in a work of fiction.

I apologize. I did not mean to imply that anyone is unable to watch out for themselves. I didn't do this because you need me to do it for you, but simply because I am concerned with participating in behaviours which other people might find offensive. I don't expect to be aware of everything everyone feels about every aspect of the game, and I don't know how Native American players might feel about the presence of dream catchers in ESO. I have been taught that when in doubt I should ask, and that's precisely what I was doing. I am relieved that you don't find any issues with cultural appropriation in the game though, so thank you for your feedback

scorpiodog wrote: »

CM doesn't apply to fantasy and fiction. OF COURSE you have to use elements of non-mainstream cultures, or all our ESO characters would be watching TV and ordering pizza - not a very interesting RPG.

I think I disagree on this, actually. When I played TES IV: Oblivion I didn't really see anything that made me think of cultural appropriation, and I still thought it was a very interesting RPG. And I've seen plenty of debates on cultural appropriation regarding the ways cultures are depicted in fictional works.

scorpiodog wrote: »

Also, what you in narrow view might attribute to "Native American" culture might in fact be more universal among pre-historic "shamanistic" (whatever that means, lol) cultures. I don't think dream catchers were uniquely "Native American".

I considered that actually, and I tried to look it up. I couldn't find any references to dream catchers being present in any other cultures, but if you could find any I would be very grateful to you for pointing them out. Thanks.

paleobonesb14_ESO wrote: »

As an anthropologist I ask you... When does a pyramid become a pyramid? The short answer there is no way to make a fictitious culture that doesn't have similarities to existing, historic or extinct cultures.

Similarities, sure. But when you look at the pyramids built by the Argonians you don't think "oh, these look like nice generic pyramids", or "these look like very original pyramids that I can't really associate to any RL culture". You have to admit they look specifically like Mayan pyramids. And of course there is nothing wrong with creating a fictional culture which incorporates elements of "existing, historic or extinct cultures". The Imperials are clearly inspired to the ancient Romans. But the point is that the ancient Romans were never an oppressed cultural group, and I doubt any modern Italians would feel offended by the in-game portrayal of those elements of ancient Rome in the Imperials. I am not sure how present-day Mayans would feel about the portrayal of aesthetic aspects of their culture in the Argonians - I am honestly not sure, that's why I'm asking and I hope someone can offer me a well-reasoned answer.

The whole cultural appropriation thing is political nonsense. It's from the crowd that needs safe spaces on university campuses lest anything challenges their precious ideas. [snip]

The idea that someone cannot enjoy or partake in something from another culture is fascistic and itself wildly bigoted. Cultures have borrowed and adopted from other cultures since anything resembling culture emerged from the early hominid nomadic tribes tens of thousands of years ago. Cultural interchange, adaptation and borrowing is healthy and allows civilization to evolve.

The idea that we must now build walls isolating all cultural influence, or we can't draw upon real cultures for fiction Is from a zero level of intellect, and should be fought tooth and nail.

I strongly advise the mods to delete this thread and not allow this toxicity a foothold here.
[snip]

[edited for bait]

Appleblade wrote: »

The whole cultural appropriation thing is political nonsense. It's from the crowd that needs safe spaces on university campuses lest anything challenges their precious ideas.

The idea that someone cannot enjoy or partake in something from another culture is fascistic and itself wildly bigoted. Cultures have borrowed and adopted from other cultures since anything resembling culture emerged from the early hominid nomadic tribes tens of thousands of years ago. Cultural interchange, adaptation and borrowing is healthy and allows civilization to evolve.

The idea that we must now build walls isolating all cultural influence, or we can't draw upon real cultures for fiction Is from a zero level of intellect, and should be fought tooth and nail.

I strongly advise the mods to delete this thread and not allow this toxicity a foothold here.

thank you.

[minor edit for quote]

OP, please grow up and get over yourself.

aisriyth_ESO wrote: »

Also, to your comment about Oblivion not seeming to have cultural appropriation is because largely out of the 3 most recent TES games it takes place in what is largely what western cultural would grow up learning in school. So nothing seems misappropriated or out of my place.

What gets me is that the Imperials are absolutely influenced by Roman and Greek culture/architecture, given the heavy use of marble pillars, armored tunics/kilts, and the religious pantheon they follow. That's a more glaring example of real world influence than some of the other races have.

Particularly Altmer. What the hell are they supposed to be based off of if not Tolkien's elves?

And now you know why lions eat their young.

Appleblade wrote: »

Let's lighten it up.

My cat is totally offended I have a Khajiit character. He called it Catural Afurpriation.

Well, he said, "Meow meow meow wowrll prrrr meow meow" but that's how I interpreted it.

HAHAHAHAHA x'D

Feynn wrote: »

...
So here are my questions:
...
Are you a member of a cultural group with a history of being oppressed? If so, how do you feel about these aspects of the game?
...

Regarding dream catchers and First Nations culture,
do not see an issue.
It does not feel handled in a tacky or disrespectful way, and the items are part of a larger cohesion to the game universe.

They represent a form of diversity within the fantasy realm.

Feynn wrote: »

...
Are there other elements of potential cultural appropriation that I have not noticed? Anything that you find offensive?
...

Do not find it offensive, and could be erroneous in my interpretation, but have always kind of identified with Bretons as I feel the the mix of human and elven lineages reflects somewhat on Métis culture.

"We are Métis, with roots and rights that extend 9,000 years into this continent. We are neither First Nations nor Inuit, nor are we European immigrants to this land. Instead, we are the middle-ground between camps; the compromise between differences and the dawn that separates night and day. We are not half-breeds, but the children born of a marriage between two very different worlds ... To be Métis is to be blessed with the best fruit of not one, but two family trees. We are not "half" of anything, but doubled. Being twice blessed, we are likewise proud, strong and determined."

- Terry St. Amant, The Georgian Bay Métis Council of the Métis Nation of Ontario

Feynn wrote: »

...
Should I avoid using things like the Redguard cultural costumes or linking items like the Dream Catchers?
...

Is your character of Ra' Gada or Saxhleel descent, or was he or she raised in such a setting?
Feel free.

Is your character a filthy Dunmer slaver?
Keep away from Saxhleel cultural items unless you intend to make amends.

While your intentions may be noble @Feynn I think you're making monsters out of shadows. Culture misappropriation hasn't been an issue with the TES franchise and trying to make it an issue isn't helpful or constructive.

Controversy for the sake of controversy can be more harmful than whatever the supposed controversy was about in the first place.

@Appleblade , you are simply using descriptive terms like "nonsense", "fascistic", "bigoted" or "toxic" to discredit a different point of view, but without providing a real counter-argument of any sort. You are talking about "cultural interchange, adaptation and borrowing" but you ignore the dynamics of dominance, suffereing and oppression involved sometimes in these interchanges. I am not advocating building walls, in fact I am advocating an open conversation and hoping to receive respectful feedback on a genuine concern of mine. The fact that you would encourage other users to not address me directly and that you would simply consider me someone who cannot be reasoned with and who is unable to follow logic is just a shameful personal attack. I don't understand what I could have done to deserve such hate from you. I did enjoy the comment about your cat though, so thanks at least for that.

@aisriyth_ESO , thank you for your comments. I disagree with some of the points you raise, but I am grateful for the feedback nonetheless. For example, you mention that "The Roman Empire pretty much appropriated and/or assimilated must cultures it came into contact with" but then again they also had slavery and gladiatorial games, and the fact that something has always been done in a certain way historically doesn't mean that it's morally justifiable. I am also not saying that Argonians using pre-Columbian elements is necessarily bad, but I am sincerely asking whether present-day Mayans would have an issue with it. I know people who identify culturally with some elements of ancient Rome or with the Vikings, and they don't have an issue with the Imperials drawing on ancient Roman culture or the Nords being inspired by the Vikings, but then again neither the ancient Romans nor the Vikings were ever an oppressed ethnic group. As for Oblivion, my point was simply that it is entirely possible to make a very interesting RPG without elements of cultural appropriation.

@Iink I hadn't considered the possibility that this might be seen as cultural "appreciation" rather than cultural "appropriation". I know some Scandinavian players who really like seeing aspects of their culture depicted in the Nords, for example, and I know some East Asian players who love the Akaviri for similar reasons. I still wonder how Middle Eastern players feel about the portrayal of some aspects of Redguards, for example, but I think you raise an interesting point and something I should consider. Thank you!

@Samadhi Thank you for your reply. It was very insightful, and precisely the kind of feedback I was hoping I could receive.

@Gidorick I'm not really a fan of controversy for the sake of controversy. I am relatively new to the topic of cultural appropriation. It's something I've been reading about recently, and I simply couldn't help applying this concept to a fictional universe in which I am so immersed and invested. I couldn't help asking myself whether in my gaming experience I am doing something which could be considered offensive, so I thought it might be worth it to turn to the community to ask for feedback. I admit that the tone of some of the replies has been rather off-putting and offensive, and it made me wonder whether asking my questions here was the brightest idea I ever had. Then again, some other replies so far have been very insightful and even reassuring, so I'm grateful for those at least.

@cravnbeer You argue that "cultural appropriation is what humans do", but there is a logical disjunction between what is and what ought to be. The fact that humans do something doesn't necessarily make it morally justifiable.

@Ankael07 What can I say, hard to disagree with that: you are quite probably happier than me...

Honestly, I can't help but think you are reading some poor materials since you are clearly looking at cultural appropriation automatically at it in the perspective of an oppressed culture, which somehow makes nords, imperials and bretons not appropriated, i feel if anything that is worse then questioning the use of 'oppressed' cultures. Since it somehow comes across as more legitimate, thus gives off the impression of some sense of superiority which isn't what this should be about at all.

If i am not mistaken, you are largely saying "You are the norm, therefore you cannot be appropriated." Which quite frankly is just as bad as the implications you have made either knowingly or unknowingly about the aforementioned appropriation of oppressed cultures.