The future of ESO with content adjustments (nerfs)

Nifty2g · April 2016

So it came to my attention as well as a lot of people's attention. There are currently a lot of nerfs in ESO, a lot of content goes down this road. The way I see it, it is a very very very bad road to go down, not because of my elitist attitude but we will get to that later don't worry. But because of the power creep we are going to be seeing, and I believe it's going to be a hell of a lot more prominent than it is now mainly because of content being scaled around Champion Points and the Veteran Rank removal.

So from this stand point, we're seeing nerfs because one side of the player base is much larger than the player base and that goes without saying thus putting a strain on Zenimax to keep their business up they obviously need to cater for the average player - especially even more so for a DLC pack, even I understand that.
So because we only have 2 modes avaliable which is Normal and Veteran, Normal mode is very easy you can go in there with basically any gear you want to and easily complete it, so players from the category of not so experienced get a group together and play a dungeon like City of Ash which in my eyes easily completed and finished in about 10 minutes or less. See video for example 6 months ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxRPlZDjPpw

And this happens because players are in the wrong gear, have no idea what they are doing probably don't have an actual gear set and wearing dropped gear and then a large population can't beat the content and ZOS then have to tone it down a little or a bit, which is the normal thing to do. But then it is sad in a way that we can't keep the original content they made for us, the original difficulty was fine in my opinion and it's a shame since then it's less and less difficult.

So here is my opinion, taken from my original thread; and I urge ZOS to look into this. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/216675/concept-eso-pve-nightmare-heroic-mode/p1

This thread and idea is for the players that like a challenge, that want difficult content and player separation from what it is now, because I believe the competitive PvE competition is a dying age hard to revive what it once was due to all of the nerfing content to suit the more casual player. Which is understandable but also HIGHLY discouraging for new players to progress in an MMO with a bright future looking to progress. I believe this concept is an extremely healthy idea for Zenimax to look into, yes I know your team is limited but this would be an amazing thing to provide

The Concept

Currently as it stands Normal and Veteran are too far of a gap between each other, Normal Mode is designed for a new player looking to progress his or her build and start to get into raiding and group content, as it is right now Normal Mode is far too easy for every single player, the damage output of enemies is far too weak against the damage output by you, you are easily able to outdamage them and kill them, and you can do it in pretty much any build. This type of design I believe discourages a new player and gives them false hope so in turn they decide "hey guys lets try Veteran out" after jumping into Veteran Mode straight from Normal Mode, the difference is massive, and I mean really massive, new players struggle and it causes a bad benchmark from that sort of play style jump. Normal Mode should be harder, and Veteran Mode should be a little easier in comparison.

Veteran Mode is designed for the players who have been around for awhile, this has been said many times before. However, this becomes a huge problem because of Zenimax's Philosophy to match content to the larger audience, being and always will be the less *hardcore* type of player. I believe this is where the main problem starts, having content from one Party be nerfed for the other Party to complete, this causes many gameplay clashes and also prevents character and build progression for new players who try to pursue it.

Thus because of this I believe we should introduce a new mode called Nightmare Mode to keep the two parties split and to have an even and productive character progression model. Having the difficultly jump from Normal > Veteran > Nightmare should be manageable yet challenging, for all parties and those trying to better themselves at the game.

What Nightmare Mode Is

The basic construction of Nightmare Mode will be a considerable increase of Veteran Mode, there will be no new mechanics, no new boss fights, nothing extra to do, it will simply increase the Damage Output on Enemies and their Maximum Health, Damage Shields, Elemental Resistance, Critical Resistance and Critical Chance. This would challenge players to learn to move around, to block attacks, and to rethink their build as a whole learning how to sustain their damage, how to sustain their stat resource pools and their reaction times. This mode should not have nerfed damage it should not be touched and modified to fit the casual playerbase it should remain as a benchmark and an achievement to complete this mode for all dungeons and trials.

Not only have we seen many changes to Dungeons and Trials we have also seen changes to how Death Penalties work, this is one of the most discouraging thing Zenimax has ever changed in terms of competitive gameplay, removing death penalties promotes such an unhealthy playstyle and unhealthy competition, promoting how it is okay to die and there is no punishment for it, no life lost, just 1,000 repair bill when your gear decides to break.

Nightmare Mode For Dungeons

There isn't much challenge in dungeons at this current time it's mainly going in for a daily and destroying all of the bosses for a unique item set which ends up being deconstructed for the Style Materials. So to make things interesting for Dungeon Nightmare Mode I would suggest adding in a life counter similar to how Trials Works, or a Dungeon Timer which would be a unique way of having players maximizing their damage to try to complete the dungeon in a certain amount of time to be rewarded with a chance of getting a Legendary Item to drop on the Last Boss if you complete it within that time limit.

Nightmare Mode For Trials

Over the time since Craglorn has been out we have seen a lot of changes to Trials from how they orginially were, for example the decreased Life Counter used to be 32, that was exetremly hard to complete content with, especially Sanctum Ophidia, and the challenge was so great it took a few months to be able to beat the Trial, at least for me and the people I had played with at the time and all the other Top Guilds. I would also propose that Nightmare Mode would include a Death Penalty similar to how it used to be, adding 5 minutes to your overall score but maybe reducing your overall score by 500 points per death.

Nightmare Mode For Dragonstar Arena

Dragonstar Arena would have possibly been the most successful and most unique PvE content ESO will have, the idea is great it causes a lot of teamwork and class balancing to get the best results, the one thing I would suggest for Dragonstar Arena Nightmare Mode would be to give a Timer similar to Dungeons, and to decrease the overall lives that you had, possibly setting a benchmark for each round to be completed in a certain amount of time to recieve a special reward at the end of each round that would be a Legendary Item from Footman, Healer or Master Weapon.

Risk and Reward

Much like many games it becomes a problem when one party is able to complete content and get far superior gear being geared out and flying through content, so since Nightmare Mode has a lot of risk to it, it would need healthy rewards and because the content is the same as what a Veteran Mode would be my suggestion would be to make all of the gear within Trials drop Legendary, this would also be unique because we don't see this in ESO, we have never seen Legendary Items drop, only from weekly rewards it is also a great incentive to keep running content to try and get Legendary Materials.

Another idea being suggested is to add in vanity items such as Skins and Mounts to reduce the need to feel Overpowered compare to the players unable to complete, thanks @Aerieth @PBpsy for the idea

TL;DR We really need 3 modes introduced, Normal, Veteran and Nightmare Mode. Normal is for players who want to see content for RP purposes or achievement even. Veteran should be used as a learning experience for players who want to progress, and get into raiding and better themselves. Nightmare Mode should be the content ZOS develop for us in it's untouched versions, whether it is mechanic changes, health changes or damage changes, Nightmare is designed for the elitists and the bragging rights of the game, and yes, we do need this in my opinion.

There should also be separate leaderboards for Nightmare and Veteran and different weekly, those on Nightmare are not allowed to participate on Veteran - make sure you can't stack all of your characters for weeklies and let other people have their chances.

I really hope you read this and like the idea @ZOS_Finn

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · April 2016

I hate that they nerf content after some point, but there is always a bit of pride in saying "you beat X content before it was nerfed". Not everyone can say that so that is cool in it's own right.

dantheman1972 · April 2016

Don't they have nerfed dungeons, called NON VET? It took me 4-5 months after starting to play, to get to max level, get end game gear, and play enough dungeons to beat CoA. Hell, to beat WGT, I and my team needed 100 more cp than we had when wgt came out.

Tired of the xmas newcomers whining about not finishing end game content, if they have been casually playing the game for 4 months. They gotta put in the time like everyone else. But they have had advantages that none of us original players (and nothing to do with pc Xfers ) had on their first characters (sweet grind spots, easy ways to make gold, cake, cp catchup system, experienced player base, etc).

Now if zos has evidence that newcomers are quitting the game after 3-4 months, because of WgT, CoA, and ICP being too hard, then I suppose a nerf is ok, because the game needs more players.

But I don't Want them to subsidize the dungeons, just because an *** who bought the game 2 weeks ago, was told how to grind by a friend, and now is whining because his blue v15 3rd party made gear and 150 cp and 70 skill points can't finish ICP. Just as Capt. Miller said to Pvt Ryan, "Earn This".

Slayyer-AUS · April 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoosZ7c88u0&feature=youtu.be

Fix your *** lag servers

Nifty2g · April 2016

Slayyer-AUS wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoosZ7c88u0&feature=youtu.be

Fix your *** lag servers

reset your router

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · April 2016

The game is becoming so easy i feel shame when recommend it to my friends.Which is why I dont recommend it anymore.

timidobserver · April 2016

There is a huge portion of the player base that simply doesn't want people to have stuff that they can't have. If ZOS adds nightmare mode, those players will complain about being unable to get nightmare mode gear and it will be nerfed to accommodate them. It will just be the same cycle.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

What if VR is removed and everything post 50 feels like it did at launch on PC ? (Hypothetical)
Would the nerfs be justified then?

Nifty2g · April 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

There is a huge portion of the player base that simply doesn't want people to have stuff that they can't have. If ZOS adds nightmare mode, those players will complain about being unable to get nightmare mode gear and it will be nerfed to accommodate them. It will just be the same cycle.

It's pretty much a 1% mode, where it is designed for the end game raiders, designed to be an accomplishment in beating it. Just imagine when WGT and ICP first came out

timidobserver · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

There is a huge portion of the player base that simply doesn't want people to have stuff that they can't have. If ZOS adds nightmare mode, those players will complain about being unable to get nightmare mode gear and it will be nerfed to accommodate them. It will just be the same cycle.

It's pretty much a 1% mode, where it is designed for the end game raiders, designed to be an accomplishment in beating it. Just imagine when WGT and ICP first came out

Yeh I agree with you, but ZOS isn't going to do that because there is little gain for them. Making vICP and vWGT more accessible will gain them more IC purchases, which makes sense from a business perspective. The vCOA nerf is completely baffling though, I have no idea what they gain from that.

Anzriel · April 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

There is a huge portion of the player base that simply doesn't want people to have stuff that they can't have. If ZOS adds nightmare mode, those players will complain about being unable to get nightmare mode gear and it will be nerfed to accommodate them. It will just be the same cycle.

It's pretty much a 1% mode, where it is designed for the end game raiders, designed to be an accomplishment in beating it. Just imagine when WGT and ICP first came out

Yeh I agree with you, but ZOS isn't going to do that because there is little gain for them. Making vICP and vWGT more accessible will gain them more IC purchases, which makes sense from a business perspective. The vCOA nerf is completely baffling though, I have no idea what they gain from that.

Yeah, sadly I think that this is the case. I don't think they have any intention of making something that'd appeal to so few. I actually like the idea of content you could actually take pride in beating though.

Nifty2g · April 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

There is a huge portion of the player base that simply doesn't want people to have stuff that they can't have. If ZOS adds nightmare mode, those players will complain about being unable to get nightmare mode gear and it will be nerfed to accommodate them. It will just be the same cycle.

It's pretty much a 1% mode, where it is designed for the end game raiders, designed to be an accomplishment in beating it. Just imagine when WGT and ICP first came out

Yeh I agree with you, but ZOS isn't going to do that because there is little gain for them. Making vICP and vWGT more accessible will gain them more IC purchases, which makes sense from a business perspective. The vCOA nerf is completely baffling though, I have no idea what they gain from that.

Grab enough attention and they might do it. Game desperately needs something like this though

7788b14_ESO · April 2016

There are players that simply like to log into the game and play for a few hours and not use spread sheets and build guides. Elites don't like casual players but elite players can't support a game all by themselves. The Devs know this because they see the numbers of players who actually do hard content. I think normal and hard modes would be best but that would required a major overhaul of the system and I'm not sure it could be done at this point.

Nifty2g · April 2016

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

There are players that simply like to log into the game and play for a few hours and not use spread sheets and build guides. Elites don't like casual players but elite players can't support a game all by themselves. The Devs know this because they see the numbers of players who actually do hard content. I think normal and hard modes would be best but that would required a major overhaul of the system and I'm not sure it could be done at this point.

I don't mind casual players
What I do mind is having my guild and I be on a timer to beat content before it gets nerfed and adjusted, content shouldn't be like that and a mode like so would reduce it.

Ra'Shtar · April 2016

I can say with 100% confidence that people who can't complete nightmare mode will complain that they can't get the achievements of that place or that they are missing reward, so it will end up the same way as now people wanting a nerf and ZoS doing it.

Nifty2g · April 2016

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

I can say with 100% confidence that people who can't complete nightmare mode will complain that they can't get the achievements of that place or that they are missing reward, so it will end up the same way as now people wanting a nerf and ZoS doing it.

I'm going to disagree
We have seen 1 nerf to Maelstrom Arena and it was an indirect one due to CP changes but we saw a few mobs get their health reduced which was sort've needed. There has been no health, damage nerfs in MoL.

So to me it looks like they're on the path where they don't blindly nerf content but like I said we're on a timer and we shouldn't be. And it would be amazing to have old content get adjusted to this mode too.

DocFrost72 · April 2016

I like this better than most things I have seen so far, tbh. A compromise, not "Nerf it to Oblivion" or "Don't Nerf them, they're fine!"

Hopefully ZoS is reading, and taking notes ☺

Korah_Eaglecry · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

There are players that simply like to log into the game and play for a few hours and not use spread sheets and build guides. Elites don't like casual players but elite players can't support a game all by themselves. The Devs know this because they see the numbers of players who actually do hard content. I think normal and hard modes would be best but that would required a major overhaul of the system and I'm not sure it could be done at this point.

I don't mind casual players
What I do mind is having my guild and I be on a timer to beat content before it gets nerfed and adjusted, content shouldn't be like that and a mode like so would reduce it.

Youve had more than 6 months to beat that content. Seriously if your guild cant beat that content by then. You might want to rethink the notion of not being a casual.

greylox · April 2016

I can't see it changing, nerfs abound. I remember getting to vet when the game released and silver/gold zones actually being a challenge...something horrible's happened now, it's effort not getting bored with the faceroll. I just don't get it.

notimetocare · April 2016

ESO is in a harder place than most games I think. As much as everyone hates it, take the WoW comparison. WoW has a progression that allows even casuals to complete most of the games hardest content (even difficulty) because it has a progression system. ESO does nto have this, so to get the same effect they have to actually nerf the content because there isnt the gear improvement. As an MMO this is far more of a game built to play 'as you want' (within logical limitation). There are sets that have been near #1 since launch.

Without a progression system, adding new ters is useless because eventually players will want to complete the content, if they can't (even months or years later) they will quit. You can, as a business, keep casuals playing longer by eventually nerfing content so they can have a challenge they can beat. If you want challenge and progression for ESO the dungeons eventually will need nerfed, what you need to ask for is more content. They have plenty of dungeons they can make vet versions out of, they have plenty they can add as new content too. Ask the logical questions, don't cry over nerfs because those casuals that want the nerfs are the ones that keep your game alive and there are very few games where this isnt the case.

Nifty2g · April 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

There are players that simply like to log into the game and play for a few hours and not use spread sheets and build guides. Elites don't like casual players but elite players can't support a game all by themselves. The Devs know this because they see the numbers of players who actually do hard content. I think normal and hard modes would be best but that would required a major overhaul of the system and I'm not sure it could be done at this point.

I don't mind casual players
What I do mind is having my guild and I be on a timer to beat content before it gets nerfed and adjusted, content shouldn't be like that and a mode like so would reduce it.

Youve had more than 6 months to beat that content. Seriously if your guild cant beat that content by then. You might want to rethink the notion of not being a casual.

I beat it on day one and had it on farm on week 1. it's not myself I'm talking about.
What happens if a player comes back and never got to try the content, stop trying to justify and I wouldn't try and use personal attacks either

notimetocare · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

There are players that simply like to log into the game and play for a few hours and not use spread sheets and build guides. Elites don't like casual players but elite players can't support a game all by themselves. The Devs know this because they see the numbers of players who actually do hard content. I think normal and hard modes would be best but that would required a major overhaul of the system and I'm not sure it could be done at this point.

I don't mind casual players
What I do mind is having my guild and I be on a timer to beat content before it gets nerfed and adjusted, content shouldn't be like that and a mode like so would reduce it.

Youve had more than 6 months to beat that content. Seriously if your guild cant beat that content by then. You might want to rethink the notion of not being a casual.

I beat it on day one and had it on farm on week 1. it's not myself I'm talking about.
What happens if a player comes back and never got to try the content, stop trying to justify and I wouldn't try and use personal attacks either

And if people in other games come back after a new teir of gear is released? Old content will always get easier i an MMO and should. ESO has to do this with nerfs to content because they dont have progressive gear

vyndral13preub18_ESO · April 2016

The only real problem I have with it is timing. In most other games I have played, you nerfed the hardest content when you released new hard content. That way the casual could spend some time in a place they had not been before, and those stronger players still had a challenge. So to nerf the top tier of dungeons with no harder dungeons coming out, it seems sort of silly.

Nifty2g · April 2016

notimetocare wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

There are players that simply like to log into the game and play for a few hours and not use spread sheets and build guides. Elites don't like casual players but elite players can't support a game all by themselves. The Devs know this because they see the numbers of players who actually do hard content. I think normal and hard modes would be best but that would required a major overhaul of the system and I'm not sure it could be done at this point.

I don't mind casual players
What I do mind is having my guild and I be on a timer to beat content before it gets nerfed and adjusted, content shouldn't be like that and a mode like so would reduce it.

Youve had more than 6 months to beat that content. Seriously if your guild cant beat that content by then. You might want to rethink the notion of not being a casual.

I beat it on day one and had it on farm on week 1. it's not myself I'm talking about.
What happens if a player comes back and never got to try the content, stop trying to justify and I wouldn't try and use personal attacks either

And if people in other games come back after a new teir of gear is released? Old content will always get easier i an MMO and should. ESO has to do this with nerfs to content because they dont have progressive gear

What are you talking about, all progressive gear is craftable, you can't use that as an argument in this instance.

Slayyer-AUS · April 2016

[FTC] The Adjudicator - 0:22 - 1,015,003 Damage (46,275.33 DPS)

[FTC] The Planar Inhibitor - 0:27 - 1,224,763 Damage (45,843.80 DPS)

Fight doesn't last 30 seconds. Why would you nerf these dungeons why aren't you buffing them

notimetocare · April 2016

Slayyer-AUS wrote: »

[FTC] The Adjudicator - 0:22 - 1,015,003 Damage (46,275.33 DPS)

[FTC] The Planar Inhibitor - 0:27 - 1,224,763 Damage (45,843.80 DPS)

Fight doesn't last 30 seconds. Why would you nerf these dungeons why aren't you buffing them

And how stacked was your group with highend players and steady group buffs? That isnt the majority of content

notimetocare · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

There are players that simply like to log into the game and play for a few hours and not use spread sheets and build guides. Elites don't like casual players but elite players can't support a game all by themselves. The Devs know this because they see the numbers of players who actually do hard content. I think normal and hard modes would be best but that would required a major overhaul of the system and I'm not sure it could be done at this point.

I don't mind casual players
What I do mind is having my guild and I be on a timer to beat content before it gets nerfed and adjusted, content shouldn't be like that and a mode like so would reduce it.

Youve had more than 6 months to beat that content. Seriously if your guild cant beat that content by then. You might want to rethink the notion of not being a casual.

I beat it on day one and had it on farm on week 1. it's not myself I'm talking about.
What happens if a player comes back and never got to try the content, stop trying to justify and I wouldn't try and use personal attacks either

And if people in other games come back after a new teir of gear is released? Old content will always get easier i an MMO and should. ESO has to do this with nerfs to content because they dont have progressive gear

What are you talking about, all progressive gear is craftable, you can't use that as an argument in this instance.

You do not understand the idea of progressive gear if you believe what you have stated. A crafted set of Julianos can be use from the second you hit v16 and never replace it. Progressive gear would mean that just based on raw stats dropped gear from X trial would be teir 1 and higher than crafted gear and then the new trials gear would be tier 2 having higher stats than both. The different atm from trial and ICP/WGT is not enough to call them a progressive tier above crafted. ESO doesn't have a system like that so players cant outgear content to complete it the same way other games do.

Zabus · April 2016

NERF NERF IT ALLLLLLLLLLLL

SanTii.92 · April 2016

Alright, after the first day of madness about this topic I'll casually say we should actually wait and see by how much they are planning to nerf the dungeons. That being said, I like this idea.

You are facing a problem though, proper rewards. Because if you gate gear, even if it's only a minimal upgrade, people goes nuts about it. As we see on normal vs veteran icp and wgt. For some reason, players feel like they are entitled to the best gear when they can't complete the most challenging content. Rewards in gold, entitlements, like titles, achievements, costumes, pets, or an increase of drop chances for set items could be a start trying to solve this issue

Xjcon · April 2016

I like the idea of a nightmare mode. But this game can't hold content to please a small portion of the player base.

Lets say VMOL never gets a nerf and only 50 people NA PC ever complete it before the next thing comes a long (a year from now). You've essentially alienated a huge portion of your player base from the best part of the endgame.

There will always be people who aren't 16-25 with Uber reflexes that play video games, and there is a ton of money to be made from the older generations who have lots of disposable income.

Function · April 2016

I would be fine with these nerfs IF WE ACTUALLY GOT NEW CONTENT. Instead they are just ripping the last remaining "challenging" 4-man dungeons from our hands and making them a faceroll instance like the rest of them. They need to stop giving us these dumb single player storyline DLCs and start pumping out actual MMO content.