@ZOS Console - The Perfect Run vMSA (cant achieve using save) - why this?

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Ouch....I thought the point of the save was to allow people to not have to spend hours on one run.....

Source - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2891319/#Comment_2891319

Achievements

The Perfect Run: This Veteran Maelstrom Arena achievement can no longer be completed if the Arena is started via a saved Quest Step.

So whats the point other than just finishing vMSA if no achieve can be obtained?

EZgoin76 · April 2016

It's so we can practice for a full run without having to save I guess.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

EZgoin76 wrote: »

It's so we can practice for a full run without having to save I guess.

O K, but wasn't that the initial complaint....?

OP - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/235806/not-going-back-to-veteran-maelstrom-arena-until-it-is-nerfed-on-consoles
(paraphrased) but in short....the overall feedback was it was too hard for one sitting.... (my input)So posts like this as well as the other 50+ talked about being able to play...stop and come back to start where you stopped. So removing the achievement rewards *ESPECIALLY ON CONSOLES* is the wrong direction because whats the point of a start and stop if I complete it with no reward .

Here is a quick list of reasons why Malestrom Arena needs to be nerfed on console.

1. 9 trait gear needed.
2. Massive repair, food, potion cost.
3. Horribly designed catered to ranged and primarily sorcerers.
4. Having to respect to a min/max build in order to get the best chance possible.
5. Champion point heavily dependent.
6. No addons on consoles which give a big advantage.
7. Class imbalances

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2528835/#Comment_2528835

ZOS_Finn
✭✭✭
Hey Folks, thought I would chime in here. I know that some people will be happy and some won't but we have no plans to adjust balance in Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Looking at the data, we are happy with the amount of progression that has been made as well as the nature of this aspirational content. I understand that this is not what some of you want to hear but, we are taking a look at some of the more frustrating parts of the Arena that do not affect balance.

Bugs of course are a top priority. We can take a look at these and address them to make sure they don't artificially inflate the challenge. You should see more on that in a future patch.

Things like Repair costs are something we are looking at to mitigate in particular. As for having to respec and Champion points being a big factor, that was the design behind this content. We want players to look at this and aspire to be able to beat it. It can be frustrating for sure, as is any content that is extremely difficult, but it is very rewarding when you make that turn and best the challenge.

One other thing that we are looking at, which is not planned nor on a schedule yet, is saving progress in Veteran Maelstrom. Its something we would really like to do but is not the easiest of things to accomplish so we are exploring how we could go about it design/back-end wise before we can determine the time it would need.

MaxwellC · April 2016

It doesn't need to be nerf'd. There are somethings that need slight changes (mob spawn rates) but it's fine nonetheless.

You don't need 9 trait armor to do so lol I ran it using hunding.
I've completed it on my stamina DK with my highest score 385k.
Your repair cost won't be high if you don't die a lot.
Yeah it's definitely catered to range battles on arenas 2 and possibly 4/5 nonetheless it's still fine.
First time I completed it I had around 360CP so yeah it can be but that's the point I'd assume.
Addons don't give a deceive on look other than more information on mobs health and what time buffs run out which are both awesome things but it really isn't needed for vMSA.
Class imbalance is a thing but most classes have something to put odds in their favor.

jzholloway · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

EZgoin76 wrote: »

It's so we can practice for a full run without having to save I guess.

O K, but wasn't that the initial complaint....?

OP - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/235806/not-going-back-to-veteran-maelstrom-arena-until-it-is-nerfed-on-consoles
(paraphrased) but in short....the overall feedback was it was too hard for one sitting.... (my input)So posts like this as well as the other 50+ talked about being able to play...stop and come back to start where you stopped. So removing the achievement rewards *ESPECIALLY ON CONSOLES* is the wrong direction because whats the point of a start and stop if I complete it with no reward .

Here is a quick list of reasons why Malestrom Arena needs to be nerfed on console.

1. 9 trait gear needed.
2. Massive repair, food, potion cost.
3. Horribly designed catered to ranged and primarily sorcerers.
4. Having to respect to a min/max build in order to get the best chance possible.
5. Champion point heavily dependent.
6. No addons on consoles which give a big advantage.
7. Class imbalances

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2528835/#Comment_2528835

ZOS_Finn
✭✭✭
Hey Folks, thought I would chime in here. I know that some people will be happy and some won't but we have no plans to adjust balance in Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Looking at the data, we are happy with the amount of progression that has been made as well as the nature of this aspirational content. I understand that this is not what some of you want to hear but, we are taking a look at some of the more frustrating parts of the Arena that do not affect balance.

Bugs of course are a top priority. We can take a look at these and address them to make sure they don't artificially inflate the challenge. You should see more on that in a future patch.

Things like Repair costs are something we are looking at to mitigate in particular. As for having to respec and Champion points being a big factor, that was the design behind this content. We want players to look at this and aspire to be able to beat it. It can be frustrating for sure, as is any content that is extremely difficult, but it is very rewarding when you make that turn and best the challenge.

One other thing that we are looking at, which is not planned nor on a schedule yet, is saving progress in Veteran Maelstrom. Its something we would really like to do but is not the easiest of things to accomplish so we are exploring how we could go about it design/back-end wise before we can determine the time it would need.

I think my biggest complaint is this: The intent was to cause us to have to respec to complaint MA/vMA - so, not only do you HAVE to be a DPS, but even if you are a good DPS you will still need to respec and be "better." I understand it, I just don't agree with it. We have enough DPS checks in the game (with no achievements of course) to test DPS skill and ability, the game doesn't need a DPS arena so someone can prove they had enough gold and resources to get through it. Also, in vMA, sadly PC does have the upper hand with addons, which obviously console does not have. Yes, people have completed it on console, but I wonder how much gold, etc was spent.

It would be nice to have something like this for healers and tanks as well - so they have the opportunity to get the gear (glorious defender as an example) without having to respec and regear everytime they want to play it - respecing isn't cheap, and making another set of VR16 gold gear to convert to DPS isn't cheap either (around 800k+ if having to buy the majority of the mats if I remember correctly).

Wollust · April 2016

Skaffas Maelstrom Run
This guy finished Vet Maelstrom in his full heavy armor magicka DK PvP gear.
Now talk about you need minmaxed gear. You just need dedication and effort. And luck sometimes.
If you're too lazy, not good enough or unfortunate to not have the time required it's on your end. And no one else.
Obviously End game content is going to be harder than the usual soloquesting stuff and will require you to have proper gear and CPs. But it's not as bad as you describe it.

Edit: And the idea of the save function was to provide people with a tool to not have to sit there for multiple hours if they can't finish it. But rather just call it, take a break and come back another day to continue trying. And certainly not to get every achievement easier.

Pallio · April 2016

VMSA is for the elite skilled/geared etc. Anytime a normal player says otherwise they will be defended by their elite right of superiority.Yes you need BiS gear, min/max optimal spec, 501 CP, ranged magic builds are easier.. Sure someone will claim they did it in green drop gear blah blah blah... Get geared up and CP cap and bang head on that wall if you want the loots, that is really all there is to it....

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Wollust wrote: »

Skaffas Maelstrom Run
This guy finished Vet Maelstrom in his full heavy armor magicka DK PvP gear.
Now talk about you need minmaxed gear. You just need dedication and effort. And luck sometimes.
If you're too lazy, not good enough or unfortunate to not have the time required it's on your end. And no one else.
Obviously End game content is going to be harder than the usual soloquesting stuff and will require you to have proper gear and CPs. But it's not as bad as you describe it.

Edit: And the idea of the save function was to provide people with a tool to not have to sit there for multiple hours if they can't finish it. But rather just call it, take a break and come back another day to continue trying. And certainly not to get every achievement easier.

I'm not sure of the intent of this comment....it doesn't relate to the "save feature" removing the possibly of obtaining an achievement. Maybe it relates to another comment but regardless of build and method, the save feature was added so players could stop and come back to finish it.

If its only achieve-able in one UN-interupted run, then its not a save feature.

Joy_Division · April 2016

The designers did not want to cheapen the No death achievement(and leaderboard times) with the save system. It was one of the few well thought out compromises on ZoS's part. People can finish vMA and get their chests and completes, but if you want to brag about a time or title, you got to spend the 50-90 minutes or so in one sitting. Not a big deal or asking a lot either.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Here is a quick list of reasons why Malestrom Arena needs to be nerfed on console.

1. 9 trait gear needed.
2. Massive repair, food, potion cost.
3. Horribly designed catered to ranged and primarily sorcerers.
4. Having to respect to a min/max build in order to get the best chance possible.
5. Champion point heavily dependent.
6. No addons on consoles which give a big advantage.
7. Class imbalances

No. You are just making excuses.

You do not need 9 trait gear. In fact, I would make an argument that for magicka builds looking to complete this, the 3 trait Seducer Set is probably the best option.
I can get 100 food free from my guild bank at anytime. Nothing massive about it's cost! Blue/Green generic pots are all that players should be using up until the last boss. Again these costs are negligible. Don't waste you soul gems rezzing at the arena since the 10 seconds you have to wait to pop out of ghost form you could have used walking back from wayshrine. Players who waste "massive" resources have only themselves to blame.
Range is always going to be an advantage in every single combat setting excepting specifically confined 5 x 5 rooms. It is *not* horribly catered. My templar is a melee character and finishes this just fine.
There is zero need to repec. My magicka build is a Nord, have PvP morphs, PvP gear, "wrong" CP distribution according to the min-max experts, and I'm on the leaderboard every week.
Once you reach a CP threshold in which the game's basic mechanics that were locked in the CP system are now made back available to you (such as 10% crit, spell reduction costs, etc), which I would say is roughly about 250 or so, a build is more than capable of completing vMA. I'm not sure why you think console players are somehow more dependent on CPs than PC players, but by the time people are spending their 501st CP point, it's just reducing physical damage by 0.1% or something.
Add-ons are not necessary to actually play and again this is a common excuse tossed around by people who need to justify why they lost or died. I only use add-ons for theory-crafting and to look at the damage log after combat is over. The only add-on I use that I actually pay attention to when playing is a specific one that gives me an sound when sorcerer's crystal fragment proc happens because the visial effect is too similar to the critical surge animation. That is not a "big advantage".
DKs had a legit reason to feel noncompetitive in vMA prior to the TG patch. That was a DK problem, not a "need to nerf vMA problem." This issue has been addressed and all classes can complete and compete in vMA just fine now.

Nifty2g · April 2016

9 trait gear is mainly for trials with warhorns not a solo instance

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

The designers did not want to cheapen the No death achievement(and leaderboard times) with the save system. It was one of the few well thought out compromises on ZoS's part. People can finish vMA and get their chests and completes, but if you want to brag about a time or title, you got to spend the 50-90 minutes or so in one sitting. Not a big deal or asking a lot either.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Here is a quick list of reasons why Malestrom Arena needs to be nerfed on console.

1. 9 trait gear needed.
2. Massive repair, food, potion cost.
3. Horribly designed catered to ranged and primarily sorcerers.
4. Having to respect to a min/max build in order to get the best chance possible.
5. Champion point heavily dependent.
6. No addons on consoles which give a big advantage.
7. Class imbalances

No. You are just making excuses.
You do not need 9 trait gear. In fact, I would make an argument that for magicka builds looking to complete this, the 3 trait Seducer Set is probably the best option.

I can get 100 food free from my guild bank at anytime. Nothing massive about it's cost! Blue/Green generic pots are all that players should be using up until the last boss. Again these costs are negligible. Don't waste you soul gems rezzing at the arena since the 10 seconds you have to wait to pop out of ghost form you could have used walking back from wayshrine. Players who waste "massive" resources have only themselves to blame.

Range is always going to be an advantage in every single combat setting excepting specifically confined 5 x 5 rooms. It is *not* horribly catered. My templar is a melee character and finishes this just fine.

There is zero need to repec. My magicka build is a Nord, have PvP morphs, PvP gear, "wrong" CP distribution according to the min-max experts, and I'm on the leaderboard every week.

Once you reach a CP threshold in which the game's basic mechanics that were locked in the CP system are now made back available to you (such as 10% crit, spell reduction costs, etc), which I would say is roughly about 250 or so, a build is more than capable of completing vMA. I'm not sure why you think console players are somehow more dependent on CPs than PC players, but by the time people are spending their 501st CP point, it's just reducing physical damage by 0.1% or something.

Add-ons are not necessary to actually play and again this is a common excuse tossed around by people who need to justify why they lost or died. I only use add-ons for theory-crafting and to look at the damage log after combat is over. The only add-on I use that I actually pay attention to when playing is a specific one that gives me an sound when sorcerer's crystal fragment proc happens because the visial effect is too similar to the critical surge animation. That is not a "big advantage".

DKs had a legit reason to feel noncompetitive in vMA prior to the TG patch. That was a DK problem, not a "need to nerf vMA problem." This issue has been addressed and all classes can complete and compete in vMA just fine now.

Nifty2g wrote: »

9 trait gear is mainly for trials with warhorns not a solo instance

Hey folks...I am not making excuses I'm only sharing the OP where this conversation took place with dev comments. These points are not my own, HOWEVER the point that is my own is this.

The threads, even the one linked, have a common request and that request is for a save feature to allow the completion of the vMSA which would also include the desire to start/stop but if done right, complete the achievement.

I think you all are focusing on the wrong thing...hopefully this is more clear. Everything else are topics of why one player or another may need to stop or pause which I understand all of your feedback but its circumstantial as this is a real time game and not a call n response so a build, items, traits, addons, CP and respec actually do contribute to some players being able to complete this content. This is without argument as ZOS specifically tells us that this was included by the design and was not and will not bee changed at this time... but does comment as such does have an outcome that is recognized.

Its the whole point why a save feature was added...but part of the ask of removed in this update.
That is the WHY?

Joy_Division · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The designers did not want to cheapen the No death achievement(and leaderboard times) with the save system. It was one of the few well thought out compromises on ZoS's part. People can finish vMA and get their chests and completes, but if you want to brag about a time or title, you got to spend the 50-90 minutes or so in one sitting. Not a big deal or asking a lot either.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Here is a quick list of reasons why Malestrom Arena needs to be nerfed on console.

1. 9 trait gear needed.
2. Massive repair, food, potion cost.
3. Horribly designed catered to ranged and primarily sorcerers.
4. Having to respect to a min/max build in order to get the best chance possible.
5. Champion point heavily dependent.
6. No addons on consoles which give a big advantage.
7. Class imbalances

No. You are just making excuses.
You do not need 9 trait gear. In fact, I would make an argument that for magicka builds looking to complete this, the 3 trait Seducer Set is probably the best option.

I can get 100 food free from my guild bank at anytime. Nothing massive about it's cost! Blue/Green generic pots are all that players should be using up until the last boss. Again these costs are negligible. Don't waste you soul gems rezzing at the arena since the 10 seconds you have to wait to pop out of ghost form you could have used walking back from wayshrine. Players who waste "massive" resources have only themselves to blame.

Range is always going to be an advantage in every single combat setting excepting specifically confined 5 x 5 rooms. It is *not* horribly catered. My templar is a melee character and finishes this just fine.

There is zero need to repec. My magicka build is a Nord, have PvP morphs, PvP gear, "wrong" CP distribution according to the min-max experts, and I'm on the leaderboard every week.

Once you reach a CP threshold in which the game's basic mechanics that were locked in the CP system are now made back available to you (such as 10% crit, spell reduction costs, etc), which I would say is roughly about 250 or so, a build is more than capable of completing vMA. I'm not sure why you think console players are somehow more dependent on CPs than PC players, but by the time people are spending their 501st CP point, it's just reducing physical damage by 0.1% or something.

Add-ons are not necessary to actually play and again this is a common excuse tossed around by people who need to justify why they lost or died. I only use add-ons for theory-crafting and to look at the damage log after combat is over. The only add-on I use that I actually pay attention to when playing is a specific one that gives me an sound when sorcerer's crystal fragment proc happens because the visial effect is too similar to the critical surge animation. That is not a "big advantage".

DKs had a legit reason to feel noncompetitive in vMA prior to the TG patch. That was a DK problem, not a "need to nerf vMA problem." This issue has been addressed and all classes can complete and compete in vMA just fine now.

Nifty2g wrote: »

9 trait gear is mainly for trials with warhorns not a solo instance

Hey folks...I am not making excuses I'm only sharing the OP where this conversation took place with dev comments. These points are not my own, HOWEVER the point that is my own is this.

The threads, even the one linked, have a common request and that request is for a save feature to allow the completion of the vMSA which would also include the desire to start/stop but if done right, complete the achievement.

What do you mean by "common"? Because I participated in those threads and there were a lot of voices against the save feature being implemented at all. That was also "common." Then there were people who would have accepted a save feature if it would not affect leaderboards or used in such a way to save ideal early progress to make the flawless achievement easier to obtain, also "common." ZoS took the middle ground here which was I felt a sensible decision and more "common" than the potions on the ends of the spectrum, the "no save" crowd and the "save is eligible for everything crowd."

I think you all are focusing on the wrong thing...hopefully this is more clear. Everything else are topics of why one player or another may need to stop or pause which I understand all of your feedback but its circumstantial as this is a real time game and not a call n response so a build, items, traits, addons, CP and respec actually do contribute to some players being able to complete this content. This is without argument as ZOS specifically tells us that this was included by the design and was not and will not bee changed at this time... but does comment as such does have an outcome that is recognized.

You are the one who brought the "needed console nerfs" up.

Its the whole point why a save feature was added...but part of the ask of removed in this update.
That is the WHY?

You are oversimplifying things. There was not one single reason or objective or one "why" ZoS had in mind when it added the save feature. Even from what you quoted, ZoS is saying it's not as easy as simply adding a save button and leaving everything else the same. There were a lot of diverse opinions that were incompatible. ZoS opted to go with a middle ground in an effort to make it possible to complete vMA and get chests for those who really wanted the feature but at the same time require a single setting for the competitive leaderboards and the biggest bragging rights title. I think it was a rather sensible decision.

Pallio · April 2016

Save option means you can spend 5hrs a day wiping in subpar gear to get through it in a week. Eventually with better gear/more CP and learning the mechanics you will be able to clear in one sitting, getting achievements. Ie. Endgame content for solo player, super hard to complete and you are awarded with elite weapons. Most will get frustrated and rage quit, so they never get the elite weapons or cool acheivments....

Zyle · April 2016

Pallio wrote: »

VMSA is for the elite skilled/geared etc. Anytime a normal player says otherwise they will be defended by their elite right of superiority.Yes you need BiS gear, min/max optimal spec, 501 CP, ranged magic builds are easier.. Sure someone will claim they did it in green drop gear blah blah blah... Get geared up and CP cap and bang head on that wall if you want the loots, that is really all there is to it....

Incorrect, while I had full CP I used a pure PvP build (impen traits and all), no way near BiS or min/max for a stamblade. All it takes is understanding mechanics and add priority.

Pallio · April 2016

Exactly

s7732425ub17_ESO · April 2016

So whats the point other than just finishing vMSA if no achieve can be obtained?

Obvious answer is obvious. Don't use the save feature.

Any experienced VMA runner will tell you that once you have enough practice, you will be completing the arena in ~1 hour easily with very, very few deaths.

Valrien · April 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

So whats the point other than just finishing vMSA if no achieve can be obtained?

Obvious answer is obvious. Don't use the save feature.

Any experienced VMA runner will tell you that once you have enough practice, you will be completing the arena in ~1 hour easily with very, very few deaths.

Can confirm, last run was 1:08 with 3 deaths (1 was due to needing repair kits, the other two were due to the freaking OP wamasu on state 7 :P...so all somewhat preventable). If I can get a little bit more efficient I can do <1 hour easy.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The designers did not want to cheapen the No death achievement(and leaderboard times) with the save system. It was one of the few well thought out compromises on ZoS's part. People can finish vMA and get their chests and completes, but if you want to brag about a time or title, you got to spend the 50-90 minutes or so in one sitting. Not a big deal or asking a lot either.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Here is a quick list of reasons why Malestrom Arena needs to be nerfed on console.

1. 9 trait gear needed.
2. Massive repair, food, potion cost.
3. Horribly designed catered to ranged and primarily sorcerers.
4. Having to respect to a min/max build in order to get the best chance possible.
5. Champion point heavily dependent.
6. No addons on consoles which give a big advantage.
7. Class imbalances

No. You are just making excuses.
You do not need 9 trait gear. In fact, I would make an argument that for magicka builds looking to complete this, the 3 trait Seducer Set is probably the best option.

I can get 100 food free from my guild bank at anytime. Nothing massive about it's cost! Blue/Green generic pots are all that players should be using up until the last boss. Again these costs are negligible. Don't waste you soul gems rezzing at the arena since the 10 seconds you have to wait to pop out of ghost form you could have used walking back from wayshrine. Players who waste "massive" resources have only themselves to blame.

Range is always going to be an advantage in every single combat setting excepting specifically confined 5 x 5 rooms. It is *not* horribly catered. My templar is a melee character and finishes this just fine.

There is zero need to repec. My magicka build is a Nord, have PvP morphs, PvP gear, "wrong" CP distribution according to the min-max experts, and I'm on the leaderboard every week.

Once you reach a CP threshold in which the game's basic mechanics that were locked in the CP system are now made back available to you (such as 10% crit, spell reduction costs, etc), which I would say is roughly about 250 or so, a build is more than capable of completing vMA. I'm not sure why you think console players are somehow more dependent on CPs than PC players, but by the time people are spending their 501st CP point, it's just reducing physical damage by 0.1% or something.

Add-ons are not necessary to actually play and again this is a common excuse tossed around by people who need to justify why they lost or died. I only use add-ons for theory-crafting and to look at the damage log after combat is over. The only add-on I use that I actually pay attention to when playing is a specific one that gives me an sound when sorcerer's crystal fragment proc happens because the visial effect is too similar to the critical surge animation. That is not a "big advantage".

DKs had a legit reason to feel noncompetitive in vMA prior to the TG patch. That was a DK problem, not a "need to nerf vMA problem." This issue has been addressed and all classes can complete and compete in vMA just fine now.

Nifty2g wrote: »

9 trait gear is mainly for trials with warhorns not a solo instance

Hey folks...I am not making excuses I'm only sharing the OP where this conversation took place with dev comments. These points are not my own, HOWEVER the point that is my own is this.

The threads, even the one linked, have a common request and that request is for a save feature to allow the completion of the vMSA which would also include the desire to start/stop but if done right, complete the achievement.

What do you mean by "common"? Because I participated in those threads and there were a lot of voices against the save feature being implemented at all. That was also "common." Then there were people who would have accepted a save feature if it would not affect leaderboards or used in such a way to save ideal early progress to make the flawless achievement easier to obtain, also "common." ZoS took the middle ground here which was I felt a sensible decision and more "common" than the potions on the ends of the spectrum, the "no save" crowd and the "save is eligible for everything crowd."

I think you all are focusing on the wrong thing...hopefully this is more clear. Everything else are topics of why one player or another may need to stop or pause which I understand all of your feedback but its circumstantial as this is a real time game and not a call n response so a build, items, traits, addons, CP and respec actually do contribute to some players being able to complete this content. This is without argument as ZOS specifically tells us that this was included by the design and was not and will not bee changed at this time... but does comment as such does have an outcome that is recognized.

You are the one who brought the "needed console nerfs" up.

Its the whole point why a save feature was added...but part of the ask of removed in this update.
That is the WHY?

You are oversimplifying things. There was not one single reason or objective or one "why" ZoS had in mind when it added the save feature. Even from what you quoted, ZoS is saying it's not as easy as simply adding a save button and leaving everything else the same. There were a lot of diverse opinions that were incompatible. ZoS opted to go with a middle ground in an effort to make it possible to complete vMA and get chests for those who really wanted the feature but at the same time require a single setting for the competitive leaderboards and the biggest bragging rights title. I think it was a rather sensible decision.

It's not over simplifying it....the overall ask is simple. Let ppl start, save, stop and resume to complete due to XYZ feedback.