Xeven wrote: »

1) With light/medium/heavy attack weaving, it does no good to cast the skill first as light/medium/heavy attacks will not cancel any portion of a skill animation. Just to clarify for anyone watching, you cancel the light/medium/heavy attack animation with a skill, not vice versa.

2) For example, when he is canceling harness with block, you do not see the harness animation at all. His character just kind of jerks for a split second on his client. His opponents client will not even see his character jerk, they will see nothing.

This is the problem with Animation Canceling - NOT MACROS. You can completely hide Reflective Scales, Defensive Rune, Defensive Stance, or any other instant cast skill with a block or a bash, providing zero feedback to your opponent as to what you are actually casting. You can even hide fully charged heavy attacks inside channeled abilities like Wrecking Blow, Jabs or Flurry.

When the animation priorities work like they currently do, what you end up with is a combat system that provides zero feedback as to what skills you are actually using. This is bad for the game.

What ZOS tried to do in TG but postponed, is lower the animation priority of block and bash. This way you can still weave in bash for that extra DPS, but at the same time you can actually see WTF your opponent is actually doing.

I haven't watched the video yet, I will. I agree with your points 1 + 2 because they're correct, but I don't agree with the zero feedback bit just because skills have graphical effects while active. Reflective scales for example has an orange glow infront of the user that rotates to stay infront of the user. Wards are easy to spot, even defensive rune and defensive stance have graphical effects which are obvious when you know what they look like. Animations aren't even unique to individual skills; the hardened ward clap animation for example is shared by NBs (not sure what skill), and the defensive rune animation looks like a sped up inevitable det animation.

I've heard arguments saying animation canceling prevents you from reacting defensively to skills, but I disagree with this too. Any instant cast ability with a travel time, like crystal frags, will have a visible projectile. This projectile can share the same air space as another projectile, say a fire staff heavy attack, but is still technically visible and can be reacted to. Any instant cast abilities without a travel time, like dawnbreaker or mages wrath, do their damage as soon as the user releases the skill buttton, even before the animation, so reacting to these is impossible with or without animation; with these skills you can only pre-empt. Skills that aren't instant cast will have some sort of recognisable animation even if that animation can be cut short such as a crystal frags hard cast or WB.

So I don't subscribe to the idea that animation canceling is bad for the game for the reasons you outlined; it's possible for you to know exactly what your opponent is doing when they animation cancel. The strongest argument against animation canceling imo is that it possibly contributes to lag.

Xeven wrote: »

Nay. Defensive rune is a purple cloud. So is Hardened Ward. So is a Frag Proc, and so is Inner Light. DK is similar but the particles are orange. TPLR is similar but the particles are yellow. NB is similar but the particles are red.

While your argument is true, most skills have a graphical effect, they can be lost in a sea of particles. This is bad feedback if it is your only feedback.

Also, and most importantly, the particles do not tell you anything about WHEN these abilities were used. Reflective Scales for example. If you can't see the wings flap, you can't time your next frag subconsciously without squinting at a character model that could be several meters away.

Also, who wants to play a game where two characters just stand there strafing back and forth, with no animations?

Furthermore, what about people who are color blind or do not have 20/20 vision? Do you actually think that these particles alone are enough? Do you think that there should be no skill animations? That's absurd.

I like animation canceling. We can have both. A global cooldown of one second is enough time to show something. Like it or not, this is whats coming in DB.

Fair points. Noted. I will admit that sorcs particle effects can get lost in themselves, and I hadn't considered the timing aspect. But I still think scales and wards are easy to spot, whether colour blind or not; healing ward even has a different shape to hardened ward, it's more eliptical. I don't think there should be no animations and I would like something to be done about their current redundancy, but I like animation canceling too and I don't want the fluidity of combat messed with. My consolation is that I think the delay in implementation of the new system proves zos understand this too.

ToRelax wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

1) With light/medium/heavy attack weaving, it does no good to cast the skill first as light/medium/heavy attacks will not cancel any portion of a skill animation. Just to clarify for anyone watching, you cancel the light/medium/heavy attack animation with a skill, not vice versa.

2) For example, when he is canceling harness with block, you do not see the harness animation at all. His character just kind of jerks for a split second on his client. His opponents client will not even see his character jerk, they will see nothing.

This is the problem with Animation Canceling - NOT MACROS. You can completely hide Reflective Scales, Defensive Rune, Defensive Stance, or any other instant cast skill with a block or a bash, providing zero feedback to your opponent as to what you are actually casting. You can even hide fully charged heavy attacks inside channeled abilities like Wrecking Blow, Jabs or Flurry.

When the animation priorities work like they currently do, what you end up with is a combat system that provides zero feedback as to what skills you are actually using. This is bad for the game.

What ZOS tried to do in TG but postponed, is lower the animation priority of block and bash. This way you can still weave in bash for that extra DPS, but at the same time you can actually see WTF your opponent is actually doing.

I haven't watched the video yet, I will. I agree with your points 1 + 2 because they're correct, but I don't agree with the zero feedback bit just because skills have graphical effects while active. Reflective scales for example has an orange glow infront of the user that rotates to stay infront of the user. Wards are easy to spot, even defensive rune and defensive stance have graphical effects which are obvious when you know what they look like. Animations aren't even unique to individual skills; the hardened ward clap animation for example is shared by NBs (not sure what skill), and the defensive rune animation looks like a sped up inevitable det animation.

I've heard arguments saying animation canceling prevents you from reacting defensively to skills, but I disagree with this too. Any instant cast ability with a travel time, like crystal frags, will have a visible projectile. This projectile can share the same air space as another projectile, say a fire staff heavy attack, but is still technically visible and can be reacted to. Any instant cast abilities without a travel time, like dawnbreaker or mages wrath, do their damage as soon as the user releases the skill buttton, even before the animation, so reacting to these is impossible with or without animation; with these skills you can only pre-empt. Skills that aren't instant cast will have some sort of recognisable animation even if that animation can be cut short such as a crystal frags hard cast or WB.

So I don't subscribe to the idea that animation canceling is bad for the game for the reasons you outlined; it's possible for you to know exactly what your opponent is doing when they animation cancel. The strongest argument against animation canceling imo is that it possibly contributes to lag.

While I agree to most of the points made. Mage's Fury can be dodged and doesn't deal it's damage instantly when used.

Xeven wrote: »

Nay. Defensive rune is a purple cloud. So is Hardened Ward. So is a Frag Proc, and so is Inner Light. DK is similar but the particles are orange. TPLR is similar but the particles are yellow. NB is similar but the particles are red.

While your argument is true, most skills have a graphical effect, they can be lost in a sea of particles. This is bad feedback if it is your only feedback.

Also, and most importantly, the particles do not tell you anything about WHEN these abilities were used. Reflective Scales for example. If you can't see the wings flap, you can't time your next frag subconsciously. You have to squint at a character model that could be several meters away.

Who wants to play a game where two characters just stand there strafing back and forth, with no animations?

What about people who are color blind or do not have 20/20 vision? Do you actually think that these particles alone are enough? Even if you do have perfect vision at 28 game meters, do you think that there should be no skill animations? That's absurd.

I like animation canceling. We can have both. A global cooldown of one second is enough time to show something. Like it or not, this is whats coming in DB.

And once again, while I agree with most of this. The sound effects can be a very important cue to what is going on, and don't even need the enemy to be on your screen. They are very unique to the individual skills, even when cancelled. When it comes to something difficult to spot like Defensive Stance, I'll still hear it just fine.

Yes sound is one of the most important things. Especially if you are playing the hidden game, sound reveals A LOT of enemies.

Alcast wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

1) With light/medium/heavy attack weaving, it does no good to cast the skill first as light/medium/heavy attacks will not cancel any portion of a skill animation. Just to clarify for anyone watching, you cancel the light/medium/heavy attack animation with a skill, not vice versa.

2) For example, when he is canceling harness with block, you do not see the harness animation at all. His character just kind of jerks for a split second on his client. His opponents client will not even see his character jerk, they will see nothing.

This is the problem with Animation Canceling - NOT MACROS. You can completely hide Reflective Scales, Defensive Rune, Defensive Stance, or any other instant cast skill with a block or a bash, providing zero feedback to your opponent as to what you are actually casting. You can even hide fully charged heavy attacks inside channeled abilities like Wrecking Blow, Jabs or Flurry.

When the animation priorities work like they currently do, what you end up with is a combat system that provides zero feedback as to what skills you are actually using. This is bad for the game.

What ZOS tried to do in TG but postponed, is lower the animation priority of block and bash. This way you can still weave in bash for that extra DPS, but at the same time you can actually see WTF your opponent is actually doing.

I haven't watched the video yet, I will. I agree with your points 1 + 2 because they're correct, but I don't agree with the zero feedback bit just because skills have graphical effects while active. Reflective scales for example has an orange glow infront of the user that rotates to stay infront of the user. Wards are easy to spot, even defensive rune and defensive stance have graphical effects which are obvious when you know what they look like. Animations aren't even unique to individual skills; the hardened ward clap animation for example is shared by NBs (not sure what skill), and the defensive rune animation looks like a sped up inevitable det animation.

I've heard arguments saying animation canceling prevents you from reacting defensively to skills, but I disagree with this too. Any instant cast ability with a travel time, like crystal frags, will have a visible projectile. This projectile can share the same air space as another projectile, say a fire staff heavy attack, but is still technically visible and can be reacted to. Any instant cast abilities without a travel time, like dawnbreaker or mages wrath, do their damage as soon as the user releases the skill buttton, even before the animation, so reacting to these is impossible with or without animation; with these skills you can only pre-empt. Skills that aren't instant cast will have some sort of recognisable animation even if that animation can be cut short such as a crystal frags hard cast or WB.

So I don't subscribe to the idea that animation canceling is bad for the game for the reasons you outlined; it's possible for you to know exactly what your opponent is doing when they animation cancel. The strongest argument against animation canceling imo is that it possibly contributes to lag.

While I agree to most of the points made. Mage's Fury can be dodged and doesn't deal it's damage instantly when used.

Xeven wrote: »

Nay. Defensive rune is a purple cloud. So is Hardened Ward. So is a Frag Proc, and so is Inner Light. DK is similar but the particles are orange. TPLR is similar but the particles are yellow. NB is similar but the particles are red.

While your argument is true, most skills have a graphical effect, they can be lost in a sea of particles. This is bad feedback if it is your only feedback.

Also, and most importantly, the particles do not tell you anything about WHEN these abilities were used. Reflective Scales for example. If you can't see the wings flap, you can't time your next frag subconsciously. You have to squint at a character model that could be several meters away.

Who wants to play a game where two characters just stand there strafing back and forth, with no animations?

What about people who are color blind or do not have 20/20 vision? Do you actually think that these particles alone are enough? Even if you do have perfect vision at 28 game meters, do you think that there should be no skill animations? That's absurd.

I like animation canceling. We can have both. A global cooldown of one second is enough time to show something. Like it or not, this is whats coming in DB.

And once again, while I agree with most of this. The sound effects can be a very important cue to what is going on, and don't even need the enemy to be on your screen. They are very unique to the individual skills, even when cancelled. When it comes to something difficult to spot like Defensive Stance, I'll still hear it just fine.

Yes sound is one of the most important things. Especially if you are playing the hidden game, sound reveals A LOT of enemies.[/quote]


agreed.

when it works properly and isn't cluttered with artifacts and random trash.