So Which Skyrim is Canon?

ArchMikem · April 2016

So since Elder Scrolls Online takes us back to at least a part of Skyrim, we've been able to revisit certain locations we've seen before in our playthroughs of The Elder Scrolls V. I understand that Zenimax had better hardware to work with in order to really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

So really, which version of Skyrim is supposed to be Canon to the universe now, Bethesda's Skyrim, or Zenimax's? Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

The_Lex · April 2016

ArchMikem wrote: »

So since Elder Scrolls Online takes us back to at least a part of Skyrim, we've been able to revisit certain locations we've seen before in our playthroughs of The Elder Scrolls V. I understand that Zenimax had better hardware to work with in order to really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

So really, which version of Skyrim is supposed to be Canon to the universe now, Bethesda's Skyrim, or Zenimax's? Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

Bethesda's Skyrim was 1000 years after ZOS's Skyrim . Things change in a millenium - often drastically.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · April 2016

Well as you said, they have better hardware to design the cities with than what was avalible back in TESVs time. So unless you have a situtation like Winterhold where half the city falls off into the sea, I'd think TESVI, or whatever come next, where build off of the current ESO designs of the cities.

Ahzek · April 2016

I dont really think there is a conflict between Skyrim Skyrim and ESO Skyrim, simply because these games play over a thousand years seperate from each other, a long time in which both structures and even the landscapes themselves can change quite a bit. So ESO is canon for the skyrim of its time and skyrim for its own.

Also these locations, especially the cities, are so big in ESO simply because this game was developed for 3rd person almost exclusively, which requires unrealistically sized empty space both in- and outdoors to make it navigeable from a 3rd person view.
On top the level of detail in most aspects of the environment is actually way higher in Skyrim than in ESO, simply because its a single player game compared to an MMO.

Edit : also keep in mind that the zone borders from ESO are mostly gameplay related and probably will not show up in the same form in a single player game released in the same areas.

Shunravi · April 2016

If you really want to make comparisons, look at the covenant areas compared to tes: Daggerfall.

Callous2208 · April 2016

Everyone already said it but yea, TESV is 1000 years in the future. A lot changes in 1000 years, just look at our own society as reference. Hell, it's remarkable that most of these cities are even still standing by the time the fourth era rolls around. So to answer your question, both are canon.

Uriel_Nocturne · April 2016

ArchMikem wrote: »

So since Elder Scrolls Online takes us back to at least a part of Skyrim, we've been able to revisit certain locations we've seen before in our playthroughs of The Elder Scrolls V. I understand that Zenimax had better hardware to work with in order to really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

So really, which version of Skyrim is supposed to be Canon to the universe now, Bethesda's Skyrim, or Zenimax's? Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

Answer: They're both Canon.

The Skyrim in ESO is set in the mid-Second Era.
The Skyrim in TES5 is set 200 years into the Fourth Era.

There's well over a millennia of wars, conquests, Royalty changes, strife and unrest, etc.

Things change in that time, often drastically so. So what Skyrim looks like in the Second Era can still be Canon when compared to the Skyrim in the Fourth Era.

ESO is purposefully set in a time of the Second Era where little to no Canon Lore existed in the previous Single PLayer TES games. This (with Bethesda's blessing) gives Zenimax and ESO wide artistic license for what happens in this timeframe, and Bethesda has said that what happens in ESO is official Canon. So expect to see it referenced in in-game books and Lore in the next Elder Scrolls single player game.

But both Skyrim's are Canon.

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2016

Pretty sure alot can happen in 1000 years. Like ZOS is apparently adding Kavatch with the Dark Brotherhood DLC you think it's gonna be the same as it was in Oblivion you know destroyed with 100s of daedra running around.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

A lot of things in this game just can't be Canon City sizes is the least of them.

Shunravi · April 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

A lot of things in this game just can't be Canon City sizes is the least of them.

Elaborate?

bertenburnyb16_ESO · April 2016

ArchMikem wrote: »

really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

are u high?
ESV citys were alot more detailed and bigger, take Windhelm as comparison, theres no contest really, in ESV it feels like a city, in ESO it feels like a town
another example if we look at the map, Ebonheart, that little town in stonefalls, takes at least as much map space as ESIII Vivec city, wich was a big city back in ESIII
another issue, on ESO's map, theres no room for Blacklight, the Redoran capital, they filled that up with that ruin on eastmarch's map, and the Redoran lands, wich are supposed to be west of Vvardenfell, is just a silly thin little strip of land, it looks like the mountans east of Eastmarch run straight into the inner sea

in general most (not all) "city's"in ESO feel like towns, and the size of tamriel is way to small in ESO compared to ES standards, so IMO Bethesdas ES world is canon for me and Zenimax s version is just a cheap copy

Luigi_Vampa · April 2016

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

are u high?
ESV citys were alot more detailed and bigger, take Windhelm as comparison, theres no contest really, in ESV it feels like a city, in ESO it feels like a town
another example if we look at the map, Ebonheart, that little town in stonefalls, takes at least as much map space as ESIII Vivec city, wich was a big city back in ESIII
another issue, on ESO's map, theres no room for Blacklight, the Redoran capital, they filled that up with that ruin on eastmarch's map, and the Redoran lands, wich are supposed to be west of Vvardenfell, is just a silly thin little strip of land, it looks like the mountans east of Eastmarch run straight into the inner sea

in general most (not all) "city's"in ESO feel like towns, and the size of tamriel is way to small in ESO compared to ES standards, so IMO Bethesdas ES world is canon for me and Zenimax s version is just a cheap copy

What are you talking about? I think this may be the difference between first and third person. Play ESO in first person and cities look quite big. In third not so much. A lot of open space. Windhelm in Skyrim had like 20 citizens and only a handful of houses. How is a city a city if it has under a hundred residents and no real place for them to live? Cities have to be scaled down in games because of how much space they would take up if they were scaled to actual populations, hundreds of usless npcs clogginh the place up. Cities in TESV had the population of small villages.

Gidorick · April 2016

I like to think of it as more of a "perspective" issue. Two people can visit the same city and come away with completely different impressions of them.

That, or we are on Lyg and not Nirn...

Recremen · April 2016

They are both imperfect game representations of storytelling constructs, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Think of how a city gets described in your favorite novel. Is every molecule given form and shape, with its location described, etc.? No, not at all. Authors cut corners and give a view that encompasses only what they need to tell their story. It's the same in TES V: Skyrim and it's the same in ESO. In Skyrim, they cut corners in detail, and in ESO they cut even more, and went so far as to shuffle some locations around to make it work in an MMO context.

n Skyrim, for instance, the capital of the nation is suuuuuuuper tiny, not even a village in terms of population, if we're going to be honest. But if they were to make a more detailed model, there wouldn't be enough disk space on your computer to even hold it. There would also be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of NPC's that you just wouldn't care about. So instead you have a few buildings, a small slum section, docks, and the castle. There's a couple peasants talking about how life is hard, some Dunmer refugees being treated badly, some merchants, some nobles, and even a crazy murderer. And that's all they need to get the major plot points across! Why animate and voice act millions of NPCs when a couple dozen will suffice?

So in terms of geography, you can think of TES V: Skyrim as more "canon", but it's still a far cry from the fictional potential of the landscape. I mean come on, you can jog across the country before you finish your morning coffee.

Cryptical · April 2016

Set aside the whole aspect of number and layout of buildings. Step back to consider the geology and geography.

Geologically, 1000 years is not even half of an eye blink. Our Yellowstone Caldera volcano is 'overdue' for an eruption... By 40,000 years.

So, look at the shape of the land. The larger-scale terrain. Match up any known landmarks and compare the geographical land masses. Stand at one landmark in each game and compare the view of the landscape. Compare the headings on the compass.

That area we see now in ESO is not the Eastmarch and Rift that we know will exist in half a geological eye blink.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · April 2016

Refer to ESO-Live Ep23. Mat Weathers, the Lead Art designer discusses Imperial City and how they went and used "Oblivion" Imperial City as a base for ESO's. It also has been mentioned in other episodes how when designing areas and cities, they do refer to the Bethesda team, (since they ARE the same Co.), and they do look at previous TES games.
But, I do wonder at "Ebonheart" as it is not in same location as in TES III, or Mournhold, which doesn't resemble TES III expansion at all. But, you have to admit, they did a awesome job with Riften and Windhelm. It has the feel of those cities as they would have been 948 years in the past.
My vote, they are both canon.

RazielSR · April 2016

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

are u high?

Tbh,that was the first thing coming to my mind while reading op.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · April 2016

I wouldn't think there would be a conflict.

We have a similar situation with Mournhold in ESO and the Morrowind: Tribunal expansion.

Lots of things change in a millennium.

Xundiin · April 2016

ArchMikem wrote: »

So since Elder Scrolls Online takes us back to at least a part of Skyrim, we've been able to revisit certain locations we've seen before in our playthroughs of The Elder Scrolls V. I understand that Zenimax had better hardware to work with in order to really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

So really, which version of Skyrim is supposed to be Canon to the universe now, Bethesda's Skyrim, or Zenimax's? Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

Both, Take a topical map of your state. Put it into a program that replicates changes in the earths crust over time. now set the scale back 1000+ years. Tell me if that map looks the exact same, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

They used the same type of program to replicate "known" areas from the games.

Xundiin · April 2016

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Refer to ESO-Live Ep23. Mat Weathers, the Lead Art designer discusses Imperial City and how they went and used "Oblivion" Imperial City as a base for ESO's. It also has been mentioned in other episodes how when designing areas and cities, they do refer to the Bethesda team, (since they ARE the same Co.), and they do look at previous TES games.
But, I do wonder at "Ebonheart" as it is not in same location as in TES III, or Mournhold, which doesn't resemble TES III expansion at all. But, you have to admit, they did a awesome job with Riften and Windhelm. It has the feel of those cities as they would have been 948 years in the past.
My vote, they are both canon.

Ebonheart was destroyed then rebuilt by the Empire in Morrowinds time. As for Mournhold, cities change layouts quite a bit over 1000 years.

ThePonzzz · April 2016

Scaling size in a game world is difficult. Given we have Tamriel at our fingertips, the team did a good job at representing most areas. There are some flaws of course. But due to the Dragon Break, you can easily just claim paradox and everything doesn't have to make sense.

Skayaq · April 2016

Xundiin wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Refer to ESO-Live Ep23. Mat Weathers, the Lead Art designer discusses Imperial City and how they went and used "Oblivion" Imperial City as a base for ESO's. It also has been mentioned in other episodes how when designing areas and cities, they do refer to the Bethesda team, (since they ARE the same Co.), and they do look at previous TES games.
But, I do wonder at "Ebonheart" as it is not in same location as in TES III, or Mournhold, which doesn't resemble TES III expansion at all. But, you have to admit, they did a awesome job with Riften and Windhelm. It has the feel of those cities as they would have been 948 years in the past.
My vote, they are both canon.

Ebonheart was destroyed then rebuilt by the Empire in Morrowinds time. As for Mournhold, cities change layouts quite a bit over 1000 years.

Mournhold was also sacked and rebuilt in the beginning of the Third Era.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

A lot of things in this game just can't be Canon City sizes is the least of them.

Elaborate?

•Argonians "working" for House Dres? The Slaver House is opening enslaving Argonians? This would make the Pact of Ebonheart Null and Void.

•The author of the Lusty Argonian Maid was not yet born in this point of time.

•This is BEFORE Talo so Cyrodiil should be a jungle not rolling hills and farmable land reshaping the land with an unknown shout is one of the signs that he was a living God and not just a warlord.

•Most of the racial powers are more MMO fan service then it is Elder Scrolls history. Cherry picking racials should never be a thing but having three unique paths for a given race would make more sense that one set of passives for each path. Nord warriors and mages have two different things going for them.

•....Mounts their are many cool and bada$$ mounts in Elder Scrolls lore flaming, frost and undead horses were not needed to shake it up.
Rhinos, Wamesu, Camos Tigers and more are all here and free for use.

•Guilds wouldn't have this wide of a spread solo game yes you're the exception to all the rules, but multiplayer no their are NPCs everywhere that say that they don't get in a Stamina Archer Assassin holding the title of Master Wizard is wrong on every level.

•The War less a few camps here and there is contained in Cyrodiil if this much of the fight is not in the home land why have huge armies to defend what's not being hit?

•Imperials have lost all the towns and keeps to the three Banner Armies and now have the Armies battling it out in the districts and sewers what do they control how are they still a thing when they are this outmanned and outgun?

I could go on for a while with this you can't have books ingame with great details about the time before Talos and then ignore it all. That's not how following the history works you follow the history or you make your own thing. But you can't do both this game would be killer if it was full MMO with Elder Scrolls skin or full Elder Scrolls in an MMO landscape but it's trying to be both and that's not a winning mix.

SeptimusDova · April 2016

Both are Canon. However Nirn almost ceased to be. many eons ago whilst the Aedra were cavorting around a Great invasion of locust/virus type of alien life appeared on Nirn and sought to strip mine it of all it's resources.

Before Mer and before Man upon Nirn flourished the Mudcrab and Slaughterfish. Perpetually at war over the waters of Nirn the two joined forces to defeat the threat. By their powers combined they slew the once mighty Earthlings and sent them back through the portal to the realm of Styrofoam.

Asherons_Call · April 2016

There were no cannons in Skyrim

Tryxus · April 2016

Everything is canon

Dem Dragon Breaks

Asherons_Call · April 2016

The_Patriarch wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

So since Elder Scrolls Online takes us back to at least a part of Skyrim, we've been able to revisit certain locations we've seen before in our playthroughs of The Elder Scrolls V. I understand that Zenimax had better hardware to work with in order to really flesh out the level of detail in hub cities, and the map has stayed true more or less in shape as well as the locations of the cities. However it's obvious the locations themselves have been seriously reworked and are almost completely different (and much larger) than their TES:V counterparts.

So really, which version of Skyrim is supposed to be Canon to the universe now, Bethesda's Skyrim, or Zenimax's? Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

Bethesda's Skyrim was 1000 years after ZOS's Skyrim . Things change in a millenium - often drastically.

Mountains don't move (at least not in a single millenium). The landscape feels completely different in this game.

Asherons_Call · April 2016

ArchMikem wrote: »

So really, which version of Skyrim is supposed to be Canon to the universe now, Bethesda's Skyrim, or Zenimax's? Does the Skyrim in Elder Scrolls Online get Canon by default due to it being more thoroughly designed?

Now to give you a serious answer: Bethesda's version is canon. Elder scrolls is Bethesda. Bethesda is elder scrolls (and fallout

) There is no debate.

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2016

Asherons_Call wrote: »

There were no cannons in Skyrim

I'll see to your Breaking Bad and raise you a That 70's Show.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2016

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Scaling size in a game world is difficult. Given we have Tamriel at our fingertips, the team did a good job at representing most areas. There are some flaws of course. But due to the Dragon Break, you can easily just claim paradox and everything doesn't have to make sense.

You can't call Dragon Break a paradox as many times as you would need to use to fix the history and still call it Canon far too many of Talo's Godlike achievements are done in this game if it's this common now if it's so common now why would people be taken aback when one more guy does it?

KhajiitiLizard · April 2016

Xundiin wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Refer to ESO-Live Ep23. Mat Weathers, the Lead Art designer discusses Imperial City and how they went and used "Oblivion" Imperial City as a base for ESO's. It also has been mentioned in other episodes how when designing areas and cities, they do refer to the Bethesda team, (since they ARE the same Co.), and they do look at previous TES games.
But, I do wonder at "Ebonheart" as it is not in same location as in TES III, or Mournhold, which doesn't resemble TES III expansion at all. But, you have to admit, they did a awesome job with Riften and Windhelm. It has the feel of those cities as they would have been 948 years in the past.
My vote, they are both canon.

Ebonheart was destroyed then rebuilt by the Empire in Morrowinds time. As for Mournhold, cities change layouts quite a bit over 1000 years.

You can actually find ruins of old Mournold in the sewers of new Mournold in TES III Tribunal.