Idea to improve dual wield.

Casul · March 2016

What if we made twin fang, flurry, and flying blade (can't remember the original) all have bleed. Twin fang does but I just ment those abilities since they are single target. And now for the big idea. What if we made it so bleed couldn't be purged and maybe increase the damage a bit. I think this would greatly help dw and balance it with the other weapon trees. 2h has rally and wb. Bow has snipe. 1h and Shield has puncture, invasion, and reverbing bash. I mean other then steelnado dw doesn't have much. Also this would make a dot build viable as they couldn't purge so it's guaranteed damage. Please discuss!

Casul · March 2016

Nothing?

Anti_Virus · March 2016

Meh, I think flying blades major brutality should have it's duration increased from 10 seconds to 30 also blade cloak needs to be replaced with something...

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

I agree that DW needs work. An unpurgable (that a word?) bleed might make sense, especially on twin slashes. The reality is that DW seems to be used more for magic builds than stam builds these day, which is a little weird.

-Steel Tornado got a big nerf, but its still the best Stam AoE. It should be left alone. The nerf was probably justified.

-Twin slashes is a classic DoT, maybe a buff is in order. What you propose would certainly have more people running it, especially in PvP.

-Quick cloak is just frankly redundant with other skills like Evasion. I know of almost nobody that runs it. I would like to see this skill scrapped for something else. Perhaps a utility skill like rally would make sense , but either way, this skill is just not needed. Another thought is scrap it for an execute. I have also always like the idea of skill that is essentially the opposite of an excute. Something that hits really hard at full health if you are stealthed, AKA a throat slitting skill.

-Rapid Strikes is another skill that needs looked at. I would honestly be fine with scrapping it for more of an instant cast damage ability, but otherwise, I think the duration needs shortened and the damage increased. A rapid strikes DPS build hasnt been viable in a year unless you are a DK with Maelstrom weapons.

-Hidden Blade is a skill that I just dont like. I think it needs to hit way harder, and while I like the Idea of a weapon power buff somewhere in the DW line, I just dont think this is the place for it. As stated above, 10 seconds is nothing for this buff. If nothing else, it needs the duration increased. Also, out of combat damage buffs are always preferred. I have tried many times to make this viable and just havent found a way to do it.

Forestd16b14_ESO · March 2016

Well maybe ZOS can't start with oh I don't know..... making so DW isn't the ideal weapon for magicka users cause it gives the highest spell damage.

Like come on ZOS I know play how you want and all but duel wielding swords = more spell power than a staff ?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well maybe ZOS can't start with oh I don't know..... making so DW isn't the ideal weapon for magicka users cause it gives the highest spell damage.

Like come on ZOS I know play how you want and all but duel wielding swords = more spell power than a staff ?

I actually dont hate this as is. I think it is a meaningful tradeoff. If you want to maximize spell damage at the expense of a ranged weapon and the ability to weave then you run swords. If you want a nice range weapons and extra DPS from a weave, but a little less spell damge, run a staff. Its not perfect, but I generally like the idea of having options. The flipside is that all magic users have to run staffs, and thats a little boring IMO.

RAGUNAnoOne · March 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well maybe ZOS can't start with oh I don't know..... making so DW isn't the ideal weapon for magicka users cause it gives the highest spell damage.

Like come on ZOS I know play how you want and all but duel wielding swords = more spell power than a staff ?

I actually dont hate this as is. I think it is a meaningful tradeoff. If you want to maximize spell damage at the expense of a ranged weapon and the ability to weave then you run swords. If you want a nice range weapons and extra DPS from a weave, but a little less spell damge, run a staff. Its not perfect, but I generally like the idea of having options. The flipside is that all magic users have to run staffs, and thats a little boring IMO.

Guarshit Flying blade spam is common plus all staff attacks besides lightning and resto staves and all the good moves can be sent back to your face by any class I am ranged yet the range of melee is good enough I can still weave with no problems at all and it is next to impossible to get range in many situations if you wanted to with all the snares in the game. I would prefer all weapons to have universal SD and WD and have the moves and passives be the driving force of builds... Also a final note DW gets 1 additional set item so this can also be imbalanced.

But that cloak move is crap and it definitely needs to be replaced.

acw37162 · March 2016

With axe/s equipped all DW light/heavy/abilities have a 8/16% chance to cause a bleed.

So the idea is solid but already built into the weapon.

Upping the percentage to 12/24 with axes or even 15/30 would be nice but the damage would have to come down on the bleed dot which is now buffed by thamaturge to keep it from being to good.

My thought on weapon balancing;

Remove major Brutality from momentum and morphs and hidden blade and morphs add major brutality and major sorcery to each class skill line

Move momentum and morphs and fighter guild.

Give 2H an new skill either a medium sized AOE or ranged weapon throw ability

Make flurry a front conal AOE similar to jabs

Remove he morph of whirlwind that gives stamina back replace with a morph that does more damage based on targets hit; stamina Zerg buster.

Make a morph of hidden blade a boomerang ability that you can activate as a straight line and return AoE with up three throws out at the same time

This also takes into account the changes mentioned to reverse slice being changed to a stamina 2H Zerg buster

RAGUNAnoOne · April 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

With axe/s equipped all DW light/heavy/abilities have a 8/16% chance to cause a bleed.

So the idea is solid but already built into the weapon.

Upping the percentage to 12/24 with axes or even 15/30 would be nice but the damage would have to come down on the bleed dot which is now buffed by thamaturge to keep it from being to good.

My thought on weapon balancing;

Remove major Brutality from momentum and morphs and hidden blade and morphs add major brutality and major sorcery to each class skill line

Move momentum and morphs and fighter guild.

Give 2H an new skill either a medium sized AOE or ranged weapon throw ability

Make flurry a front conal AOE similar to jabs

Remove he morph of whirlwind that gives stamina back replace with a morph that does more damage based on targets hit; stamina Zerg buster.

Make a morph of hidden blade a boomerang ability that you can activate as a straight line and return AoE with up three throws out at the same time

This also takes into account the changes mentioned to reverse slice being changed to a stamina 2H Zerg buster

Every class besides temp has access to those 2 buffs for long periods of time and if anything I would move vigor to FG instead as it is essential to all stam builds and this way you can get it through both PvP and PvE perhaps add more healing effect if hostile undead are in range. I do agree with the zerg buster part it would be interesting but they should slightly reduce the initial damage of that 1 morph as it hits zergs hard already with enough people using it. flurry the biggest problem is that it is a channel that is can be interrupted slow and it is not the best move for many cases. Boomerang spam is a good idea on paper but I feel it would add more issues in lag they can barely make single use moves fire correctly and NB change to blank effect moves get very iffy in lag.

Speely · April 2016

I like the idea of the bleeds here being more potent. Simple and elegant adjustment. A good start for sure, and perhaps a good solution if done right.

I like DW. It seems subpar because of 2H's insane utility, but it has some virtues. I will agree that it is ripe for a lil love, though. A few ideas to spruce it up a tad:

*Rending Slashes lowers Crit Resistance as well for 5s or so. Fits with the skill's theme.
*Blood Craze recovers Health AND Stamina every 2s.

*Flurry channel time decreased a bit. Same damage per-hit. Morphs unchanged. Just decreasing the channel time would make this a great ST damage skill. Just a .3s decrease would do wonders.

Steelnado is great. Now balanced just right imo.
Other morph could either add Minor Evasion (where IS it??) or drop the Stamina Recovery and add Major Evasion for 2s per enemy hit (refreshes every use so no stacking.) I like the second option. No one EVER uses the other morph in PvE or PvP. I dare anyone to own up to using X in group PvE or PvP content. I DARE YOU.

Blade Cloak is touchy. I made a drunk thread ranting about it recently :P In theory I like it, but I feel like the morphs are meh. After more testing, it's ok-ish, especially in zergy situations and vs bosses with stupid AE, but I would still like to see:
Option One: Extend Quick Cloak's duration with each rank (5s/6s/7s/8s) and make Deadly Cloak drop the awkward ranged attack and just increase the AE damage of the pulse a lot.

Option Two: Revamp skill into a gap closer with moderate (not high) damage that has the OP's nasty bleed. Morphs could A) Grant ME for 5s after attack (a real hit and run skill) and/or

utilize the idea of a reverse execute stated above, doing very low damage to low health enemies but better base damage than any other charge to high health enemies.

I like Flying Blade. I think the damage is fine and the damage buff duration is also fine. This is a long range melee weapon attack that hits harder than most Bow skills and snares while granting Major Brutality for 10s. It's great and offers a lot of versatility for melee builds. If you can't find a reason to use this every 10s, you are a turd. Oh no, I have to refresh my buff with a pretty hard-hitting ranged skill that snares??? FB is good... It's just the fact that Rally is so must-have that makes it seem worse. Working it into a build, especially one with Vigor, opens up a lot of skirmishing options for melee types.

Shrouded Daggers is the morph that needs some love, my friends. Let's not whine over FB because it's the only viable morph. Let's have viable options. Idea: In addition to the existing Shrouded Daggers effects, it also apply Minor Fracture to every enemy hit. Adds a lot of functionality and makes a rarer debuff less so.

OrphanHelgen · April 2016

for pve, dw is better then 2H. Rapid strike is better dps, but in pvp you need burst since you cant heal a oneshot. DW also gives higher stats like crit and weapon dmg witch also scaled with class skills and ultimates. It gives you one set bonus option more, and have execute as passives.
But they could maybe change the skills / morphs that no one uses.

acw37162 · April 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

With axe/s equipped all DW light/heavy/abilities have a 8/16% chance to cause a bleed.

So the idea is solid but already built into the weapon.

Upping the percentage to 12/24 with axes or even 15/30 would be nice but the damage would have to come down on the bleed dot which is now buffed by thamaturge to keep it from being to good.

My thought on weapon balancing;

Remove major Brutality from momentum and morphs and hidden blade and morphs add major brutality and major sorcery to each class skill line

Move momentum and morphs and fighter guild.

Give 2H an new skill either a medium sized AOE or ranged weapon throw ability

Make flurry a front conal AOE similar to jabs

Remove he morph of whirlwind that gives stamina back replace with a morph that does more damage based on targets hit; stamina Zerg buster.

Make a morph of hidden blade a boomerang ability that you can activate as a straight line and return AoE with up three throws out at the same time

This also takes into account the changes mentioned to reverse slice being changed to a stamina 2H Zerg buster

Every class besides temp has access to those 2 buffs for long periods of time and if anything I would move vigor to FG instead as it is essential to all stam builds and this way you can get it through both PvP and PvE perhaps add more healing effect if hostile undead are in range. I do agree with the zerg buster part it would be interesting but they should slightly reduce the initial damage of that 1 morph as it hits zergs hard already with enough people using it. flurry the biggest problem is that it is a channel that is can be interrupted slow and it is not the best move for many cases. Boomerang spam is a good idea on paper but I feel it would add more issues in lag they can barely make single use moves fire correctly and NB change to blank effect moves get very iffy in lag.

Moving vigor does nothing to balance 2H v DW/Bow

2H has the best direct damage stamina weapon ability in wrecking blow the best major brutality buff in the game Momentum (in can be activated anytime/anywhere for an extended duration and activates a heal over time and burst heal when morphed, it also is one of the very skill in th game that offers snare immunity the morph of momentum no one uses). 2H also offers the best stamina regen utility passive in h game plus 30% regen after a kill. The other two weapon choices pale in comparison by a rather large margin.

Yes all classes but Templars do have access but Templars do not have access. The passive activation major brutality is one of the many things putting 2H in pole position

Add to all the already hefty lead 2H has, it simply plays better crit rush into wrecking blow light attack executioner feels and sounds solid. It just feels better, looks better, and sounds better then DW or Bow.

The honest truth is to make bow or DW better you are going to have to adjust/nerf 2H because honestly it's not that DW or Bow are terrible it's that 2H is just that much better.

They have made vigor much easier to attain with th AP and alliance was skills changes moving momentum and buffing Bow and DW is one way to make DW and Bow better without making 2H useless.

One reason they may not move momentum at all is they would have to animate rally for bow And DW.

Also and I forgot to add to my original post you also buff 2H, Bow, and staffs by making weapons that take up two weapon spots count as two pices towards set bonuses.

acw37162 · April 2016

Quite honestly the more I think about it.

Momentum and morphs should be moved to Fighters Guild or Undaunted preferably FG.

And for morphs they both heal over time and burst heal at experiation or re-activation but instead of the major brutality buff one offers a new buff major agility (major agility would provide snare immunity for 4 seconds and reduce the effectiveness of snares for 15 sec; major agility would attach to shuffle also; there would also need to be ine ot two non class abilities which provide major agility but cost magica) and one offers major savagry instead of brutality or minor savagery and minor mending.

So momentum moves to FG

Two morphs both heal;

One offers snare immunity and reduction;

The second offers Marjory savagery or minor savagery and minor mending.

ArchMikem · April 2016

-Rapid Strikes is another skill that needs looked at. I would honestly be fine with scrapping it for more of an instant cast damage ability, but otherwise, I think the duration needs shortened and the damage increased. A rapid strikes DPS build hasnt been viable in a year unless you are a DK with Maelstrom weapons.

I agree. The ability for me seems like bug bites followed by a bigger bug bite to finish it. I'd like the damage output of each hit to be increased at least by 1.5x or even 2x, especially since while you're in the animation you're vulnerable to damage yourself being so close up. It should be a payoff. Do heavy damage at the risk of receiving damage.

GeorgeBlack · April 2016

Deal bulk dmg at first hit. Then the remaining attacks can escalate per strike.
The way the skill is, makes it useless for PVP. Why not spam flying blade animation canceling and block. Useless skill for PVP no matter what.