New feature idea - Party member damage

zerosingularity · March 2016

Now obviously the group damage mod (R.I.P.) was rendered useless, and the reasons have been debated at length.

What I am proposing as a feature is something similar, with a little twist. (Just a heads up, I am not trying to be an elitist tool, I genuinely think this can be used to help a person improve their allies' performance.)

Main Features:

Party Leader only - The feature would only work in groups, and only be available to party leaders. (This can be changed if desired, but my proposal to have only party leaders see the group's individual damage is so randomly added players in a group are not sharing their stats with EVERYONE.)

Not applicable with group finder tool - You want to run with random people and not feel judged or required to turn this feature on, use the group finder tool. This is mostly meant for guild-based groups where everyone is kinda friendly and helpful to one another. (Or cross-guild.)

OPT In - This would be an opt IN feature (prefer opt out, but I think opt in is more politically correct), so you are required to enable it in order to allow your dps to be broadcasted to party leader. This would also function only in PvE-land, where is is more relevant and less likely to draw crown aggro.

Show DPS contribution - This feature would show a readout of each player's (who enabled the feature) contributed DPS for an encounter, in real-time. Possibly in a % or total number format.

How it is shown - This is up to developers, but possibly in a small box or an addition to the hp bars for group members (this means user interface addons can do cool looking things with this)

Why I think it is a good idea:

Not required or forced to use - YOU have to enable it. Though many groups may require it for people that they have never run with before.

No spying on you - YOU have to enable it.

No need to feel embarrassed - If you know you do good dps, you can show it if you want, or not, but it lets you (the dps) PROVE that you are not the problem, if need be. (Or may

A tool to improve allies - There is nothing worse that not knowing that your dps is why the group is having a hard time with content. (Doesn't matter if you copied a pro build from some website, you can still have low dps.) With this, the group leader can have actual data to back up his claims (crown usually can tell if they are experienced anyways) about a particular person not holding their own. Actual hard data helps people improve, and many dps don't run a dps meter/don't know what good dps actually is. (But if your tank does more that you, it IS fair to say you might need to work on your build/rotation, but how would you know this? Oh right, this mod!)

Now obviously you might end up with a leader who insists on having you turn this mod on if you are new, but you are never required to do so. It is possible to end up with a leader who uses this tool, requires it, and is a jerk when you don't perform as he expects, but I ask you, wouldn't they be a jerk WITHOUT this feature?

The main benefit of this is so party leaders in PvE (like for Trials training, vWGT/vICP training) can see if a party member is not carrying their own weight, and help them improve accordingly. This also allows you to provide data to back up any claims, so stubborn players can see proof that they need to work on their build (at least for the content in question). I have met many players who had poor dps and were totally interested in learning how to improve, and I LOVE it. It would be easier to help with this tool, which is why I am suggesting it.

While this idea is not perfect, I think it is still a good idea, so please lets not start a flame war. It is fine if you disagree or agree, but please state why. I am tired of seeing all the ln2plays and git goods all over the place, it doesn't help players improve, but I feel a player with appropriate tools can help others.

Inarre · March 2016

This was already suggested... Opt in/out was still turfed because opt outs can be kicked just for opting out.

flguy147ub17_ESO · March 2016

If things like this would be used correctly and for good cause i would be down for it but it wont be half of the time and can become toxic which is sad. But Elitism is too much in MMOs now, you can be a great player and humble at the same time but that is not always the case. Whats crazy is that a lot of the elitism punks arent even that good of players, the best players i have ran across in years of MMOs are normally more down to earth and humble than the elitist punks who half the time arent that good.

WalkingLegacy · March 2016

ESO is anti competitive. Everyone gets a trophy here.

zerosingularity · March 2016

My idea is to try and prevent some of the negative uses of this feature, and promote more of the positives. It was great before when in the right hands, but I feel just getting rid of it was not ideal, not while it can be helpful.

Besides, players who would kick others just for opting out would kick players for ANY other reason, and are players you don't wanna run with anyways.

Miszou · March 2016

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

Scarletblaze · March 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

Best suggestion yet!

Skinless_Jerk · March 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

Love it !!

flguy147ub17_ESO · March 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

As a gamer who has tanked in every other mmo except this one, totally agree lol. Just because you are DPS doesnt mean you forget every other mechanic to only try to maximize your DPS. Big epeen contest out there.

The_Great_Maldini · March 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

That DPS is also the one who is going to get you past that dungeon boss...

Divinius · March 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

Oh my god, this.

Skinless_Jerk · March 2016

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

That DPS is also the one who is going to get you past that dungeon boss...

Or... One of the other 7.8m dps out there

Shunravi · March 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

Vote kick with role priorities

Teridaxus · March 2016

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

That DPS is also the one who is going to get you past that dungeon boss...

A dead player deals 0 dps.

catalyst10e · March 2016

I'm typically against any sort of feature that can be turned off. Why even turn it on? because someone else wants you to? No thanks... I'm all for cooperative play but the second someone "commands" me I'm out. You lay out good points but my question would be, What stops someone from just telling the party leader their DPS? Consoles can even now see the damage values of attacks and such, screen shots are easy to take if proof is needed. Really the feature is only good to the select few of party leaders, who can both monitor the battle, the dps and group contribution on top of completing the dungeon. On top of that, the bottom line is, did you complete the dungeon? If "yes" then it doesn't matter what numbers appeared on the screen, the goal was achieved. Anyone who would be open to the idea of improving themselves would ask for help or tips. A good group leader has questions they can ask to determine what was going on such as "how was your regen and resource management? were you constantly low from having to spam so much or was it totally manageable?" Depending on who you ask, you can learn a lot, especially if their answer is "yeah it was really low, but that's normal for me."

LadyNalcarya · March 2016

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Can we have a tool that allows tanks and healers to kick entitled DPS that are more concerned with their numbers than playing as a team plz?

That DPS is also the one who is going to get you past that dungeon boss...

If its there of course.

Cause you know, not everyone who joins as a dd can actually do any decent dps.

DHale · March 2016

Yeah sounds good right up to the point where I was told when group damage was a thing that bc I was the healer I should be doing 3/4 the damage of the dps and the tank should do half. I said well no one has died even though you guys stand in red all the time and then I said where did you dream up this crap? Guess what happened next... Got the boot. I agree they put out more damage than me. Sooooo I will say with great sadness many of the pseudo elites of the game really don't play all that well. Ppl will take info and analyze it without context and form opinions and take action without objective data. Example I was selling some stuff during blood spawn boss and got a warning I was not even in the fight totally afk. No healer is needed he is an easy fight I have even soloed him. I got a warning bc my heals and damage were so low (did not heal nor do any) damage. I had sent a group message said afk a few minutes. The group leader didn't care. Group damage said I did 1958 damage per second. Really... I did none and I mean zero. Group damage said I did.... so zos must gave taken control of my afk toon to do damage. Thank zos way to go. I say it must have been my 5000 crown store assistant did it.

LadyNalcarya · March 2016

DHale wrote: »

Yeah sounds good right up to the point where I was told when group damage was a thing that bc I was the healer I should be doing 3/4 the damage of the dps and the tank should do half.

If you meet people like this next time, tell them that if they pulled less than 30k (40 if sorcs), theyre not worthy to be called dds and are just a burden for group.

If you heal and support and they cant kill a pledge boss without your help, its a pretty sad situation.

zerosingularity · March 2016

To be fair, sounds like the majority of people here have some bad experiences with not so cool groups. And for that, I apologize for trudging up those memories.

As a professional (read crappy) healer, and a decent DPS and Tank, I expect the DPS to dps, tank to hold aggro, and healer to heal. It is nice when the tank and healer can put out some dps, but that isn't required if they heal/tank like a boss and the dps are good. (Some fight require differences like vet Darkshade last boss, but that means a change in gears.)

But keep in mind, if a dps has such low dps that they are doing essentially nothing, it may not even be possible to complete the content. (Or it takes 3 hours longer to complete.) Say you have 2 healers 1 tank 9 DPS for a trial, and 3 of your dps are only pulling 5k(Note this is very low DPS for a geared out v16 DPSer), it is rather hard to tell who, but you know someone is not pulling their weight. Not everyone has an installed DPS meter they can use to post info to rule themselves out.

I do mean this in all seriousness btw, there is nothing better than having accurate data to make decisions with. People who use that data to be jerks are gonna be jerks anyway, so you should kick them!

idk · March 2016

There should be means to parse as a group. It helps string raid teams get better.

Those that enjoy playing with their head in the sand do not have to parse with a group and probably are not interested in running with the stronger raid groups.

s7732425ub17_ESO · March 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

There should be means to parse as a group. It helps string raid teams get better.

Those that enjoy playing with their head in the sand do not have to parse with a group and probably are not interested in running with the stronger raid groups.

Group DPS = Boss health / total fight time in seconds.
Average DPS per player = Group DPS / number of DPS roles.

I already use this a lot. It's very simple to estimate the overall strength of a group this way. Of course it doesn't tell you if a few people are carrying everyone else, but it's sometimes also easy to figure that out too.

idk · March 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

There should be means to parse as a group. It helps string raid teams get better.

Those that enjoy playing with their head in the sand do not have to parse with a group and probably are not interested in running with the stronger raid groups.

Group DPS = Boss health / total fight time in seconds.
Average DPS per player = Group DPS / number of DPS roles.

I already use this a lot. It's very simple to estimate the overall strength of a group this way. Of course it doesn't tell you if a few people are carrying everyone else, but it's sometimes also easy to figure that out too.

And the point of the discussion is to determine where improvement is needed,'not the aspect that is obvious and simple math.

Xendyn · March 2016

I want a tool to kick the tools

catalyst10e · March 2016

zerosingularity wrote: »

To be fair, sounds like the majority of people here have some bad experiences with not so cool groups. And for that, I apologize for trudging up those memories.

As a professional (read crappy) healer, and a decent DPS and Tank, I expect the DPS to dps, tank to hold aggro, and healer to heal. It is nice when the tank and healer can put out some dps, but that isn't required if they heal/tank like a boss and the dps are good. (Some fight require differences like vet Darkshade last boss, but that means a change in gears.)

But keep in mind, if a dps has such low dps that they are doing essentially nothing, it may not even be possible to complete the content. (Or it takes 3 hours longer to complete.) Say you have 2 healers 1 tank 9 DPS for a trial, and 3 of your dps are only pulling 5k(Note this is very low DPS for a geared out v16 DPSer), it is rather hard to tell who, but you know someone is not pulling their weight. Not everyone has an installed DPS meter they can use to post info to rule themselves out.

I do mean this in all seriousness btw, there is nothing better than having accurate data to make decisions with. People who use that data to be jerks are gonna be jerks anyway, so you should kick them!

The truth could be said of any member in the group. If the healer isn't pulling their weight, even when DPS isnt standing in red circles, they'll die and you lose out on damage. If the Tanks can't hold threat it's going to put more work on the healer trying to keep the DPS alive. The group damage tool is really only going to call out the DPS. So even if the DPS is sub par, the battle could be taking 3 hours because they have to keep losing threat or self sustaining. It's not promoting the group dynamic, it's placing blame solely on the DPS.

The data also ONLY works for people willing to listen to the criticism. There's plenty out there who think their DPS is fine or above average and feel they dont need someone to tell them they're not pulling their weight. Their experience of "oh man I need to get better" shouldn't be someone else saying "I'm looking at the report and your numbers are far below what they should be." Some people may even be doing those trials and such to get the gear they need to do better, but it does them no credit if they can't find a group because their numbers aren't good enough, so they'll never get the gear they need to achieve the numbers that would keep them in a group.

zerosingularity · April 2016

While I do agree with some of the disagrees here (and am glad there is civility here), I would like to point out that every class can hit 12-15k sustained DPS with agility/endurance/willpower jewelry and crafted gears (only gold item needed is weapon).

I think from this post on, the discussion should now shift towards what the feature could do for us positively if implemented. (Assume it won't be, but think on some of the positive benefits as opposed to the negative aspects.)

I have an alternate idea that I will propose later, that I think is far better and more likely to be possible, but we need to see the usefulness of something we lost, in order to see how to get some of it back in a better way.