Honestly, yes, they should. However, I doubt that they will.

Without it, combat will feel blocked, like your hands are tied. People will call it lag, or unresponsive, and generally poor combat.

I really do not think that most players use this feature deliberately. It is entirely by accident and they don't notice it. If it is not there, I think they will notice it because suddenly they will not be able to attack like they could. They won't know why. They might think it is lag. Those who check the screaming in the forum will learn the truth.

The priority of the animations is a clue about what will happen if they remove it. Animation prioritization did not remove animation cancelling, but it changed how it looked when it happened, and thus changed the cues people used. Based on comments, putting priority in will result in people thinking that combat is laggy and unresponsive.

If they could fix it, they probably would have. I am certain they know where to start fixing it, too.

Not removing it will cause a different pain and suffering.

First, it is destroying PVP. It can double burst DPS in PVP situations, reducing TTK. If PVP gets to the point where the person who attacks first usually wins, PVP is no fun. The game has to avoid that. They have played with damage in Cyrodiil to increase TTK, but it is probably LAG that is doing the best in that respect. (When it is present, animation canceling is harder; people may leave PVP due to lag and those people will be, statistically, animation cancelers)

Second, there is no training or tutorial in the game, or provided by ZOS, in what this is and how to use it. This is why I think most people do not deliberately use it, and do not know how. Some will call this L2P but, in fact, it is more like an exploit in the game that only the informed know about. It is like them not explaining how to pick locks and leaving it to the players to teach each other.

It is very powerful. Between the increased DPS and the fact that a lot of players may not be using it, the player that can successfully use it is going to solo more content and win more PVP battles than the player that does not.

If they are going to keep animation canceling, they need to do two educational things. They need to add it to the Tutorial so that people know about it before they exit Wailing Prison. They need to have tutorial pop-ups that tell when to use it, like with dodge and block. It needs to be very clear how to animation cancel, and when.

The need to change game play so that it is Elder Shields Online, in the true sense of the title. Persistent passive shields equivalent to the character health that are reduced by incoming and maybe outgoing damage and regenerate over time through a "regenerate shield" effect. The only purpose of this is to counter the animation canceling burst damage on the initial attack to allow for animation canceled counter attacks. The passive shields should dissipate so that they are only part of the initial part of the combat and regenerate slowly enough that they are only good for that purpose.

They need to increase the difficulty of some of the PVE content, which is designed for players who do not animation cancel. The places that are used for XP farming are much easier with animation canceling, and I doubt that this is intended. This is not to nerf those places, although this will be the effect, but to simply make them scale to the damage output from animation canceling.

Otherwise, they need to remove animation canceling.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with macroing. I use my KB software to run macros all the time. ZOS has stated many times there is nothing wrong with it as long as #1 you arent macroing unattended and #2 it only does keystrokes and nothing else with the client. My "third party" software came with my KB. It doesnt mess with the client at all. It only automates keystrokes.

Actually, this is wrong, and I thought I should mention this so no one accidentally gets in trouble by following this advice.

@ZOS_MollyH is the person who weighs in on this the most (thanks!) and has said this:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2089721/#Comment_2089721

"Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service. "

If you program your keyboard so that G5 presses "1", that is OK because one keypress (G5) is doing one thing (pressing 1). If you program your keyboard so that G5 presses "1", then presses "2", that is automation and is a single keystroke doing multiple actions.

While it may be hard for ZOS to detect this, it does not make it any less a violation. If they catch you, they can take action against you.

lordrichter wrote: »

Honestly, yes, they should. However, I doubt that they will.

Without it, combat will feel blocked, like your hands are tied. People will call it lag, or unresponsive, and generally poor combat.

I really do not think that most players use this feature deliberately. It is entirely by accident and they don't notice it. If it is not there, I think they will notice it because suddenly they will not be able to attack like they could. They won't know why. They might think it is lag. Those who check the screaming in the forum will learn the truth.

The priority of the animations is a clue about what will happen if they remove it. Animation prioritization did not remove animation cancelling, but it changed how it looked when it happened, and thus changed the cues people used. Based on comments, putting priority in will result in people thinking that combat is laggy and unresponsive.

If they could fix it, they probably would have. I am certain they know where to start fixing it, too.

Not removing it will cause a different pain and suffering.

First, it is destroying PVP. It can double burst DPS in PVP situations, reducing TTK. If PVP gets to the point where the person who attacks first usually wins, PVP is no fun. The game has to avoid that. They have played with damage in Cyrodiil to increase TTK, but it is probably LAG that is doing the best in that respect. (When it is present, animation canceling is harder; people may leave PVP due to lag and those people will be, statistically, animation cancelers)

Second, there is no training or tutorial in the game, or provided by ZOS, in what this is and how to use it. This is why I think most people do not deliberately use it, and do not know how. Some will call this L2P but, in fact, it is more like an exploit in the game that only the informed know about. It is like them not explaining how to pick locks and leaving it to the players to teach each other.

It is very powerful. Between the increased DPS and the fact that a lot of players may not be using it, the player that can successfully use it is going to solo more content and win more PVP battles than the player that does not.

If they are going to keep animation canceling, they need to do two educational things. They need to add it to the Tutorial so that people know about it before they exit Wailing Prison. They need to have tutorial pop-ups that tell when to use it, like with dodge and block. It needs to be very clear how to animation cancel, and when.

The need to change game play so that it is Elder Shields Online, in the true sense of the title. Persistent passive shields equivalent to the character health that are reduced by incoming and maybe outgoing damage and regenerate over time through a "regenerate shield" effect. The only purpose of this is to counter the animation canceling burst damage on the initial attack to allow for animation canceled counter attacks. The passive shields should dissipate so that they are only part of the initial part of the combat and regenerate slowly enough that they are only good for that purpose.

They need to increase the difficulty of some of the PVE content, which is designed for players who do not animation cancel. The places that are used for XP farming are much easier with animation canceling, and I doubt that this is intended. This is not to nerf those places, although this will be the effect, but to simply make them scale to the damage output from animation canceling.

Otherwise, they need to remove animation canceling.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with macroing. I use my KB software to run macros all the time. ZOS has stated many times there is nothing wrong with it as long as #1 you arent macroing unattended and #2 it only does keystrokes and nothing else with the client. My "third party" software came with my KB. It doesnt mess with the client at all. It only automates keystrokes.

Actually, this is wrong, and I thought I should mention this so no one accidentally gets in trouble by following this advice.

@ZOS_MollyH is the person who weighs in on this the most (thanks!) and has said this:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2089721/#Comment_2089721

"Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service. "

If you program your keyboard so that G5 presses "1", that is OK because one keypress (G5) is doing one thing (pressing 1). If you program your keyboard so that G5 presses "1", then presses "2", that is automation and is a single keystroke doing multiple actions.

While it may be hard for ZOS to detect this, it does not make it any less a violation. If they catch you, they can take action against you.

They are talking about addons. My kb is not an addon. They have been very clear using keyboards is not illegal.

You also took the quote out of context. Here is what he asked.

The addons I am referring to are those that allow menial tasks out of combat to be "convenienced" by automating it. Here, we are talking about tidying up a guild bank (Roomba's functionality to automatically stack things in guild bank), consumables crafting (Multicraft's functionality to allow the crafting of stacks of consumables without having to individually activate each process) or equipment changes (Outfitter's functionality to change equipment and skillset by a single action).

Note he doesnt mention anything about keyboards.

I don't like that something unintended has been incorporated into the game without any in-game mention of it. Make it a part of the "tutorial" and I'd have no issue with it. Even if I think it's completely BS that they can't fix it because it's over their level of expertise.

I'd wager that the majority of those in favor of it like it because the people they're killing in PvP aren't familiar with it. Uneven playing field if you ask me.

In the same breath, give us practice dummies to practice this and skill rotations, gear, builds, etc. on and I think everyone would benefit.

TLDR; tell of it in-game via the game (not word of mouth from Forums / YouTube / In-Game Chat).

Minalan wrote: »

Allow animation canceling so that people can still block or switch weapons. But add a short global cool down/lockout for damage dealing abilities. This way combat is still fluid, but it removes some of the ridiculous cheese.

Anyone defending this crap just wants to keep pulling triple animation cancelled wrecking blows in less than 1.5 seconds, and that garbage needs to go. It's game breaking, and anyone with five minutes to program a macro can do it.

Please show me a video showcasing 3 WB within 1.5 seconds.

I'll be back once you somehow manage to get access to TESO source code to modify this.

Animation cancelling is a big part of my rotation as a Nightblade

Okay, Wrecking Blow might need fixing but my weave is simple and not that hard hitting, but it does help: Light attack interrupted by Surprise Attack. I can do the same with 2H Executioner. I don't pull massive damage like WB though, but my crits are pretty nasty anyway.

Animation cancelling is a bit of an odd one; some skills seem to be subject to animation cancelling and others don't (Snipe etc.).

Part of the problem seems to be that there's often a discrepancy between cast times and the length of the animation, for example a lot of skills have 'Instant' cast times but can't be reapplied/cast until the original animation has completed. It would take a bit of work but I'd like to see animation cancelling removed and cast times given as the length of the skills animation which would, in effect, give a sort of built in cooldown for skills; some skills would need to be adjusted to reflect this.

Edit.

I don't have a problem with animation cancelling as a way of interrupting a skill (once you've got Snipe animating you can't do anything until it's played out), in other words damage is also cancelled, but not as a way of delivery 2 blows essentially at once.

Depends on what you mean. If the baseline combat system works any differently, is any slower or less responsive, than it currently is, then no, absolutely not. If it's just a matter of adjusting animation times so that they complete way quicker and don't get clipped just because I then immediately use a light attack or block or whatever, then sure. If people want to see that last 10 frames of my Executioner skill going off instead of the first 10 frames of my block going off, then sure, go for it.

In my opinion, yes, but it's okay. I just preordered Dark Souls 3.

If they don't want to remove it, I'd just like them to consider my suggestion to not allow animation canceling when you hit a blocking target. Would keep the original spirit of blocking "heavy" attacks and then gaining an advantage for an exploit. Just imagine blocking someone's Dawnbreaker and then dropping your block for a punish while your opponent still hast to go through the animation, etc. Should probably go hand in hand with the removal of block casting, but that seems to get even less recognition.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

They are talking about addons. My kb is not an addon. They have been very clear using keyboards is not illegal.

You also took the quote out of context. Here is what he asked.

The addons I am referring to are those that allow menial tasks out of combat to be "convenienced" by automating it. Here, we are talking about tidying up a guild bank (Roomba's functionality to automatically stack things in guild bank), consumables crafting (Multicraft's functionality to allow the crafting of stacks of consumables without having to individually activate each process) or equipment changes (Outfitter's functionality to change equipment and skillset by a single action).

Note he doesnt mention anything about keyboards.

I picked that quote because it is the latest word and really sums up the whole macro/addon/keyboard situation in one easy to swipe quote. This is what I have seen in public, and it matches what I have been told directly by them in private. I have not found any place, in writing, that indicates that they feel differently. Below is another thread. Like the other thread, this is also about non-combat macros.

To be clear, at this point there was an attempt to finely parse the ToS/CoC to see if it was possible to get away with the non-combat "quality of life" macros and addons. I don't think that anyone needs to be asking about combat macros when the non-combat ones get this sort of response.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830/#Comment_1826830

"To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned. "

Under cross examination, she clarified the above statement with this:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

"The use of gaming keyboards and mice are not prohibited, but the use of third-party software or other means of creating macros to automate in-game functions is a violation. I apologize for the confusion!

Just to clarify further, part of the Terms of Service document includes an agreement to follow other Supplemental Terms pertaining to Your Service and/or Game, such as a Code of Conduct, provide guidance on behavior that ZeniMax deems to be inappropriate and specify restrictions on Your Account, Your use of the Game, or Your participation in the Services.

There is a paragraph in the Terms of Service agreement that is as follows:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax

Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns! "

I have said my bit. I firmly believe, based on what I have seen and what I have been told, that what you are doing with the keyboard is, in fact, a violation. Third party software covers both the on-board software in the keyboard as well as the software that programs the keyboard, when it is used to create macros.

Should ZOS get rid of the whiners?

• Yes.
• Yes.

I was a little surprised to see more votes for "yes". I really like the way it works, intended or not.

Minalan wrote: »

ZombieZig wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Allow animation canceling so that people can still block or switch weapons. But add a short global cool down/lockout for damage dealing abilities. This way combat is still fluid, but it removes some of the ridiculous cheese.

Anyone defending this crap just wants to keep pulling triple animation cancelled wrecking blows in less than 1.5 seconds, and that garbage needs to go. It's game breaking, and anyone with five minutes to program a macro can do it.

Please show me a video showcasing 3 WB within 1.5 seconds.

I'll be back once you somehow manage to get access to TESO source code to modify this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIz6J_c9GQc

Get a stop watch. He does three weaved WB's with attacks in between in less than 2.5 seconds.

i stand corrected, I was off by a second.

Point remains, this shouldn't happen. Wrecking blow isn't the only problem either, it's just one of the worst examples.

The game needs a GCD for attack abilities, maybe half of a second. You can still weave in heals or blocking, but two seconds and instant death is too much. It's fun for you but not anyone else.

Unless Zenimax changes something in the code to address this, *nothing* will change. It's simply too effective (double DPS) to NOT macro this. They can say it's illegal until they're blue in the face, but it won't stop anyone from crossing that line. And it's SO ridiculously easy to do with the Razer Synapse mouse program. I should make a 30 second how-to video.

The game doesn't need a gcd, it just needs animations that can't be clipped.

No one cares that light attack is invisible.

But ability animations and ultimates should not be able to disappear the way they do.

Furthermore, most light/heavy attack weaves are fine... you don't see people complaining about them. It's the other things that are being abused that annoys.

ZombieZig wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Allow animation canceling so that people can still block or switch weapons. But add a short global cool down/lockout for damage dealing abilities. This way combat is still fluid, but it removes some of the ridiculous cheese.

Anyone defending this crap just wants to keep pulling triple animation cancelled wrecking blows in less than 1.5 seconds, and that garbage needs to go. It's game breaking, and anyone with five minutes to program a macro can do it.

Please show me a video showcasing 3 WB within 1.5 seconds.

I'll be back once you somehow manage to get access to TESO source code to modify this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIz6J_c9GQc

Get a stop watch. He does three weaved WB's with attacks in between in less than 2.5 seconds.

Congratulations. You effectively proved your own point wrong, and still prove you don't know about AC.

Here are the EXACT timers of when according WB hits (in the order), as recorded by Alcast's FTC:

==Combat starts==
1) 0.709
2) 2.126
3) 3.494
4) 4.978
5) 6.342

Now to calculate the time between 3 WBs:

3) - 1) = 2.785 seconds
4) - 2) = 2.852 seconds
5) - 3) = 2.848 seconds

And, without surprise, the timers respect the global GCD inherent to abilities, not counting the winding time of the first WB. So, as repeated a billion times already...

=====================================
= YOU CANNOT BYPASS AN ABILITY'S GCD =
=====================================

So NO you cannot use 3 WBs in 1.5 or even 2.5 seconds for that matter.

____

TL;DR:
- You cannot bypass a GCD.
- People still speak of AC knowing nothing about it.
- You cannot bypass a GCD.
- Animation with abilities with a casting time (not to be confused with channeled abilities, such as Jesus beam) need a serious review.
- You cannot bypass a GCD.
- AC doesn't magically double your DPS
- Did I mention you cannot bypass a GCD?

Asmael wrote: »

ZombieZig wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Allow animation canceling so that people can still block or switch weapons. But add a short global cool down/lockout for damage dealing abilities. This way combat is still fluid, but it removes some of the ridiculous cheese.

Anyone defending this crap just wants to keep pulling triple animation cancelled wrecking blows in less than 1.5 seconds, and that garbage needs to go. It's game breaking, and anyone with five minutes to program a macro can do it.

Please show me a video showcasing 3 WB within 1.5 seconds.

I'll be back once you somehow manage to get access to TESO source code to modify this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIz6J_c9GQc

Get a stop watch. He does three weaved WB's with attacks in between in less than 2.5 seconds.

Congratulations. You effectively proved your own point wrong, and still prove you don't know about AC.

Here are the EXACT timers of when according WB hits (in the order), as recorded by Alcast's FTC:

==Combat starts==
1) 0.709
2) 2.126
3) 3.494
4) 4.978
5) 6.342

Now to calculate the time between 3 WBs:

3) - 1) = 2.785 seconds
4) - 2) = 2.852 seconds
5) - 3) = 2.848 seconds

And, without surprise, the timers respect the global GCD inherent to abilities, not counting the winding time of the first WB. So, as repeated a billion times already...

=====================================
= YOU CANNOT BYPASS AN ABILITY'S GCD =
=====================================

So NO you cannot use 3 WBs in 1.5 or even 2.5 seconds for that matter.

____

TL;DR:
- You cannot bypass a GCD.
- People still speak of AC knowing nothing about it.
- You cannot bypass a GCD.
- Animation with abilities with a casting time (not to be confused with channeled abilities, such as Jesus beam) need a serious review.
- You cannot bypass a GCD.
- AC doesn't magically double your DPS
- Did I mention you cannot bypass a GCD?

Beautiful breakdown, I can't believe that people are still trying to post this video and claim that you can do 3 WB in ridiculous amounts of time like 1.5 seconds. Argument destroyed.

dday3six wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ZombieZig wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Allow animation canceling so that people can still block or switch weapons. But add a short global cool down/lockout for damage dealing abilities. This way combat is still fluid, but it removes some of the ridiculous cheese.

Anyone defending this crap just wants to keep pulling triple animation cancelled wrecking blows in less than 1.5 seconds, and that garbage needs to go. It's game breaking, and anyone with five minutes to program a macro can do it.

Please show me a video showcasing 3 WB within 1.5 seconds.

I'll be back once you somehow manage to get access to TESO source code to modify this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIz6J_c9GQc

Get a stop watch. He does three weaved WB's with attacks in between in less than 2.5 seconds.

i stand corrected, I was off by a second.

Point remains, this shouldn't happen. Wrecking blow isn't the only problem either, it's just one of the worst examples.

The game needs a GCD for attack abilities, maybe half of a second. You can still weave in heals or blocking, but two seconds and instant death is too much. It's fun for you but not anyone else.

Unless Zenimax changes something in the code to address this, *nothing* will change. It's simply too effective (double DPS) to NOT macro this. They can say it's illegal until they're blue in the face, but it won't stop anyone from crossing that line. And it's SO ridiculously easy to do with the Razer Synapse mouse program. I should make a 30 second how-to video.

The game doesn't need a gcd, it just needs animations that can't be clipped.

No one cares that light attack is invisible.

But ability animations and ultimates should not be able to disappear the way they do.

Furthermore, most light/heavy attack weaves are fine... you don't see people complaining about them. It's the other things that are being abused that annoys.

Hate to break it to you, but when someone complains about animation canceling, they are also complaining about light and heavy attack weaving since it's only possible because of animation canceling.

So is reactive blocking....

So is reactive dodge rolling...

so is reactive weapon swapping....

so is reactive sprinting or jumped...

What some people don't understand is that without animation canceling there would be no way to interrupt one action smoothly with another. They really don't want animation canceling removed, they want the game altered so that if an animation is cancelled, the effect of that action does not apply.

I'm not sure what you think you are "breaking to me".

None of those things have to be changed.

It's just that certain animations have to be made so they can not be eliminated. Particularly defensive abilities, ultimates and skills to a certain point.