AP has value now. Thank you ZoS.

KenaPKK · March 2016

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Zheg · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

There was a guy in a trader guild chat that was lamenting the fact that they accidentally bought with gold instead of AP. I bought a ring with AP for someone I had known for all of 2 nights because I'm sitting on millions and millions of AP across multiple characters. AP most certainly does not have value now.

AbraXuSeXile · March 2016

Is this a troll thread

AddictionX · March 2016

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Is this a troll thread

yes.

zyk · March 2016

I agree with Zheg. It should also be noted this is a mostly short term thing. The drop rate of the new sets is very high. They won't hold value for very long. Jewellery is an exception for now, but only VD with its present hype level will sell like this.

Personally, I would like to see PVP rewards and AP decoupled entirely. After IC, there had been a greater focus on Alliance War objectives that I had not seen in this game since 2014. I am disappointed that since 2.3, the focus is back to farming AP.

I think AP should be used entirely for Alliance War repair/utility items and a new system for PVP rewards should be developed that is primarily based on contributing to the success of one's faction in a campaign. One that recognizes different types of contributions.

In addition, there needs to be gameplay and reward systems designed for players only looking for fun fights and don't care about the Alliance War concept.

KenaPKK · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

There was a guy in a trader guild chat that was lamenting the fact that they accidentally bought with gold instead of AP. I bought a ring with AP for someone I had known for all of 2 nights because I'm sitting on millions and millions of AP across multiple characters. AP most certainly does not have value now.

My point is not that AP is more valuable than gold, but that AP is significantly more valuable than it was before this patch. Thank you for completely missing the point and derailing my thread...

Gold will be intrinsically more valuable than AP for any player because it is the most liquid currency in the game. This is especially true for traders since their game experience revolves around making many transactions in order to build wealth, so your comparison is irrelevant.

Also, a very small percentage of players have that much AP stockpiled. Just because one is wealthy does not mean one's currency is any less valuable than another's.

I would like to see players' average weekly AP spending before Thieves' Guild compared to now. Between buffed siege and FCs and the vendor, I promise you it is much higher.

OtarTheMad · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Completely agree, I used to sit on my AP and was waiting for something to spend it on and now I have it. It's a good step.

Scamandros · March 2016

AP had next to zero value before. Not hard to exceed that really

KenaPKK · March 2016

Scamandros wrote: »

AP had next to zero value before. Not hard to exceed that really

Truuuuuue

I am grateful for meaningful progress.

TheValkyn · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

The issue here is that the vendor doesn't sell scaled items like the Imperial City vendor.

Teridaxus · March 2016

And now nobody wants to siege anything, take scrolls or aim for emperor and just farm ap.

Zheg · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

There was a guy in a trader guild chat that was lamenting the fact that they accidentally bought with gold instead of AP. I bought a ring with AP for someone I had known for all of 2 nights because I'm sitting on millions and millions of AP across multiple characters. AP most certainly does not have value now.

My point is not that AP is more valuable than gold, but that AP is significantly more valuable than it was before this patch. Thank you for completely missing the point and derailing my thread...

Gold will be intrinsically more valuable than AP for any player because it is the most liquid currency in the game. This is especially true for traders since their game experience revolves around making many transactions in order to build wealth, so your comparison is irrelevant.

Also, a very small percentage of players have that much AP stockpiled. Just because one is wealthy does not mean one's currency is any less valuable than another's.

I would like to see players' average weekly AP spending before Thieves' Guild compared to now. Between buffed siege and FCs and the vendor, I promise you it is much higher.

I understood your point just fine. I disagreed, not sure how that equates to derailing. It seems like you're really reaching to try and make lemonade, but the lemons went moldy a few months ago. When the AP vendors that we used to have are back and at max level, then we can talk. Until then, this is just another band-aid stop gap and in no way should be complimented, because all it does is encourage them to do more of it rather than fix the root problems. This is an argument that could be made about any number of topics at this point in time. I'm tired of people saying "well, yeah, it's bad and still has all of these problems, but at least it's something" - no, at this point we need thoughtful and quality fixes, not more band-aid garbage.

KenaPKK · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

There was a guy in a trader guild chat that was lamenting the fact that they accidentally bought with gold instead of AP. I bought a ring with AP for someone I had known for all of 2 nights because I'm sitting on millions and millions of AP across multiple characters. AP most certainly does not have value now.

My point is not that AP is more valuable than gold, but that AP is significantly more valuable than it was before this patch. Thank you for completely missing the point and derailing my thread...

Gold will be intrinsically more valuable than AP for any player because it is the most liquid currency in the game. This is especially true for traders since their game experience revolves around making many transactions in order to build wealth, so your comparison is irrelevant.

Also, a very small percentage of players have that much AP stockpiled. Just because one is wealthy does not mean one's currency is any less valuable than another's.

I would like to see players' average weekly AP spending before Thieves' Guild compared to now. Between buffed siege and FCs and the vendor, I promise you it is much higher.

I understood your point just fine. I disagreed, not sure how that equates to derailing. It seems like you're really reaching to try and make lemonade, but the lemons went moldy a few months ago. When the AP vendors that we used to have are back and at max level, then we can talk. Until then, this is just another band-aid stop gap and in no way should be complimented, because all it does is encourage them to do more of it rather than fix the root problems. This is an argument that could be made about any number of topics at this point in time. I'm tired of people saying "well, yeah, it's bad and still has all of these problems, but at least it's something" - no, at this point we need thoughtful and quality fixes, not more band-aid garbage.

Do you not like the siege changes and forward camps and the vendor? I'm really enjoying how they've changed PvP. Fights last longer, keeps are harder to take and require more than a simple ball group barreling through a single breach, and there are more fights between keeps and on lesser objectives.

Rylana · March 2016

Watching vicious death ring prices tank yesterday was amusing as hell

Zheg · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I just saw a PvPer with tons of stored up AP say "nah, I bought it with gold. Didn't want to spend the AP on it."

ZoS, between forward camps and buffed siege and the weekly item vendor, you've finally given us truly worthwhile goods to buy with our AP.

And they're (mostly) bind on equip, so we as PvPers can actually participate in the markets and make money again!

The AP market system is still not perfect (LF v16 PvP set containers), but it's a huge step forward. Thank you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

There was a guy in a trader guild chat that was lamenting the fact that they accidentally bought with gold instead of AP. I bought a ring with AP for someone I had known for all of 2 nights because I'm sitting on millions and millions of AP across multiple characters. AP most certainly does not have value now.

My point is not that AP is more valuable than gold, but that AP is significantly more valuable than it was before this patch. Thank you for completely missing the point and derailing my thread...

Gold will be intrinsically more valuable than AP for any player because it is the most liquid currency in the game. This is especially true for traders since their game experience revolves around making many transactions in order to build wealth, so your comparison is irrelevant.

Also, a very small percentage of players have that much AP stockpiled. Just because one is wealthy does not mean one's currency is any less valuable than another's.

I would like to see players' average weekly AP spending before Thieves' Guild compared to now. Between buffed siege and FCs and the vendor, I promise you it is much higher.

I understood your point just fine. I disagreed, not sure how that equates to derailing. It seems like you're really reaching to try and make lemonade, but the lemons went moldy a few months ago. When the AP vendors that we used to have are back and at max level, then we can talk. Until then, this is just another band-aid stop gap and in no way should be complimented, because all it does is encourage them to do more of it rather than fix the root problems. This is an argument that could be made about any number of topics at this point in time. I'm tired of people saying "well, yeah, it's bad and still has all of these problems, but at least it's something" - no, at this point we need thoughtful and quality fixes, not more band-aid garbage.

Do you not like the siege changes and forward camps and the vendor? I'm really enjoying how they've changed PvP. Fights last longer, keeps are harder to take and require more than a simple ball group barreling through a single breach, and there are more fights between keeps and on lesser objectives.

My thoughts on this patch are plastered all over the forums. No, I don't like the meta, I don't like the siege changes, and I thought forward camps were derpy since their introduction, including the first iteration.

When it comes time for raid and I'm in a large group, the map has 1, MAYBE 2 battles happening because everyone and their mother stacks up thanks to forward camps and the meta in general. I can try to stay far away from other DC groups, but when red and yellow have 2-4 keeps a piece and they're all fighting at one keep, it's just pvdoor to go hit something else. So no, I don't think things that promote the stupid stacking we're seeing in this meta are good nor do I think they're healthy. I used to go through tons and tons of siege a night, now I go through a handful of forward camps, if that. I'm not spending any more AP than I used to last patch. I won't begrudge you rose colored glasses, but I find this meta the least enjoyable thus far - and there have been some doozies prior.

We don't have to agree on the meta, and in fact I think we largely don't, but when I see people say that AP is worthwhile right now all I can do is roll my eyes, because it's just another weaksauce band-aid from ww2. Huge step forward? I feel like you're trying to pick up a turd by its good side.

zyk · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Do you not like the siege changes and forward camps and the vendor? I'm really enjoying how they've changed PvP. Fights last longer, keeps are harder to take and require more than a simple ball group barreling through a single breach, and there are more fights between keeps and on lesser objectives.

I don't know what campaign you play on, but every keep fight on the busy campaigns is total crap because of FCs. For many, many reasons.

The stated goal of ZOS has been to spread us out. FCs have only served to consolidate populations. 80 players at resource for an hour while 99% of the rest of the map is inactive is just stupid gameplay.

The main beneficiaries of forward camps are those who enjoy Cyrodiil of Duty and the farming blobs who only care about AP/hr because now when they get wiped they can respawn endlessly. These players care nothing about the map. This is asinine because they play a game called Alliance War.

KenaPKK · March 2016

Forward Camps also make it so one big group can't bomb a bunch of less organized people and win a siege in less than 10 minutes, even when sorely outnumbered. The siege changes also serve this purpose.

And FCs are only obnoxious if you do not alter your play to accommodate them. Punch multiple holes in the keep, enter from those different angles so as not to get rekt by siege, and do rotations around the inner to clear camps and stragglers out of the way. Then keep players posted around the keep to prevent additional keeps and siege stations from going up.

I have only seen DC, for instance, start creating multiple breaches in outer keep walls just this week, despite me pushing them to do so -- and often opening up second breaches solo -- for weeks. In the sieges where we've opened multiple breaches, though, entering the keep was much easier.

They've yet to consistently open up multiple breaches to the inner, which is more difficult, but that will further reduce the difficulty of taking keeps as well.

These observations are not from TF primetime. I don't know what you guys do, or how you do it in that lag...

Honestly, I don't see how people can complain about FCs, buffed siege, etc....unless they just want the really big groups to dominate like they have for the last year. These changes make large fights more forgiving and give less organized groups a fighting chance, but they also have clear counterplay to them which organized groups can execute. You just have to adapt.

Darnathian · March 2016

zyk wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Do you not like the siege changes and forward camps and the vendor? I'm really enjoying how they've changed PvP. Fights last longer, keeps are harder to take and require more than a simple ball group barreling through a single breach, and there are more fights between keeps and on lesser objectives.

I don't know what campaign you play on, but every keep fight on the busy campaigns is total crap because of FCs. For many, many reasons.

The stated goal of ZOS has been to spread us out. FCs have only served to consolidate populations. 80 players at resource for an hour while 99% of the rest of the map is inactive is just stupid gameplay.

The main beneficiaries of forward camps are those who enjoy Cyrodiil of Duty and the farming blobs who only care about AP/hr because now when they get wiped they can respawn endlessly. These players care nothing about the map. This is asinine because they play a game called Alliance War.

Completely agree. The AP farmers are real. Remove FWD camps. And please for the love of this game DC, at least on NA PC, attack both sides of the map instead of having 100 in one place. Not sure how it is fun steamrolling like that

OtarTheMad · March 2016

Darnathian wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Do you not like the siege changes and forward camps and the vendor? I'm really enjoying how they've changed PvP. Fights last longer, keeps are harder to take and require more than a simple ball group barreling through a single breach, and there are more fights between keeps and on lesser objectives.

I don't know what campaign you play on, but every keep fight on the busy campaigns is total crap because of FCs. For many, many reasons.

The stated goal of ZOS has been to spread us out. FCs have only served to consolidate populations. 80 players at resource for an hour while 99% of the rest of the map is inactive is just stupid gameplay.

The main beneficiaries of forward camps are those who enjoy Cyrodiil of Duty and the farming blobs who only care about AP/hr because now when they get wiped they can respawn endlessly. These players care nothing about the map. This is asinine because they play a game called Alliance War.

Completely agree. The AP farmers are real. Remove FWD camps. And please for the love of this game DC, at least on NA PC, attack both sides of the map instead of having 100 in one place. Not sure how it is fun steamrolling like that

You make it seem like AP farming wasn't a thing before. AP farming has been in this game since Auriel's Bow and Wabbajack, I assure you. We get that some players aren't willing to change or bend or look at the bright side of things with the comeback of FCs but KenaPKK is right (read the post above you a couple hundred times). You also make it seem like a faction having a lot of its population at one keep is a new thing... also not true and not even close to new at all. Plus they made the radius of FCs so small that only players already in that small radius can rez at them... so it's not like players are bloodporting to FCs across maps. All of the problems stated in your post and the other guys post have been problems in PvP since original launch back in 2014 and aren't new. I get that you think it's exacerbating the current problems but it's not imo. It's helping fuel small groups and giving them some hope that they can save a keep against organized guilds

Big groups DOMINATED PvP because all they had to do was get together, pop barrier and rapids and the keep belonged to them. Trust me when I say that PvP was going to become a wasteland if changes were not made. With the changes to siege and comeback of FCs even these groups have to adjust and rethink. PvP has been great since the patch landed, a resurgence of life almost. You have to think of the big picture here, most of us want this game to succeed and go on for a long time but it won't do that if players, instead of adjusting and changing play-styles a bit, just get something great nerfed/taken out of the game.

Zheg · March 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Forward Camps also make it so one big group can't bomb a bunch of less organized people and win a siege in less than 10 minutes, even when sorely outnumbered. The siege changes also serve this purpose.

And FCs are only obnoxious if you do not alter your play to accommodate them. Punch multiple holes in the keep, enter from those different angles so as not to get rekt by siege, and do rotations around the inner to clear camps and stragglers out of the way. Then keep players posted around the keep to prevent additional keeps and siege stations from going up.

I have only seen DC, for instance, start creating multiple breaches in outer keep walls just this week, despite me pushing them to do so -- and often opening up second breaches solo -- for weeks. In the sieges where we've opened multiple breaches, though, entering the keep was much easier.

They've yet to consistently open up multiple breaches to the inner, which is more difficult, but that will further reduce the difficulty of taking keeps as well.

These observations are not from TF primetime. I don't know what you guys do, or how you do it in that lag...

Honestly, I don't see how people can complain about FCs, buffed siege, etc....unless they just want the really big groups to dominate like they have for the last year. These changes make large fights more forgiving and give less organized groups a fighting chance, but they also have clear counterplay to them which organized groups can execute. You just have to adapt.

Do you know how multiple holes in a keep are made possible? Significantly more people at the fight than in previous patches. A group of 20 cannot maintain siege in 3 locations and survive, but when there are multiple groups plus pugs and the fight looks like the gigantic stacking we see in TG, well, yeah - multiple breaches. With how fast walls are repaired now, you need numbers to make sure they're being tagged the entire time, and you need far more to accomplish this on the inner. You're admitting the problem without actually acknowledging it - forward camps enable alliances to stack far more at a single objective than they did in previous patches. Again, most of us don't see this as a good thing... and you really should experience TF during primetime if you're going to so strongly defend your position, because that's what pvp looks like now and is in no way made better by the things you're trying to defend.

Edit: as to your last point, guess what, large groups are still the most dominant force on the map. We aren't dying to less organized forces, we die to another large group, or more frequently to a large group + tons of less organized forces. When we run a raid, our 'ball group' barrels through the breach just fine in this patch. You're talking like these changes are actually stopping VE/invictus/haxus/victorem when all we're doing is rolling our eyes at them. I don't understand how you're saying the things you're saying when you admit you aren't even playing on the main campaign where the last remaining ball groups are actually playing. It'd be like me giving advice on the sights to go see in London when I've never even been there.

AbraXuSeXile · March 2016

Think this Zheg guy is one of the few with a brain on these forums who doesnt cry from a 1 sided view

Zheg · March 2016

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Think this Zheg guy is one of the few with a brain on these forums who doesnt cry from a 1 sided view

Ahem, wrong. I am a zergling baddie who is and continues to be rekt by these changes (as predicted weeks ago) because the only thing that let us win fights previously was barrier and all I do is brainlessly spam tornado. I complain on the forums because everything I disagree with stems from the fact that I'll play in a large group at night and I want every change in the game to benefit that playstyle, and in no way am able to objectively look at changes as to their overall effect for the health of pvp.

Or so I've been told.

Zorgon_The_Revenged · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

It'd be like me giving advice on the sights to go see in London when I've never even been there.

T-shirt?

Ghostbane · March 2016

Rylana wrote: »

Watching vicious death ring prices tank yesterday was amusing as hell

And then the necks increasing to silly prices.

HoloYoitsu · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Think this Zheg guy is one of the few with a brain on these forums who doesnt cry from a 1 sided view

Ahem, wrong. I am a zergling baddie who is and continues to be rekt by these changes (as predicted weeks ago) because the only thing that let us win fights previously was barrier and all I do is brainlessly spam tornado. I complain on the forums because everything I disagree with stems from the fact that I'll play in a large group at night and I want every change in the game to benefit that playstyle, and in no way am able to objectively look at changes as to their overall effect for the health of pvp.

Or so I've been told.

Why haven't you rage quit now that skill matters?

Zheg · March 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Think this Zheg guy is one of the few with a brain on these forums who doesnt cry from a 1 sided view

Ahem, wrong. I am a zergling baddie who is and continues to be rekt by these changes (as predicted weeks ago) because the only thing that let us win fights previously was barrier and all I do is brainlessly spam tornado. I complain on the forums because everything I disagree with stems from the fact that I'll play in a large group at night and I want every change in the game to benefit that playstyle, and in no way am able to objectively look at changes as to their overall effect for the health of pvp.

Or so I've been told.

Why haven't you rage quit now that skill matters?

Duh, because I can still do just fine sitting on siege all day and left clicking. It makes me a good player, and I no longer have to use my 1-5 abilities or worry about weapon swapping. This was meant to be my meta all along, screw barrier.

GRxKnight · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Think this Zheg guy is one of the few with a brain on these forums who doesnt cry from a 1 sided view

Ahem, wrong. I am a zergling baddie who is and continues to be rekt by these changes (as predicted weeks ago) because the only thing that let us win fights previously was barrier and all I do is brainlessly spam tornado. I complain on the forums because everything I disagree with stems from the fact that I'll play in a large group at night and I want every change in the game to benefit that playstyle, and in no way am able to objectively look at changes as to their overall effect for the health of pvp.

Confirmed VE contains zergling baddies

HoloYoitsu · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Think this Zheg guy is one of the few with a brain on these forums who doesnt cry from a 1 sided view

Ahem, wrong. I am a zergling baddie who is and continues to be rekt by these changes (as predicted weeks ago) because the only thing that let us win fights previously was barrier and all I do is brainlessly spam tornado. I complain on the forums because everything I disagree with stems from the fact that I'll play in a large group at night and I want every change in the game to benefit that playstyle, and in no way am able to objectively look at changes as to their overall effect for the health of pvp.

Or so I've been told.

Why haven't you rage quit now that skill matters?

Duh, because I can still do just fine sitting on siege all day and left clicking. It makes me a good player, and I no longer have to use my 1-5 abilities or worry about weapon swapping. This was meant to be my meta all along, screw barrier.

I'm not sure you have proper zoning permits to add siege upgrades to your Templar house.

GRxKnight wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Think this Zheg guy is one of the few with a brain on these forums who doesnt cry from a 1 sided view

Ahem, wrong. I am a zergling baddie who is and continues to be rekt by these changes (as predicted weeks ago) because the only thing that let us win fights previously was barrier and all I do is brainlessly spam tornado. I complain on the forums because everything I disagree with stems from the fact that I'll play in a large group at night and I want every change in the game to benefit that playstyle, and in no way am able to objectively look at changes as to their overall effect for the health of pvp.

Confirmed VE contains zergling baddies

Their auto invite string is EG.

Lava_Croft · March 2016

AP has the same value to me as engineers do to ZOS.

heystreethawk · March 2016

Nice fights on Had last night, VE! Looking down at the multiple walls under siege I yelled to me group 'TIS BUT THE DREAM OF FROZN, GIVEN FORM

KenaPKK · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Forward Camps also make it so one big group can't bomb a bunch of less organized people and win a siege in less than 10 minutes, even when sorely outnumbered. The siege changes also serve this purpose.

And FCs are only obnoxious if you do not alter your play to accommodate them. Punch multiple holes in the keep, enter from those different angles so as not to get rekt by siege, and do rotations around the inner to clear camps and stragglers out of the way. Then keep players posted around the keep to prevent additional keeps and siege stations from going up.

I have only seen DC, for instance, start creating multiple breaches in outer keep walls just this week, despite me pushing them to do so -- and often opening up second breaches solo -- for weeks. In the sieges where we've opened multiple breaches, though, entering the keep was much easier.

They've yet to consistently open up multiple breaches to the inner, which is more difficult, but that will further reduce the difficulty of taking keeps as well.

These observations are not from TF primetime. I don't know what you guys do, or how you do it in that lag...

Honestly, I don't see how people can complain about FCs, buffed siege, etc....unless they just want the really big groups to dominate like they have for the last year. These changes make large fights more forgiving and give less organized groups a fighting chance, but they also have clear counterplay to them which organized groups can execute. You just have to adapt.

Do you know how multiple holes in a keep are made possible? Significantly more people at the fight than in previous patches. A group of 20 cannot maintain siege in 3 locations and survive, but when there are multiple groups plus pugs and the fight looks like the gigantic stacking we see in TG, well, yeah - multiple breaches. With how fast walls are repaired now, you need numbers to make sure they're being tagged the entire time, and you need far more to accomplish this on the inner. You're admitting the problem without actually acknowledging it - forward camps enable alliances to stack far more at a single objective than they did in previous patches. Again, most of us don't see this as a good thing... and you really should experience TF during primetime if you're going to so strongly defend your position, because that's what pvp looks like now and is in no way made better by the things you're trying to defend.

Edit: as to your last point, guess what, large groups are still the most dominant force on the map. We aren't dying to less organized forces, we die to another large group, or more frequently to a large group + tons of less organized forces. When we run a raid, our 'ball group' barrels through the breach just fine in this patch. You're talking like these changes are actually stopping VE/invictus/haxus/victorem when all we're doing is rolling our eyes at them. I don't understand how you're saying the things you're saying when you admit you aren't even playing on the main campaign where the last remaining ball groups are actually playing. It'd be like me giving advice on the sights to go see in London when I've never even been there.

Players have always gravitated to one or two major conflicts on the map. There have always been major battles where the factions meet, and I remember many fights before TG where entire factions would fight over emp ring keeps. This is nothing new.

If anything, I'm noticing more spread out fighting on the map. FCs encourage smaller fights outside of the inner lanes because they remove the risk of having to ride all the way back out there if you wipe.

What FCs do is sustain fights, allowing combat to persist past one or two pushes.

But if you have a problem with FCs, go burn them. I burned over a dozen AD forward camps at VE's siege of Roe last night without dying, occupying as many as 18 AD chasing me around the walls at one point and giving our forces windows to fight without AD spawning back instantly.

Not one other DC made an attempt on the camps that I saw. Instead of complaining about how inconvenient the camps are, try training a designated camp hunter group to go take care of them.