The reason why scaled content needs adjusting for new players

Benie · March 2016

Orsinium and Thieves Guild, both scaled to VR16. And for some magical reason, you too are scaled to VR16. Your stats are, anyway (for the most part). Yet your weapon damage... isn't scaled. Why?
However, this focuses on Orsinium as it's more combat-based than being sneaky and avoiding god-like guards.

Why am I not able to kill a VR16 there, in the same speed I'm able to kill ... say a Level 35 (as a Level 35)? Both mobs have the same armor. Both mobs have the same debuffs. Except the VR16 one is like a mini-boss, having a hell lot of more HP. Infact, they ALL are. And it takes me over 15 seconds to hack and slash until the mob dies.
I'm supposed to be scaled to VR16. Doesn't this mean I'm supposed to do really good damage as a VR16? Something tells me that the player's gear, isn't part of the scaling. And that gear is roughly the same level (mostly blue) as a Level 35 should.
What drove me away from doing this content, is seeing a boss mob with 144k health. Hitting me like a tank. I'm forced to run around and lose all of my Stamina. The same Stamina I use for my main attacks (as a Stamina build). And also, the same Stamina I use for my only way of healing myself (Rally). That day was not pretty.

I asked my guild once, "why does it take so long?" And they ask me: "why are you in vet content?" 'Vet Content'. They explain that vet content is after completing Cadwell's Silver and Gold (and hitting VR16). Not before. So this means, endgame content, yes? Content that should ONLY..be done as a VR16.
So... why have a scale? And I think (hell.. it's plainly obvious) I know the answer. To milk as much money out of their customers and not care about if their gear is good or not.

So I ask you, do you feel ZoS should had put a warning or some kind of block (or even redo the whole scaling system) to give new players more of a chance to enjoy the content? More of a chance that killing mobs was the same speed from start to finish as a mob their level?
As I see it currently, if you aren't geared well and/or haven't mastered your class, you're screwed if you wish to do this content. ZoS has opened the door to this content, yet offers no warning of what to expect. All they see is dollar signs in their eyes instead of if their players are happy with their game.

TL/DR: I don't hit as hard as I do on non-vet mobs, when I'm supposed to be 'scaled' to VR16. And I feel it should be changed.

starkerealm · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

So... why have a scale? And I think (hell.. it's plainly obvious) I know the answer. To milk as much money out of their customers and not care about if their gear is good or not.

That's probably a little more cynical than warranted. You're right, basically. It's about being able to sell content to as many players as possible. But, I wouldn't ascribe any particular avarice to it.

Also, and I say this as a vet 16, the enemies in Orsinium and Hew's Bane are spongy. When I first ran into the 30k hipoint enemies in the IC, I figured, "well, no big deal, this is group content, right?"

Yeah... so... turns out, that's the default for V16. Which is kinda annoying. Killing level 35 enemies on a level 35 will take less time than killing V16 enemies on a V16 character with a normal build.

It's not too onerous, but it doesn't really feel like progression.

Now, once you get to V16, you can start working on converting your build into something amazing. But, at the same time, the Vet content skews harder than the pre-vet content. And that's not even a build issue. It's been like this since launch. Actually, at launch, Vet Content had a "real Dark Souls begins here" feel to it. Though, ZOS walked that one back later.

And the DLC zones reflect that. This is end game content, it is supposed to be more difficult... unfortunately, that translates into spongier enemies, which is probably the least interesting kind of difficulty.

hrothbern · March 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Benie wrote: »

So... why have a scale? And I think (hell.. it's plainly obvious) I know the answer. To milk as much money out of their customers and not care about if their gear is good or not.

That's probably a little more cynical than warranted. You're right, basically. It's about being able to sell content to as many players as possible. But, I wouldn't ascribe any particular avarice to it.

Also, and I say this as a vet 16, the enemies in Orsinium and Hew's Bane are spongy. When I first ran into the 30k hipoint enemies in the IC, I figured, "well, no big deal, this is group content, right?"

Yeah... so... turns out, that's the default for V16. Which is kinda annoying. Killing level 35 enemies on a level 35 will take less time than killing V16 enemies on a V16 character with a normal build.

It's not too onerous, but it doesn't really feel like progression.

Now, once you get to V16, you can start working on converting your build into something amazing. But, at the same time, the Vet content skews harder than the pre-vet content. And that's not even a build issue. It's been like this since launch. Actually, at launch, Vet Content had a "real Dark Souls begins here" feel to it. Though, ZOS walked that one back later.

And the DLC zones reflect that. This is end game content, it is supposed to be more difficult... unfortunately, that translates into spongier enemies, which is probably the least interesting kind of difficulty.

Agree
also on:
Now, once you get to V16, you can start working on converting your build into something amazing. But, at the same time, the Vet content skews harder than the pre-vet content. And that's not even a build issue. It's been like this since launch. Actually, at launch, Vet Content had a "real Dark Souls begins here" feel to it. Though, ZOS walked that one back later.

ESO has tuned her difficulty down to have a general gameplay that is very accessable and also forgiving. If content is still too difficult you can always group up or just die and move on without real problems, except some repair costs.
Even big groups of adds, in fact too strong for you alone, can be killed, by doing it stepwise: engage, kill one or two of the weakest, die, rezz, kill the next one or two, rinse and repeat.
I think that is a good choice of ZOS for the majority of the players during the major part that you play.

During one of the evenings that ESO was down, where we had planned to do pledges, we started talking about doing no-reload runs on Baldur's Gate. My daughters were raised with Pokemon and the oldest played Baldur's Gate when she was seven, even learning some english from it. Doing a no-reload run means that every time you die, you start again at the beginning of the game. So dying is no option at all.
And why ?
To make a game with a reasonable difficulty level, challenging again, after you know that game so through and through that it has become too easy. And you still want to play the game while you love it so much.

After that I got a private "stream session" from my daughter on Dark Souls.
She likes difficulty all the way. Well.... Dark Souls offers that very much, including nice fighting mechanics of Monsters. Monsters that can always kill you in a few blows in a small moment of not taking care of the situation well enough.
It is unforgiving. Dying means losing all XP you gained (your gathered Dark Souls) unless you can collect back again your lost souls on the place you died. But you wake up again at the last bonfire/camp where you were somewhere in the area. And that can be very frustrating. Reminds me of the antediluvial RPG games like Bard's Tale, Ultima Underworld and the like. You could not save in between. You could only save when you were back in a guild house. If you were in a labyrinth like dungeon, you had no clue how long it would take to get out again. You had to draw your own maps of the dungeon on paper.
Life in ESO is very comfortable indeed.
Dark Souls is difficult and unforgiving. If you play it, you have to "get-good". If not die all the time or do another game.

I think that ZOS did a great thing with her battle levelling, opening up the new content since IC for all players, especially low level alts and new players. Please go on.
But at the same time we really need a difficulty slider. A difficulty slider that can still tweak down the difficulty a bit (not too much, because of grinding abuse).
But foremost a difficulty slider to make content more challenging again for people that know everything through and through and have endgame gear. Or just because there will always be players that like to play at extreme difficulty.

KingYogi415 · March 2016

You only scale well with good gear.

craft a hundings rage set every 5 level and you will be set!

Benie · March 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

You only scale well with good gear.

craft a hundings rage set every 5 level and you will be set!

I've been going with 1/4 Night Mother and 3/4 Hunding's Rage every 10 levels, as to basically not ask my crafting guild too much.
FYI: This is the build I've been using since I was a mere Level 26: Here (Replace the VR16-only gear with Night Mother, as a guildie told me)

At Everyone Else: So you're basically saying that even though it takes longer to kill a VR16 compared to a VR1, that it will only get harder as I eventually do get to VR16? Interesting.
Yet, why did my guild wonder why I was trying to do 'vet content' when I wasn't a vet?

Benie · March 2016

It's been over a day and no one's responded. Please, can someone answer my questions? I don't like bumping threads, but this one.. I really need a response to.

Volkodav · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Orsinium and Thieves Guild, both scaled to VR16. And for some magical reason, you too are scaled to VR16. Your stats are, anyway (for the most part). Yet your weapon damage... isn't scaled. Why?
However, this focuses on Orsinium as it's more combat-based than being sneaky and avoiding god-like guards.

Why am I not able to kill a VR16 there, in the same speed I'm able to kill ... say a Level 35 (as a Level 35)? Both mobs have the same armor. Both mobs have the same debuffs. Except the VR16 one is like a mini-boss, having a hell lot of more HP. Infact, they ALL are. And it takes me over 15 seconds to hack and slash until the mob dies.
I'm supposed to be scaled to VR16. Doesn't this mean I'm supposed to do really good damage as a VR16? Something tells me that the player's gear, isn't part of the scaling. And that gear is roughly the same level (mostly blue) as a Level 35 should.
What drove me away from doing this content, is seeing a boss mob with 144k health. Hitting me like a tank. I'm forced to run around and lose all of my Stamina. The same Stamina I use for my main attacks (as a Stamina build). And also, the same Stamina I use for my only way of healing myself (Rally). That day was not pretty.

I asked my guild once, "why does it take so long?" And they ask me: "why are you in vet content?" 'Vet Content'. They explain that vet content is after completing Cadwell's Silver and Gold (and hitting VR16). Not before. So this means, endgame content, yes? Content that should ONLY..be done as a VR16.
So... why have a scale? And I think (hell.. it's plainly obvious) I know the answer. To milk as much money out of their customers and not care about if their gear is good or not.

So I ask you, do you feel ZoS should had put a warning or some kind of block (or even redo the whole scaling system) to give new players more of a chance to enjoy the content? More of a chance that killing mobs was the same speed from start to finish as a mob their level?
As I see it currently, if you aren't geared well and/or haven't mastered your class, you're screwed if you wish to do this content. ZoS has opened the door to this content, yet offers no warning of what to expect. All they see is dollar signs in their eyes instead of if their players are happy with their game.

TL/DR: I don't hit as hard as I do on non-vet mobs, when I'm supposed to be 'scaled' to VR16. And I feel it should be changed.

Just a couple of hours ago I had my level 14 in Hew's Bane questing and we did fine.We only get scaled up to V15,not V16. He was level 9 when I took him there,and he leveled up to 14.

Benie · March 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

Just a couple of hours ago I had my level 14 in Hew's Bane questing and we did fine.We only get scaled up to V15,not V16. He was level 9 when I took him there,and he leveled up to 14.

You had absolutely no issues killing a V16 as a Level 9? No differences in the speed of killing one, compared to a regular Level 9 mob?

Then what the heck am I doing wrong?! I got the right gear...why is it so slow for me? When I was in Wrothgar (when my DK was Level 31), I saw VR16's having no issue at all killing mobs there. Which is what convinced me that this content should only be done as a VR16.
Yet you claim you had no problem.... as a Level 9. It's mind-boggling!

martinhpb16_ESO · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Just a couple of hours ago I had my level 14 in Hew's Bane questing and we did fine.We only get scaled up to V15,not V16. He was level 9 when I took him there,and he leveled up to 14.

You had absolutely no issues killing a V16 as a Level 9? No differences in the speed of killing one, compared to a regular Level 9 mob?

Then what the heck am I doing wrong?! I got the right gear...why is it so slow for me? When I was in Wrothgar (when my DK was Level 31), I saw VR16's having no issue at all killing mobs there. Which is what convinced me that this content should only be done as a VR16.
Yet you claim you had no problem.... as a Level 9. It's mind-boggling!

Just enjoy it while you can, at V16 its so easy that TG is boring for me.

Benie · March 2016

If I was "enjoying it while I can", I wouldn't had made this thread. I enjoy feeling powerful, not weak and pathetic.

zyk · March 2016

While helping a friend with a video, I brought a level 3 mule to Wrothgar for fun. This character had one tutorial weapon and one tutorial armor piece. He was useless. And he could solo in Wroth fine.

If you are struggling in Wrothgar with any level of character, you need to better learn how to play ESO.

How does one better learn how to play ESO? Learn how the systems work. Watch videos; read guides. Don't spam key-presses; execute abilities with intent. Ensure you are on target.

edit:

This video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ZK8333jrk - you can briefly see him fighting @ 1:40

. He was level 9 by the time we were finished with the same tutorial weapon.

swirve · March 2016

You might have a rainbow stat crap gear setup.

Scaling works better when you are running a decent set up i believe. I.e your crapness will be scaled and youll start to notice how bad your setup is.

Id suggest running sets every 5 or so levels, focusing on the right skills, distributing skill points...etc...

Get a mentor from your guild to do a healthcheck on your build.

Assuming you are a damage dealer how many hits / seconds does it take to put down a vr16 mammoth.

Volkodav · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Just a couple of hours ago I had my level 14 in Hew's Bane questing and we did fine.We only get scaled up to V15,not V16. He was level 9 when I took him there,and he leveled up to 14.

You had absolutely no issues killing a V16 as a Level 9? No differences in the speed of killing one, compared to a regular Level 9 mob?

Then what the heck am I doing wrong?! I got the right gear...why is it so slow for me? When I was in Wrothgar (when my DK was Level 31), I saw VR16's having no issue at all killing mobs there. Which is what convinced me that this content should only be done as a VR16.
Yet you claim you had no problem.... as a Level 9. It's mind-boggling!

Sorry,but it's true,pal.
I had no issues killing a V16. However,I am a pure stamina Nightblade.That might be a help.
You do know I am talking about being in both Wrothgar and Hew's Bane and having no problem.
And i dont run any special worked gear other than what I get from the quests in The Thieve's Guild. Before TG came out,I was in Wrothgar with gear I crafted.Nothing great,just my stuff.And I improved them and enchanted them for Stamina only.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Orsinium and Thieves Guild, both scaled to VR16. And for some magical reason, you too are scaled to VR16. Your stats are, anyway (for the most part). Yet your weapon damage... isn't scaled. Why?
However, this focuses on Orsinium as it's more combat-based than being sneaky and avoiding god-like guards.

Why am I not able to kill a VR16 there, in the same speed I'm able to kill ... say a Level 35 (as a Level 35)? Both mobs have the same armor. Both mobs have the same debuffs. Except the VR16 one is like a mini-boss, having a hell lot of more HP. Infact, they ALL are. And it takes me over 15 seconds to hack and slash until the mob dies.
I'm supposed to be scaled to VR16. Doesn't this mean I'm supposed to do really good damage as a VR16? Something tells me that the player's gear, isn't part of the scaling. And that gear is roughly the same level (mostly blue) as a Level 35 should.
What drove me away from doing this content, is seeing a boss mob with 144k health. Hitting me like a tank. I'm forced to run around and lose all of my Stamina. The same Stamina I use for my main attacks (as a Stamina build). And also, the same Stamina I use for my only way of healing myself (Rally). That day was not pretty.

I asked my guild once, "why does it take so long?" And they ask me: "why are you in vet content?" 'Vet Content'. They explain that vet content is after completing Cadwell's Silver and Gold (and hitting VR16). Not before. So this means, endgame content, yes? Content that should ONLY..be done as a VR16.
So... why have a scale? And I think (hell.. it's plainly obvious) I know the answer. To milk as much money out of their customers and not care about if their gear is good or not.

So I ask you, do you feel ZoS should had put a warning or some kind of block (or even redo the whole scaling system) to give new players more of a chance to enjoy the content? More of a chance that killing mobs was the same speed from start to finish as a mob their level?
As I see it currently, if you aren't geared well and/or haven't mastered your class, you're screwed if you wish to do this content. ZoS has opened the door to this content, yet offers no warning of what to expect. All they see is dollar signs in their eyes instead of if their players are happy with their game.

TL/DR: I don't hit as hard as I do on non-vet mobs, when I'm supposed to be 'scaled' to VR16. And I feel it should be changed.

I guess here is where i am confused. You make several statements here. One about boss mobs hitting like a truck. Ok they are boss mobs. They are supppose to. And another about the other mobs beimg slower to kill. Not even that it is to hard just slower. And then say if you want to do this content you are screwed?

So being a little slower doing the content means you cant do it at all?

Benie · March 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I guess here is where i am confused. You make several statements here. One about boss mobs hitting like a truck. Ok they are boss mobs. They are supppose to. And another about the other mobs beimg slower to kill. Not even that it is to hard just slower. And then say if you want to do this content you are screwed?

So being a little slower doing the content means you cant do it at all?

Ok, basically. Here's how it goes.
I went into Wrothgar as a Level 31. I noticed all the mobs were V16, and I feel like "wait WHAT?! What the heck am I doing in high-leveled content?! I thought this was for all levels!"
Asked my guild, and they say it's scaled content and I'm scaled to VR15. So I try to kill a few, and I notice they are indeed killable.... But they feel like they take a lot longer to kill than what I'm used to. They have much larger health pools, which is to be expected for a V16 mob. And it takes me 15 seconds to beat one up when it would take 5-10 seconds normally.

Overall, maybe I got the whole "scaled" thing wrong when I felt I would be stronger. Yet what I don't get from the responses in this thread after bumping it, how they had a Level 3 and a Level 9 and had no problem, yet I did. It's not like I'm doing nothing and letting them punch me to death. I'm doing my normal rotation (Rushing/Wrecking Blow/Executioner) as I've been doing on Level 31's, and it either gets a mob to 1/4 health left or kills them. But these V16 mobs, they don't go down as easy. And even delve bosses, which aren't that hard as a Level 31, hit like I'm trying to solo the final boss in a vet group dungeon. Trying to take down a 166k healthpool isn't that simple on your own.

And my guild, who were the first ones I talked to when I first ran the content, were asking me "why are you doing vet content?". Either they didn't want to tell me the truth that I don't deserve to play an MMO because I suck at them, or weren't informed of what was said here. Yet they also do Wrothgar (they're a crafting guild, afterall).

I do hope I explained this in a lot less cynical way. I want to be able to enjoy the content. I really do. I love this game. Maybe instead of saying "I got the right gear", to make sure it's the right quality. Maybe all blues won't work in Wrothgar, and I need all purples. I dunno, but I don't think this is a 'L2P' issue. Or maybe it is. I just don't know. I'm so confused right now.
Thought of doing a video as proof that there's either a problem with my gear or my playstyle, but I don't have the equipment to do so.

Teronell · March 2016

I'm guessing that you haven't fought veteran mobs before this. They are a little more difficult than regular mobs, but not as hard as they used to be (I miss the original difficulty).

Once you get there, you will notice the slight change in all vet content.

Benie · March 2016

Teronell wrote: »

I'm guessing that you haven't fought veteran mobs before this.

I've done Cadwell's Silver on my Sorc (up to VR3) before I started working on my DK again. And yes, they were a bit longer to kill than what I was used to. But those V16's take even longer to kill.
Hmmmm.... you might be on to something there.

Treonell wrote: »

Once you get there, you will notice the slight change in all vet content.

You mean once I get to VR16?

NewBlacksmurf · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Orsinium and Thieves Guild, both scaled to VR16. And for some magical reason, you too are scaled to VR16. Your stats are, anyway (for the most part). Yet your weapon damage... isn't scaled. Why?
However, this focuses on Orsinium as it's more combat-based than being sneaky and avoiding god-like guards.

Why am I not able to kill a VR16 there, in the same speed I'm able to kill ... say a Level 35 (as a Level 35)? Both mobs have the same armor. Both mobs have the same debuffs. Except the VR16 one is like a mini-boss, having a hell lot of more HP. Infact, they ALL are. And it takes me over 15 seconds to hack and slash until the mob dies.
I'm supposed to be scaled to VR16. Doesn't this mean I'm supposed to do really good damage as a VR16? Something tells me that the player's gear, isn't part of the scaling. And that gear is roughly the same level (mostly blue) as a Level 35 should.
What drove me away from doing this content, is seeing a boss mob with 144k health. Hitting me like a tank. I'm forced to run around and lose all of my Stamina. The same Stamina I use for my main attacks (as a Stamina build). And also, the same Stamina I use for my only way of healing myself (Rally). That day was not pretty.

I asked my guild once, "why does it take so long?" And they ask me: "why are you in vet content?" 'Vet Content'. They explain that vet content is after completing Cadwell's Silver and Gold (and hitting VR16). Not before. So this means, endgame content, yes? Content that should ONLY..be done as a VR16.
So... why have a scale? And I think (hell.. it's plainly obvious) I know the answer. To milk as much money out of their customers and not care about if their gear is good or not.

So I ask you, do you feel ZoS should had put a warning or some kind of block (or even redo the whole scaling system) to give new players more of a chance to enjoy the content? More of a chance that killing mobs was the same speed from start to finish as a mob their level?
As I see it currently, if you aren't geared well and/or haven't mastered your class, you're screwed if you wish to do this content. ZoS has opened the door to this content, yet offers no warning of what to expect. All they see is dollar signs in their eyes instead of if their players are happy with their game.

TL/DR: I don't hit as hard as I do on non-vet mobs, when I'm supposed to be 'scaled' to VR16. And I feel it should be changed.

Well, let's answer that cause it's not a ZOS problem but your problem due to a few factors that you can change right away.

-are you wearing set gear that's purple?
-enchants, rings, weapons, etc

The vet ranked NPCs are harder and have more life etc and do not work like levels 1-20 or 21-42 or 43-50 and then vr1-16.
If you play through the original content, you'll notice a tier change every so many levels. The only reason bet content is easy for vets is cause they have all the
-Passives
-levels weapons
-levels guild skills
-leveled race skills
-and possibly champion point Passives.

It's not the game but instead, you just need to level up. There isn't a change needed as you're being scaled but you're not suppose to be as effective, cause you're lacking.

That's the simple explanation without stats and specific numbers/builds

Volkodav · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I guess here is where i am confused. You make several statements here. One about boss mobs hitting like a truck. Ok they are boss mobs. They are supppose to. And another about the other mobs beimg slower to kill. Not even that it is to hard just slower. And then say if you want to do this content you are screwed?

So being a little slower doing the content means you cant do it at all?

Ok, basically. Here's how it goes.
I went into Wrothgar as a Level 31. I noticed all the mobs were V16, and I feel like "wait WHAT?! What the heck am I doing in high-leveled content?! I thought this was for all levels!"
Asked my guild, and they say it's scaled content and I'm scaled to VR15. So I try to kill a few, and I notice they are indeed killable.... But they feel like they take a lot longer to kill than what I'm used to. They have much larger health pools, which is to be expected for a V16 mob. And it takes me 15 seconds to beat one up when it would take 5-10 seconds normally.

Overall, maybe I got the whole "scaled" thing wrong when I felt I would be stronger. Yet what I don't get from the responses in this thread after bumping it, how they had a Level 3 and a Level 9 and had no problem, yet I did. It's not like I'm doing nothing and letting them punch me to death. I'm doing my normal rotation (Rushing/Wrecking Blow/Executioner) as I've been doing on Level 31's, and it either gets a mob to 1/4 health left or kills them. But these V16 mobs, they don't go down as easy. And even delve bosses, which aren't that hard as a Level 31, hit like I'm trying to solo the final boss in a vet group dungeon. Trying to take down a 166k healthpool isn't that simple on your own.

And my guild, who were the first ones I talked to when I first ran the content, were asking me "why are you doing vet content?". Either they didn't want to tell me the truth that I don't deserve to play an MMO because I suck at them, or weren't informed of what was said here. Yet they also do Wrothgar (they're a crafting guild, afterall).

I do hope I explained this in a lot less cynical way. I want to be able to enjoy the content. I really do. I love this game. Maybe instead of saying "I got the right gear", to make sure it's the right quality. Maybe all blues won't work in Wrothgar, and I need all purples. I dunno, but I don't think this is a 'L2P' issue. Or maybe it is. I just don't know. I'm so confused right now.
Thought of doing a video as proof that there's either a problem with my gear or my playstyle, but I don't have the equipment to do so.

You are used to the main bosses and mobs.Which are NOT V16 enemies.So they will take you down if you arent using good skills and a good weapon.In the DLCs they are stronger,and you have to maneuver around them at times,or find new ways to defeat them.Which is all part of the fun. I dont wear all purple,but I do wear all blue gear when I have the mats to improve them.I tend to have maybe one or two purples though too.

KingYogi415 · March 2016

If you gear is not within a couple levels of you scaling is awe full creating the problems you have.

Also stamina builds suck if you don't medium and heavy animation cancel.

I thought my Nightblade was horrible DPS wise so I made my Templar, irony.

Have your main be a crafter. pretty easy to get 6 traits. gather all the sky shards you can!