Should Outlaw Dens Host Regional Thieves Guild Jobs?

Korah_Eaglecry · March 2016

I feel like the one thing Im disappointed in about the Thieves Guild is that the Outlaw Dens seem to remain independent. While the Thieves Guild themselves inidcate they run or at least play the part of messenger service for the Outlaw Dens. Aside from the previously established Outlaw Symbol and the Thieves Guilds word. Nothing about the Outlaws Dens seem to indicate this is true. For all we know the Thieves Guild likes to think of themselves as being the main player but in actuality all of these Outlaws Dens are just a loosely affiliated group of thieves who have similar interests and needs so they "shake hands" when its necessary.

Something I feel would of better established the interactions and overarching theme for Thieves Guild would of been something a little more along the lines of Crafting Writs. The Hews Bane Daily Boards would send you anywhere and everywhere. Establishing themselves as the primary thieves organization. And setting up a TG Representative at every Outlaw Den with a Zone Board. This Zone Board would give the player Dailies as well that would send them out into the Zone the Den was located in to locate items/payment etc for the Thieves Guild. The story could go that the local thieves group that ran that particular Den had agreed to allow the TG to operate and organize out of their Den for a cut of whatever they made off of their activities. This would atleast set up the possibility that in the future the Thieves Guild could strong arm their way to prominence and power in these Dens and wipe out the individual groups that hosted them.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Please see my previous thread that talks about the topic:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/254456/i-rate-the-thieves-guild-dlc-very-highly-but-i-have-a-few-suggestions-for-improvement-and-growth#latest

I definitely would like to have quests at these Outlaw dens, but I think they could use this as a great opportunity by doing work between 'The Guild' and local Outlaw dens to create the continent wide guild as we know in the series in later eras. How cool would it be if our characters are the ones who actually help to build 'The Guild'

Enodoc · March 2016

This is a nice suggestion. For example, they could repeat the Tip Board in those Outlaws Refuges so you could collect and complete a pickpocketing quest in the same zone you're in, without having to go back to Abah's Landing for your reward.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · March 2016

It would have been good if by the end of the Thieve's Guild quest line it would have got you to go around all the Outlaw dens and get them to join up into one big Guild. Otherwise, as you say, they are just still independent. Even the Thieve's Guild den itself is just another independent outlaw den.

Enodoc · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I definitely would like to have quests at these Outlaw dens, but I think they could use this as a great opportunity by doing work between 'The Guild' and local Outlaw dens to create the continent wide guild as we know in the series in later eras. How cool would it be if our characters are the ones who actually help to build 'The Guild'

The Thieves Guild never becomes a continent-wide organisation. Every provincial Thieves Guild is entirely independent from each other one, just using the same name. For example, the Thieves Guild in Morrowind is entirely new in 3E 427, while the Thieves Guild in Cyrodiil was started by the first Gray Fox near the start of the Third Era. Finally, this Thieves Guild seems destined for extinction anyway - it is thought by many that the Abah's Landing Thieves Guild is the one mentioned in Thief of Virtue as being wiped out 'over 450 years ago', putting its end at some time around 2E 880.

snorlockb16_ESO · March 2016

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

It would have been good if by the end of the Thieve's Guild quest line it would have got you to go around all the Outlaw dens and get them to join up into one big Guild. Otherwise, as you say, they are just still independent. Even the Thieve's Guild den itself is just another independent outlaw den.

Yes. This. And at which point you can do dailies at each den.

Korah_Eaglecry · March 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I definitely would like to have quests at these Outlaw dens, but I think they could use this as a great opportunity by doing work between 'The Guild' and local Outlaw dens to create the continent wide guild as we know in the series in later eras. How cool would it be if our characters are the ones who actually help to build 'The Guild'

The Thieves Guild never becomes a continent-wide organisation. Every provincial Thieves Guild is entirely independent from each other one, just using the same name. For example, the Thieves Guild in Morrowind is entirely new in 3E 427, while the Thieves Guild in Cyrodiil was started by the first Gray Fox near the start of the Third Era. Finally, this Thieves Guild seems destined for extinction anyway - it is thought by many that the Abah's Landing Thieves Guild is the one mentioned in Thief of Virtue as being wiped out 'over 450 years ago', putting its end at some time around 2E 880.

You are right that each organization acts on its own accord. But ESO has explicitly countered that. Every Outlaws Den is marked with the Outlaw symbol. Including the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild. Hell the Thieves Guild Members all wear the Outlaw Motiff with the Outlaw symbol stitched across the chest. And the Thieves Guild members talk freely of sending messages to other Dens. Theres obviously cross over going on here. Especially if the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild can freely send its agents into other regions and provinces unchecked by the local players. Youd think those local Dens would prefer it if their own agents went about securing goods and getting a cut rather than let some one else come in, do the job, and the local Den risk not getting a cut.

Personally Id like to see more dailies involving the leveling zones. And a localized Daily Board with an explanation the locals are getting a cut of the profits would tie up that lose end as well as add more to the game, the world and the Thieves Guild.

anitajoneb17_ESO · March 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

You are right that each organization acts on its own accord. But ESO has explicitly countered that. Every Outlaws Den is marked with the Outlaw symbol. Including the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild. Hell the Thieves Guild Members all wear the Outlaw Motiff with the Outlaw symbol stitched across the chest. And the Thieves Guild members talk freely of sending messages to other Dens. Theres obviously cross over going on here. Especially if the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild can freely send its agents into other regions and provinces unchecked by the local players.

I don't think those arguments are valid.
All businessmen in the world wear suit+tie, that doesn't make them part of the same organisation, not even the same network.
Red light on the road means that cars have to stop, all over the world, but that doesn't mean that states / nations are interconnected when it comes to traffic regulation.
Police units from different countries might (or might not) cooperate when chasing criminals across borders, that doesn't make those institutions (nor their home countries) a federation or one big thing. At best, it's a network.

I don't believe thieves' guilds in Tamriel have ever been "networked". I think they just know of each other, maybe help each other as "neighbours", but that's it.

.

Korah_Eaglecry · March 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

You are right that each organization acts on its own accord. But ESO has explicitly countered that. Every Outlaws Den is marked with the Outlaw symbol. Including the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild. Hell the Thieves Guild Members all wear the Outlaw Motiff with the Outlaw symbol stitched across the chest. And the Thieves Guild members talk freely of sending messages to other Dens. Theres obviously cross over going on here. Especially if the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild can freely send its agents into other regions and provinces unchecked by the local players.

I don't think those arguments are valid.
All businessmen in the world wear suit+tie, that doesn't make them part of the same organisation, not even the same network.
Red light on the road means that cars have to stop, all over the world, but that doesn't mean that states / nations are interconnected when it comes to traffic regulation.
Police units from different countries might (or might not) cooperate when chasing criminals across borders, that doesn't make those institutions (nor their home countries) a federation or one big thing. At best, it's a network.

I don't believe thieves' guilds in Tamriel have ever been "networked". I think they just know of each other, maybe help each other as "neighbours", but that's it.

.

Point out an Outlaws Den outside of Abahs Landing where they wear the Outlaw Motiff as if its a organizational uniform. You cant. No one else wears the Outlaw symbol on their chests marking themselves as members.

Red Lights are universal because of globalization. If you go to these Outlaw Dens the only things tying them to each other would be the Outlaw symbol. In a world where it takes weeks, months to move from one area to another via ship or caravan. Its much harder for such things to catch on as a universal symbol unless someone was specifically spreading it around. Especially when you consider the cultural differences as you cross provincial borders.

Im not saying the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild SHOULD run and own these individual Dens. Only that the networking that they claim to have be more visible while adding more content to the game for players. Thats called world building and immersion.

Enodoc · March 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I definitely would like to have quests at these Outlaw dens, but I think they could use this as a great opportunity by doing work between 'The Guild' and local Outlaw dens to create the continent wide guild as we know in the series in later eras. How cool would it be if our characters are the ones who actually help to build 'The Guild'

The Thieves Guild never becomes a continent-wide organisation. Every provincial Thieves Guild is entirely independent from each other one, just using the same name. For example, the Thieves Guild in Morrowind is entirely new in 3E 427, while the Thieves Guild in Cyrodiil was started by the first Gray Fox near the start of the Third Era. Finally, this Thieves Guild seems destined for extinction anyway - it is thought by many that the Abah's Landing Thieves Guild is the one mentioned in Thief of Virtue as being wiped out 'over 450 years ago', putting its end at some time around 2E 880.

You are right that each organization acts on its own accord. But ESO has explicitly countered that. Every Outlaws Den is marked with the Outlaw symbol. Including the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild. Hell the Thieves Guild Members all wear the Outlaw Motiff with the Outlaw symbol stitched across the chest. And the Thieves Guild members talk freely of sending messages to other Dens. Theres obviously cross over going on here. Especially if the Abahs Landing Thieves Guild can freely send its agents into other regions and provinces unchecked by the local players. Youd think those local Dens would prefer it if their own agents went about securing goods and getting a cut rather than let some one else come in, do the job, and the local Den risk not getting a cut.

Yeah that's fair enough. It's certainly possible that this Thieves Guild has continent-spanning ambitions through the Outlaws Refuges. Each Refuge loading screen mentions who the local players are, and they're not TG members, but they do seem to have connections to the TG. This TG may end up building a continent-spanning network, and in doing so, it may have got so large and well-known that it became an easy target. Perhaps that's how it got wiped out circa 2E 880 (if that's the one the book is referencing), leaving the space open for the individual provincial Thieves Guilds of the Third Era.

anitajoneb17_ESO · March 2016

@Korah_Eaglecry : Yes, I have to admit, your argumentation makes sense.

I'm still not convinced that they were "networked" - but that's my interpretation / feeling.

And yes of course I'm talking from a lore point of view, because from a game design point of view, it's nice to have reasons to go back to all previous zones (I wish Wrothgar and the starting islands were included too).

Legoless · March 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Perhaps that's how it got wiped out circa 2E 880 (if that's the one the book is referencing), leaving the space open for the individual provincial Thieves Guilds of the Third Era.

I don't think anyone takes that line in Thief of Virtue seriously. Lots of Imperial Guards believe the guild is a myth too, but I wouldn't really cite them as a reliable source when we know for a fact that the guild promotes the belief that it doesn't exist.

Korah_Eaglecry · March 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Korah_Eaglecry : Yes, I have to admit, your argumentation makes sense.

I'm still not convinced that they were "networked" - but that's my interpretation / feeling.

And yes of course I'm talking from a lore point of view, because from a game design point of view, it's nice to have reasons to go back to all previous zones (I wish Wrothgar and the starting islands were included too).

Agreed it be nice for something to take us back to those areas regularly. The Daily Boards do this but they could be expanded upon. And I feel the DB DLC will do the same for us.

Enodoc · March 2016

Legoless wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Perhaps that's how it got wiped out circa 2E 880 (if that's the one the book is referencing), leaving the space open for the individual provincial Thieves Guilds of the Third Era.

I don't think anyone takes that line in Thief of Virtue seriously. Lots of Imperial Guards believe the guild is a myth too, but I wouldn't really cite them as a reliable source when we know for a fact that the guild promotes the belief that it doesn't exist.

Well maybe not, and I can't imagine the Oblivion devs would have thought much about the implications of something that happened in the distant past when they wrote it. But it's a good way to get rid of the current Thieves Guild, who definitely seem to have designs on making a Tamriel-wide organisation, which is not what we see in the Third Era. Wiping this Thieves Guild out before the end of the Second Era opens the way for the future provincial Thieves Guilds; without this one gone, it would have the monopoly on Thieves Guilding, and the independent Guilds of Iliac Bay, Morrowind, Cyrodiil and Skyrim would never have formed.