Lying Tanks

istateres · March 2016

Nestor wrote: »

I do fairly well as a Tank, but I have run groups with a really good tank and the difference is readily apparent. A good tank is like a Catcher on a baseball team. They keep the players focused on their jobs while doing their job.

It's not just about drawing Aggro.

I agree, but being the Tank IS about doing something different than DPS.

Humatiel · March 2016

This is the death rattle of MMO's. in the quest to make fast profits games have come a recycling bin of player bases. the easiest way to do this is to dumb down content to the point it requires only damage and some healing. all the individual needs to do is be good at soloing and apply it well in group content. the result was larger box sales and zero player retention.With the canceling of production of MMO's from all the AAA studios (sony ie daybreak),(blizzard).The Genre is dead completely and utterly. More games like destiny,division and small CO op pvp with casual PVE will now be the greedy corporate focus. We only have ourselves to blame as a player base. You guys complained and pissed and moaned about wanting class less skill based systems and this is what you got. Avoid red puddles, everyone gets a superhero cape , and here is your food stamp purples.You guys didnt want tradtional MMO you wanted a solo playable mmo with other people around to look at.This is what we got Group content that does not require you play as a group.

Well said, for what it's worth I would return the game to its initial difficulty of leave a town and expect to die until you figure out what is going wrong. Many of my posts certainely take on a more hard-line stance, to that end though I accept that their really isn't an mmo out there that can sustain that type of environment purely because of so many that don't.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

istateres wrote: »

Yesterday I ran a Random Dungeon as a DPS. The "tank" was shockingly bad. They never pulled the boss. They often (mostly) used a bow. And they died easily.

I ran this dungeon with a friend. They agreed with me about the "tank". After much thought, we believe this was a DPS, who claimed to be a tank to get into a Random Dungeon quickly.

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

Maybe they saw that the group finder thought they were a tank and figure that meant that they were a tank.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

After much thought, we believe this was a DPS

this was the case, that being said most pledges don't require a tank...but if he died a lot he clearly needed a tank himself. So many choices

This is the death rattle of MMO's. in the quest to make fast profits games have come a recycling bin of player bases. the easiest way to do this is to dumb down content to the point it requires only damage and some healing. all the individual needs to do is be good at soloing and apply it well in group content. the result was larger box sales and zero player retention.With the canceling of production of MMO's from all the AAA studios (sony ie daybreak),(blizzard).The Genre is dead completely and utterly. More games like destiny,division and small CO op pvp with casual PVE will now be the greedy corporate focus. We only have ourselves to blame as a player base. You guys complained and pissed and moaned about wanting class less skill based systems and this is what you got. Avoid red puddles, everyone gets a superhero cape , and here is your food stamp purples.You guys didnt want tradtional MMO you wanted a solo playable mmo with other people around to look at.This is what we got Group content that does not require you play as a group.

So instead of "greedy corporate focus" you want companies to spend millions on games that now many people want?

Thing is, there are single player group focused games where you need tanks at the hardest difficulty levels. "MMO" is not a particularly meaningful term now that so many games have online multiplayer components.

As far as why dungeons are DPS races -- I don't think that has anything to do with the actual dungeon design. It is more about PvP and all the changes PvP players asked for due to the impact of CP. When blocking and dodge roll get nerfed, but DPS gets multiplied through more buffs, it makes sense to just go all in on dps. Those nerfs where 100% due to PvP problems, not due to wanting to pander to a particular type of player with the group dungeon content.

I am not blaming PvP players in any way -- the complaint was reasonable. But the "fix" was to make mitigation less useful. Now the best way to mitigate is to kill before enemies can do their more powerful attacks.

anitajoneb17_ESO · March 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

When you have a tank who's not using sword & board on at least one bar, talk to him about it in group chat. It's possible (but unlikely) that he's tanking using the Undaunted taunt. If he's not, explain to him what the tank's role is and why he needs a taunt to do it. If he's not willing and able to switch, then if you're the group leader kick him. If someone else besides the tank is the group leader, ask him to kick the "tank" and look for a new one. If he won't, or the "tank" is the leader, tell everyone in the group that you're going to leave group and look for a group with a real tank, and that you encourage the others to do the same.

That is the complete, ideal, perfect procedure.

However that requires...
- people not too much in a hurry
- people understanding english (or whatever language is used)
- people actually using group chatbox
- people listening

Likelihood is high that before the entire procedure is complete, people will have either left, or started insulting each other. Or both.

Forestd16b14_ESO · March 2016

This is the sad truth about tanks. Any one think they can do it and either they are right or what most do now is just DPS through everything. But sounds like you ran into a guy who thought it be easy to "tank" or thought that you all could just DPS through it. Either way this is the sad truth that tanks need buffed up and for ZOS to stop nerfing PvE content just cause some DPS cry babies whine just cause they can't be a immortal deity.

Reykice · March 2016

ZOS wants people to play, as many as they can so they will never implement anything to punish and upset the griefers, the people leaving groups, lying about roles, exploiting and etc.

They simply don't care about that...it would take money to implement and get them nothing even cause players to leave or quit. At launch they had the duping exploit and i know at least 2 people using it who did not get banned.

So we must live with it that unless an exploit is so bad people post youtube vids and starts hurting the game they will never do anything about it.

Sadly this means that the people who do not exploit or grief will suffer. But apparently that is the ZOS way of doing it.

Reykice · March 2016

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

But for that you need a competent developer and game designer plus the desire to help the game. So far ZOS only shows the desire to make money. Now stop complaining and buy a costume.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I think I had the same guy lol. Woodelf DK with Bow and Board.

To be fair to this guy, the Wood Elf Dk's out there really got a major debuff when they nerfed stamina regeneration while blocking. It sounds to me like this fellow's playstyle didn't change despite what he was built for and capable of in the past. That's just my guess.

Valrien · March 2016

Reykice wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

But for that you need a competent developer and game designer plus the desire to help the game. So far ZOS only shows the desire to make money. Now stop complaining and buy a costume.

Not all tanks are 5 heavy. Many use 5 Medium or even 5 Light, and it works...quite well actually.

Vaelen · March 2016

Reykice wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

But for that you need a competent developer and game designer plus the desire to help the game. So far ZOS only shows the desire to make money. Now stop complaining and buy a costume.

Exactly my thoughts... Why can Rift's devs do it and not ZOS?

Masstershake · March 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

But cool that you can do 26k damage one time from stealth, bruh.

Pshhhh i can get 35k outa stealth...

Anywho..on topic..

My issue has been quing as a tank and getting healers that insist that people shouldnt need heals and its better for the group if they dps and if we die its my fault...or healers saying they qued as a healer for a faster pop and assumed someone else would just heal.

My response to both senarios. I say good luck with that. Leave re q and get a new group instantly. If the dps seem competent i offer to let them que with me.

Valrien · March 2016

Vaelen wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

But for that you need a competent developer and game designer plus the desire to help the game. So far ZOS only shows the desire to make money. Now stop complaining and buy a costume.

Exactly my thoughts... Why can Rift's devs do it and not ZOS?

Read the post above you.

wayfarerx · March 2016

Reykice wrote: »

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

I hope they never do this. While it would be nice to weed out the people that lie about their role, it would negatively impact people who experiment with different strategies in different roles. What if I want to run a shield-stacking, dodging magicka sorc tank? Not saying it would work in any particular situation but I'd hate it if the group finder just blacklisted me for it.

Heck I once PUGged as a healer and ended up with @HeroOfNone as tank and the dude ran all of vet Spindle stark naked. He did a good job though and we had no issues getting a gold key. I'd hate it if the grouping tool prevented fun runs like that from happening.

UrQuan · March 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I think I had the same guy lol. Woodelf DK with Bow and Board.

Bow and Board sounds like it could lead to an interesting build... not, you know, what they were doing... but still.

It's not something I would use with the characters I currently tank with, but I'm considering doing a tanking setup for my stamina NB that would be sword & board on one bar and bow on the other - the bow bar gets the Undaunted ranged taunt.

My theory is I'd start off most boss fights with a Mark Target, followed by a Snipe, then as I'm closing and getting to the position where I want to tank the boss use Inner Fire to ensure I've got aggro, and fire off a Poison Arrow for the DoT, before swapping to Sword & Shield for the remainder of the fight.

And of course, for those fights where you want to stay at range anyway, the bow bar would work nicely.

Now whether this would actually be effective, I can't say as I haven't tried it yet. It's just theory for now.

LadyNalcarya · March 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

You can run a "tank" build with a bow if they are an avoidance tank. They slot inner rage on the bar, use bow + dodge roll to kite certain bosses around the room while the rest pile on. It's a useful tactic on certain bosses, but not many.

I admittedly had a terrible time tanking last night vet FG. The chain down effect took a second or two to show up, the spider daedra's laser effect would blow up and not show, and a whole bunch of other annoyances.

Not to say your tank deserves forgiveness, he probably wasn't doing his job if you kept getting hit, but just giving some insight.

Its better to run with 3 dds in this case.
There only 2 advantages of having a tank now: keeping mobs in place for better dps and buffing/debuffing. "Avoidance tank" does neither.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

This is the death rattle of MMO's. in the quest to make fast profits games have come a recycling bin of player bases. the easiest way to do this is to dumb down content to the point it requires only damage and some healing. all the individual needs to do is be good at soloing and apply it well in group content. the result was larger box sales and zero player retention.With the canceling of production of MMO's from all the AAA studios (sony ie daybreak),(blizzard).The Genre is dead completely and utterly. More games like destiny,division and small CO op pvp with casual PVE will now be the greedy corporate focus. We only have ourselves to blame as a player base. You guys complained and pissed and moaned about wanting class less skill based systems and this is what you got. Avoid red puddles, everyone gets a superhero cape , and here is your food stamp purples.You guys didnt want tradtional MMO you wanted a solo playable mmo with other people around to look at.This is what we got Group content that does not require you play as a group.

Well said, for what it's worth I would return the game to its initial difficulty of leave a town and expect to die until you figure out what is going wrong. Many of my posts certainely take on a more hard-line stance, to that end though I accept that their really isn't an mmo out there that can sustain that type of environment purely because of so many that don't.

I enjoyed the higher difficulty at launch, except for the bashing nerf that led to me dying like crazy with my puny DPS.

But since this is an Elder Scrolls game, it is wise to make it accessible to all types. Combat in Skyrim was a bit of a joke and it also had a difficulty setting on top of that. The difficulty settings in Skyrim were also pretty silly and made the game really boring such that an enemy still couldn't kill you, but it took forever to kill them with your reduced damage. I remember a few devoted ESO players quitting soon after launch because combat was too hard for them. One had someone craft full sturdy armor for them to reduce repair costs, a self defeating approach because you are now not only unskilled, but you decided to forego the additional stats of 7 useful traits. Even in an active and encouraging guild, they ended up discouraged. I would imagine that this would be an even bigger problem for people who don't join guilds. In short, the difficulty level hurt player retention in these cases.

I agree with your critique of people wanting every class to do everything. Classes should have niches. In ESO, people have gone so far as to want each class to be able to do everything with stamina as a primary resource or with magicka as a primary resource.

TitanJeff · March 2016

I don't group up much to run dungeons because, honestly, I know little about what I should be doing. A few kind souls have seen I was a Stamblade and coached me a bit which is the only way I've learned the little I know.

If a guidebook is available somewhere, I've not run across it.

anitajoneb17_ESO · March 2016

Valrien wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

But for that you need a competent developer and game designer plus the desire to help the game. So far ZOS only shows the desire to make money. Now stop complaining and buy a costume.

Not all tanks are 5 heavy. Many use 5 Medium or even 5 Light, and it works...quite well actually.

True.

And to add to that, you can queue up in your dps/solo gear and wait until you're actually grouped and teleported into the dungeon to swap to your tanking gear.
In other words, automated "checks" would NOT work.

.

UrQuan · March 2016

Valrien wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

But for that you need a competent developer and game designer plus the desire to help the game. So far ZOS only shows the desire to make money. Now stop complaining and buy a costume.

Not all tanks are 5 heavy. Many use 5 Medium or even 5 Light, and it works...quite well actually.

I would clarify this: it can work very well if you've put a lot of thought into your build and set things up in such a way to either hit resistance caps anyway, or minimize the need to have high resistance.

For the vast majority of players out there, tanking in medium or light armour isn't going to work out well. For players who have really thought it through carefully it can work very well.

Personally I tank in 5 heavy, but that's because my 2 characters I currently tank on are both magicka tanks, and they're not sorcerers (one Dragonknight and one Templar) so they don't have powerful enough damage shields for me to consider tanking in light. When I eventually start tanking on a stamina Nightblade I'm planning on doing a medium armour tank setup. When I eventually start tanking on a magicka Sorcerer I'm planning on doing a light armour tank setup.

UrQuan · March 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

I'd like a function that would effectively block you from grouping with a blocked person.

Some of the content can be ran without a tank but if you can run a dungeon without a tank you can run it without a healer just as fast.

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

But for that you need a competent developer and game designer plus the desire to help the game. So far ZOS only shows the desire to make money. Now stop complaining and buy a costume.

Not all tanks are 5 heavy. Many use 5 Medium or even 5 Light, and it works...quite well actually.

True.

And to add to that, you can queue up in your dps/solo gear and wait until you're actually grouped and teleported into the dungeon to swap to your tanking gear.
In other words, automated "checks" would NOT work.

.

Oh, that's true... I've got 3 gear sets for my characters that I tank with (1 for DPS, 1 for healing, and 1 for tanking), and I'm often not wearing my tanking set at the time I'm queuing.

Durham · March 2016

Tank? What's that?

Thelon · March 2016

TitanJeff wrote: »

If a guidebook is available somewhere, I've not run across it.

@TitanJeff

http://tamrielfoundry.com/forums/

Wifeaggro13 · March 2016

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

After much thought, we believe this was a DPS

this was the case, that being said most pledges don't require a tank...but if he died a lot he clearly needed a tank himself. So many choices

This is the death rattle of MMO's. in the quest to make fast profits games have come a recycling bin of player bases. the easiest way to do this is to dumb down content to the point it requires only damage and some healing. all the individual needs to do is be good at soloing and apply it well in group content. the result was larger box sales and zero player retention.With the canceling of production of MMO's from all the AAA studios (sony ie daybreak),(blizzard).The Genre is dead completely and utterly. More games like destiny,division and small CO op pvp with casual PVE will now be the greedy corporate focus. We only have ourselves to blame as a player base. You guys complained and pissed and moaned about wanting class less skill based systems and this is what you got. Avoid red puddles, everyone gets a superhero cape , and here is your food stamp purples.You guys didnt want tradtional MMO you wanted a solo playable mmo with other people around to look at.This is what we got Group content that does not require you play as a group.

So instead of "greedy corporate focus" you want companies to spend millions on games that now many people want?

Thing is, there are single player group focused games where you need tanks at the hardest difficulty levels. "MMO" is not a particularly meaningful term now that so many games have online multiplayer components.

As far as why dungeons are DPS races -- I don't think that has anything to do with the actual dungeon design. It is more about PvP and all the changes PvP players asked for due to the impact of CP. When blocking and dodge roll get nerfed, but DPS gets multiplied through more buffs, it makes sense to just go all in on dps. Those nerfs where 100% due to PvP problems, not due to wanting to pander to a particular type of player with the group dungeon content.

I am not blaming PvP players in any way -- the complaint was reasonable. But the "fix" was to make mitigation less useful. Now the best way to mitigate is to kill before enemies can do their more powerful attacks.

No what I am saying is make a game that sustains subscription. Not churn them and pander for box sales, cash shop asthetics. The main problem with Eso is there is very little group dynamic in its group content. Everything is centered around dps. CC has no use in PVE, tanking is dps with a taunt. People have been complaining about the imbalances in armor passive since launch. What I am saying is don't continue down a path that is not successful is all.

Mysteri0n · March 2016

Real talk time this game needs more tanks , if you a dps and tired of waiting hours for a group roll a tank you can get in a group in less than 10 seconds, to all the dps in this thread complaining about tanking, role one yourself so they will be better tanks out there. All tho if you get lucky and find a good tank the general consensus is if the healer dies,it's the tanks fault if the tank dies it's the healers fault, if the dps dies it's their own fault, due to standing in stupid and rushing ahead of the tank. #TankLife

HeroOfNone · March 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

You can run a "tank" build with a bow if they are an avoidance tank. They slot inner rage on the bar, use bow + dodge roll to kite certain bosses around the room while the rest pile on. It's a useful tactic on certain bosses, but not many.

I admittedly had a terrible time tanking last night vet FG. The chain down effect took a second or two to show up, the spider daedra's laser effect would blow up and not show, and a whole bunch of other annoyances.

Not to say your tank deserves forgiveness, he probably wasn't doing his job if you kept getting hit, but just giving some insight.

Its better to run with 3 dds in this case.
There only 2 advantages of having a tank now: keeping mobs in place for better dps and buffing/debuffing. "Avoidance tank" does neither.

In some cases, but some hit hard. I wouldn't call these great DPS to count as a DPS. A good example is the abomination in Vet ICP, you can have more survivability having someone fun him in a circle with high stamina regen to keep running & dodge rolling than taking the hits, but you still don't hit great. Ash titan in Vet COA is another example, incase your group has a tendency to die in fire a lot. But most if these are exceptions to the rule, and depends on the group make up.

wayfarerx wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

It would not take much time for the game to verify you have heavy armor at least 5 pieces and proper tanking skills to let you queue as a tank. Same for other roles.

I hope they never do this. While it would be nice to weed out the people that lie about their role, it would negatively impact people who experiment with different strategies in different roles. What if I want to run a shield-stacking, dodging magicka sorc tank? Not saying it would work in any particular situation but I'd hate it if the group finder just blacklisted me for it.

Heck I once PUGged as a healer and ended up with @HeroOfNone as tank and the dude ran all of vet Spindle stark naked. He did a good job though and we had no issues getting a gold key. I'd hate it if the grouping tool prevented fun runs like that from happening.

I do that most times to see what folks will say, but right now most will assume it's a bug with the 64 bit client =(.

Soleya · March 2016

istateres wrote: »

Yesterday I ran a Random Dungeon as a DPS. The "tank" was shockingly bad. They never pulled the boss. They often (mostly) used a bow. And they died easily.

I ran this dungeon with a friend. They agreed with me about the "tank". After much thought, we believe this was a DPS, who claimed to be a tank to get into a Random Dungeon quickly.

Thoughts? Anything we can do to prevent this in the future?

Almost wondered if you were in my group the other night.

I went in as healer, and the tank switched from tank to dps in his group setting, but it still showed him as a tank on the left side of the UI. Then he kept asking who the tank was. He used 2H and kited stuff around. I wasn't sure if he was joking about the tank thing or what. Seemed obvious he used it to get into the group quicker.

We ended up completing it, but mostly cause I mixed healing and dps so we'd get through bosses quicker.

Wifeaggro13 · March 2016

Mysteri0n wrote: »

Real talk time this game needs more tanks , if you a dps and tired of waiting hours for a group roll a tank you can get in a group in less than 10 seconds, to all the dps in this thread complaining about tanking, role one yourself so they will be better tanks out there. All tho if you get lucky and find a good tank the general consensus is if the healer dies,it's the tanks fault if the tank dies it's the healers fault, if the dps dies it's their own fault, due to standing in stupid and rushing ahead of the tank. #TankLife

The underlying issue is you don't need a tank just high dps

LadyNalcarya · March 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

You can run a "tank" build with a bow if they are an avoidance tank. They slot inner rage on the bar, use bow + dodge roll to kite certain bosses around the room while the rest pile on. It's a useful tactic on certain bosses, but not many.

I admittedly had a terrible time tanking last night vet FG. The chain down effect took a second or two to show up, the spider daedra's laser effect would blow up and not show, and a whole bunch of other annoyances.

Not to say your tank deserves forgiveness, he probably wasn't doing his job if you kept getting hit, but just giving some insight.

Its better to run with 3 dds in this case.
There only 2 advantages of having a tank now: keeping mobs in place for better dps and buffing/debuffing. "Avoidance tank" does neither.

In some cases, but some hit hard. I wouldn't call these great DPS to count as a DPS. A good example is the abomination in Vet ICP, you can have more survivability having someone fun him in a circle with high stamina regen to keep running & dodge rolling than taking the hits, but you still don't hit great. Ash titan in Vet COA is another example, incase your group has a tendency to die in fire a lot. But most if these are exceptions to the rule, and depends on the group make up.

Well, I can tank those 2 just fine on my normal tank build, without any bows or spear shards.
And no matter how good the group is, stationary fight dps will be higher than with kiting. Also ranged taunt does not debuff enemy armor.

Silver_Strider · March 2016

Love the tanks that go "What's a taunt?"
Depending on the Dungeon, I will either leave the group or just go tanky DPS it with Inner Fire, if I'm not in the mood sit in queue for another 30+ minutes.
Best moment though was in Elden Hollow when I tank/healed it with my Magblade.