Confused about claims that "zerg" and stacked groups hurt PvP

Durham · March 2016

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.

I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?

Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?

I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.

ZOS has said many times that ball zergs cause the lag that create unplayable conditions in this game... If you run this style of combat I do not blame you and your right ZOS promoted this game as large scale pvp.... However the game mechanics cause to much stress on the servers causing latency.... Personally I hate ball zergs I would like it if people spread out more but the mechanice still do not support that play honestly ...

ToRelax · March 2016

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

Right now the mentality on the forums is any raid is a zerg aka bad for the game. They cant think outside the box to realize guilds like to run together, friends like to group, and factions like to go for objectives like emperor, scrolls, dethrones etc that require large numbers of people and sometimes yes large numbers in one place. The game was advertised this way and can be played any way people want, spamming the forums all day with 1vX or your playing wrong isnt going to change anything. Guilds will continue to form raids until the end of the game, be it from the next best thing coming out or ZoS killing pvp with more poorly tested and implemented changes

You don't have to stack up in one spot to cooperate as a group. Yet that seems to be the mentality of so many on these forums...

Zheg · March 2016

Durham wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.

I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?

Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?

I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.

ZOS has said many times that ball zergs cause the lag that create unplayable conditions in this game... If you run this style of combat I do not blame you and your right ZOS promoted this game as large scale pvp.... However the game mechanics cause to much stress on the servers causing latency.... Personally I hate ball zergs I would like it if people spread out more but the mechanice still do not support that play honestly ...

ZOS also said toppling charge was fixed at least 7 times over the past 2.5 years. If they actually knew what was causing the lag and creating unplayable conditions and it was something so simple as players within a set radius, competent coders would have been able to address it 2+ years later. While only anecdotal, the game performance has always been almost identical for me whether there are 2 balls fighting or 25 players are fighting 25 players spread in a keep courtyard.

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2016

The lag isn't caused by zergs

its caused by the Devs inability to write software to scale that can handle what it advertises.

Etaniel · March 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The lag isn't caused by zergs

its caused by the Devs inability to write software to scale that can handle what it advertises.

Do you not realise how utterly ret arded that sounds?

Company A sells me a slingshot and an automatic rifle to hunt deer.
First day : I chose to use the automatic rifle because it is more effective than the slingshot, but there's a technical failure and it also shoots me in the face when I pull the trigger.

It's the company's fault, they sold me a faulty product.

Day 2 : The automatic rifle shoots me in the face again, what a shocker. It's my fault for being a total idiot because I knew what was gonna happen if I shot that rifle. The company is still responsible for fixing that rifle or giving me a new one, but my sore face will tell me it's as much my fault for being a complete moron and deliberately shooting myself in the face.

You see where I'm going with this?

Zheg wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.

I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?

Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?

I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.

ZOS has said many times that ball zergs cause the lag that create unplayable conditions in this game... If you run this style of combat I do not blame you and your right ZOS promoted this game as large scale pvp.... However the game mechanics cause to much stress on the servers causing latency.... Personally I hate ball zergs I would like it if people spread out more but the mechanice still do not support that play honestly ...

ZOS also said toppling charge was fixed at least 7 times over the past 2.5 years. If they actually knew what was causing the lag and creating unplayable conditions and it was something so simple as players within a set radius, competent coders would have been able to address it 2+ years later. While only anecdotal, the game performance has always been almost identical for me whether there are 2 balls fighting or 25 players are fighting 25 players spread in a keep courtyard.

I'm pretty sure the devs can tell where the server stress is coming from, that doesn't mean that they can easily find a solution to it. I mean the obvious solution would be to remove all passives and skills that have aoe components, but that would completely alter our game, and no one wants that.

I do believe though that if the devs had it in them to fix it, it would already have been done. I'm just not sure if it's because they are incompetent, or that it's just way over anyone's head with today's technology. I just wish that if it was the latter, they would tell us so and bring more gameplay changes to encourage people to spread out (not just destacking, but spreading out on the map)

Sugaroverdose · March 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The lag isn't caused by zergs

its caused by the Devs inability to write software to scale that can handle what it advertises.

In fact it's both-side responsibility: devs when allowed to stack people in such huge numbers that software cannot calculate it in near-realtime, players when exploit this vulnerability to get unintended advantage.

blabafat · March 2016

Exactly what @Talcyndl stated

The zergplay is promoted by the "Meta"

Zergs = Lag

Master_Kas · March 2016

Still see 999+ ping and 5 fps when these zergs appear and fight eachother.

This is with no ballgroups around.

Still laggy as ***

Talcyndl · March 2016

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

if lag was resolved, than there would need to be a different justification for designing against that strategy.

Except that ZOS has made it clear that they are wholly unable to fix the lag on fully populated servers with Blobs running. So saying "if lag was resolved" is pointless - it won't be resolved unless Blobs are broken.

But, even if it was (by some miracle), there is a great reason to design against the stacking zerg strategy. Namely, such gameplay is boring and removes any element of skill from battles. It becomes a contest of numbers.

Talcyndl · March 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Blaming the lag on zergs is misguided.
You should blame the developers for creating the lag, not the players.

We can blame both.

The developers for designing skills and other systems which have encouraged gameplay (stacking and spamming AoEs) that the system can't handle.

The Blobbers for continuing that gameplay and deciding to stack multiple groups in the same location, despite the blatantly obvious lag it causes.

Talcyndl · March 2016

Lucky28 wrote: »

There is a difference between Zergs and Ball groups. I can fight AD on Alessia Bridge, 25+ EP 40+ AD and the ping remains stable and relatively low with little lag. however, i fight one DC ball group and am hit with 500+ ping and abilities no longer work.

at any rate. Ball groups are boring. they are boring to play in and even more boring to fight. people play in ball groups because it's effective and nothing more.

THIS.

Azuras is currently overrun with a huge AD zerg during primetime. But the general absence of blobbing ball groups (probably combined with overall lower server population) means there is almost no lag. Single target skills work. And, other than the 'normal' bugginess of charges, I can use Crit Charge effectively.

kuro-dono · March 2016

Army of casuals cause 10% of the lagg the pros/elites blobbers/ballerinas do

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The lag isn't caused by zergs

its caused by the Devs inability to write software to scale that can handle what it advertises.

In fact it's both-side responsibility: devs when allowed to stack people in such huge numbers that software cannot calculate it in near-realtime, players when exploit this vulnerability to get unintended advantage.

That isn't an exploit of the vulnerability if they aren't stacking with the goal to cause lag. They are usually stacking so their buffs, purges, and heals hit all members.

phillyboy7897 · March 2016

And it's a bunch of cheese and they will be exterminated. If it isn't vicious death it'll be something else but ball groups must die.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

Etaniel wrote: »

I do believe though that if the devs had it in them to fix it, it would already have been done. I'm just not sure if it's because they are incompetent, or that it's just way over anyone's head with today's technology. I just wish that if it was the latter, they would tell us so and bring more gameplay changes to encourage people to spread out (not just destacking, but spreading out on the map)

Some computing problems are intractable. There comes a point where the additional processing can increase exponentially. Sometimes you have to overhaul your approach to a problem.

The problem with overhauling Cyrodiil's engine is that it could cease to be Cyrodiil.

Robbmrp · March 2016

Here's the biggest problems with large groups....

1- There are groups out there that specifically try to lag the server. What they do, is they ball up in a corner in a keep and spam AOE spells for 30 seconds and then train rush out at the enemy. Casting things over and over sends tons of data to the server. These groups EXPLOIT LAG so that it plays in their favor.

2- There are other groups that group, buff up and then rush the enemy which are different and nothing wrong with them. these are single cast skills that don't tax the server.

It's not every zerg that creates a problem for the players, only specific kinds.

The last problem is that @ZOS can't deliver on the large group battles that they advertised the game with. Why is it that other games can have hundred of people on screen at the same time with no lag issues at all, what is different about their game code when compared to ESO's? Maybe it isn't even the game code, maybe it's the server hardware that's bottle necking. Maybe it's their Data Exchange that's causing the problem. There was game lag in PVP long before Champion points and will be until @ZOS can figure out and fix the problem.

They are working on it so I'll give them that. They need to make it a main focus NOW though because it's spilling been over into PVE more and more with each DLC released.

Durham · March 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

Still see 999+ ping and 5 fps when these zergs appear and fight eachother.

This is with no ballgroups around.

Still laggy as ***

Just because you don't see them does not mean they are somewhere else on the server... plus the server latency could take literally minutes to correct itself...sometimes in another spot it prolongs it... ZOS has stated the issue. ..but has yet found a solution...

kuro-dono · March 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

Here's the biggest problems with large groups....

1- There are groups out there that specifically try to lag the server. What they do, is they ball up in a corner in a keep and spam AOE spells for 30 seconds and then train rush out at the enemy. Casting things over and over sends tons of data to the server. These groups EXPLOIT LAG so that it plays in their favor.

2- There are other groups that group, buff up and then rush the enemy which are different and nothing wrong with them. these are single cast skills that don't tax the server.

It's not every zerg that creates a problem for the players, only specific kinds.

The last problem is that @ZOS can't deliver on the large group battles that they advertised the game with. Why is it that other games can have hundred of people on screen at the same time with no lag issues at all, what is different about their game code when compared to ESO's? Maybe it isn't even the game code, maybe it's the server hardware that's bottle necking. Maybe it's their Data Exchange that's causing the problem. There was game lag in PVP long before Champion points and will be until @ZOS can figure out and fix the problem.

They are working on it so I'll give them that. They need to make it a main focus NOW though because it's spilling been over into PVE more and more with each DLC released.

Azura star pc eu propably closest to show you HUGE long fight without major lagg due to lack of people spamming aoes every single second without penalty for it since there is no cp and ppl need to either focus burst dps or sustain, they cant have both. Tho pvp definetly needs more penalty for aoe spamming since you can have loads of folks using skills without affecting anything but still it drains the server and makes it less enjoyable.

AhPook_Is_Here · March 2016

I wonder if this thread will have a violent death.

tonemd · March 2016

Etaniel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The lag isn't caused by zergs

its caused by the Devs inability to write software to scale that can handle what it advertises.

Do you not realise how utterly ret arded that sounds?

Company A sells me a slingshot and an automatic rifle to hunt deer.
First day : I chose to use the automatic rifle because it is more effective than the slingshot, but there's a technical failure and it also shoots me in the face when I pull the trigger.

It's the company's fault, they sold me a faulty product.

Day 2 : The automatic rifle shoots me in the face again, what a shocker. It's my fault for being a total idiot because I knew what was gonna happen if I shot that rifle. The company is still responsible for fixing that rifle or giving me a new one, but my sore face will tell me it's as much my fault for being a complete moron and deliberately shooting myself in the face.

You see where I'm going with this?

Zheg wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.

I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?

Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?

I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.

ZOS has said many times that ball zergs cause the lag that create unplayable conditions in this game... If you run this style of combat I do not blame you and your right ZOS promoted this game as large scale pvp.... However the game mechanics cause to much stress on the servers causing latency.... Personally I hate ball zergs I would like it if people spread out more but the mechanice still do not support that play honestly ...

ZOS also said toppling charge was fixed at least 7 times over the past 2.5 years. If they actually knew what was causing the lag and creating unplayable conditions and it was something so simple as players within a set radius, competent coders would have been able to address it 2+ years later. While only anecdotal, the game performance has always been almost identical for me whether there are 2 balls fighting or 25 players are fighting 25 players spread in a keep courtyard.

I'm pretty sure the devs can tell where the server stress is coming from, that doesn't mean that they can easily find a solution to it. I mean the obvious solution would be to remove all passives and skills that have aoe components, but that would completely alter our game, and no one wants that.

I do believe though that if the devs had it in them to fix it, it would already have been done. I'm just not sure if it's because they are incompetent, or that it's just way over anyone's head with today's technology. I just wish that if it was the latter, they would tell us so and bring more gameplay changes to encourage people to spread out (not just destacking, but spreading out on the map)

I don't know, man, I kinda want to see what that looks like. First thing I thought about when I got into this thread.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

tonemd wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The lag isn't caused by zergs

its caused by the Devs inability to write software to scale that can handle what it advertises.

Do you not realise how utterly ret arded that sounds?

Company A sells me a slingshot and an automatic rifle to hunt deer.
First day : I chose to use the automatic rifle because it is more effective than the slingshot, but there's a technical failure and it also shoots me in the face when I pull the trigger.

It's the company's fault, they sold me a faulty product.

Day 2 : The automatic rifle shoots me in the face again, what a shocker. It's my fault for being a total idiot because I knew what was gonna happen if I shot that rifle. The company is still responsible for fixing that rifle or giving me a new one, but my sore face will tell me it's as much my fault for being a complete moron and deliberately shooting myself in the face.

You see where I'm going with this?

Zheg wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.

I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?

Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?

I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.

ZOS has said many times that ball zergs cause the lag that create unplayable conditions in this game... If you run this style of combat I do not blame you and your right ZOS promoted this game as large scale pvp.... However the game mechanics cause to much stress on the servers causing latency.... Personally I hate ball zergs I would like it if people spread out more but the mechanice still do not support that play honestly ...

ZOS also said toppling charge was fixed at least 7 times over the past 2.5 years. If they actually knew what was causing the lag and creating unplayable conditions and it was something so simple as players within a set radius, competent coders would have been able to address it 2+ years later. While only anecdotal, the game performance has always been almost identical for me whether there are 2 balls fighting or 25 players are fighting 25 players spread in a keep courtyard.

I'm pretty sure the devs can tell where the server stress is coming from, that doesn't mean that they can easily find a solution to it. I mean the obvious solution would be to remove all passives and skills that have aoe components, but that would completely alter our game, and no one wants that.

I do believe though that if the devs had it in them to fix it, it would already have been done. I'm just not sure if it's because they are incompetent, or that it's just way over anyone's head with today's technology. I just wish that if it was the latter, they would tell us so and bring more gameplay changes to encourage people to spread out (not just destacking, but spreading out on the map)

I don't know, man, I kinda want to see what that looks like. First thing I thought about when I got into this thread.

Having separate PvP and PvE skills and builds would be a major change. At that point, might as well just have separate PvP avatars that you can pick from with canned skill sets.

How many class skills would remain if AoE skills had to be replaced? Would you also remove 2 and 3 target skills, or just skills with an AoE radius?

Removing all AoE could mean even more stacking too. Sure, lag might be gone, but if everything is single target, stacking with a few healers would still be the way to go. I suppose siege would still be AoE and that would have to be relied upon.

Fruitdog · March 2016

Etaniel wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the devs can tell where the server stress is coming from, that doesn't mean that they can easily find a solution to it. I mean the obvious solution would be to remove all passives and skills that have aoe components, but that would completely alter our game, and no one wants that.

I do believe though that if the devs had it in them to fix it, it would already have been done. I'm just not sure if it's because they are incompetent, or that it's just way over anyone's head with today's technology. I just wish that if it was the latter, they would tell us so and bring more gameplay changes to encourage people to spread out (not just destacking, but spreading out on the map)

No, the obvious solution is to remove AOE caps and yet they don't do it. I think that speaks more to their lack of competency than their coding ability.

kuro-dono · March 2016

lol. removing aoe caps + vicious death + deto+ sap essense+ whatever else nb got aoe. game name shall be renamed nightblade. All those favoring aoe cap off are people who do stealth bombing and think its pvp and fun for everyone else when they got no chance. you dont even bother try to attack keeps when there is folks sneak afking waiting for folks to come siege. no point even playing keep capturing.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

kuro-dono wrote: »

lol. removing aoe caps + vicious death + deto+ sap essense+ whatever else nb got aoe. game name shall be renamed nightblade. All those favoring aoe cap off are people who do stealth bombing and think its pvp and fun for everyone else when they got no chance. you dont even bother try to attack keeps when there is folks sneak afking waiting for folks to come siege. no point even playing keep capturing.

When I hear people talk about how ball groups are not fun combat, I always think of how un-fun nightblades make Cyrodiil. They go for knockout punch and then hide. Over and over again. I don't fault them for having cloak and using it. But that is not fun combat. Lots of fun to play because it is so active. Not fun for DK stam tanks who can survive the burst, but are stuck in a purely reactive gameplay style.

With a NB, you get to test opponents to see if you can take them, and then flee if you can't. If during that time you get hit with a WB and end up dying, you complain in the forums. With a DK, you better be able to take someone you attack because once the fight starts, you will have to see it through.

Wollust · March 2016

kuro-dono wrote: »

lol. removing aoe caps + vicious death + deto+ sap essense+ whatever else nb got aoe. game name shall be renamed nightblade. All those favoring aoe cap off are people who do stealth bombing and think its pvp and fun for everyone else when they got no chance. you dont even bother try to attack keeps when there is folks sneak afking waiting for folks to come siege. no point even playing keep capturing.

Explain to me why AoE caps are reasonable please. Why does a group get additional damage mitigation, sometimes more than you can get form any armor you are wearing, just because they have numbers and they are stacked up as close as possibe? I guess I am too stupid and can't see the bigger picture.

SirAndy · March 2016

Talcyndl wrote: »

The developers for designing skills and other systems which have encouraged gameplay (stacking and spamming AoEs) that the system can't handle ANYMORE.

Fixed it for you!

Because there was a time when that was *not* a problem at all. I remember 3 faction battles with at least 200 players all in one spot and back then you could still see other players effects and (gasp) we still had deer in Cyrodiil!
And solid 30fps through all of it ...

Which is why i stand by my statement, the lag problem is 100% on ZOS and 0% on players.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

The developers for designing skills and other systems which have encouraged gameplay (stacking and spamming AoEs) that the system can't handle ANYMORE.

Fixed it for you!

Because there was a time when that was *not* a problem at all. I remember 3 faction battles with at least 200 players all in one spot and back then you could still see other players effects and (gasp) we still had deer in Cyrodiil!
And solid 30fps through all of it ...

Which is why i stand by my statement, the lag problem is 100% on ZOS and 0% on players.

Do you think part of the problem is easier resource management? I was in Cyrodiil yesterday with drop armor on a v10 Templar and only 230 CP and I was able to cast heals non-stop. I couldn't do that back in the day. Casting is so cheap now.

tonemd · March 2016

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The lag isn't caused by zergs

its caused by the Devs inability to write software to scale that can handle what it advertises.

Do you not realise how utterly ret arded that sounds?

Company A sells me a slingshot and an automatic rifle to hunt deer.
First day : I chose to use the automatic rifle because it is more effective than the slingshot, but there's a technical failure and it also shoots me in the face when I pull the trigger.

It's the company's fault, they sold me a faulty product.

Day 2 : The automatic rifle shoots me in the face again, what a shocker. It's my fault for being a total idiot because I knew what was gonna happen if I shot that rifle. The company is still responsible for fixing that rifle or giving me a new one, but my sore face will tell me it's as much my fault for being a complete moron and deliberately shooting myself in the face.

You see where I'm going with this?

Zheg wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.

I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?

Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?

I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.

ZOS has said many times that ball zergs cause the lag that create unplayable conditions in this game... If you run this style of combat I do not blame you and your right ZOS promoted this game as large scale pvp.... However the game mechanics cause to much stress on the servers causing latency.... Personally I hate ball zergs I would like it if people spread out more but the mechanice still do not support that play honestly ...

ZOS also said toppling charge was fixed at least 7 times over the past 2.5 years. If they actually knew what was causing the lag and creating unplayable conditions and it was something so simple as players within a set radius, competent coders would have been able to address it 2+ years later. While only anecdotal, the game performance has always been almost identical for me whether there are 2 balls fighting or 25 players are fighting 25 players spread in a keep courtyard.

I'm pretty sure the devs can tell where the server stress is coming from, that doesn't mean that they can easily find a solution to it. I mean the obvious solution would be to remove all passives and skills that have aoe components, but that would completely alter our game, and no one wants that.

I do believe though that if the devs had it in them to fix it, it would already have been done. I'm just not sure if it's because they are incompetent, or that it's just way over anyone's head with today's technology. I just wish that if it was the latter, they would tell us so and bring more gameplay changes to encourage people to spread out (not just destacking, but spreading out on the map)

I don't know, man, I kinda want to see what that looks like. First thing I thought about when I got into this thread.

Having separate PvP and PvE skills and builds would be a major change. At that point, might as well just have separate PvP avatars that you can pick from with canned skill sets.

How many class skills would remain if AoE skills had to be replaced? Would you also remove 2 and 3 target skills, or just skills with an AoE radius?

Removing all AoE could mean even more stacking too. Sure, lag might be gone, but if everything is single target, stacking with a few healers would still be the way to go. I suppose siege would still be AoE and that would have to be relied upon.

I've argued for something similar before. Have a separate character template for PVP. You can draw from a set group of skills and passive that have been unlocked while playing the game (in PVE and PVP) but it would be a subset of all available skills in the game and ZOS-approved for PVP.

PVP-centric skills and passives would be under the Alliance War Category. PVP character growth would be confined to unlocking the skills and passives in THAT category and in the CP tree (maybe). That way balance can be better controlled and adjusted by ZOS. Skills could be adjusted without affecting PVE. Less crying from the carebears, more ability to adjust PVP to actually work well.

That IS a different game. But if PVP is to be confined to Cyrodiil, I don't understand why it can't or shouldn't exist.

DaveMoeDee · March 2016

Wollust wrote: »

kuro-dono wrote: »

lol. removing aoe caps + vicious death + deto+ sap essense+ whatever else nb got aoe. game name shall be renamed nightblade. All those favoring aoe cap off are people who do stealth bombing and think its pvp and fun for everyone else when they got no chance. you dont even bother try to attack keeps when there is folks sneak afking waiting for folks to come siege. no point even playing keep capturing.

Explain to me why AoE caps are reasonable please. Why does a group get additional damage mitigation, sometimes more than you can get form any armor you are wearing, just because they have numbers and they are stacked up as close as possibe? I guess I am too stupid and can't see the bigger picture.

Because any damage done requires energy. Other bodies absorb the energy unleashed in the attack. Granted, ESO has magic and physics ceases to matter when you have magic, but it does make sense that total damage would not scale linearly as you add more bodies in the AoE of an attack. So that caps are reasonable.

No caps are also reasonable if that is how they want to design the game for practical reasons.

Master_Kas · March 2016

Durham wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Still see 999+ ping and 5 fps when these zergs appear and fight eachother.

This is with no ballgroups around.

Still laggy as ***

Just because you don't see them does not mean they are somewhere else on the server... plus the server latency could take literally minutes to correct itself...sometimes in another spot it prolongs it... ZOS has stated the issue. ..but has yet found a solution...

I play alot on the "main" campaign which is Trueflame atm in EU.

There are some raids up, but none of what I've seen are proper ballgroups atm. Most big ballraids seem to have stopped playing or turned into medium groups.

I just see alot of megazergs (who run spreaded not stacked except when entering chokepoints or breaches ofc) , and then the regular medium/smallgroups.

ZOS servers just can't handle to many players in the same spot casting skills. There's no denying it, and people who think the lag issue will disappear with ballgroups are mistaken. :P