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Confused about claims that "zerg" and stacked groups hurt PvP
DaveMoeDee
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I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.
I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?
Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?
I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.
I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?
Some people invoke "skill" as a justification for changed they want, but why should individual "skill" trump any other consideration in large scale battles or in PvP in general if the majority aren't concerned with that?
I can't reconcile the idea that zerg are bad for PvP if they are the majority of players in PvP. I also don't buy that if a minority of PvPers are dissatisfied with a game mode that isn't even the primary focus of ESO's design, the game will be in trouble. I accept that lag is bad. I agree that, all things being equal, making everyone happy is better than making most people happy. But I remember people one month after launch giving up on PvP due to it becoming mostly zerg. I remember complaints that first month about factions turning the map all one color, killing the action in the entire campaign. If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.
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Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Two quick points:
(1) Saying "apart from lag..." misses THE point. The stacked blobs are the main source of lag. That lag in turn makes any play style other than stacking and spamming AoEs impossible. Single target skills simply don't work (or at least very well) in the lag generated when groups of 20+ start spamming AoEs.
(2) The fact that some significant percentage of people choose to stack in blobs (and it's not a majority in my opinion) doesn't mean they prefer that play style. It simply means they recognize that the game ZOS has created rewards that play style - with both AP and with victory in most fights.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/27 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Big groups (aka Zergs) = lag + hard to kill with those stupid AoE caps.
AoE caps make it too difficult for small groups to have a chance. Meaning.... small groups evolve into a larger groups.
This causes heavy lag and more randoms on each faction join the battle overtime too. Since the fight is now large group vs. large group in one spot, the entire map becomes horridly unplayable no matter what you are doing.
Believe me, no one would care at all about zergs and would be totally fine to accept them if there was no lag+no skill-less AoE caps.
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Two quick points:
(1) Saying "apart from lag..." misses THE point. The stacked blobs are the main source of lag. That lag in turn makes any play style other than stacking and spamming AoEs impossible. Single target skills simply don't work (or at least very well) in the lag generated when groups of 20+ start spamming AoEs.
(2) The fact that some significant percentage of people choose to stack in blobs (and it's not a majority in my opinion) doesn't mean they prefer that play style. It simply means they recognize that the game ZOS has created rewards that play style - with both AP and with victory in most fights.
Exactly this^
OP, you're assumption that the majority of ppl zerg because they want to, is false. We are forced into a Zerg (or ball group) because of poor design decisions by ZoS that made it, by far, the most effective way to play. Said Zerging then breaks the game because the servers can't handle it.Edited by kadar on March 15, 2016 10:27PM3 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Doncellius wrote: »Big groups (aka Zergs) = lag + hard to kill with those stupid AoE caps.
AoE caps make it too difficult for small groups to have a chance. Meaning.... small groups evolve into a larger groups.
This causes heavy lag and more randoms on each faction join the battle overtime too. Since the fight is now large group vs. large group in one spot, the entire map becomes horridly unplayable no matter what you are doing.
Believe me, no one would care at all about zergs and would be totally fine to accept them if there was no lag+no skill-less AoE caps.
Aren't large groups what make it hard to survive as a small group?
AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Two quick points:
(1) Saying "apart from lag..." misses THE point. The stacked blobs are the main source of lag. That lag in turn makes any play style other than stacking and spamming AoEs impossible. Single target skills simply don't work (or at least very well) in the lag generated when groups of 20+ start spamming AoEs.
Conceptually, I do have a problem with AoE caps in that a real attacking army would likely spread out more to not all get taken out at once. But the lag is a technical problem, and if lag was resolved, than there would need to be a different justification for designing against that strategy.The_Outsider wrote: »Two quick points:
(2) The fact that some significant percentage of people choose to stack in blobs (and it's not a majority in my opinion) doesn't mean they prefer that play style. It simply means they recognize that the game ZOS has created rewards that play style - with both AP and with victory in most fights.
Exactly this^
OP, you're assumption that the majority of ppl zerg because they want to, is false. We are forced into a Zerg (or ball group) because of poor design decisions by ZoS that made it, by far, the most effective way to play. Said Zerging then breaks the game because the servers can't handle it.
If you stack because game design forces you to and you think a majority are in the same boat, than that is a great response to my post. It would be interesting to hear if more people who stack actually don't like stacking. I haven't heard that in the guild groups I stacked with.
I remember at launch that we would all enter the postern door at the same time and run up the stairs together, around the top, and back down to the flags. It wasn't called 'stacking', but we stayed close together. We weren't told what skills to spam, but we more or less stacked.
As far as zerg goes, I don't think your comment applies since zerg waves started taking over maps pretty soon after launch and I don't remember performance being like it is now. Perhaps we need to stop calling ball groups zerg because they are the opposite of zerg. They are organized and strategic, maximizing the effectiveness of their attacks. They have optimized their play style.
Zerg will always happen because it is a social game and it is large scale combat.3 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've been here long enough to remember when large groups did NOT lag out the game.
In fact, the game was specifically advertised to have large scale PvP with hundreds of players in the same spot. And for a while, it did.
Blaming the lag on zergs is misguided.
You should blame the developers for creating the lag, not the players.
Edited by SirAndy on March 16, 2016 12:47AM8 -
Jhunn✭✭✭✭✭
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No.DaveMoeDee wrote: »AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.Gave up.6 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
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No.DaveMoeDee wrote: »AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.
Then play Mortal Combat.4 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »
No.DaveMoeDee wrote: »AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.
Then play Mortal Combat.
Numbers matter enough already. More numbers are more damage and healing done. No need for artificial damage mitigation just because.
Susano'o
Zerg Squad11 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »
No.DaveMoeDee wrote: »AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.
Then play Mortal Combat.
Numbers matter enough already. More numbers are more damage and healing done. No need for artificial damage mitigation just because.
I don't disagree with that.
But we also should not design the game to give advantages to 1 person against 8 by having powerful skills where damage increases as targets increase.4 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a difference between Zergs and Ball groups. I can fight AD on Alessia Bridge, 25+ EP 40+ AD and the ping remains stable and relatively low with little lag. however, i fight one DC ball group and am hit with 500+ ping and abilities no longer work.
at any rate. Ball groups are boring. they are boring to play in and even more boring to fight. people play in ball groups because it's effective and nothing more.Edited by Lucky28 on March 16, 2016 5:57AMInvictus5 -
phillyboy7897✭✭✭✭Zerg v Zerg when it's not lagging is some of the more fun fights I have man.. the problem is that, that is one out of 20 zerg fights.
Almost every single one is horrible lag. Like 3 fps.
It doesn't seem to be getting fixed despite claims that it is the #1 priority. They have designed item sets and abilities to split up zergs and that is a clear sign the coding fix won't happen at least anytime soon.
Zergs cause lag, sometimes server-wide lag.. thats peoples issue with them. At least for me it is. Other than that I'd love to dive into a zerg and brawl w/ y'all.
Ball group is worst, I agree, and not even a fun fight... hopefully gone on PC after this patch?
I'm putting some thought into ball groups, slam them with aoe burst while you have major expedition and then get out of there before they AoE blast you and repeat this over and over, and do not let them get revives ever... probably PC ball groups way better than console ones tho, since I almost never see them on console.Edited by phillyboy7897 on March 16, 2016 6:08AMV16 Magicka Templar only
Check out my Bs on youtube for 1vX same as forum name same as gamertag: Phillyboy78970 -
phillyboy7897✭✭✭✭The thing is what are we going to do when we know this causes massive lag? I will harass and gank from zergs when I can but sometimes the lag is so bad I don't even want to play in itEdited by phillyboy7897 on March 16, 2016 6:10AMV16 Magicka Templar only
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah, the only times I have found PvP fun in recent months were big zergy battles. Other times it was chore I did to unlock skills.phillyboy7897 wrote: »Zerg v Zerg when it's not lagging is some of the more fun fights I have man.. the problem is that, that is one out of 20 zerg fights.
Almost every single one is horrible lag. Like 3 fps.
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phillyboy7897✭✭✭✭It is what the game is designed to do and it is very fun . But they broke it and haven't fixed in 1 year+.
The attitude in forums is very negative and jaded but I think people have a valid argument when they say there is not any real intention to fix despite claims to the contrary.
I for one hold out hope . Perhaps bc I am a somewhat newer player and also bc I am solo and just go wherever server or area I want when it lags outV16 Magicka Templar only
Check out my Bs on youtube for 1vX same as forum name same as gamertag: Phillyboy78970 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play
For no reason other than that their game can't handle it.
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phillyboy7897✭✭✭✭Agreed regardless of the unknown of wether it will actually be fixes. Right now zerg and ball groups break PvP due to lag. Vicious death could be removed if they ever fix lag etcV16 Magicka Templar only
Check out my Bs on youtube for 1vX same as forum name same as gamertag: Phillyboy78970 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Numbers are matter in natural way, but if you have zerg of potato, it should be killable.DaveMoeDee wrote: »Doncellius wrote: »Big groups (aka Zergs) = lag + hard to kill with those stupid AoE caps.
AoE caps make it too difficult for small groups to have a chance. Meaning.... small groups evolve into a larger groups.
This causes heavy lag and more randoms on each faction join the battle overtime too. Since the fight is now large group vs. large group in one spot, the entire map becomes horridly unplayable no matter what you are doing.
Believe me, no one would care at all about zergs and would be totally fine to accept them if there was no lag+no skill-less AoE caps.
Aren't large groups what make it hard to survive as a small group?
AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »... If two years later it is still a zerg-fest, maybe that is what players like and that is what the game design is. Personally, I can't fault a faction for taking over an entire map, zerg or no zerg. That seems like the right thing to do in war.
Generally speaking, players seem to enjoy killing and dislike dying.
Bunching up together into a small area to mitigate damage due to AoE caps facilitates that.
As a result, players like bunching up together.
Do not think that players would enjoy themselves less, or be less able to play as an organized group, if mechanics were not in place that reward them for packing tightly together.
If another mechanic were considered the best option (for example, spreading out to avoid AoE radius rather than bunching up to pack people within the radius), then suspect players would favour that as their "most well liked" method of play instead.
Am biased though. Even growing up, follow the leader was not an interesting game to me."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭phillyboy7897 wrote: »It is what the game is designed to do and it is very fun . But they broke it and haven't fixed in 1 year+.
The attitude in forums is very negative and jaded but I think people have a valid argument when they say there is not any real intention to fix despite claims to the contrary.
I for one hold out hope . Perhaps bc I am a somewhat newer player and also bc I am solo and just go wherever server or area I want when it lags out
While I find most calls for transparency by gamers to be shallow whining, deluded (as they are often really complaining about not hearing the answer they want to hear), and self-contradictory (when they complain that not all plans divulged came to fruition), I cannot fault PvP-focused players for feeling led-on with the lag issue. But the lag is a technical issue that has been around way too long and it isn't clear that there is any set plan to resolve the problem.
On the other hand, it may be more of a technical failure that they want to fix, but can't figure out. If this is true, than I don't think transparency is a problem since this is essentially what they have been communicating. They try various things and nothing works.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Numbers are matter in natural way, but if you have zerg of potato, it should be killable.DaveMoeDee wrote: »Doncellius wrote: »Big groups (aka Zergs) = lag + hard to kill with those stupid AoE caps.
AoE caps make it too difficult for small groups to have a chance. Meaning.... small groups evolve into a larger groups.
This causes heavy lag and more randoms on each faction join the battle overtime too. Since the fight is now large group vs. large group in one spot, the entire map becomes horridly unplayable no matter what you are doing.
Believe me, no one would care at all about zergs and would be totally fine to accept them if there was no lag+no skill-less AoE caps.
Aren't large groups what make it hard to survive as a small group?
AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.
Don't assume that a large group is clueless and you won't be so bothered when they kill you.2 -
phillyboy7897✭✭✭✭Yup we just don't get to know. So how to go about Zerg and ball busting baby ! This is a fun challenge and I am mostly useless for pc players.
For zergs on console live just wtfbomb one of them then lead them on a wild goose chase through mountains and kill whoever keeps up. Or die. Lol mixed results.V16 Magicka Templar only
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Erynyes✭✭✭why in the first place you get damage mitigation when you cuddle with 6+ other peep, why is it my 3-4 man group gotta deal with an aeo cap and another damage mitigation when we already are outnumbered... get real OP, more peep would try small scale if it wasn'T so easy to just cuddle in a 24 man groupEdited by Erynyes on March 16, 2016 7:06AMPC NA
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AbraXuSeXile✭✭✭✭✭
✭I see plenty of people are gonna be left with egg on their face when its still lagging even though no zerg trains are up because the entire factions are fighting endlessly between keep and outoost in a mass zerg of spread players who cant progress through breeches because if all the limitations to ball groups in place.
Even though i hate zerg trains sometimes they are a necessary evil to progress the map and purge a zerg.AbraXuS
Grand Overlord Rank 50 [First EU]
Clan Leader of eXile
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Crashing an EP Wedding | DK Emp | 1vX | Between Enemy Lines | Hate Video | 5 v Many6 -
phillyboy7897✭✭✭✭So ball groups are dying out on PC? that is awesome news.
I'm ok with being wrong about anything, and who knows what will actually fix lag, but I think we know ball group is the worst for lag... I think that seems pretty obvious, yea?
I am actually asking not being sarcastic... never played PC all I know is what I have heard. My experience w/ ball is few and lag indeed was involved w/ some of those.V16 Magicka Templar only
Check out my Bs on youtube for 1vX same as forum name same as gamertag: Phillyboy78970 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@DaveMoeDee A larger group has the added benefit of more healing, damage, utility, pressure, and people who can simply die and not cause your group to become too weak to serve its purpose. A smaller group vs. a larger group already faces many obvious and deserved disadvantages for being smaller. This is okay, as it should theoretically leave room for plenty of player skill and tactics to stand a chance.
Issues are created when stacking lots of players in the same location+spamming skills = entire server LAGS+you gain the massive buff called "AoE Caps". AoE caps grants near immunity to those who perform in this manner. Without AoE caps, ball groups wouldn't attempt to stack on each other and spam insta-kill AoE. They would spread out (less lag) because some well timed burst could kill them all.
AoE caps are there to encourage players to run in as large a group as possible. Not only this, but to stack on crown causing lag. There is very good reason to do it, and none not to. #ZOS_Logic4 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
I'm not assuming, i know that.DaveMoeDee wrote: »Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Numbers are matter in natural way, but if you have zerg of potato, it should be killable.DaveMoeDee wrote: »Doncellius wrote: »Big groups (aka Zergs) = lag + hard to kill with those stupid AoE caps.
AoE caps make it too difficult for small groups to have a chance. Meaning.... small groups evolve into a larger groups.
This causes heavy lag and more randoms on each faction join the battle overtime too. Since the fight is now large group vs. large group in one spot, the entire map becomes horridly unplayable no matter what you are doing.
Believe me, no one would care at all about zergs and would be totally fine to accept them if there was no lag+no skill-less AoE caps.
Aren't large groups what make it hard to survive as a small group?
AoE caps surely make it harder, but numbers should matter.
Don't assume that a large group is clueless and you won't be so bothered when they kill you.
Time to time i meet groups who does not attack one guy just because they look for fun and competition, and not for 10AP.
As well as i am stop attacking competitor when randoms starts their spambush and other crap just because they want to steal AP.0 -
fastolfv_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Right now the mentality on the forums is any raid is a zerg aka bad for the game. They cant think outside the box to realize guilds like to run together, friends like to group, and factions like to go for objectives like emperor, scrolls, dethrones etc that require large numbers of people and sometimes yes large numbers in one place. The game was advertised this way and can be played any way people want, spamming the forums all day with 1vX or your playing wrong isnt going to change anything. Guilds will continue to form raids until the end of the game, be it from the next best thing coming out or ZoS killing pvp with more poorly tested and implemented changes6 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AbraXuSeXile wrote: »I see plenty of people are gonna be left with egg on their face when its still lagging even though no zerg trains are up because the entire factions are fighting endlessly between keep and outoost in a mass zerg of spread players who cant progress through breeches because if all the limitations to ball groups in place.
Even though i hate zerg trains sometimes they are a necessary evil to progress the map and purge a zerg.
QFT. Instead, players mostly blow up if they try to push a choke, and the opposing zerg can't be dealt with because of forward camps. Most fights involve far more numbers in this patch compared to the previous one. I'm interested to see how long it takes for the usual suspects to admit that.Edited by Zheg on March 16, 2016 11:18AM2 -
Etaniel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AbraXuSeXile wrote: »I see plenty of people are gonna be left with egg on their face when its still lagging even though no zerg trains are up because the entire factions are fighting endlessly between keep and outoost in a mass zerg of spread players who cant progress through breeches because if all the limitations to ball groups in place.
Even though i hate zerg trains sometimes they are a necessary evil to progress the map and purge a zerg.
QFT. Instead, players mostly blow up if they try to push a choke, and the opposing zerg can't be dealt with because of forward camps. Most fights involve far more numbers in this patch compared the previous one. I'm interested to see how long it takes for the usual suspects to admit that.
Camps being brought back is a bit silly, It feels like call of duty again, die, respawn try again, and fight the same guys over and over and over.5