PvP Gear for Magika Sorcerer

The_Great_Maldini · March 2016

Anyone have any suggestions for craftable or acquirable gear which is BiS for a magika sorcerer in PvP? It used to be Kagrenac 5 piece plus either Magnus, Eye of Mara or Arch-Mage. Is this still the case? Has anyone tried TBS? I currently wear Julianos and monster helms/shoulder for PvE.

Lexxypwns · March 2016

5 pc julianos
2 pc monster set (engine guardian, kena, or 2 1 pc monster sets)
5 Vicious Death/Fasalla

that's currently BiS but you won't be able to get the VD/Fasalla without a hell of a grind or a TON of gold.

you could run 3 willpower 2 torugs instead

Lexxypwns · March 2016

5 pc julianos
2 pc monster set (engine guardian, kena, or 2 1 pc monster sets)
5 Vicious Death/Fasalla

that's currently BiS but you won't be able to get the VD/Fasalla without a hell of a grind or a TON of gold.

you could run 3 willpower 2 torugs instead

Edit: for sorc I prefer the old school infused on big pieces divines on small for pvp, since more magika > any mundus bonus imo, considering people run impen/damage shields to mitigate crit

Bfish22090 · March 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

5 pc julianos
2 pc monster set (engine guardian, kena, or 2 1 pc monster sets)
5 Vicious Death/Fasalla

that's currently BiS but you won't be able to get the VD/Fasalla without a hell of a grind or a TON of gold.

you could run 3 willpower 2 torugs instead

how do you have any regen with that setup?

catalyst10e · March 2016

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

5 pc julianos
2 pc monster set (engine guardian, kena, or 2 1 pc monster sets)
5 Vicious Death/Fasalla

that's currently BiS but you won't be able to get the VD/Fasalla without a hell of a grind or a TON of gold.

you could run 3 willpower 2 torugs instead

how do you have any regen with that setup?

You don't. I am currently running the 5 juli, 2 tourg's 3 willpower, and at best I have 950 magicka regen. I use a destro staff with a magicka absorb enchantment, so that when I weave my medium/light attacks with force pulse, It makes up a bit of the difference in regen loss tho. So it's still great for smaller scale PVP, but wont carry you through a long battle.

The 5 Kagrenac, 3 arch mage is still viable , and I've been hearing some good things with running 5 twice born star. Vicious Death will be a good one to get from PVP tho.

Lexxypwns · March 2016

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

5 pc julianos
2 pc monster set (engine guardian, kena, or 2 1 pc monster sets)
5 Vicious Death/Fasalla

that's currently BiS but you won't be able to get the VD/Fasalla without a hell of a grind or a TON of gold.

you could run 3 willpower 2 torugs instead

how do you have any regen with that setup?

you only need like 1500 base regen + pots for pvp sorc at the absolute most

run atro stone

Bfish22090 · March 2016

i play with 2k regen and i feel that is often low, but i dont run with more than 2-3 ppl at a time

Lexxypwns · March 2016

Bfish22090 wrote: »

i play with 2k regen and i feel that is often low, but i dont run with more than 2-3 ppl at a time

I exclusively solo or duo

1. I assume you're not using tri-pots
2. not being able to sustain with 2k regen is definitely a l2p issue, potions or not
3. you sacrifice far too much on a sorc to run such high regen, even with altmer and CP cap, if you had more burst you'd find yourself in shorter fights overall and not needing the 2k regen

My guess is you're not careful enough with your use of streak, likely you often are caught out of position and have to mash on streak repeatedly to get yourself back into an acceptable position. As long as you're skilled with your positioning, you won't need quite so much streak and as a result won't need quite so much regen. I can't stress to you enough how crucial positioning is in all aspects of eso pvp.

Perhaps, also, you're not selecting the right shield to cast at the right time. I know a lot is made of "shield stacking" sorcs, however, 90% of the time you only need to cast 1 shield, either hardened ward or harness magika, not both. I use healing ward very sparingly and only when its cast a healing ward or die, since its by far the most expensive shield in our tool-kit, and even then I only cast it once then protect it with the correct shield, harness against magika users or hardened against stam.

Probably you're also over-using mines?

If you tell me your build I can help you improve it and your rotations such that you won't need to stack such an absurdly high amount of regen

catalyst10e wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

5 pc julianos
2 pc monster set (engine guardian, kena, or 2 1 pc monster sets)
5 Vicious Death/Fasalla

that's currently BiS but you won't be able to get the VD/Fasalla without a hell of a grind or a TON of gold.

you could run 3 willpower 2 torugs instead

how do you have any regen with that setup?

You don't. I am currently running the 5 juli, 2 tourg's 3 willpower, and at best I have 950 magicka regen. I use a destro staff with a magicka absorb enchantment, so that when I weave my medium/light attacks with force pulse, It makes up a bit of the difference in regen loss tho. So it's still great for smaller scale PVP, but wont carry you through a long battle.

The 5 Kagrenac, 3 arch mage is still viable , and I've been hearing some good things with running 5 twice born star. Vicious Death will be a good one to get from PVP tho.

TBS is garbage for pvp because of the abundance of crit resist. (since its inherint strength is stacking shadow + thief for crazy damage)
Kag's isn't bad, I'd even call it an acceptable substitute for Julianos, but its certainly not BiS since you don't need the health or the regen and you lose 75ish spell power.
Archmage also isn't terrible, but again, you're gaining regen you don't particularly need and substituting spell dam for max magika, which, for a sorc, isn't such an advantageous trade-off in my opinion since its much easier to stack spell damage through julianos/kena/willpower with spell dam enchants than it is to stack max magika without using mage light/bound armor

glavius · March 2016

It's just a matter of fighting enough people and you will be hard pressed even with 2k regen.
Or maybe I just suck :-)

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2016

Kags and Julianos is up to debate..I know myself and other Sorcs see Kags as BIS in PVP and Julanis as BIS for PVE, faster rez speed, increased helath, and increased recovery are all very valuable in Cyrodiil...and over half of Cyrodiil are running Damage Shields so that Crit bonus is wasted half the time where the health and recovery both help your survivability and sustain....

I know folks who use both sets, neither is perse better...just depends on the situation and how you play...Kags is probably better for solo PVP, Julianos is probably; better for group..both are solid....the choice between these 2 won't make or break you IMO.

If you prefer more sustain Kags, if you prefer more crit and damage, Juls. Juls is also probably better for PVE though too.

Lexxypwns · March 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Kags and Julianos is up to debate..I know myself and other Sorcs see Kags as BIS in PVP and Julanis as BIS for PVE, faster rez speed, increased helath, and increased recovery are all very valuable in Cyrodiil...and over half of Cyrodiil are running Damage Shields so that Crit bonus is wasted half the time where the health and recovery both help your survivability and sustain....

I know folks who use both sets, neither is perse better...just depends on the situation and how you play...Kags is probably better for solo PVP, Julianos is probably; better for group..both are solid....the choice between these 2 won't make or break you IMO.

If you prefer more sustain Kags, if you prefer more crit and damage, Juls. Juls is also probably better for PVE though too.

Res speed is irrelevant unless you're building for a group scenario, in which case I'd probably argue that alchemist far outshines kag's or julianos, especially in the TG proxy det meta. Health is irrelevant for sorcs since you won't be running impen or passable base resistances, making the extra health completely irrelevant, if you don't have shields up you're dead in 3 hits tops, regardless of 1500 health.

Now, I can either have 1 regen bonus or 2 crit bonus + 75 spell damage, I'm sorry, but it is very clear that Julianos outshines kags, even if you say the crit bonus is totally worthless(which, they aren't, while they're not as effective in pvp as in pve, the bonus crit helps execute other sorcs/magblades after dropping shields and still has a measurable effect against other classes since most people aren't running 3500 crit resist), 75 spell dam is still more useful than 150 odd regen that you don't need

glavius wrote: »

It's just a matter of fighting enough people and you will be hard pressed even with 2k regen.
Or maybe I just suck :-)

I routinely wipe 5 + players on my sorc with 1500 base mag regen and very very rarely have any issues with magika management that can't be overcome through clever positioning, carefully timed potions, and proper skill rotations

#FreeEzareth so someone else who knows maths can confirm what I'm saying

Edit: I think the people in this thread that feel they need 2k mag regen are most likely DW sorcs spamming Trapping webs like its going out of style, which isn't a good pvp build by a long shot. If you're running DW, you don't need a spammable DPS, especially not one as expensive as trapping webs, since its all about the burst on the dw sorc build

Makkir · March 2016

Ezareth is free to roam my sig and do as he pleases. He is free there, free from the madbros on these forums that worked so hard to remove him.

@Lexxypwns you can't advise someone to run that gear set up who isn't as skilled as you in positioning, LOS, kiting, etc.

As a starting point, running the Kag's is fine for someone who isn't quite to the skill ceiling yet.

I am running Kena, Bloodpsawn, 5pc Clever, 2pc torugs, and 3pc willpower on my DW gank build. I think I am sitting at 1900 MR, over 4k Spell Dmg when using a potion, and 37k Magicka.

It sucks when it's not a 1v1 or 1v2 situation, and I am not overly conservative with streak as well. Sometimes you gotta pound on those keybinds just to get the skill to fire off.

I am also running those 3pc instant arming mines right now but I f-king hate them. I thought I could use to my advantage but more times I am finding people able to easily avoid them since no one is stationary anyway.

Lexxypwns · March 2016

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth is free to roam my sig and do as he pleases. He is free there, free from the madbros on these forums that worked so hard to remove him.

@Lexxypwns you can't advise someone to run that gear set up who isn't as skilled as you in positioning, LOS, kiting, etc.

As a starting point, running the Kag's is fine for someone who isn't quite to the skill ceiling yet.

I am running Kena, Bloodpsawn, 5pc Clever, 2pc torugs, and 3pc willpower on my DW gank build. I think I am sitting at 1900 MR, over 4k Spell Dmg when using a potion, and 37k Magicka.

It sucks when it's not a 1v1 or 1v2 situation, and I am not overly conservative with streak as well. Sometimes you gotta pound on those keybinds just to get the skill to fire off.

I am also running those 3pc instant arming mines right now but I f-king hate them. I thought I could use to my advantage but more times I am finding people able to easily avoid them since no one is stationary anyway.

That's fair, I totally agree with you.

Also dat 1 kena 1 Bloodspawn is a god send, my favorite 2 pc setup available. I love engine guardian, but I don't like the RNG proc since I only really care for the stamina one so I ditched it

Edit: I don't consider myself a true top-tier sorc, I reserve that for the likes of @Force-Siphon @mythk and @Ezareth (RIP). I know there's a lot I could do better and I see mistakes from myself constantly that I know these guys don't make

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

I wear 5x kags, 3x arch mage, 3x willpower. 5x light, 2x heavy. 5x impen, 2x reinforced, 1x nirnhoned staff. Trying to be tanky while still remaining pokey. Combat prayer ftw. Still have 35k mag, 3k spell damage buffed and 1600 regen despite no infused or divines. I'm mainly a group player, preferring smaller groups. I run solo sometimes too but usually within sight of friendlies. Running completely solo is easier said than done these days, if you claim to you're probably a ganker, spend lots of time mounted or stealthed, or just know where to find groups of noobs. I don't know what solo sorcs get up to these days but I imagine they must need a lot of patience for it.

Lexxypwns · March 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I wear 5x kags, 3x arch mage, 3x willpower. 5x light, 2x heavy. 5x impen, 2x reinforced, 1x nirnhoned staff. Trying to be tanky while still remaining pokey. Combat prayer ftw. Still have 35k mag, 3k spell damage buffed and 1600 regen despite no infused or divines. I'm mainly a group player, preferring smaller groups. I run solo sometimes too but usually within sight of friendlies. Running completely solo is easier said than done these days, if you claim to you're probably a ganker, spend lots of time mounted or stealthed, or just know where to find groups of noobs. I don't know what solo sorcs get up to these days but I imagine they must need a lot of patience for it.

So here's what I do for solo play

1. Ride to enemy keep
2. Capture a resource to get their attention
3. Patrol said resource until pugs be like "omg, why that resource not ours"(Usually go get high or take a *** while I'm waiting)
4. Kill them on resource until they start to get discouraged
5. Leave resource to draw pugs back out to fight me "he just killed us bcuz of guards"
6. Kill pugs
7. T-bag pugs
8. Return to keep area for respawning pugs and the friends they called

Alternatively
1. Find an area where 1 opposing faction is fighting another
2. Use proper positioning to avoid getting zerged down while drawing a manageable number of opponents
3. Kite/LoS, use attrition to kill the chasers
4. Return to previous battleground
5. Repeat

I'm not saying I never die or get zerged down, but as long as you're super careful with positioning you can mitigate the chances of being overwhelmed

I'm pretty sure @Sypher played a solo sorc for most of the IC and orsinium updates, he would probably be willing to share some insights and tips as well

Edit: I'd love to talk with you about your use of combat prayer, either here or in messages, if I could get away with dropping healing ward I could probably go even less regen than I currently run, I just haven't been able to get the hang of combat prayer as a substitute

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I wear 5x kags, 3x arch mage, 3x willpower. 5x light, 2x heavy. 5x impen, 2x reinforced, 1x nirnhoned staff. Trying to be tanky while still remaining pokey. Combat prayer ftw. Still have 35k mag, 3k spell damage buffed and 1600 regen despite no infused or divines. I'm mainly a group player, preferring smaller groups. I run solo sometimes too but usually within sight of friendlies. Running completely solo is easier said than done these days, if you claim to you're probably a ganker, spend lots of time mounted or stealthed, or just know where to find groups of noobs. I don't know what solo sorcs get up to these days but I imagine they must need a lot of patience for it.

So here's what I do for solo play

1. Ride to enemy keep
2. Capture a resource to get their attention
3. Patrol said resource until pugs be like "omg, why that resource not ours"(Usually go get high or take a *** while I'm waiting)
4. Kill them on resource until they start to get discouraged
5. Leave resource to draw pugs back out to fight me "he just killed us bcuz of guards"
6. Kill pugs
7. T-bag pugs
8. Return to keep area for respawning pugs and the friends they called

Alternatively
1. Find an area where 1 opposing faction is fighting another
2. Use proper positioning to avoid getting zerged down while drawing a manageable number of opponents
3. Kite/LoS, use attrition to kill the chasers
4. Return to previous battleground
5. Repeat

I'm not saying I never die or get zerged down, but as long as you're super careful with positioning you can mitigate the chances of being overwhelmed

I've done the resource thing and it can get boring or go wrong, requires patience. I do the alternative thing from time to time, but one of the opposing factions is usuallly my own, I never know which faction to target if I jump in on a blue/red fight, ends up being a half-a$$ed effort on my behalf. Since the nerf streak running solo requires a lot more effort and patience in my experience. Also I easily get bored or lonely running about by myself, always prefer to have a couple of friendlies about. I also have issues balancing fun with duty; if I feel like what I'm doing isn't for a greater cause I get itchy feet or feel like I'm being a nuisance. I think I'm just a pug at heart lol.

Minalan · March 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I wear 5x kags, 3x arch mage, 3x willpower. 5x light, 2x heavy. 5x impen, 2x reinforced, 1x nirnhoned staff. Trying to be tanky while still remaining pokey. Combat prayer ftw. Still have 35k mag, 3k spell damage buffed and 1600 regen despite no infused or divines. I'm mainly a group player, preferring smaller groups. I run solo sometimes too but usually within sight of friendlies. Running completely solo is easier said than done these days, if you claim to you're probably a ganker, spend lots of time mounted or stealthed, or just know where to find groups of noobs. I don't know what solo sorcs get up to these days but I imagine they must need a lot of patience for it.

So here's what I do for solo play

1. Ride to enemy keep
2. Capture a resource to get their attention
3. Patrol said resource until pugs be like "omg, why that resource not ours"(Usually go get high or take a *** while I'm waiting)
4. Kill them on resource until they start to get discouraged
5. Leave resource to draw pugs back out to fight me "he just killed us bcuz of guards"
6. Kill pugs
7. T-bag pugs
8. Return to keep area for respawning pugs and the friends they called

Alternatively
1. Find an area where 1 opposing faction is fighting another
2. Use proper positioning to avoid getting zerged down while drawing a manageable number of opponents
3. Kite/LoS, use attrition to kill the chasers
4. Return to previous battleground
5. Repeat

I'm not saying I never die or get zerged down, but as long as you're super careful with positioning you can mitigate the chances of being overwhelmed

I'm pretty sure @Sypher played a solo sorc for most of the IC and orsinium updates, he would probably be willing to share some insights and tips as well

Edit: I'd love to talk with you about your use of combat prayer, either here or in messages, if I could get away with dropping healing ward I could probably go even less regen than I currently run, I just haven't been able to get the hang of combat prayer as a substitute

I'd love to hear what you have slotted on your ability bars, and your strategy/tactics you use. That is, if you don't mind sharing with a relative new player.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

@Lexxypwns If you mainly solo it probably isn't wise to give up healing ward. The theory behind my build was born from a desire to give up shield stacking, but if I'm honest it's only really plausible if you're not the main focus of every fight.

My immediate defense is made up of a 10.3k hardened ward, defensive rune and combat prayer. When they fail I then have 23k spell resistance, 19k physical resistance and 1500 crit resistance, and I have 32cp each in hardy and elemental defender, and some in thick skinned and resistant. This, in theory, should allow my ward to take more damage and then for me to take more damage when my ward goes down, buying me more time to recast ward and heal. I'm essentially trying to increase my time to die.

All I can say is it seems to work about 60% of the time, but exactly how much more damage I can take or how much time that buys me I couldn't say. Certain players I can tank with no shield, others still seemingly 3 shot me through my ward. Penetration is a counter to this build and there is plently of that about. It does feel good not to have to cast 3 shields continually, but in reality I just replaced 2 shields with defensive rune and combat prayer which need casting just as much. So I'm not under some delusion that this build is better than a shield stacking build, it certainly makes you less survivable when focused by multiple players, but it works and is different and fun.

Regarding the use of combat prayer; it was just about effective as a burst heal in the last patch, mitigated somewhat by the 8% damage buff. However, in the latest patch it might not cut it as a burst heal and the 8% damage buff might not be enough to make up for this. I'm thinking I might need to switch to blessing of restoration. Combat prayer crits for 5k in cyro whereas blessing crits for around 7k. Need to try this out more.

If you think about what the combination of healing and hardened ward are doing for you it doesn't take too much adjustment to start using hardened ward and blessing instead, they're still insta-cast and spammable. Defensive rune is worth it for the confusion is causes plucky young NBs

Makkir · March 2016

You don't need combat prayer if you run surge, you just can't be put on the defensive before your opponent.

This patch I am a huge fan of running Hardened Ward on my offensive bar along with Inner Light. It forces me to put Curse on my Resto bar which sucks but will take some getting used to. The advantage of running these two on my destro bar is the ability to stay on the offensive and keep on pressure. Running inner light on my shield bar turns bigger wards, but I am likely going to throw that back on my resto bar (crit heals) so I can move Curse back to destro.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

Makkir wrote: »

You don't need combat prayer if you run surge, you just can't be put on the defensive before your opponent.

This patch I am a huge fan of running Hardened Ward on my offensive bar along with Inner Light. It forces me to put Curse on my Resto bar which sucks but will take some getting used to. The advantage of running these two on my destro bar is the ability to stay on the offensive and keep on pressure. Running inner light on my shield bar turns bigger wards, but I am likely going to throw that back on my resto bar (crit heals) so I can move Curse back to destro.

Surge isn't reliable enough imo, I use it and it's nice when it heals but I can't rely on it. Blessing and it's morphs are viable substitutes for healing ward, surge isn't. I haven't had much time to theory about the new patch yet, I'm sure I'll have to make some changes.

Edit: combat prayer becomes more valuable in group play, suddenly granting your group 8% more damage can have visible effects, and I like to empower mines or atro, or anything with it as I don't use entropy.

Lexxypwns · March 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I wear 5x kags, 3x arch mage, 3x willpower. 5x light, 2x heavy. 5x impen, 2x reinforced, 1x nirnhoned staff. Trying to be tanky while still remaining pokey. Combat prayer ftw. Still have 35k mag, 3k spell damage buffed and 1600 regen despite no infused or divines. I'm mainly a group player, preferring smaller groups. I run solo sometimes too but usually within sight of friendlies. Running completely solo is easier said than done these days, if you claim to you're probably a ganker, spend lots of time mounted or stealthed, or just know where to find groups of noobs. I don't know what solo sorcs get up to these days but I imagine they must need a lot of patience for it.

So here's what I do for solo play

1. Ride to enemy keep
2. Capture a resource to get their attention
3. Patrol said resource until pugs be like "omg, why that resource not ours"(Usually go get high or take a *** while I'm waiting)
4. Kill them on resource until they start to get discouraged
5. Leave resource to draw pugs back out to fight me "he just killed us bcuz of guards"
6. Kill pugs
7. T-bag pugs
8. Return to keep area for respawning pugs and the friends they called

Alternatively
1. Find an area where 1 opposing faction is fighting another
2. Use proper positioning to avoid getting zerged down while drawing a manageable number of opponents
3. Kite/LoS, use attrition to kill the chasers
4. Return to previous battleground
5. Repeat

I'm not saying I never die or get zerged down, but as long as you're super careful with positioning you can mitigate the chances of being overwhelmed

I've done the resource thing and it can get boring or go wrong, requires patience. I do the alternative thing from time to time, but one of the opposing factions is usuallly my own, I never know which faction to target if I jump in on a blue/red fight, ends up being a half-a$$ed effort on my behalf. Since the nerf streak running solo requires a lot more effort and patience in my experience. Also I easily get bored or lonely running about by myself, always prefer to have a couple of friendlies about. I also have issues balancing fun with duty; if I feel like what I'm doing isn't for a greater cause I get itchy feet or feel like I'm being a nuisance. I think I'm just a pug at heart lol.

I can't disagree with that, I personally have a lot more fun when I'm playing duo, since I know there's someone else enjoying it there with me

Makkir wrote: »

You don't need combat prayer if you run surge, you just can't be put on the defensive before your opponent.

This patch I am a huge fan of running Hardened Ward on my offensive bar along with Inner Light. It forces me to put Curse on my Resto bar which sucks but will take some getting used to. The advantage of running these two on my destro bar is the ability to stay on the offensive and keep on pressure. Running inner light on my shield bar turns bigger wards, but I am likely going to throw that back on my resto bar (crit heals) so I can move Curse back to destro.

I only run surge on my overload bar, since I'm destro sorc I like the extra burst empower gives me, this may change when I can use magelight for empower. At which point I'll be running degeneration on my overload bar

The_Great_Maldini · March 2016

Wow thank you guys for all of your insight. I have 750 Ancestor Silk and want to make a PvP gear setup. I currently PvP in my PeE setup which consists of:

5x Julianos
3x Willpower
2x Kena/Nerienth
Dead slot Destro/Resto

I was considering make TBS for an alternative PvE setup and was wondering if it could benefit me in PvP like if I ran Apprentice and Atronach and all divines or Atronach and Thief.

How much would you say a Vicious Death set goes for?

I primarily run in groups.

Makkir · March 2016

Lexy by chance do you/have you run 5pc succession or 2pc Kena with your overload? My RNG is worse than any one can imagine, and I dont want to blow time on it if someone whose run it can advise against it.

Makkir · March 2016

No dont run TBS. if you can wait a few weeks Vicious Death will drop drastically in price.

Makkir · March 2016

the easiest set up to maximize all your slots would be 5 kags, 3 willpower, 3 arch mage.

start with atronach mundus, spell dmg on your jewelry.

once you are confident with your build, you can start gearing to work with your playstyle.

Waffennacht · March 2016

I use streak offensively, I put ward on offensive bar to help proc frag, I use Tomb to hit opponents after I hit them with streak or frag, the roots stacks with stun or knock down

Frag + curse + streak + tomb = over 20k damage in PvP non-crit

I dw and run surge on overload bar. I run never above 1300 regen.

I can't remember the last time I lost 1v1

Makkir · March 2016

Waffen you're probably better (and younger than I) at placing that damn yellow circle. It kills too much time for me. Trust me, I WANT to love it. When you have the advantage on someone and they don't see you coming...yeah its a neat way to root them and do some instant dmg.