@ZOS, Why do you create DLC's with expectations that only part of your player base will buy it?

ShedsHisTail · March 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

You are looking at a piece of a whole.

When you judge a gaming experience by a subset of it, or any experience, really, it is easy to find major flaws and faults.

The key concept to remember in my opinion is that there is an overarching plan that we don't know. The developers/lead designers/people in charge have a "end goal" for the game that we just don't know, so in creating small DLC that seem to only cater to one small subset, they may very well be laying the foundation for much larger things.

Now, the base game patch that isn't part of the DLC is something that a lot of people don't mention, but they balance pass and bug fix the base game too.

This DLC very well just be the framework and foundation for the larger Dark Brotherhood pass, but because they have shareholders and gamers that want new content immediately, they have to deliver what they can, when they can.

I am a front-end web developer and I know the frustrations of being forced to push something that works 90% of the time and fix the 10% on live because the suits promised a date, something there is nothing I can do. If it's not done, its done.

Just saying, don't grab this small slice of the pie and judge the whole meal on it.

If @ZOS can't deliver a DLC that appeals to everyone at the same time, they should then look at another approach to it and alternate DLC's. So PVE gets TG now and the next DLC should be PVP, that's not being done as they've planned on Dark Brotherhood. Since we don't know exactly what that's going to bring to the game other than the obvious we can hope that they will have PVP in there but it's kind of doubtful they will based on previous DLC released.

I would rather have unique, high quality specialized DLCs on a rotation, than watered-down mass-appeal DLC's on the regular. That's what ruined Guild Wars 2 for me. Every update tried to appeal to everyone and eventually they all felt the same.

WalkingLegacy · March 2016

Thavie wrote: »

So based on that, WHY make a DLC that only PART of your players will buy???

So you know how to create DLC that EVERYONE will buy, right?

Plenty of successful MMOs out there to mirror off of if they need help.

Robbmrp · March 2016

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

I'm not referring to a new zone with both PVE and PVP like Imperial City was. They could have easily added in Arena's or other small form of battlegrounds with the two new PVE DLC's.

What is the connection between the Thieves Guild and arenas?

What they did makes sense. Release DLC that adds more of what the game is. Play to your strengths.

I think adding arenas is a good thing, but hardly a priority. If that is what people came to ESO for, they made a wrong turn somewhere, because that isn't this game.

I wasn't saying that there needs to be a connection between the PVE/PVP content being released. Just that the DLC's should include some of both.

As far as how an Arena would tie in with the TG, how cool would it have been had there been an option when your bounty is high enough that when you get caught by a guard that you get a third option which would be to participate in an arena with another prisoner to battle it out. The winner would have had their bounty removed. People are always saying they have no way to pay off extremely high bounties and this would help with that.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · March 2016

There could be an oxygen shortage and 100% of people wouldn't even buy air. No product, literally ever, has a 100% adoption rate.

Toxic_Hemlock · March 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

There could be an oxygen shortage and 100% of people wouldn't even buy air. No product, literally ever, has a 100% adoption rate.

Well there is dying, just saying.

But I get your argument; can I get a can of air now please.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · March 2016

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

There could be an oxygen shortage and 100% of people wouldn't even buy air. No product, literally ever, has a 100% adoption rate.

Well there is dying, just saying.

But I get your argument; can I get a can of air now please.

Only in Spaceballs.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · March 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

I'm not referring to a new zone with both PVE and PVP like Imperial City was. They could have easily added in Arena's or other small form of battlegrounds with the two new PVE DLC's.

What is the connection between the Thieves Guild and arenas?

What they did makes sense. Release DLC that adds more of what the game is. Play to your strengths.

I think adding arenas is a good thing, but hardly a priority. If that is what people came to ESO for, they made a wrong turn somewhere, because that isn't this game.

I wasn't saying that there needs to be a connection between the PVE/PVP content being released. Just that the DLC's should include some of both.

As far as how an Arena would tie in with the TG, how cool would it have been had there been an option when your bounty is high enough that when you get caught by a guard that you get a third option which would be to participate in an arena with another prisoner to battle it out. The winner would have had their bounty removed. People are always saying they have no way to pay off extremely high bounties and this would help with that.

I like this idea, I'd watch 2 or more "criminal scum" fight to the death in an area or caged match. Maybe even introduce betting on the out come of the fights.

It would certainly be one of the more popular areas in the game,.... although it could be so popular that lag might become an issue.

ShedsHisTail · March 2016

Just give us the ability to take out contracts on people with bounties, or to pay the Dark Brotherhood to offer contracts against other players. Open up world PvP with Dark Brotherhood DLC.

Toxic_Hemlock · March 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Just give us the ability to take out contracts on people with bounties, or to pay the Dark Brotherhood to offer contracts against other players. Open up world PvP with Dark Brotherhood DLC.

Anyone know of a good MMO W/O PVP?

ShedsHisTail · March 2016

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Just give us the ability to take out contracts on people with bounties, or to pay the Dark Brotherhood to offer contracts against other players. Open up world PvP with Dark Brotherhood DLC.

Anyone know of a good MMO W/O PVP?

It'd be opt-in.
Keep your bounty low, you got no problems.

AshTal · March 2016

I agree with the OP - however I think a lot of people will buy Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood. I know I wouldn't if I had a choice but its this or nothing. Now what I would never buy is IC that was just utter *** - I get it for free as I subscribed but can't say I have sat foot in there at all since the Orcisisunum DLC.

It sucks for PvP and its even worse for PvE.

Seraseth · March 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I would rather have unique, high quality specialized DLCs on a rotation, than watered-down mass-appeal DLC's on the regular. That's what ruined Guild Wars 2 for me. Every update tried to appeal to everyone and eventually they all felt the same.

Exactly, if you make a dlc that's half pvp and half pve, someone like me who won't touch pvp would end up with only half a dlc worth of content at a full dlc price. It wouldn't be worth it to me.

I much prefer focused dlc's where I can pick and choose which ones I want based on my playstyle, instead of buying a bunch of content I have zero interest in.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · March 2016

Seraseth wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I would rather have unique, high quality specialized DLCs on a rotation, than watered-down mass-appeal DLC's on the regular. That's what ruined Guild Wars 2 for me. Every update tried to appeal to everyone and eventually they all felt the same.

Exactly, if you make a dlc that's half pvp and half pve, someone like me who won't touch pvp would end up with only half a dlc worth of content at a full dlc price. It wouldn't be worth it to me.

I much prefer focused dlc's where I can pick and choose which ones I want based on my playstyle, instead of buying a bunch of content I have zero interest in.

I'm about a 50/50 PVP v PVE guy who buys all the content. I kinda like the rotation. When I get bored of something I have another zone that's a completely different experience.

babylon · March 2016

Thavie wrote: »

So you know how to create DLC that EVERYONE will buy, right?

I came up with an idea on page one of this thread that might work -

babylon wrote: »

What might be a nice idea would be create two different phases of each zone (much the same way quest phasing works), where one is a PVE version of the map, and the other is a PVP version of the map. Could then have a PVE Cyrodiil and a PVE Imperial City, as well as PVP in all zones, if you wish.

Could then have a setting in options that allows you to automatically choose either PVE or PVP as your preference each time you zone, or to ask each time before changing zones if you wanted the PVE version of map or PVP version of map (so three options).

That way all DLC would appeal to all players of the game.

I_killed_Vivec · March 2016

Seraseth wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I would rather have unique, high quality specialized DLCs on a rotation, than watered-down mass-appeal DLC's on the regular. That's what ruined Guild Wars 2 for me. Every update tried to appeal to everyone and eventually they all felt the same.

Exactly, if you make a dlc that's half pvp and half pve, someone like me who won't touch pvp would end up with only half a dlc worth of content at a full dlc price. It wouldn't be worth it to me.

I much prefer focused dlc's where I can pick and choose which ones I want based on my playstyle, instead of buying a bunch of content I have zero interest in.

Precisely.

Imagine going to a restaurant - "You can have steak and fish for £30!"

"But I don't want the fish, can't I just have the steak for £15?"

"No."

"I think I might eat elsewhere..."

AlphaGenesis · March 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

I get that @ZOS is in business to make money and that's what drives most of the decisions about DLC's. So based on that, WHY make a DLC that only PART of your players will buy???

I prefer small but many DLC, instead of few but large ones.
I really don't enjoy PvP (in any MMO I ever played), so not beeing forced to buy stuff I don't like is great.

Tankqull · March 2016

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

^ As @Taryf said, they tried to be everything to everyone in IC, and only ended up being hated by or disappointing nearly everyone. PvPers hated it because of the PvE quests, PvE'er hated it because of PvP in it. I think it's highly unlikely we'll see another PvP/PvE mixed DLC again.

the problem with ic is that they watered down the originially copied idea of darknessfalls so much to please the pve crowd by granting permanent access instead of the gated access of darknessfalls that in the end neither pvpers nor pveers were pleased. as the first are constantly killed and the later ones have now nothing to fight against...

Marto · March 2016

Think of it this way:

With the current system, playing this game with all updates will cost around 100 dollars a year (4 DLCs a year, average $25)

That is still cheaper than the previous system, which was 180 dollars a year (All content is avaliable, $15 a month)

PLUS the new system allows you to skip a DLC if you're not interested in it. Sure, that means you get less content, but also means you don't have to pay for it.

CJohnson81 · March 2016

Yeah, you really don't make content to try to please everyone or you'll be sorely disappointed with the results. Focused releases are the way to go. The fact that Orsinium, TG and DB are coming back to back to back could simply just have to do with a shuffling of the release schedule since PVP seems to be deteriorating and it needs more fundamental work before additional content is put out. I'm guessing that IC may have taught ZOS a lot about what the players are expecting. For all we know, they had to go back to the drawing board on a major PVP update because of player feedback.

schwarzman1 · March 2016

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

^ As @Taryf said, they tried to be everything to everyone in IC, and only ended up being hated by or disappointing nearly everyone. PvPers hated it because of the PvE quests, PvE'er hated it because of PvP in it. I think it's highly unlikely we'll see another PvP/PvE mixed DLC again.

I really enjoy IC both the pvp and pve aspects. I also suspect there are quite a few like me out there.

ShedsHisTail · March 2016

CJohnson81 wrote: »

Yeah, you really don't make content to try to please everyone or you'll be sorely disappointed with the results. Focused releases are the way to go. The fact that Orsinium, TG and DB are coming back to back to back could simply just have to do with a shuffling of the release schedule since PVP seems to be deteriorating and it needs more fundamental work before additional content is put out. I'm guessing that IC may have taught ZOS a lot about what the players are expecting. For all we know, they had to go back to the drawing board on a major PVP update because of player feedback.

That all seems reasonable...
Might also have something to do with the fact that a -lot- people feel like the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood should have been in the game at release. They're pretty much Elder Scrolls staples and I think delaying the release of either of them much longer would disappoint a lot of people.

Knightpanther · March 2016

Completely agree with the OP.

Loved this game at launch, haven't been so blown away since the launch of Everquest 2 and for gameplay/ freedom of choice this beats everything I've ever played.... BUT.
I got to VR13 and lost interest, plodded away hoping for new content, when they announced a PVPer DLC I left.

I am back now and loving questing again in Orsinium.

For me to buy a DLC it must hold an interest, I hate PvPer (no disrespect intended to Pvpers) but being forced into it would be like watching Man Utd, it wont happen.

Before coming back I filled my time back in WOW where each expansion (love um or hate um) at least has something for everyone.

Be Safe and its good to be back

Mysticman · March 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

If @ZOS can't deliver a DLC that appeals to everyone at the same time, they should then look at another approach to it and alternate DLC's. So PVE gets TG now and the next DLC should be PVP, that's not being done as they've planned on Dark Brotherhood. Since we don't know exactly what that's going to bring to the game other than the obvious we can hope that they will have PVP in there but it's kind of doubtful they will based on previous DLC released.

Your forget one thing this is a Online RPG game that means PVE, PVE and more PVE, this is a "Elder Scrolls" game that means PVE, PVE and more PVE. PVP is very small part of this that's preferred by very a small percentage of the players and the developers could never forget that. Cyrodiil is "always" empty for a reason and it's not because of the lag.

bedlom · March 2016

I like to think that they make DLC for the TES fans and to make sure they stay focused on the fact that this is TESO.