A serious plea for another nerf of Breath of Life ... from a Templar

Xexpo · March 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

I'm sure there's a reason for the post ... how about you use your words. Its a discussion thread.

I used three.
but if you need more ...

it all seems needlessly complicated ... imo this thread should just say "un-nerf BoL thx"

i mean you did type a bunch of stuff , so you have given it some thought i guess but.. no,
just no
-geared towards tanking? why? i don't even... templar tanks are fine atm

-stamina morphs? (imo sweeps and jabs should be switched around for resource costs, the last thing a magicka templar needs is a spam dps skill that heals the caster, and while we're at it also make Radiant Glory stam based, makes more sense /imo)

-scaled off regen? (and this is where you really lost me) So if I am a templar healer, I have to sacrifice damage (and the usefulness of any other magicka skill) to heal efficiently with my Class skills? but no other class/build does? You would really have to jack up the healing to make me even consider that.

-LoS checks? (I want less lag , not more)

at the end of the day I understand the bs with it not being an auto self heal
but I mean ... If the BoL tool tip was just: Heals you and one* other player for x ... you wouldn't even need to go into all this

and while I love me some fengrush ( i really do!), I don't think rants from half drunk late night streamers should be influencing game mechanics, esp when their calling card is/was wrecking blow spam.. obviously i have no proof of such things but you brought him up

*should still be two

Essiaga · March 2016

kaer426 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

I'm sure there's a reason for the post ... how about you use your words. Its a discussion thread.

I used three.
but if you need more ...

it all seems needlessly complicated ... imo this thread should just say "un-nerf BoL thx"

i mean you did type a bunch of stuff , so you have given it some thought i guess but.. no,
just no
-geared towards tanking? why? i don't even... templar tanks are fine atm

-stamina morphs? (imo sweeps and jabs should be switched around for resource costs, the last thing a magicka templar needs is a spam dps skill that heals the caster, and while we're at it also make Radiant Glory stam based, makes more sense /imo)

-scaled off regen? (and this is where you really lost me) So if I am a templar healer, I have to sacrifice damage (and the usefulness of any other magicka skill) to heal efficiently with my Class skills? but no other class/build does? You would really have to jack up the healing to make me even consider that.

-LoS checks? (I want less lag , not more)

at the end of the day I understand the bs with it not being an auto self heal
but I mean ... If the BoL tool tip was just: Heals you and one* other player for x ... you wouldn't even need to go into all this

and while I love me some fengrush ( i really do!), I don't think rants from half drunk late night streamers should be influencing game mechanics, esp when their calling card is/was wrecking blow spam.. obviously i have no proof of such things but you brought him up

*should still be two

-Scale off regen ... no i want all heals and shield and every other scalable mitigation skill to work like this that don't all ready. * Dragon's blood is a perfectly balance skill because you can't boost it and DPS at the same time.
* Hardened Ward is not a balanced skill because you can boost it and DSP at the same time.
* Breath of Life is not a balanced skill because you can boost it and DPS at the same time.

So as dps creaps up so does healing. They are both Battle Spirit nerfed in PVP because they've grown far to large with removal or caps, cp, gear, etc. and will continue not to be balanced going forward. We're able to stack damage and max stats higher and higher with every gear DLC and gear sets dropped because gear sells DLC. Do you want to be left behind?

Breath of Life ...
If you wanted dungeons to be harder to heal it would have been better to limit the healing rather then the number of heals. heal 3 but cut each heal by 1/3 and BOL is no less useful but simply not as OP. But you can't just a nerf to 1 heal in the game and call it done. You have to adjust how healing works to limit all healing.

To fill the role of a tank you need to switch gear at a minimum. To heal a dungeon, you just run your DPS build with an extra skill and possible switch weapons. So you put on your Seducer, Warlock set (like in the old days) and your good to go. Instead you can heal and DPS a dungeon with easy with BOL with easy.

Same for PVP. You want some sustain you add regen. You sacrifice DPS but you healing improves. You're probably going to live longer and kill slower. Self balancing.

I've already pointed this out but other self balanced skills are Reflective Scales, Cloak, Mass Hys, Streak, etc. They cost what they cost and do what they do with out scaling making them no more and less useful on stamina build or a magicka build. Now what does the Stamplar have? Worse regen and less utility in class then the other classes because Templar lost Blinding Flashes, Eclipse has been nerfed, Sun Shield Battle nerfed, and Cleansing Ritual no longer negates projectiles. Both magicka and Stam build suffer for this and the magicka Templar at least can spam BoL until complaints about OP heals cause it to be nerfed again and again. If the Devs balance the skills they will no longer be able to cry OP. Same with Hardened Ward. Pick the rock, the paper, or the scissors. Now builds become more unique. A tank can become a thing again and less adjustments are needed in the future.

Regen is a more important stat as a healer then pretty much all others so it make sense to scale off of Regen (or health and regen or some variant of stats that are less desired) will create more balance. I have no points in Blessing, and run my old v14 Seducer/Warlock gear for dungeons and Trials and still have no issues with weak heals. I've solo healed both AA and Hel Ra, and on a Bosmer Templar. You don't need to invest in improved heals. They're OP. So nerf them infavor of mitigation and the class could feel interesting again.

Health based shield are proof of that. No one is stacking health to the sky, unless they're trying to troll with Sun Shield. If you create a MAX damage for such skills then you're good. They did it with Backlash.

Nothing is beyond balancing or reasoning through. There's a million ways to do these things.

I hear you on the lag but the checks are being run already with smart heals and there are ways to limit the number of times the skill is cast with out ruining its viability in PVP or PVE.

Making a self heal and a party heal means 2 slots. Not every one is going to slot both. I bet most people will slot the self heal that has no need for LOS or other checks for smart heals and lag might go down.

Increase the base cost of the party heal to something like 6-10k and allow it to heal 3 targets. Add an element where the cost will go down or be refunded fairly quickly when healing an ally under 40ish% heal. Then your resource management comes into question. Do I spam and waste 1/4th of my magicka pool or do I heal smart and only cast it when I'll get the reduced cost?

Hybrid builds were all but killed when caps were removed. Stam heals, even if they just get a party heal, gives a legit hybrid feel. I don't know how the Stam Sorcs pet heal scales but I'm assuming its the similar to BOL. If it were changed to be a only party heal then Stam Sorc could run also fill this role and that could be unique to those two classes but in different ways. Also people wouldn't QQ that the class with OP shields, Mobility, and Burst DPS that has a big leg up in PVP didn't just get its own version of BOL. People would accept that its a party skill that helps is MOSTLY just a healers skill. Of course if ZOS adopts my take on mitgation scaling Hardened Ward would not be so OP that it requires a Battle Spirit nerf of all skills.

So this fixes the BOL and Hardened Ward OP issue, as well as help with lag in PVP, and makes dungeon healing more challenging, and brings back some hybrid builds ... Did I miss anything?

Oh and it allows the Templar to be able to stand its ground better by allowing the devs to stop targeting mitigation in hopes of balancing the classes OP heals. So Stand Your Ground becomes a thing again since Battle Spirit will not need to nerf Healing OR shields and DK and Templar can use those skills (Ignious and sun shield and Dragons Blood) as intended.

Most of this crap I'm just coming up with off the top of my head. Its wonder ZOS didn't when they were making changes to the game.

Sugaroverdose · March 2016

Like your ideas: "Hey ZOS if you started to nerf templars - do it until they become unplayable junk in pvp"

Essiaga · March 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Like your ideas: "Hey ZOS if you started to nerf templars - do it until they become unplayable junk in pvp"

I'm not sure if you attempting to say i'm weakening the class or what. Perhaps read the post just above yours.

Sugaroverdose · March 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Like your ideas: "Hey ZOS if you started to nerf templars - do it until they become unplayable junk in pvp"

I'm not sure if you attempting to say i'm weakening the class or what. Perhaps read the post just above yours.

Yep i'm saying that your ideas will destroy magicka templars in pvp, completely.
6-10k for party heal also awesome idea: numbers will become much more superior in pvp, while in PVE every templar will just stack regen, cost reduction and other things, or will just completely drop class skills and use healing staff instead.

Alorier · March 2016

wow Templars will just become unplayable if people keep asking for nerf after nerf , this is what this game has come to now

WillhelmBlack · March 2016

Lol ok

Wreuntzylla · March 2016

I have some ideas ZoS could implement to counter all that OP Templar healing! I have a few more ideas to, but wanted to see what people thought of these first.

1. Add a gap closer that you can use over and over, and let it perma stun the templar
2. For goodness sake, finally add a stamina based heal debuff and a champion passive buff to it
3. How about a long duration stun that goes through block?
4. Or maybe focus on defense, add a huge shield, let's say 10k+, so even if we can't kill the templar we won't be killed by them.

I mean, it's so embarassing to die to a templar.

Essiaga · March 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Like your ideas: "Hey ZOS if you started to nerf templars - do it until they become unplayable junk in pvp"

I'm not sure if you attempting to say i'm weakening the class or what. Perhaps read the post just above yours.

Yep i'm saying that your ideas will destroy magicka templars in pvp, completely.
6-10k for party heal also awesome idea: numbers will become much more superior in pvp, while in PVE every templar will just stack regen, cost reduction and other things, or will just completely drop class skills and use healing staff instead.

I don't think it will because i'm calling for reduced healing but restoring our mitigation skills. It will open up the class to be more like what it used to be and is supposed to be. A Stand Your Ground class. Currently it's more run keep up or die class and was made so more by the changes to retreating maneuvers.

A sorc has more ability to stand its ground and keeping up the damage then a Templar does. BOL used to have to be spammed to be healed to full health in PVE. Now its a 1 button over heal. Blessing is worthless in PVE. Healings's 50% reduction in PVP shows that it is not balanced, but it makes Blessing more valuable. If they balanced healing and shields it would mean ... um, well balance. No longer can anyone 'QQ' BOL and Ward are OP.

Think about it. Health increase by 4k but healing goes down? Why? Are we not healing the same people? Does it really take 50% more healing to heal a person with 4k less health in PVP? Damage goes down because ZOS didn't balance it off killing players. They balanced it for PVE and then reduced it in PVP. What's the difference if they increase damage, healing, and shields in PVE instead of Battle Spirit nerfing it in PVP? Or how about they just balance battle spirit out of the game all together. We don't need 30k+ damage per SECOND builds when the average player has 20-24k health.

As for 6-10k cost party heal. I did spell out it was an anti-spamming measure. If its a legit heal (ally under x%) you'll lower its cost to make it no worse then current cost. Hell you can lower it even more for each ally under x% to the point that it's nearly free if you ZOS wish. It simply requires the player manage the skill rather then spam it. Its kinda like the streak/dodge roll nerf only better.

Stacking regen could lower your magicka pool so the 6-10k cost is that much more scary. Or it could effect your ability to stack Spell Damage and sacrifice DPS. So a dedicated heal will be pretty much be just that, and DD will be just that ... or a solid balance of both. Right now we stack for DPS and pop huge heal and sorc's Ward. It's a silly concept and is constantly complained about.

If people stop slotting it because they can't figure out how to use it then fine by me. I'm not in favor of the numbers win approach to PVP and I don't think siege and Magicka Det with gimmick sets should be the way you weaken ball groups, because they just become tools for the ball groups. You do it by balancing skills and let players compete. When arenas come I think you'll see plenty of people calling for changes like i propose cause they won't be hidden with in a zerg or behind siege, etc. It will come down to a player and the choices they make (in their build and in battle). BOL and Ward are going to be the target of everyone's rage.

Do you see Templars as healers first? Cause no one sees DK as tanks first. They can do as they please in PVP. If our only value is spaming BOL to the point of needing a nerf then ZOS should be looking to fix the issue instead of weakening a skill. They've been pushing Healing Ritual since launch and eventually that's going to be your party heal if ZOS has it's way. I'd rather have 6-10k party heal with reduced cost on low health allies rather then a channel, snare heal any day.

BTW ... I want all healing and scale-able mitigation to work off stats that people don't stack for DPS. So resto skills would be brought in line as well. Resto won't be superior to BoL unless the player can't manage the skill. It will be no different then it was 2 weeks ago only more balanced and less abused.

Essiaga · March 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Lol ok

Does anyone actually come to the Forums for discussion? Or just to run up their post count?

davidtxr wrote: »

wow Templars will just become unplayable if people keep asking for nerf after nerf , this is what this game has come to now

How so? What are your issues with what was posted? Lets discuss. I've made several points. You made a vague comment.

Come on people. Why are you posting if you're not countering a point? This isn't a vote. Its a discussion. If I'm wrong then show me how so ZOS has more then one point of view to ignore.

Sugaroverdose · March 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Like your ideas: "Hey ZOS if you started to nerf templars - do it until they become unplayable junk in pvp"

I'm not sure if you attempting to say i'm weakening the class or what. Perhaps read the post just above yours.

Yep i'm saying that your ideas will destroy magicka templars in pvp, completely.
6-10k for party heal also awesome idea: numbers will become much more superior in pvp, while in PVE every templar will just stack regen, cost reduction and other things, or will just completely drop class skills and use healing staff instead.

I don't think it will because i'm calling for reduced healing but restoring our mitigation skills. It will open up the class to be more like what it used to be and is supposed to be. A Stand Your Ground class. Currently it's more run keep up or die class and was made so more by the changes to retreating maneuvers.

A sorc has more ability to stand its ground and keeping up the damage then a Templar does. BOL used to have to be spammed to be healed to full health in PVE. Now its a 1 button over heal. Blessing is worthless in PVE. Healings's 50% reduction in PVP shows that it is not balanced, but it makes Blessing more valuable. If they balanced healing and shields it would mean ... um, well balance. No longer can anyone 'QQ' BOL and Ward are OP.

Think about it. Health increase by 4k but healing goes down? Why? Are we not healing the same people? Does it really take 50% more healing to heal a person with 4k less health in PVP? Damage goes down because ZOS didn't balance it off killing players. They balanced it for PVE and then reduced it in PVP. What's the difference if they increase damage, healing, and shields in PVE instead of Battle Spirit nerfing it in PVP? Or how about they just balance battle spirit out of the game all together. We don't need 30k+ damage per SECOND builds when the average player has 20-24k health.

As for 6-10k cost party heal. I did spell out it was an anti-spamming measure. If its a legit heal (ally under x%) you'll lower its cost to make it no worse then current cost. Hell you can lower it even more for each ally under x% to the point that it's nearly free if you ZOS wish. It simply requires the player manage the skill rather then spam it. Its kinda like the streak/dodge roll nerf only better.

Stacking regen could lower your magicka pool so the 6-10k cost is that much more scary. Or it could effect your ability to stack Spell Damage and sacrifice DPS. So a dedicated heal will be pretty much be just that, and DD will be just that ... or a solid balance of both. Right now we stack for DPS and pop huge heal and sorc's Ward. It's a silly concept and is constantly complained about.

If people stop slotting it because they can't figure out how to use it then fine by me. I'm not in favor of the numbers win approach to PVP and I don't think siege and Magicka Det with gimmick sets should be the way you weaken ball groups, because they just become tools for the ball groups. You do it by balancing skills and let players compete. When arenas come I think you'll see plenty of people calling for changes like i propose cause they won't be hidden with in a zerg or behind siege, etc. It will come down to a player and the choices they make (in their build and in battle). BOL and Ward are going to be the target of everyone's rage.

Do you see Templars as healers first? Cause no one sees DK as tanks first. They can do as they please in PVP. If our only value is spaming BOL to the point of needing a nerf then ZOS should be looking to fix the issue instead of weakening a skill. They've been pushing Healing Ritual since launch and eventually that's going to be your party heal if ZOS has it's way. I'd rather have 6-10k party heal with reduced cost on low health allies rather then a channel, snare heal any day.

BTW ... I want all healing and scale-able mitigation to work off stats that people don't stack for DPS. So resto skills would be brought in line as well. Resto won't be superior to BoL unless the player can't manage the skill. It will be no different then it was 2 weeks ago only more balanced and less abused.

You asking to rework healing skills, and this insanely bad, why? Because much people uses Healing Ritual as a pvp group heal(people who don't - just don't find it useful or play only in small groups < 8), i am one of them and i will not be happy only with "BOL" which will not allow my group to push just because of lack of healing. And i don't want to be healer-only, it's not fun, pvp is about kicking arses.

Stacking regen will not reduce your magicka pool much, it will reduce your spell damage, so in pvp you will scratch like a kitten.

I'm pvp'ing on templar last two month(PS4 EU so i now have less health then should have), changed build 3 or 4 times, now i find out build which comfortable for me and mostly happy with it, i can handle group heal and keep myself alive even while 3-4(sometimes 8+) people focusing at me all the freaking time.

If you ask only for "escape" or "stand own grown" abilities i would support you, but healing is already had enough ZOS attention, don't make it more horrific with your ideas which will not be implemented as you think.

Essiaga · March 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Like your ideas: "Hey ZOS if you started to nerf templars - do it until they become unplayable junk in pvp"

I'm not sure if you attempting to say i'm weakening the class or what. Perhaps read the post just above yours.

Yep i'm saying that your ideas will destroy magicka templars in pvp, completely.
6-10k for party heal also awesome idea: numbers will become much more superior in pvp, while in PVE every templar will just stack regen, cost reduction and other things, or will just completely drop class skills and use healing staff instead.

I don't think it will because i'm calling for reduced healing but restoring our mitigation skills. It will open up the class to be more like what it used to be and is supposed to be. A Stand Your Ground class. Currently it's more run keep up or die class and was made so more by the changes to retreating maneuvers.

A sorc has more ability to stand its ground and keeping up the damage then a Templar does. BOL used to have to be spammed to be healed to full health in PVE. Now its a 1 button over heal. Blessing is worthless in PVE. Healings's 50% reduction in PVP shows that it is not balanced, but it makes Blessing more valuable. If they balanced healing and shields it would mean ... um, well balance. No longer can anyone 'QQ' BOL and Ward are OP.

Think about it. Health increase by 4k but healing goes down? Why? Are we not healing the same people? Does it really take 50% more healing to heal a person with 4k less health in PVP? Damage goes down because ZOS didn't balance it off killing players. They balanced it for PVE and then reduced it in PVP. What's the difference if they increase damage, healing, and shields in PVE instead of Battle Spirit nerfing it in PVP? Or how about they just balance battle spirit out of the game all together. We don't need 30k+ damage per SECOND builds when the average player has 20-24k health.

As for 6-10k cost party heal. I did spell out it was an anti-spamming measure. If its a legit heal (ally under x%) you'll lower its cost to make it no worse then current cost. Hell you can lower it even more for each ally under x% to the point that it's nearly free if you ZOS wish. It simply requires the player manage the skill rather then spam it. Its kinda like the streak/dodge roll nerf only better.

Stacking regen could lower your magicka pool so the 6-10k cost is that much more scary. Or it could effect your ability to stack Spell Damage and sacrifice DPS. So a dedicated heal will be pretty much be just that, and DD will be just that ... or a solid balance of both. Right now we stack for DPS and pop huge heal and sorc's Ward. It's a silly concept and is constantly complained about.

If people stop slotting it because they can't figure out how to use it then fine by me. I'm not in favor of the numbers win approach to PVP and I don't think siege and Magicka Det with gimmick sets should be the way you weaken ball groups, because they just become tools for the ball groups. You do it by balancing skills and let players compete. When arenas come I think you'll see plenty of people calling for changes like i propose cause they won't be hidden with in a zerg or behind siege, etc. It will come down to a player and the choices they make (in their build and in battle). BOL and Ward are going to be the target of everyone's rage.

Do you see Templars as healers first? Cause no one sees DK as tanks first. They can do as they please in PVP. If our only value is spaming BOL to the point of needing a nerf then ZOS should be looking to fix the issue instead of weakening a skill. They've been pushing Healing Ritual since launch and eventually that's going to be your party heal if ZOS has it's way. I'd rather have 6-10k party heal with reduced cost on low health allies rather then a channel, snare heal any day.

BTW ... I want all healing and scale-able mitigation to work off stats that people don't stack for DPS. So resto skills would be brought in line as well. Resto won't be superior to BoL unless the player can't manage the skill. It will be no different then it was 2 weeks ago only more balanced and less abused.

You asking to rework healing skills, and this insanely bad, why? Because much people uses Healing Ritual as a pvp group heal(people who don't - just don't find it useful or play only in small groups < 8), i am one of them and i will not be happy only with "BOL" which will not allow my group to push just because of lack of healing. And i don't want to be healer-only, it's not fun, pvp is about kicking arses.

Stacking regen will not reduce your magicka pool much, it will reduce your spell damage, so in pvp you will scratch like a kitten.

I'm pvp'ing on templar last two month(PS4 EU so i now have less health then should have), changed build 3 or 4 times, now i find out build which comfortable for me and mostly happy with it, i can handle group heal and keep myself alive even while 3-4(sometimes 8+) people focusing at me all the freaking time.

If you ask only for "escape" or "stand own grown" abilities i would support you, but healing is already had enough ZOS attention, don't make it more horrific with your ideas which will not be implemented as you think.

I honestly believe you're the first person to tell me they actually use Healing Ritual, and especially for PVP. I'm glad to see someone likes it. It's losing 25% heal and 25% of its cast time. Most people dislike it

If healing and mitigation are not balanced away from dps then there is no balancing a character. You're just good at everything. Sorc's are the the most tank, most mobile, and best burst DPS all at the same time. Why shouldn't they, and ALL classes have to make choices to be defensive or offensive? That's how the game used to be.

The Templar has been stripped of all its mitigation, and I believe the reason is because healing has become so strong. If you can BOL 1 and get from 10% health to 100% (note that BoL does get more or less powerful with builds and situations) then imagine how long a 1v2 or 1v1 would be if you could mitigate more damage as well. If we still had Blinding Flashes (which if you only played console you never had it) it would be impossible to hit you from melee range. It debuffed the enemies (aoe) giving them a 50% chance to miss.

Since healing has become so strong with the removal of caps and addition of CP the Templar has lost pretyy much all of its mitigation skills. Blinding Flashes (now Radiant Destruction), Eclipse used have maim (reduced damage) and be able to apply to more then 1 target (major nerfs), Sun Shield has been nerfed AND Battle Spirit nerfed to offset the OP size of magicka shield such as Hardened Ward, Harness, Healing Ward because they are based on easily and desirably stacked, and now Cleansing Ritual no longer cleanses projectiles (coming soon for console). The only mitigation skill that's left is Rune Focus, which provides major ward/resolve (avalable to EVERY class and on Hvy Armor skill) and Ultimates. Yes, Sun shield Still exists but it weaker then Healing Ward.

So the class has been dramatically changed from Stand Your Ground, to spam your OP heals while running solid damage. Major Mending buff just is how ZOS gives us more survivability. Healing is also easily over come by CC,

'Stacking regen will not reduce your magicka pool much, it will reduce your spell damage, so in pvp you will scratch like a kitten.' Which is exactly what I'm suggesting. It's self balancing. Currently people are scratching like a lion, moving like a cheetah, healing like a miracle, and in the case of Sorcs mitigating damage like demigod.

Magicka pools might not drop much but damage will drop and when people are choosing between killing fast OR not dying fast things will play differently and Standing Your Ground might become a thing.

Sugaroverdose · March 2016

Sorry, but now i don't see an option to fix this, only with major changes in overall dps. To address this not only sorc shield and bol must be nerfed, but also almost every damage ability, with your suggested change stam nightblade will become №1 and will kill everyone in less than second.

I understand that you want to say that removing soft caps made stacking dps most preferable option, but it does need much deeper changes than nerfing two abilities, which will make two classes completely unprotected against other two. In fact templars are useful in party only until they're alive and they heal

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · March 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

lol nope.

i took honour the dead because of the nerf and even with only one I healed myself plenty but also could save others. some builds have to rely heavily on healing ward to heal and its the exact same way.
LTP issue.
do not approve.
i wouldnt complain master ritualist was revamped to be a more self oriented passive, but to suggest its not helpful is completely insane, its VERY good for pvp.

I find it silly to have to equip and depend on resto staff for self heals and shield when the class I'm playing has both. No other class suffers these flaws. Even the DK gets more use from igneous Shields, and their Battle Nerfed self heal, while weak, is not a roll of the dice. Of course the magicka regen from Resto heavy attacks is super useful as well since Templar lacks regen and is supposed to heal the battlefield in hopes of a self heal.

If you're in or running along side a group with a few healers its not an issue cause everyone is healing everyone else. If you're in a small group or solo and there are not other healers around and your heals are going elsewhere it's got nothing to do with L2P. If I fail to hit the button fine. I'm not a top tier PVPer but limited mechanics are ... limited. Breaking the skills up eliminates accident random healing and makes it a choice rather then a chance to heal self or heal others.

Are you happy with Healing Ritual? ZOS is going to keep trying to make it more useful and BOL less useful. I think this is a solid way to fix 3-4 issues.

As for the Rezing passive ... Its better then say a harvesting passive but it's a crap 4th tier passive that needs to benefit the class. Improved resing AND something else ... sure. Resing OR something else? Something else please.

The issue also is not exclusive to PVP.

It absolutely is a LTP issue. this is how the game currently works, you simply HAVE to learn to play while lobbying to make it better for yourself.

Nope. It's statment about some issue. Not a plea to make me better or nerfs someone else. It's a suggestion to fix several issues that have been complained about around the community and that I've found myself.

I'm in no way saying that I don't make every attempt at being competitive (even if it's silly) as long as I still find it fun. I'm simply saying that these things are silly and lobbying for ZOS to rethink the silliness. I'm in no way a PVP giant. I do ok and try to have fun doing it, but not having a reliable class heals in the situations I find my self in when its all the class is know for is outrages, especially when they removed or nerfed pretty much all the defensive skills in the class. I know most people run in groups with many random heals flying around. I find my self the lone 'healer' a lot due to the times that I play. So its more of an issue for me then for many but that's not to say it isn't a limitation that in the skill that I noticed A LOT in my hour of PVPing.

I'm not at all asking for buffs. In fact I'm calling for nerfs for the most part. Even Wrobel admitted they just made skills to be cool. Now its time to revisit some of the odd things they did and fix the issues they made and healing and BoL has created a lot of issues.

And aren't you the guy that created the WB nerf thread? L2P man.

well i disagree. i still find honor the dead the most effective self heal and i have toons in all classes. thats why i think, you lobying what makes it better for yourself, your opinion your playstyle. pvp wise i like that bol is not as spammable, ballgroups have less reliable non-strategic smart heals, forcing them to stack more at times making them more bomable.
its a pity for pve content but you have to admit it made so much stuff faceroll without needing as many tactics. sorry i jumped on the ltp train so fast but really you have to look at the good it does too.

yes i started a thread about how wb has some imbalance being cheap/spamable damage/cc/buff all in one and that it needs to be looked at becuase there arnt really any onther moves in the catagory and i wanted it adjusted OR bring some other moves up(but i fundamentally think that the spamable dps move should not contain hard CC and making more wb type moves would be bad for the game, thats my opinion.) and i dont need to ltp i always have immovable pots. dosent mean everything is perfectly balanced

however balancing the cp to give physical resist thats on par with magica resist has helped balance it a lot.

strikeback1247 · March 2016

THE most controversial title in the history of eso.

Essiaga · March 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Sorry, but now i don't see an option to fix this, only with major changes in overall dps. To address this not only sorc shield and bol must be nerfed, but also almost every damage ability, with your suggested change stam nightblade will become №1 and will kill everyone in less than second.

I understand that you want to say that removing soft caps made stacking dps most preferable option, but it does need much deeper changes than nerfing two abilities, which will make two classes completely unprotected against other two. In fact templars are useful in party only until they're alive and they heal

Stam NB are among the top 2 and arguably the number 1 right now. They benifit a ton from the way the class is built. Magicka cost skills are still extremely useful to stam builds and then you factor in stacking of Damage. DK class skills are similar. Which is why those are the 2 dominant stam classes. The DK physical ult helps too. The other 2 don't get as much utility in class due to magicka/damage scaling defensive skills. Atleast the Sorc gets streak and lightning form. The Stamper doesn't even resemble a Templar. At least now they get Mending buff, but for all the offensive skills they do get they're still stuck with 2- hander for heals and buffs. All the skills the Stamplar could use, even a magicka cost, were removed attempting to balance BOL.

Your totally right. They would be beasts thought their Vigor and Rally would not be as effective so their survival would be lessened unless they sacrifice damage to improve those heals. ZOS would have to balance other things to keep this from happening.

I'm not calling for a nerf of 2 abilities. I'm saying it would take an over haul of all scale-able mitigating abilities : all healing, not just BOL, all magicka based shields, not just Hardened Ward. I'm also recommending a change from BURST healing to moderate healing in favor of more mitigation for the Templar class so that healing is helpful but not the be-all-end-all of templar defense and group healing. I'm also asking for smarter healers, rather then dumber healing.

I've pointed out how I believe that healing has grown larger than it needs to be, and pointed to the battle spirit 50% nerf of healing when your healing players with 4k larger health pools as evidence of that. If healing were balanced properly it would not require a battle spirit nerf. It takes no less healing to heal players but DOES take more damage to kill MoB due to the way ZOS balanced PVE vs PVP.

The Sorc mitigation in PVP wouldn't have to change much at all depending how the devs rework balancing the skills and players choose to build. If they choose offense they will be more like a glass cannon rather then the iron cannon they are now. Being able to stack a stat that boost both Damage AND mitigation is simply not balanced. The same goes for Templars and BOL, and ALL classes and ALL healing.

So NB heals will be nerfed/balanced as well. As would Resto heals and Vigor. Does it really make sense that the more damage you can do the stronger your Vigor is? How is that balanced? There is no real check to Damage currently.

Yes this would take a bunch of changes that would require balancing across all classes and many skills, but it would be more balanced. I would say the Sorc has suffered little for Hardened Ward, which clear doesn't need to be so larger in PVE on a DD build. However the Templar has been nerfed out of their very identity. Stand Your Ground.

The original post would still be viable in this current build if they ignore the parts about scaling. Self heal or Party heal. The reason they limited BOL (and other heals) from 3 to 2 is not because dungeons healing is to easy, as they claim. They could have just reduced the heals by 1/3 if that was the case. It was to limit checks in PVP to improve lag. Smart heals require selecting the lowest health targets in the AOE. Subtracting it by 1 when there's multiple Templar spamming the crap out of it is one way of limiting it.

There were many other ways to limit its casting with out effecting PVE. I like increasing its cost, with reduction on legit healing (under 45% health). I think it will make Templars think about hitting the skill rather then just spamming away. Its more "cheeze" then WB or any other skill in the game in its current state. Healing spring is sorta like this but based on number of allies healed rather then the need to heal.

I can cast BOL 27 times before running out of magicka with my old v13-14 gear with a single cast of Rune Focus and Restoring Aura on a Bosmer Templar (only 2200 regen 5-1-1 armor). Breton/Almer with 7 light with some changes to CP would be even worse. If you double or triple the cost when its not needed then when I tested in the same way I'd get off at best 1/2 or 2/3 less casts and it will make me think about casting the skill but not fear casting it when someone actually needs it at all. Templar still needs a legit self heal maybe some mitigation but for the power of healing mitigation is removed.

Essiaga · March 2016

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

lol nope.

i took honour the dead because of the nerf and even with only one I healed myself plenty but also could save others. some builds have to rely heavily on healing ward to heal and its the exact same way.
LTP issue.
do not approve.
i wouldnt complain master ritualist was revamped to be a more self oriented passive, but to suggest its not helpful is completely insane, its VERY good for pvp.

I find it silly to have to equip and depend on resto staff for self heals and shield when the class I'm playing has both. No other class suffers these flaws. Even the DK gets more use from igneous Shields, and their Battle Nerfed self heal, while weak, is not a roll of the dice. Of course the magicka regen from Resto heavy attacks is super useful as well since Templar lacks regen and is supposed to heal the battlefield in hopes of a self heal.

If you're in or running along side a group with a few healers its not an issue cause everyone is healing everyone else. If you're in a small group or solo and there are not other healers around and your heals are going elsewhere it's got nothing to do with L2P. If I fail to hit the button fine. I'm not a top tier PVPer but limited mechanics are ... limited. Breaking the skills up eliminates accident random healing and makes it a choice rather then a chance to heal self or heal others.

Are you happy with Healing Ritual? ZOS is going to keep trying to make it more useful and BOL less useful. I think this is a solid way to fix 3-4 issues.

As for the Rezing passive ... Its better then say a harvesting passive but it's a crap 4th tier passive that needs to benefit the class. Improved resing AND something else ... sure. Resing OR something else? Something else please.

The issue also is not exclusive to PVP.

It absolutely is a LTP issue. this is how the game currently works, you simply HAVE to learn to play while lobbying to make it better for yourself.

Nope. It's statment about some issue. Not a plea to make me better or nerfs someone else. It's a suggestion to fix several issues that have been complained about around the community and that I've found myself.

I'm in no way saying that I don't make every attempt at being competitive (even if it's silly) as long as I still find it fun. I'm simply saying that these things are silly and lobbying for ZOS to rethink the silliness. I'm in no way a PVP giant. I do ok and try to have fun doing it, but not having a reliable class heals in the situations I find my self in when its all the class is know for is outrages, especially when they removed or nerfed pretty much all the defensive skills in the class. I know most people run in groups with many random heals flying around. I find my self the lone 'healer' a lot due to the times that I play. So its more of an issue for me then for many but that's not to say it isn't a limitation that in the skill that I noticed A LOT in my hour of PVPing.

I'm not at all asking for buffs. In fact I'm calling for nerfs for the most part. Even Wrobel admitted they just made skills to be cool. Now its time to revisit some of the odd things they did and fix the issues they made and healing and BoL has created a lot of issues.

And aren't you the guy that created the WB nerf thread? L2P man.

well i disagree. i still find honor the dead the most effective self heal and i have toons in all classes. thats why i think, you lobying what makes it better for yourself, your opinion your playstyle. pvp wise i like that bol is not as spammable, ballgroups have less reliable non-strategic smart heals, forcing them to stack more at times making them more bomable.
its a pity for pve content but you have to admit it made so much stuff faceroll without needing as many tactics. sorry i jumped on the ltp train so fast but really you have to look at the good it does too.

yes i started a thread about how wb has some imbalance being cheap/spamable damage/cc/buff all in one and that it needs to be looked at becuase there arnt really any onther moves in the catagory and i wanted it adjusted OR bring some other moves up(but i fundamentally think that the spamable dps move should not contain hard CC and making more wb type moves would be bad for the game, thats my opinion.) and i dont need to ltp i always have immovable pots. dosent mean everything is perfectly balanced
however balancing the cp to give physical resist thats on par with magica resist has helped balance it a lot.

When it hits you I would agree it is the most effective, but not the most reliable. So you find HtD or BoL more useful then Hardened Ward? A shield is ultimately better the a heal. Its a pre-heal that takes less damage and it doesn't vary at all. I'm in no way saying BOL is weak. I'm saying its not as reliable, and more limiting and OP heals have cost the templar all Mitigation skills.

BoL is no more or less spammable. It requires more spamming if you need to heal more people which means healer is spending more GCD on BOL now then prior to the TG. It's simply one less application of a heal when doing checks. I've pointed out this was just the most simple and fastest way to address the skill.

I would say Dragon's Blood was the mostt balanced, most reliable, and second most effective self heal but battle spirit screws up its effectiveness in PVP. Now its just weak and reliable at the same cost.

Obviously I want the class I pick to fit my preferred play style, which is what the class was originally and currently the play style does not exist in ESO. I'm looking for a separation from DPS and mitigation so that Glass Cannon's can actual exists, instead of having Magicka increase damage, shield, and heals or Weapon damage increase WB and Vigor. I'm looking for more intelligent game design, that balances the classes and player builds. To have to L2P the right way doesn't mean it's fun for all. Options make more people happy. Which is why BK serves Hot Dogs now.

I want less powerful heals and more self reliance out of all players. Healing is clearly OP as it is Battle Spirit nerfed, which effects the Templar and DK quite a bit ... The 2 'Stand Your Ground' classes (my preferred play style) and the original 1vX classes are the most effected by Battle Spirit and heal/shields/damage being based on Max Magicka, etc. They didn't DPS as well as they do now, but they mitigated WAY better and had solid AOE so they could pick away it their attackers. They're survival was OP at the time, but now its so underwhelming.

I want Battle Spirit gone and mitigation to be returned to the Templar. If I wanted to be the best DPS I'd have played Sorc or NB. Now I'm the best at thing i desire least (DPS) and the worst at what I desire the most (mitigation). The class is not at all what I signed up for and invest so much time to build, and the play style really doesn't exist any longer.

I posted in your WB thread and I don't disagree with you that the 2 CC are harsh. Stam needs more options before WB should be addressed. You asked for something you feel was outside of balance, and so am I. I'm suggesting things I think will improve the game for almost everyone, and that definitely includes me and hopefully includes you. If you like to be stronger DPS and weaker mitigation my system wouldn't take that option from you. You could be a class cannon, and i could be a tank, and person who wants to spam BOL endlessly could do that as well and everything we lack wouldn't be crap, but would be checked. Glass cannon should mean your shields and heals are not optimal though. That's not at all balanced.

Wouldn't you like to have Sun Shield no longer Battle nerfed or many of the nerfed skills un-nerfed by having Healing and magicka shields balanced? Every change is seen as nerf unless its CLEARLY a buff until we test it out for ourselves.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · March 2016

i disagree with your premise that a shield is better than a heal, sure you are crit resistant, but cp and impen are good. do i want to wait to have really low health for a 10k shield or a 12k heal no matter my health. you still get execute damage through a shield. AND healing ward is EXACTLY THE SAME it is a smart shield and does not hit you for sure.

healers cant bol forever. ball groups cant spam it for 10 min strait, and haveing 25% less heal per cast is not nothing. fact: this has an effect on the game.

every class and build have access to some self heal/group heal. if a group decides that they want healer 100% spamming and nobody maintaing themselvs thats their choice. there is no reason people cant CHOOSE to slot things that increase group hps the option is there...
stam dps has super powerful vigor, 5 or 6 of them cast it thats a lot of group heals.

as for mitigation, templars arnt best BUT go all impen and put 50 into the anti-crit cp, use immovable pots instead of tripots. its really not that bad. for real. im doing very well, currently templars are in the best place they have been since blazing shield became unusable.

it kanda sucks if I have to spam heal 4 times to get it but if I survive and you save 4 people is it really that bad...?
honestly i prefer it to an ONLY self heal then i cant choose to save the person beside me

over all your suggestions just do too much and they would have to overhaul all classes to balance all that.

crislevin · March 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

The Sorc mitigation in PVP wouldn't have to change much at all depending how the devs rework balancing the skills and players choose to build. If they choose offense they will be more like a glass cannon rather then the iron cannon they are now. Being able to stack a stat that boost both Damage AND mitigation is simply not balanced. The same goes for Templars and BOL, and ALL classes and ALL healing.

I assume you are talking about bound aegis? the armour it adds is quite pathetic, I doubt any sorc would worry about losing that part of the skill.

Glass cannon doesn't mean one-shot dead cannon. Call it iron if you must, fact is the dps is so ridiculous right now, sorc has no place in pvp without a decent shield.

I can cast BOL 27 times before running out of magicka with my old v13-14 gear with a single cast of Rune Focus and Restoring Aura on a Bosmer Templar (only 2200 regen 5-1-1 armor). Breton/Almer with 7 light with some changes to CP would be even worse. If you double or triple the cost when its not needed then when I tested in the same way I'd get off at best 1/2 or 2/3 less casts and it will make me think about casting the skill but not fear casting it when someone actually needs it at all. Templar still needs a legit self heal maybe some mitigation but for the power of healing mitigation is removed.

You really need to look at "average" players, casting 27 BOL in a roll is not a feast most templars can do.

Essiaga · March 2016

I assume you are talking about bound aegis? the armour it adds is quite pathetic, I doubt any sorc would worry about losing that part of the skill.

Glass cannon doesn't mean one-shot dead cannon. Call it iron if you must, fact is the dps is so ridiculous right now, sorc has no place in pvp without a decent shield.

We were discussing a change to how Magicka shields/healing are scaled. Stacking magicka increases damage, healing, and shields and i believe this lacks balance. If you want to do Max damage it should effect your mitigation a lot. I don't believe i referred to bound at all, but if they scale Ward correctly you'll still have say a 8k shield on max DPS, were a max mitigation could be 14k but the DPS will also do similar but OPPOSITE, which is balance IMO.

Bound does increase magicka and that increases shields ... and increase Damage and Healing ... and the ward/resolve from it totally secondary (I agree) but still helps. Currently a Sorc can max out damage and still have very solid shields, better then all others classes by far. I'm saying there is NO true glass cannon with Sorcs because their shields are still superior to all other classes and their heals (which in class are limited, but with resto) are more powerful.

Another issues is Resolve/Ward doesn't scale, but Brutality/Sorcery/Berserk are all % increases which means it benefits to stack damage and Magicka gives damage. Other class shields are worthless because there is not as much benefit of stacking health and yet they are still Battle nerfed and I believe the reason for the nerf is because in PVE Ward is 22k on min/max DD and smaller on a tank with more health, and stamina and less magicka and I don't think that makes sense at all. Nor do I think it makes sense that when weapon damage is Min/Maxed Vigor is arguably the best self heal in the game on a glass cannon build. Glass is weak and cannons take a while to reload. Low mit, low regen, max damage.

I can cast BOL 27 times before running out of magicka with my old v13-14 gear with a single cast of Rune Focus and Restoring Aura on a Bosmer Templar (only 2200 regen 5-1-1 armor). Breton/Almer with 7 light with some changes to CP would be even worse. If you double or triple the cost when its not needed then when I tested in the same way I'd get off at best 1/2 or 2/3 less casts and it will make me think about casting the skill but not fear casting it when someone actually needs it at all. Templar still needs a legit self heal maybe some mitigation but for the power of healing mitigation is removed.

You really need to look at "average" players, casting 27 BOL in a roll is not a feast most templars can do.

I'm below average player with my healing build and this NOT the build I use in PVP.

I know with different options to make offense more viable I would do less, but as far as dedicated healing I have ZERO in blessing and have no issues with the stength of my heals in PVE at all. Blessing heals to over come Battle Spirit nerf of heals. This is with (5) v13-14 purple Warlock and Healer on a Bosmer with 380cp standing still. If you take Archmage, Lich, Seducer V16 gold, Altmer/Breton at 501cp you'll do better. I should be able to push that into the 30s. I don't have great spell damage, but that's how a healer should be since healing again is so strong.

I think I can do 15-17 with Kagranac, Magnus/Seducer, Will Power (I moved that gear to my another toon since i parked the Templar) but if your running with a zerg Rune will fall away faster, etc. Its possible or feasible, though less likely. Most Templars will want to bring more damage, AND their healing will be more powerful then mine but they'll be able to spam less. SO Damage = Powerful heals, which isn't balanced.

In the rant from Fengrush he mentions the Templar he runs with which is better geared then mine and I think he said 27 BOL as well, with stronger heals. With Kagranac 5pc bonus not benefiting Temlpar as much I wouldn't be surprised to see zerg healers switching to something more like this.

cschwingeb14_ESO · March 2016

All of your ideas are balance breaking and would overpower the Templar class to a huge degree. I don't care to point them all out, but here's an example:

Scaling the power of a skill to regen means you no longer have to stack anything but regen to have massive return on that ability per use, and the ability to spam it to your heart's content. Just no.

Autolycus · March 2016

I think it's fine the way it is. I very rarely have a BoL hit the wrong target. This is just smart healing in a nutshell, and that's not changing anytime soon. It is extremely unlikely that ZOS will revamp the entire healing system to accommodate a few people who can't seem to hit themselves with a BoL, especially when most people don't seem to have a problem.

This is a very low priority QoL improvement. Cauterize (DK heal) can't target the caster; it's purely a group heal, and frankly it's not as great as you think it will be; the skill is fantastic, and receiving none of the benefit as the caster when smart healing should prioritize the caster doesn't make a lot of sense, and forces DK healers to slot at least one other skill they may not have had to use, just to ensure they can heal themselves too. Of course, you're proposing additional changes to offset that limitation, so it's a bit different for you.

Essiaga · March 2016

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

i disagree with your premise that a shield is better than a heal, sure you are crit resistant, but cp and impen are good. do i want to wait to have really low health for a 10k shield or a 12k heal no matter my health. you still get execute damage through a shield. AND healing ward is EXACTLY THE SAME it is a smart shield and does not hit you for sure.

You refereed to your other characters of other classes. Hardened vs BOL. Use Allied Ward and you always have a shield.

You hit a button and don't know whats going to happen or you hit a button and know whats going to happen ... it's usually better to know. Shields are better then heals because heals vary a ton. the depend on where your standing, what buffs you have up, what weapons your using, how low health you are, how low health others are ... Sheild are just shields. Now healing removes you from retreating maneuvers but shields don't effect it. I can go on but won't.

I'm not saying healing is weak. I'm also not saying its an either or option either (equip a resto staff), but Ward is better for the caster then BoL. Now for a party, obviously BoL is better cause it effects more people, as does Igneous shields but we rarely mention it.

Pointing out impen and and CP, etc ... isn't pointing out Templar strengths. Your pointing out how everyone mitigates. Though they ways you are pointing out are sacrifices (mit for damage) which is what I want across the board.

As a Templar you could use allied ward for the shield and heal with BoL, but no one things we should be using the shield we have in class. Silly.

healers cant bol forever. ball groups cant spam it for 10 min strait, and haveing 25% less heal per cast is not nothing. fact: this has an effect on the game.

Its not 25% less heal. It's 33% less players healed, but for the same or better. Its less overall healing but it could have been 33% less heal across 3 instead, or many other variations. Sure it has an effect on the game, and on the class its self. Your 1/3 less likely to get your heal. Do you think BoL will be used LESS now? I believe you'll be using it more and with 1 sec GCD it means it will be even more your identity for its unreliable self heal and 2 person limit. It will be spammed more because it has to be to get the same out of it. They should have reduced the cast time or added some effect on the caster such as a heal or a damage shield, etc.

every class and build have access to some self heal/group heal. if a group decides that they want healer 100% spamming and nobody maintaing themselvs thats their choice. there is no reason people cant CHOOSE to slot things that increase group hps the option is there...

The reason is Leader Boards and player inpatients. If you pugged with someone pulling 10k dps you'd kick him. If you group with a healer not running drain you'd ask him to run drain, or NEVER run with him again. It is the standard and anyone not meeting the standard is sub par. You would have to build for your group, which means running only with those people all the time. Or you play to the standard and the standard is to Min/Max.

stam dps has super powerful vigor, 5 or 6 of them cast it thats a lot of group heals.

Which is why you can't just nerf BoL ... you have to address how healing is done. A glass cannon stam build with Vigor has arguably a better self heal then BoL. It hits them every time and it's first heal may or may not be lower but at least it is there and EVERY stam build can access it. Vigor should be a stamplar skill. VMSA is the only place Vigor is really a requirement. NB are beast because of Vigor ontop of amazing class skills. Rally easily ticks for as much as Cleansing Ritual.

If you nerf just Ward and remove battle spirt nerf then healing ward and harness would be 50% stronger. All magicka shields need addressed. Not to make them weaker, but to balance them so they are still strong but the current health based shields are worth using.

as for mitigation, templars arnt best BUT go all impen and put 50 into the anti-crit cp, use immovable pots instead of tripots. its really not that bad. for real. im doing very well, currently templars are in the best place they have been since blazing shield became unusable.

If you sighting impen, etc as the reason then everyone is in that place. Templar DPS has improved with the loss of mitigation. They don't have the same identity as they used to. I don't have all impen though. I think I've got impen on the small pieces only and I use Allied Ward and hope to get off a BoL, but I haven't PVP on my templar much since Dec.

it kanda sucks if I have to spam heal 4 times to get it but if I survive and you save 4 people is it really that bad...?
honestly i prefer it to an ONLY self heal then i cant choose to save the person beside me

is it really bad? It's Kraft ... i'll address it later.

I'm not suggestion we have NO party heal. We'd have a self heal ... and party heal. Rushed Ceremony would be self. Healing RItual would be replaced with BOL and be party only.

It would mean people like me would have the option of self or others but not both in one, but still both on the bar if you so choose. Healing with BOL currently makes you an accidental/incidental healing God, everyone is good at it. BOL currently is like Kraft. It's the Cheeziest. It takes no skill to select BOL. You got a better chance at a self heal with Blessing of Restoration/Combat Prayer ... but then whats the point of being a Templar? Might as well just play my NB. I've got more survival options with cloak, teleport, double take ... then a templar. Templar just has a heal that reaches farther, but then you have Siphon abilities ... My magNB is only 45 and I've mostly just been passing time leveling him in PVE, but if impen, etc with resto for shield are my option then I don't see how it will be any harder to stay alive, with those options and more.

over all your suggestions just do too much and they would have to overhaul all classes to balance all that.

At least balance would be possible. Instead Ward is OP, which nerfs shields, healing is OP and nerfed for NO REASON since your still healing players on with 4k more health. ZOS did bad. I think it will take 'too much' for them to fix it and they'll need to do it in a similar way as I'm describing, dps and mit/heals scaling of completely different stats.

Surely not "all" of my suggestions are "to much". There are more then a few that could easily work with in the current systems. 1)Insta-self heal 2)Insta-ally only heal ... High cost of party heal unless under 45% health to curve spamming ... i think would be great even with out changing how party healing scales. Self heal can be balanced to allow Templar to have more mitigation skills back that would benefit magicka and stam builds and make for more interesting game play IMO.

Essiaga · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

I think it's fine the way it is. I very rarely have a BoL hit the wrong target. This is just smart healing in a nutshell, and that's not changing anytime soon. It is extremely unlikely that ZOS will revamp the entire healing system to accommodate a few people who can't seem to hit themselves with a BoL, especially when most people don't seem to have a problem.

This is a very low priority QoL improvement. Cauterize (DK heal) can't target the caster; it's purely a group heal, and frankly it's not as great as you think it will be; the skill is fantastic, and receiving none of the benefit as the caster when smart healing should prioritize the caster doesn't make a lot of sense, and forces DK healers to slot at least one other skill they may not have had to use, just to ensure they can heal themselves too. Of course, you're proposing additional changes to offset that limitation, so it's a bit different for you.

Very low priority ... Its several issues. 1. unreliable self heal. 2. cheezy easy healing 3. incidental/accidental heals 4. kill hard, heal hard = no sacrifice. 5. Nothing for stamplars in class (especially compared to DK and NB) 6. Vigor gets better the harder you hit 7) Healing Springs is LARGELY hated ...

Balancing the way skills work should have been priority number 1 pre-launch and the ultimate goal of developer every major update. It is a ton of work and only effects PVP so it is low priority to ZOS.

ICauterize is a party healing skill that's a party buff as well. It has a specific use (party healing). If you don't want to heal others you don't have to. Templars ... stuck. DK also have Dragons Blood (though battle nerfed), and several other self heals (Inhale, Breath, Searing) which I think are GREAT ways to do it. You want to heal others, slot this. You want to heal self, slot these. Option are NICE. Igneous shields applies to SELF AND others.

Templar in PVP is probably using Resto for shield, BOL hoping for the bigger heal, Jabs for some HoT, and no where NEAR the options DK has for mitigation (Scales, Spike, Ults), CC, AOE, and guaranteed self healing. Stam DK is awesome because of the mitigation (and Physical Ult), Stamplars ... do great damage. Stamplar gets no healing (the thing Templar are KNOWN for) from its class. Now they have Mending, like the DK have had. Vigor better then Restoring Light line, rally better then Cleansing ritual accept for purifying. It's pathetic that this is the way the game is balanced because healing is OP.

There's no identity in the Templar class. Its skills are to limited and wonky. With cast times and channels and "what ifs". I don't care if its 2% of the time you don't get your heal. Its probably 25% of the time you don't get the bigger heal you needed and have to cast it again. That's 27% of the (completely made up) time.

Either way its not something ANY other class has to deal with. For me as a low pop player to get screwed because of who's around me is just silly. Healing Ward can be morphed to be a self and ally shield, or chance at shield and heal. BOL has no such morph.

Blinding Flashes had to go cause miss chance felt bad to others ... but BOL miss chance is OK.

Also battle spirit needs to go.

Papa_Hunt · March 2016

Wait, it's possible to not get your own BoL?

Autolycus · March 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

I think it's fine the way it is. I very rarely have a BoL hit the wrong target. This is just smart healing in a nutshell, and that's not changing anytime soon. It is extremely unlikely that ZOS will revamp the entire healing system to accommodate a few people who can't seem to hit themselves with a BoL, especially when most people don't seem to have a problem.

This is a very low priority QoL improvement. Cauterize (DK heal) can't target the caster; it's purely a group heal, and frankly it's not as great as you think it will be; the skill is fantastic, and receiving none of the benefit as the caster when smart healing should prioritize the caster doesn't make a lot of sense, and forces DK healers to slot at least one other skill they may not have had to use, just to ensure they can heal themselves too. Of course, you're proposing additional changes to offset that limitation, so it's a bit different for you.

Very low priority ... Its several issues. 1. unreliable self heal. 2. cheezy easy healing 3. incidental/accidental heals 4. kill hard, heal hard = no sacrifice. 5. Nothing for stamplars in class (especially compared to DK and NB) 6. Vigor gets better the harder you hit 7) Healing Springs is LARGELY hated ...

Balancing the way skills work should have been priority number 1 pre-launch and the ultimate goal of developer every major update. It is a ton of work and only effects PVP so it is low priority to ZOS.

ICauterize is a party healing skill that's a party buff as well. It has a specific use (party healing). If you don't want to heal others you don't have to. Templars ... stuck. DK also have Dragons Blood (though battle nerfed), and several other self heals (Inhale, Breath, Searing) which I think are GREAT ways to do it. You want to heal others, slot this. You want to heal self, slot these. Option are NICE. Igneous shields applies to SELF AND others.

Templar in PVP is probably using Resto for shield, BOL hoping for the bigger heal, Jabs for some HoT, and no where NEAR the options DK has for mitigation (Scales, Spike, Ults), CC, AOE, and guaranteed self healing. Stam DK is awesome because of the mitigation (and Physical Ult), Stamplars ... do great damage. Stamplar gets no healing (the thing Templar are KNOWN for) from its class. Now they have Mending, like the DK have had. Vigor better then Restoring Light line, rally better then Cleansing ritual accept for purifying. It's pathetic that this is the way the game is balanced because healing is OP.

There's no identity in the Templar class. Its skills are to limited and wonky. With cast times and channels and "what ifs". I don't care if its 2% of the time you don't get your heal. Its probably 25% of the time you don't get the bigger heal you needed and have to cast it again. That's 27% of the (completely made up) time.

Either way its not something ANY other class has to deal with. For me as a low pop player to get screwed because of who's around me is just silly. Healing Ward can be morphed to be a self and ally shield, or chance at shield and heal. BOL has no such morph.

Blinding Flashes had to go cause miss chance felt bad to others ... but BOL miss chance is OK.

Also battle spirit needs to go.

So I'm not really disagreeing or agreeing with you on these points, because many of them have merit and are worth consideration. I'm a bit confused here, though. Were you offering a rebuttal to what I said, or simply quoting me and providing further insight? It reads a bit like an argument, but it really seems we agree on pretty much everything mentioned.

My point here is not that smart healing is a perfect system, or that it should stay, or anything to that effect, really. What I was getting at is that on rare occasions, my BoL doesn't hit who I want it to, but in the vast majority of cases, it does. Now, there are two contexts for this statement, one for pve, and one for pvp. In PvP, BoL does hit unintended (accidental) targets much more frequently. While I won't sit here and pretend like it's not frustrating to dump the magicka onto some random person rather than my group members, it really doesn't happen all that often. In part, I feel that experience offsets a great deal of the "accidental" smart heals, but there are still times where it just happens.

I've been healing on a DK for over a year now, so I'm well aware of the potential they have. I'm not here to boast numbers, but my DK healer can run with the best of templar healers, and I've successfully run him through everything to-date (except for vMoL, which we are obviously still working on, but all other trials including hardmodes, etc). Taking into account my own testing and theorycrafting on both DKs and Temps, I can honestly say that, in terms of viability and raw healing potential, they're both on pretty level playing fields.

There is a lot of this "BoL sucks now, you shouldn't use it" and "templars can't heal now, because 5% reduction to major mending" but imho these are just exaggerations, in most cases they are used to conceal an unwillingness or inability to overcome new hurdles. Don't get me wrong, I have my own beef with some of these changes too (it's not like we aren't still on the same side here), but Templars are very, very far away from being ineffective healers in either pvp or pve, and BoL is far from useless.

The final point I wanted to touch on is really more of a reiteration. I noted the inability to self-heal with Cauterize like Templs can do with BoL. Take it from someone who has a very high level of experience with DK healers: the ability to target oneself with a strong burst heal is a very useful and positive feature of the skill. Maybe some people aren't aware of this yet, but Cauterize always casts the first heal when the ability is refreshed. This means that Cauterize can be spammed and every single cast of the skill is accompanied with a burst heal. My Cauterize crits for about 13-14k on dps, and as high as 18k on tanks. It's an incredibly powerful, low-cost, spammable heal, but I can't use it on myself (unlike BoL, which can easily crit for 20k+ on oneself).

Note please that I'm not saying Cauterize should be able to target the caster, as I haven't done the appropriate analysis to determine if this would be a balanced change. Rather, I am simply pointing out that removing the self-heal potential from BoL would be a significant reduction to the overall utility of the skill. Without BoL, you would be casting more and more wards and springs, which raises another question: Why do so many people hate Healing Springs?

c.p.garrett1993_ESO · March 2016

Yeah, having separate skills for self/ group healing would be fantastic. I'm wanting to try to work out a good tank/ heal hybrid, a dedicated self-heal would be great when tanking and being able to switch off to a group heal when needed would be perfect.

FeaR Turbo · March 2016

Honestly guys, if they could separate changes made between PVE and PVP would fix a TON of things.

Jumper45 · March 2016

Overhealing ... ALOT of Overhealing. You'll be gimping your HPS. No fully easy solution to back off from that direction. For example if youre at 50% hp or 75% hp the heal can crit or maybe even normal and just fall off into overhealing. Atleast with the pre nerf the heals were dropped by 50% so even if it was a crit it would rarly overheal. And ofcourse the main issue with multi target hitting heals is if you only need to heal 1 person the other targets will also fall off into overhealing. Long story short all the heals in the game cause overhealing and its not something you want ever. It will skew all your numbers and would be complete RNG situational based.

Thats why BOL was pretty great before and was the most effective heal because it was designed to not exactly overheal by spreading the full amount over several people. Does Overhealing matter? Yeah sure. But it also depends on your magicka regen. If you are making more then youre spending then its OK to overheal in all cases. If you arnt then you are raising your costs etc. For example you'll have to cast the spell twice at 3k Magicka vs casting it once and youve now probly pushed your healing into overhealing to get the same job done and costed you twice as much.

a1i3nz · March 2016

Wait a second, breath of life isn't guaranteed to heal tha caster anymore? Please tell me this isn't so..
Like really I need to know