PvE guards again...

strikeback1247 · March 2016

Lord wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

I agree.
I hope that someday guards will be killable.
The fact they are unkillable isn't even lore wise.
How can a mere guard defeat heroes of great renown with the slightest effort ?

They should be hard to kill(2 bars of difficulty) with 150k-300k health, veteran 16 group bosses.
An experienced and skilled player should be able to solo one of them, but it will be easier to defeat in a small group.
It could be exploited so a short respawn time and reinforcement sounds like a good solution.

The fact that guards are unkillable is one of the main reasons, people refrain from breaking the law.
Invincible guards is just too much of a threat, so the fear of breaking the law is too great.

No way they should be soloable. They should be like a trial boss to be balanced. Otherwise all the guards will just be dead 24/7.

FortheloveofKrist · March 2016

There are consequences for murder. For example, I calculated the bounty reduction rate a while ago at about 30k each day. I maxed my Legerdemain and amassed a bounty of 1.8 million gold. Then the patch came out and it seems ZoS changed the reduction rate. Now my bounty is taking forever to go down.

Guess my toon is now a committed criminal. Oh well, guess I'll go kill a few more Tamrelians.

LordTareq · March 2016

Imho, a single guard should be killable. It should be a fairly tough fight (medium world boss level) but doable with good gear/skills. However, once you killed a guard, you should get a guard killer debuff that will remain until you have cleared your bounty. Any guard that spots a character with the guard killer debuff will attack him plus allert other nearby guards. In addition, a guard hitting or being hit by a character with the guard killer debuff will gain a 100% damage resistance (i.e. become immortal). This is to prevent abuse by larger groups killing all guards.

Essentially what such a system would allow you to do is fight your way out of 1 'mistake'. But after that you are in the same position as you are now with immortal guards, to prevent abuse. The point of this all would mostly be immersion. It just feels wrong not being able to kill a guard.

Teridaxus · March 2016

The moment guards are mortal, all npcs will be slaughtered in cities and people will loot every single house.
Image some newbies running to a quest npc while walking thought the corpse piles of normal npcs everywhere while a group of vet 16 are hunting down the last alive ones.

CP5 · March 2016

The point of unkillable guards is to make getting caught matter. We killed armies of daedra, undead, other players, exc. and if guards were included that would make the whole concept of being a 'thief' a joke. They make the player fear, or at least take notice of them. Getting caught matters and it makes players run. Make them killable and 1, they will always be dead and 2, where is the 'suspense' of getting caught when you can just turn around and kill them? They are a threat, and that's the point.

Katahdin · March 2016

Whatzituyah wrote: »

BalgusFlinn wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think it would be too easy to cheese the justice system if guards could be killed. What would be consequences of killing a guard? Higher bounty? Who would collect it? Another guard? Just kill that guard, too. Send multiple guards? Kill them all. Send so many guards you cannot defeat them alone? Bring in guild mates to help kill them all. Bring in so many guards that no player group, no matter how big, can kill them? At that point, you have made both yourself and developers jump through a lot of hoops to just end up right back where we started - don't get caught, pay your bounty, or flee.

Make it so you cannot bank/vendor/assistant. There you go, no more cheese. Kill a guard, no bank for you, until your heat goes down. Unkillable guard, are u kidding me, i took out MOLAG BAL, FOR PEATS SAKE! Should have just sent the guards in i guess!

My argument exactly but it is a game.

You were under the influence of the ritual where someone's soul got sacrificed to give you the power to take out Molag Bal. It was a temporary effect, you returned to your normal self afterwards.

Also, I'd heard that a group of like 50 people with v14s (pre v16) ganged up on a guard and killed him. Not sure if it's true but I'd love to try it

FleetwoodSmack · March 2016

CP5 wrote: »

The point of unkillable guards is to make getting caught matter. We killed armies of daedra, undead, other players, exc. and if guards were included that would make the whole concept of being a 'thief' a joke. They make the player fear, or at least take notice of them. Getting caught matters and it makes players run. Make them killable and 1, they will always be dead and 2, where is the 'suspense' of getting caught when you can just turn around and kill them? They are a threat, and that's the point.

"STOP YOU CRIMINAL SCUM! I seen you tried to talk to that guild trader and took a tomato instead! PAY THE FINE!"

"/cry"

Whatzituyah · March 2016

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The point of unkillable guards is to make getting caught matter. We killed armies of daedra, undead, other players, exc. and if guards were included that would make the whole concept of being a 'thief' a joke. They make the player fear, or at least take notice of them. Getting caught matters and it makes players run. Make them killable and 1, they will always be dead and 2, where is the 'suspense' of getting caught when you can just turn around and kill them? They are a threat, and that's the point.

"STOP YOU CRIMINAL SCUM! I seen you tried to talk to that guild trader and took a tomato instead! PAY THE FINE!"

"/cry"

Me a whole lot buddy luckily most of the time I escape.

FleetwoodSmack · March 2016

Whatzituyah wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The point of unkillable guards is to make getting caught matter. We killed armies of daedra, undead, other players, exc. and if guards were included that would make the whole concept of being a 'thief' a joke. They make the player fear, or at least take notice of them. Getting caught matters and it makes players run. Make them killable and 1, they will always be dead and 2, where is the 'suspense' of getting caught when you can just turn around and kill them? They are a threat, and that's the point.

"STOP YOU CRIMINAL SCUM! I seen you tried to talk to that guild trader and took a tomato instead! PAY THE FINE!"

"/cry"

Me a whole lot buddy luckily most of the time I escape.

I red-eyed it for 24 hours because I had meetings at an odd hour that I wasn't used to being up at (I usually work nights), SO... That screenshot I posted earlier was my escapades. Ended up racking my bounty up around 38k. I was sleep deprived and I was proud the next time I got to play after a full night's rest. But I was killing one NPC over and over and then teasing the guard. Apparently they don't like frags so much because they just turn around and shoot me right in the face with a crossbow. I still had fun with it though. People were like "NO! Indy, you'll regret this in the morning!" Next day, logged in and just smiiiiiled. I kind of like not being able to kill them because I reeeeeeally got the hang on swapping bars with a sorc efficiently doing that. And I waited that whole bounty out. Didn't pay a dime to get rid of it.

Egonieser · March 2016

Because this is a MMO, it's not a single player game where you can play the way you find fit by your personal preference.
MMO's have and will always have artificial "limits" (in this case - unkillable guards) and other NPC's because... It's a MMO - the game's ecosystem needs to be balanced to avoid constant exploitation which would in turn hurt other people's gameplay.

And if you ask how would that ruin it for people? Simple - dead guards - no worry about bounty - no bounty - people can freely loot and kill anything everywhere and never get cought and punished (which is a gold-sink to control the money flow in-game, read above my previous statement) - more money flooded into the market - which in turn starts to degrade the economy and cause inflation. And don't tell me that it doesn't - thieving is one of the quickest ways to earn money if done right. But if requires skill - why? Because of the guards. No guards? Then everyone will be doing it because there is no penalty and that's saying - Bye bye to the economy in a few months time.

People have to stop thinking with Skyrim-brain and accept that this is a MMO. MMO's have predefined rules which control the ecosystem and that is literally that. It really is that simple. Without these solid rules in place, people will find every possible way to exploit it and that would be devastating for the game - any MMO in fact, regardless what aspect of it.

So just learn to accept it, will make life easier to tolerate...

Whatzituyah · March 2016

Egonieser wrote: »

Because this is a MMO, it's not a single player game where you can play the way you find fit by your personal preference.
MMO's have and will always have artificial "limits" (in this case - unkillable guards) and other NPC's because... It's a MMO - the game's ecosystem needs to be balanced to avoid constant exploitation which would in turn hurt other people's gameplay.

And if you ask how would that ruin it for people? Simple - dead guards - no worry about bounty - no bounty - people can freely loot and kill anything everywhere and never get cought and punished (which is a gold-sink to control the money flow in-game, read above my previous statement) - more money flooded into the market - which in turn starts to degrade the economy and cause inflation. And don't tell me that it doesn't - thieving is one of the quickest ways to earn money if done right. But if requires skill - why? Because of the guards. No guards? Then everyone will be doing it because there is no penalty and that's saying - Bye bye to the economy in a few months time.

People have to stop thinking with Skyrim-brain and accept that this is a MMO. MMO's have predefined rules which control the ecosystem and that is literally that. It really is that simple. Without these solid rules in place, people will find every possible way to exploit it and that would be devastating for the game - any MMO in fact, regardless what aspect of it.

So just learn to accept it, will make life easier to tolerate...

Its hard to accept a guard is stronger than Molag Bal even if the players character had to go through a ritual to defeat Molag Bal because the guard wouldn't have too. Maybe if Maiq the Liar mentions this ile forgive it a little because hes a running joke anyway.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · March 2016

I understand that kill able guards will mean people that will them over and over again but that's to be expected. A no win situation is not good game design I want to kill all witnesses as a thift killing is not normal but I'm an Assassin that uses these skills to steal.

Players should have my opinions then running if taking magic damage for 100% their max health even in super tanks gear. You shouldn't have soldiers from Cyrodiil running from Paul Blork Mall cop.

idk · March 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

But "elite guards" and "guard reinforcements" seems to asking for a lot more activity and a lot more stress on servers just to end up right back where we started. At some point, you will be overwhelmed and have to flee to an outlaw refuge. Which is what happens now. Why go through all the trouble of delaying the inevitable? And it has to be inevitable that the bounty be enforced at some point. Otherwise it is just free gold and loot with no risk.

Said very well. Doesn't seem logical to go to all the trouble just to have the same mechanics.

Then again, some probably want the game to be a little less challenging.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · March 2016

CP5 wrote: »

The point of unkillable guards is to make getting caught matter. We killed armies of daedra, undead, other players, exc. and if guards were included that would make the whole concept of being a 'thief' a joke. They make the player fear, or at least take notice of them. Getting caught matters and it makes players run. Make them killable and 1, they will always be dead and 2, where is the 'suspense' of getting caught when you can just turn around and kill them? They are a threat, and that's the point.

This would make sense if I was stealing a good 1k or more. But you get a small valued items worth 30-650 gold item a hundred gold or so. That's a waste to have risk like being locked in a building with an unkillable guard and no way out you lose all stolen items plus pay your fair and armor repairs.

The risk to reward rate is too off running from a guard into other guard being CCed back to back. Keep the system if you plan on using the reward cause it's not worth it

Whatzituyah · March 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The point of unkillable guards is to make getting caught matter. We killed armies of daedra, undead, other players, exc. and if guards were included that would make the whole concept of being a 'thief' a joke. They make the player fear, or at least take notice of them. Getting caught matters and it makes players run. Make them killable and 1, they will always be dead and 2, where is the 'suspense' of getting caught when you can just turn around and kill them? They are a threat, and that's the point.

This would make sense if I was stealing a good 1k or more. But you get a small valued items worth 30-650 gold item a hundred gold or so. That's a waste to have risk like being locked in a building with an unkillable guard and no way out you lose all stolen items plus pay your fair and armor repairs.

The risk to reward rate is too off running from a guard into other guard being CCed back to back. Keep the system if you plan on using the reward cause it's not worth it

You know that this is true.