Please force my brain to understand that learning every teeny tiny bit about my class matters

Benie · March 2016

Going by the thread, I'm sure the popcorn will be plenty (and yes, I'm being serious with this thread). But I seriously need help. And not with my gear... but with my thinking. Typically, new players try to learn how to be better. And it seems all(as far as I know) of them succeed (or ever quit trying)... but me. I've been stuck as a "new player" for a very long time (even know my characters may not show it).
I don't do research on how to approach areas. I don't do research on my class (or anything of the sort). All I see are numbers, moves, and... wow. So much to remember. How do you guys do it?! Especially for people that have multiple characters. How in the heck do you guys seem to instantly know how to play your class?

But anyway, my brain is call "screw that". And it's been like that for pretty much any game I've ever played that requires quick reflexes (especially MMORPGs).
So with this handicap, how do I work with this? How can I get better, when my brain refuses to? Is there a way that will work? I beg of it. I'll even get a subscription for ESO+. Right now, I don't feel the devs deserve a penny (due to botched patches and bugs that should had been fixed during the beta, and not listening to their beta testers when they mention about said bugs).
I like ESOTU. It just sometimes frustrates me when I die. I'm supposed to have the "strongest class" in the game, yet I feel so squishy and die easily because I can't play my class right. I keep making stupid skill choices (obviously).

Dread_Guy · March 2016

I'm really sorry to say this, but this the definition of L2P. I dont think anyone can force you to think in any certain way. The best way to tackle your issues is just trial and error with your class. If something is working for you, keep doing it. If something isn't then replace it.

Johngo0036 · March 2016

@Benie - What you need to do first of all is realise like i had to that i will NEVER be the best.... or maybe you will.. i know i wont.........

When you say you play the strongest class in the game, is that a sorc or NB?

My main is a Sorcerer, i HATE playing her coz i suck at it....

I have 2 NB's(stam & Mag), I love playing them and do relatively well, Not top 10 well but i get loads of kills,

I have 2 Dk's that i also love playing, Just for the take flight Ultimate..... Most fun ultimate of the game.....

I have recently levelled a templar, magicka bld to vr16 and i am loving that as well....

What i am getting at is maybe the class just not for your playstyle....

Asmael · March 2016

Just reading your signature tells me everything that is wrong about your build:

(Main) Beniee - VR2 Nord Sorcerer (Destruction Staff/Bow)

A few simple questions to make you realize what is wrong:

What do you focus on? Stamina or magicka?
How do you spread your CPs?
Is your gear up-to-date?
What do your skill bars look like?

If you don't know whether you're stamina or magicka based means that something is very wrong with your stats. Hybrid builds are best left to very specific tanking builds, as every other build will be extremely underwhelming.
If you spread your CPs in many different damage types (less of an issue with this patch, but still), you should probably reconsider using some abilities.
This one is pretty simple, although gear quality matters. I know for a fact that I can't expect to kill anything on my crafter in PvP, who has mostly green non-set gear.
This is strongly linked to point (1), as using a mix of stamina and magicka damaging abilities means you'll perform pretty badly.

For a full analysis, detail your exact gear, abilities on both your bars, whether you are using drink / food, what mundus you use, and optionally your most important stats (regenerations, spell power / weapon damage) or even a screenshot of your character sheet.

EDIT: I should add that nothing is wrong with your brain, as a lot of people miss on things that seem obvious to a lot of competitive players.

eliisra · March 2016

Not everyone can learn and understand a class in a few hours. I know ESO in and out, but I have simliar problems when I start new MMO's. To much new information at once and I loose focus and feel like giving up.

But it's no point trying to force it, you need to actually want to learn how to play the class. You need curiosity.

Best is making your own learning system, something the brain recognised eventually. What type of learning does your brain prefer? My brain does not like being stressed, it needs stuff to be constantly visual and to practice, or I never get the hang of things. Sometimes I even place sticky notes on the side of my screen as a visual reminder. Like back when I started ESO I made my action bar always visual, even outside if combat, to remind me of the skills.

I think it's best to start small, check a guide, just get the most basic/mandatory 4-5 skills out of it. Play around with those and when confident you can do it without having to think, add a new skill and practice on including that. Eventually you know it all and likely get own ideas.

Another advice to learn a new class is having same type skills on the same hotkeys always. Like your AoE always goes on F(or whatever you prefer), heal always goes on 5, single target dmg on 2, CC or interrupt is on key Q and so on. With a system like that you can play a new class almost instantly, because you play it the same way you do your other character, only the name of the skill is different.

DephlaterMouse · March 2016

On every class I play (xbox) a few things are consistent. My gap closer, or opener is the Y button, my finisher is X, my buff is LB, and so on.

This means that I can pick any toon, and without looking at my skills and I can muddle through a PVE boss fight. It also lets me make use of muscle memory when quick reactions are important like in PVP.

Essentially I see a situation and I press the button instead of having to stop and remember the details of my abilities. I don't really need that information after I set it on my bar.

Hope it helps.

Nestor · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

I'm supposed to have the "strongest class" in the game, yet I feel so squishy and die easily because I can't play my class right. I keep making stupid skill choices (obviously).

Yep, you need to learn some things about the game. It helps to look at your skills functionally. Some skills are straight up damage, some are defense, some are recovery, some are buffs, some combine these things. Once you figure out the functions, then use the skills to provide that function. For example, start with a skill that damages and or buffs, then one that applies a defense, then one that damages (spam that one) then one that gives recovery. Figure out what rotation works for you and the way you play.

Once you start looking at things functionally, then you can apply skills to that function, but the rotation does not change, or change much. For example, the 5 key is always my recovery skill, 1 is always the opener that buffs other skills, 2 is the defense, 3 and 4 are the damage skills that I spam. This is true for every class I play. My only choices to worry about are what skills to serve what function before combat every happens. Once in combat its my rotation that I worry about.

Pick the functions based on how you want to play (ranged, melee, attack from sneak, dance around and fire off skills as you can whatever)

Once you get that figured out, then we can talk about gear.

Thelon · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

I don't do research on my class

Benie · March 2016

I like to thank you all for your supportive comments. I actually expected "Wow, what a noob" or "L2P scrub!" It's good to see some constructive criticism that's really helpful.

So, I'm a solo guy. I don't usually get along with other people ("then why are you playing an MMORPG?"... it's because Single Player games don't continue like an MMORPG does when you defeat the final boss). I don't like having to depend on others. Feel like if I can't handle a fight (that's designed to be solo'd) on my own, I'm weak and pathetic (and obviously I'm doing something wrong).

Anyway, my first char was a DK (well, because dragons). And seeing all the dragon-like abilities, really had my interest. I tried to go with a Dual Weld Sword/Bow setup and trying to go with a Stamina build (as I would be using up a lot of it). Yet, I also don't exactly like having enemies be in my face all the time.
Having played as a Hunter in WoW, I wanted a ranged class with a pet. And since the Sorcerer is the only class for that, I went with it. Somehow I got him up to VR2 (and I don't even know how. I feel like I don't deserve it). I guess it was the determination of completing the Single Player storyline.

I will say this. There's only 5 slots (10 if you count the weapon swapping). Yet you got all of these abilities (plus ones from the three NPC Guilds (Mages/Fighters/Undaunted)). Dunno if the Thieves Guild also has its own set of abilities. I'd assume so.
But one of my main complaints, is due to the five slots... how in the heck are you supposed to get any really good rotations? Two slots are already used to summon my pets, leaving me with only three. It's a huge balancing act.

As for my Sorcerer's stats, I'll admit using a bow is a stupid idea. I dunno... I really like bows. Having played as a Hunter in WoW, it just fells natural in my players' hands. Anyway, I'm using mainly a Magicka build (recovery/maximum Magicka/reduced cost). It's 3/4 Seducer, and 1/4 Magnus. At least, this is what my former Guild suggested I go with. Everything is VR1 currently.
But something kind of bothers me. Now that I'm VR2, should I get upgraded gear now or wait 'till I'm VR5? Though I don't feel any weaker going against VR2 enemies (I'm on Silver).

And as for my current hotbar, I basically want to keep mobs off me (knockdown/snare abilities) while having high damage. I want my pet(s) to hold the aggro. But they usually don't do this (and I got 1-2 mobs in my face or throwing their damn bleeding things at me). I'm forced to mash keys. And since I have to focus on what's going on my screen instead of my keyboard, I often forget what key I'm pressing.
I'm used to clicking the buttons with my mouse, instead of pushing buttons. I know there's an option for 'cursor mode', but I think it doesn't work during combat. Plus, the buttons are quite small to see with my eyes.

And so, I hope that answers all of your questions.

Nestor · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

But one of my main complaints, is due to the five slots... how in the heck are you supposed to get any really good rotations? Two slots are already used to summon my pets, leaving me with only three. It's a huge balancing act.

As for my Sorcerer's stats, I'll admit using a bow is a stupid idea. I dunno... I really like bows.

And as for my current hotbar, I basically want to keep mobs off me while having high damage. I want my pet(s) to hold the aggro. But they usually don't do this (and I got 1-2 mobs in my face or throwing their damn bleeding things at me). I'm forced to mash keys. And since I have to focus on what's going on my screen instead of my keyboard, I often forget what key I'm pressing.

There are two main resource pools you put your attributes into, either Stamina or Magic. For a caster, you want Magic. There is a way to play a Stamina Sorcerer, but your not ready for that yet. So, put all your attributes into Magic, and use a Destro Staff (its both Ranged and Up Close). It scales from Magic so that is a good thing for a caster. It also has a skill that knocks the enemies back so they are not in your face.

Using the function method I outlined above, you will not worry so much about the keys, other than the 5 you need.

Yes, 5 skills is a limitation, but it is a good one really. Also, you can run two Destro Staffs and have one bar be for Bosses and one bar be for Mobs, or one bar be for AoE and one bar be for single target damage. It's all in how you like to play the game.

But, we are always moving skills onto and off our bars in this game, it is something to get used to. 90% of the time, one bar set up is going to take care of you, the other 10%, move things around.

As for those other skills in the Guild Lines, most of those are support skills. For example, Inner Light that boosts Spell Critcals, you want that on your bar if your a magic user (at least most of the time) as it is a Buff Skill.

Benie · March 2016

Ok, I read what you said above. That sounds like a good rotation. But as I stated, 1 and 2 are set to summoning my pets. How do I work with this?
Plus, the way keys are bound, I'm going to have to press those keys to activate other abilities on my second bar. And that feels very inconvenient.

NBrookus · March 2016

I suggest you ditch the pets. There are sorc pet builds that work, but they aren't going to be the hunter class you are looking for -- there isn't one in this game. Instead, they are preventing you from reaching your full potential and playing your sorc as an ESO sorc.

I would say Magicka DK has the most damage and sustain in PvE right now, but sorc have the most utility and flexibility -- but you need all 10 skills and 2 ultimates (or 15 skills an d2 ultimates) to get the most out of your sorc. You can be a sorc that zip around and kites things while calling down lighting form the sky and your fingertips. You can be a tanky, shield stacking sorc that gathers mobs and AoEs them down. You can be a sneaky ranged sorc that kills mobs with frags and curses before they even get close.

Once you've had a chance to try out the other sorc skills, then maybe you'll decide you do want a pet, or even two.

Let me 3rd or 4th the suggestion to keep similar skills on similar keys. My sorc usually has 5 as a toggle buff, 4 as a shield, then 1-2-3 as some sort of rotation. So even if a bar swap fails, if I mash 4 I'm getting some sort of shield.

P.S. Have you considered turning your stam DK into a werewolf? It might give you some hunter-y feel, and the 5 WW skills really work together well.

Benie · March 2016

Well, the only reason I went with a Sorc was because it has pets. That's pretty much it. I do understand what you mean, though. Unfortunately, I'm not actually good when it comes to moving around and focusing on my targets. I'm not saying I completely suck at it, I just have trouble. This is why I like ranged classes more. Because I can just stay in one spot (though having to react if/when my pet dies).
Though, tell me. Why do you feel the pets you get (the Familiar or the Clanfear) aren't like a Hunter's pet? They hold aggro. I just can't get them to go after the target before I attack. There is a way, but it's not well-explained.

NBrookus wrote: »

I would say Magicka DK has the most damage and sustain in PvE right now

How would a Magicka-based DK have the most damage in PvE? Weapon enchants?

NBrookus wrote: »

Have you considered turning your stam DK into a werewolf?

Since playing Skyrim and doing the Companions questline, I kind of feel immoral to do such a thing (the whole having to feed to keep your abilities up thing, and having to avoid guards when in Werewolf form). Though, please explain how it might give a more hunter-y feel. I might reconsider, if it's different in ESO.

Nestor · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Though, tell me. Why do you feel the pets you get (the Familiar or the Clanfear) aren't like a Hunter's pet? They hold aggro. I just can't get them to go after the target before I attack. There is a way, but it's not well-explained.

We used to be able to lock onto a target and send our pets to that target with the Y Key on the PC, not sure how you do this on the console. Just remember, both the Pet and your character, not you the player, have to have line of site to the target or they will not engage. Remember this as you are usually above your character with the camera, and way above the pets too.

As for Pets, they are hit or miss with usefulness. I used them a lot when I was leveling, but stopped using them a year ago or more. I have not even put any points back into the line with the last respec I did on her. Reason, I got Impulse and Hardened Ward on my Sorcerer, so the need for the Pets went away. Also, the Pets require you to use up a slot on each bar if you want to keep them around with weapon swaps.

So, they are nice to have, but you can do much better without them once you learn how to do a good skill rotation.

Note, once you figure your rotations out, then you can learn Weapon Attack Weaving with Skill Attacks.

As for targeting things while moving around, it takes some practice, but you can get the hang of it. Probably the first thing to learn is how to circle a target while facing it. You can practice this on NPCs in towns (just turn off the Harm Innocents option in the game play options) while firing light attacks at them. However the key to this game is to be Mobile, Agile and Hostile. Now, this does not mean you need to be a spastic monkey while playing, but you need to move out of Red, move out of the path of incoming spell attacks, and make the mobs come to you and not sit there and wait for them.

Benie · March 2016

Thanks anyways, everyone. Unfortunately, this entire conversation has literally gone nowhere. Just more "learn" and "try".
I think it's best I just get out of the genre. And no, you cannot have my stuff.

NBrookus · March 2016

I'm not sure what advice you were expecting to get. You haven't posted your build or skill rotation, so that can't be advised upon. (Please do post it if you want more detailed feedback.) What we are saying is what you are already finding out: a bow-wielding magicka sorc is not a very viable build in this game, and it's gimping you. It's not necessarily your brain that's the problem, it's a square peg/round hole issue.

Your three basic options for a much more viable build are:

Switch to a stam sorc with just enough magicka for your pets. (Fair warning: Stam sorc is a tough build to pull off.)
Switch to a magicka ranged weapon to use with your pets. (What most pet build sorcs do.)
Drop the pets and try one of the other playstyles available for sorcs. You don't have to be a highly mobile sorc if that's hard for you, you can be a tanky shield-stacking sorc.

If you want to stay in the game, I suggest a guild. Doing content with other players allows them to give immediate feedback on specifics in how you are playing. It's something we can't really do here.

Saint314Louis1985 · March 2016

the basics for a general build are as follows:

1-2 hard hitting dmg skills
1-2 decent aoe
1 good CC skill
1 gap closer or mobility skill
1 good self heal
fill the rest in with skills that buff you or your rotation
ultimates that save your ass

if you absolutely have to use a bow, change your attributes and gear enchants to mostly stamina. id recommend keeping a little bit of extra magicka for use of sorc skills.

use a 2H sword and bow, use pets if you wish. 2H has some good skills

i will say though, usually a bow is a secondary weapon only used in some situations.

like the others have told you, people say stam sorc is hard to play, but by going to a stam build you will definitely be better than you were going with magicka and using a bow. then all it takes is practice if you wish to become good at it.

its all about your build man. a magicka sorc using a bow will never be effective. i suggest researching some stam sorc builds online for more details, then adding and removing skills you feel are important to you. i cant give you alot of advice because ive never played one. nobody can make your build for you, but doing some research may start you down the right path.

if your not willing to put in just a little time then you are not going to be any better than you currently are and there is no helping you.

good luck.