Turelus wrote: »

Why did this become another Templar thread.

Zheg wrote: »

Take a quick browse through any of the forum sections and you'll find players vociferously demonstrating their lack of faith and/or disdain for the lead combat designer and the work that comes out of the combat team as a whole. While just a (large) subset, templars and stamina users tend to make up a significant percentage of those unhappy at this particular point in time. Templars because, well, go read the 75+ page feedback thread on the PTS section (someone should since ZOS won't), and stamina users because Wrobel thought it would be a good idea to only balance magicka for this patch, and wait until DB to begin balancing things likes stamina, heavy armor, world class lines, etc. Pvpers as a whole also fit into this subset mostly because of aoe caps. Let's also not forget how it's taken since beta to even begin a process (that should take all of a week of brainstorming and coding) to revamp the trait system that's resulted in a majority being utterly useless for gameplay.

To be fair, I'm sure there are some that are perfectly happy and/or supportive. But if we're being fair, it's impossible to ignore the percentage of the game population that do not feel that way. To chalk up the fury to it all being derived from mmo gamers 'being mmo gamers' and exaggerating everything would be disingenuous given some of the truly asinine things said from the combat team ("Wall of Elements melts players", aoe caps, templar houses xD) that demonstrate clear disconnect issues between the game they are balancing and the game that we all play. So the question is, how does ESO move forward? When the fruit of the combat team spends more time as the butt of jokes or memes than being enjoyed by that many players, how does ZOS recover? Do you keep chugging along ignoring the problem and hope that players stop talking about it, or that they don't all jump ship as soon as there are other options on the market? Want to take a shot at answering those difficult questions @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

Turelus wrote: »

[quotebalancedn;2747009"]

Turelus wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Alabyn wrote: »

I hope part of the way forward is taking a more collegial attitude on the forums. Allegations that developers do not read the Forums, "hate" certain types of players, or classes conveyed by spiteful and provocative, insulting language just muddy the waters. The way forward begins not with Wrobel or anyone else explaining themselves, but with constructive feedback and behaving as gentleman and women. I hope your thread heads in that direction!

Once that culture has changed on these forums, we can begin the important work of improving the game.

Do you have any idea of the amount of constructive feedback that the community has given them? Take your fedora off.

That doesn't mean they have to act on it though. End of the day this is their game and if they want the Templar class to fight in their house that's how it's going to be. Just because the vocal forums (and mostly PvP) community don't like that stance doesn't mean they can't do it.

I have been a Nightblade since day one, I've been through the lows, enjoying the current highs and fully expect lows again some day. The fact is though I enjoy the game and the dynamic PvP fights. My biggest gripe now isn't skill balance but the core mechanics which are in an ugly flux of pre-vet/veteran/CP/no-vet.

I am hoping that ESO 3.0 (which makes the most sense to be the VR removal release) will bring some balance and stability to the system and we can work onwards from there.

Also plenty of things get listened to when feedback is given, but knee-jerk reaction rage about "my class isn't win any more" are quite often what a majority of the posts break down into.

No one expects them to make changes overnight, or give in to every knee-jerk reaction, but the Templar class in particular has had broken and useless skills for a VERY long time. The feedback and suggestions from some people (Cough @Joy_Division cough) on solutions for improving the class are pretty impressive, but nothing ever gets done. Instead they try to balance around how they THINK their game plays instead of how it ACTUALLY plays.

Yet we see so many Templars in both PvE and PvP playing every single day with these issues. I won't disagree that if a skill is broken is should be ignored for extensive periods of time, however the class/game can't be so broken than it's unplayable if people are still online playing both the game and class every single day.

Every class is going to have its quarter on the top then it's time down the bottom. As I have said I agree they can do better, but having people tell the developers they suck at their jobs, and to quit doesn't do anything to help the situation at all. Again I can say that whilst there are hundreds of posts with good feedback most are drowned out by the crap posts and morons. They have also come a long way since release and are showing a willingness to communicate with us. I didn't see any class specific balance threads for Craglorns release, now we seem to have one for TG and I would imagine most updates going forward.

The issue seems to simply be we don't see or understand their vision for each class play style, then when they do tell us (Templar house) the community (again the vocal forums PvP community) reject it and deem ZOS too incompetent to manage THEIR (the communities) class.

The only thing we can do is band together and make sure the information we are giving them is good enough to show what/where/why/how and hope they take it on board, if they don't and choose a direction we don't agree with then we either roll with it and keep playing the game we love or walk away and go to something we enjoy more.

Just because they have an idea for a class, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Again, and I can't stress this enough: They make choices that suggest they don't even play their own game. They make decisions based on how they WANT or THINK the game plays, not how it ACTUALLY plays.

This is their game though. As dumb as it sounds we the players can't dictate to them when they have to do, we can give reasoning, thought and examples, however end of the day we are not the developers.

I don't think I have ever played an MMO where the developers look at the forums and go "You know what, you're 100% correct and we will use your idea". Even EVE Online which has some of the best Dev/Player communication out there this doesn't happen. The players tell CCP how terrible the idea is, CCP do it any way and the game continues on like it always has.

The difference between ZOS and CCP however is that CCP will post why they're doing it, how they're doing it etc.
The developers will take the game/classes/skills in the direction they want, the only thing we can do as players is give feedback, and that feedback is more likely to be listened to if it's constructive, informational and helpful.

Also we still don't know anything about ZOS' development methods. Wrobel has a team but how many are on that team? Does each team have its own code writers or is all the code done by one separate team and they have to be scheduled into doing changes etc.

I fully understand peoples frustrations here, there are still things ZOS say where I slap my head and wonder WTF they are doing, but I also accept this isn't my game and if I really don't like it I can find others suited to what I do like. It's coming upon two years though now and I am still paying my sub and still playing this more than any other game. So for all the issues it's not doing that badly in my eyes.

Any way maybe I should leave this debate for a few other replies, we're going back and forth quite bit here.

Zheg wrote: »

xarguideb17_ESO wrote: »

Incrediclint wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Well to be honest it is a difficult position to be in for several reasons.

-Most players are not objective about balance or what is best for the game overall (class bias)
-The complexity of the combat system
-The build flexibility inherent to the game design (i.e any class can wear any armor, additional skill lines outside of class lines etc.) adds additional complexity
-Additional layer of complexity on top of already complex systems (Champion Point system)*
-Ingenuous players using build flexibility to create amazing synergistic builds that exceed expectations and force adjustments

*Love the idea of the system but it has some serious flaws and should have gone through a lengthy pilot run on pts to properly work out the issues before going live. The suits and their SOP probably forced this rollout before it was ready is my guess.

Quite frankly I'm overall extremely happy with the combat system in this game.

Do I think everything is perfect and dandy? No

However, at the end of the day I'm having fun playing PvP in this game and having some great entertainment after a hard days work which is what its all about for me.

As has been proven in the past, players rarely know what they really want. Very often when they get it they are still not happy because of problems the changes caused in other areas of the game that those players failed to realize before asking for said changes.

I've seen MMO's in the past die out simply because they listened to the community more then they should have. These days I applaud a company that basically says "We're going to make the game we want to make, you can like it or leave it" instead of changing the goals every other month. As a developer myself I can honestly say that ZOS will always know more about what's going on with there game in every single aspect. They have TONS more data/logs then any player could even hope to collect.

The biggest problem is there are too many gamers that think they are special snowflakes.

YUUP!
What (s)he said.

I don't think ZOS deserves such a condescending thread.
If things are so bad, OP, maybe you should look for another MMO that is more suitable for your preferences.

I play this MMO, because I find that combat is great and I think this is *the* MMO for me.
Maybe this is not the MMO for you.
The balance is ever a work in progress.
If you have problems, just post some constructive feedback and don't start a flame war.
That's what I think this is and this thread should be closed.

Haters gonna hate.

Actually, I cancelled my 2+year long sub yesterday and bought a backer package to CU with beta access. My entire pvp guild (one of the last few remaining on NA) is going to CU, and every other pvp guild I play with and compete against is going to CU. So, maybe, just maybe, the devs do deserve a blunt thread telling them there's a problem - or better yet, telling them there's been a problem for over 2 years now.

To your suggestion, constructive feedback has been posted by me and countless others in countless other threads and largely goes ignored and unacknowledged, even when skills are bugged and not working correctly. You may not have reached a point where you dgaf any more, but I have. Wrobel and the combat team are the driving force behind me dropping this like a hot potato once CU is out, I see no reason why they should be spared shame because of 'feelings'. If you heard the things said about Wrobel and the combat team in TS and in /zone, you'd appreciate how toned down the criticism in this thread was.