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So many are furious with the combat team development, what's the path forward?

  • SlayerTheDragon
    SlayerTheDragon
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    For me the problem is pretty obvious. Nerf burst damage and crits across the board. Make people work for kills. Double the health and armor if it helps. As long as fights last less than a minute I am not convinced some meaningful gameplay can be achieved.

    This is where regen becomes a problem - for the classes that don't have it built in (Templar). I never want to have heavy attack someone to death. Never.
    ¤═══¤ People don't like it when you talk to them with your weapon drawn ¤═══¤
  • Humatiel
    Humatiel
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    either a Templar or Dragonknight need to be in this game (not both) and add the long lost Warden back into the game
    VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
    700+ CP
    GM of Luxury Raids
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    Why did this become another Templar thread. :disappointed:
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Humatiel
    Humatiel
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Why did this become another Templar thread. :disappointed:

    don't worry I've got this.

    BUFF SORCS NOW!!
    Edited by Humatiel on March 7, 2016 8:19AM
    VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
    700+ CP
    GM of Luxury Raids
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    TBH I think this thread kind of made it's point and we gave ZOS as much feedback as we were going to manage a few pages back. Glad that we could vent some frustration, tell them some issue and know someone was reading.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • phillyboy7897
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    It became a templar thread cause some dude went on a 8 post textwall rampage about how its cool to nerf templars or something along those lines.
  • Enraged_Tiki_Torch
    Enraged_Tiki_Torch
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    @phillyboy7897
    It became a templar thread cause some dude went on a 8 post textwall rampage about how its cool to nerf templars or something along those lines.

    "or something along those lines..." English? Can you read it?

    Seriously though, my point was very clear. Your tryin to make a strawman argument which is weird considering your other post was several lines justifying the nerfbat. The OP made several comments about Templars and Stam players complaining to the combat developers. My post was from my own perspective that most of the complaining to the dev team is simply unjust. Was never aimed at attacking the OP either, but the opposite opinion of whiners who flood the forums asking for more "I WIN" buttons. I made the distinction between legitimate problems with this (and any other class) such as bugged abilities, OP abilities, and things that need improving. However people who come on the forums saying Templars suck, seriously don't know how to play one. How did you take away "it's cool to nerf Templars" from anything I wrote???

    8 out of 11 abilities you use got nerfed? I see most of the abilities I use being buffed.

    I should thank people for Channeled Focus. I dunno, I used the ability when if you left the circle you immediately lost ALL the buffs. A real *** time those days were for us Templars cause that would of been nice as there were softcaps on magicka regen. Yes, Zenimax don't let Toppling Charge be a priority. There are far more important things for you to do. We must have that extra 1k magicka after we leave our little circle, Toppling Charge can wait another 2 years. Granted I do see Zenimax trying to fix this. Can't wait for it to work consistently.
    Edited by Enraged_Tiki_Torch on March 7, 2016 3:45PM
    My solution to Champion Point System here
  • TheBull
    TheBull
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    Zheg wrote: »
    Take a quick browse through any of the forum sections and you'll find players vociferously demonstrating their lack of faith and/or disdain for the lead combat designer and the work that comes out of the combat team as a whole. While just a (large) subset, templars and stamina users tend to make up a significant percentage of those unhappy at this particular point in time. Templars because, well, go read the 75+ page feedback thread on the PTS section (someone should since ZOS won't), and stamina users because Wrobel thought it would be a good idea to only balance magicka for this patch, and wait until DB to begin balancing things likes stamina, heavy armor, world class lines, etc. Pvpers as a whole also fit into this subset mostly because of aoe caps. Let's also not forget how it's taken since beta to even begin a process (that should take all of a week of brainstorming and coding) to revamp the trait system that's resulted in a majority being utterly useless for gameplay.

    To be fair, I'm sure there are some that are perfectly happy and/or supportive. But if we're being fair, it's impossible to ignore the percentage of the game population that do not feel that way. To chalk up the fury to it all being derived from mmo gamers 'being mmo gamers' and exaggerating everything would be disingenuous given some of the truly asinine things said from the combat team ("Wall of Elements melts players", aoe caps, templar houses xD) that demonstrate clear disconnect issues between the game they are balancing and the game that we all play. So the question is, how does ESO move forward? When the fruit of the combat team spends more time as the butt of jokes or memes than being enjoyed by that many players, how does ZOS recover? Do you keep chugging along ignoring the problem and hope that players stop talking about it, or that they don't all jump ship as soon as there are other options on the market? Want to take a shot at answering those difficult questions @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

    Great post man. Thanks.

  • Incrediclint
    Incrediclint
    Soul Shriven
    I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of the team who is responsible for balance. It's just too difficult when I try to realistically think about the task of balancing everything as a whole.

    However, because it's necessary to strive for balance, perhaps the combat team could implement a system that removes the 4 classes that we currently have (Templar, Dragonknight, Nightblade, Sorcerer) and instead allows us to choose 3 of the 12 skill lines for building our character.

    Then, the issue is not about balancing classes, but instead, about balancing skill lines. This would drastically reduce the amount of work for the combat team and also give players more options. Then we wouldn't have whole groups of people complaining that their entire class feels useless to them (as we currently have with Templars).

    Wouldn't change a thing. Basically moving to a more Asheron's Call style system that would eventually end up having a single skill line setup and spec that dominates everything else and if your not running that template your garbage. Purely skill line based systems ALWAYS end up in that situation. Then any changes they make just causes an FOTM chain reaction every patch. It'll actually increase the amount of work they have to do because player A who wants to spec skill line 3, 6, and 10, wants to be viable but isn't. Fixing that specific combo then breaks others. It's much harder and a complete nightmare to balance.

    Do the math behind it, trying to balance every possible combination of skill lines against every other possible combination of skill lines is.... well you get the picture.
    Edited by Incrediclint on March 7, 2016 3:42PM
  • Helluin
    Helluin
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    Personally I still prefer the game before 1.6.

    Yes, light armor and other issues were requiring some changements but the game was a lot more fun when we were able to build a character in more different ways.
    Ultimates and other skills scaling off max stats, magicka and stamina morphs, no soft caps and Champion System led to many issues we had during 2015 like Dodge Roll, Streak, Cloak, etc. but also killed the unconventional builds - hybrid builds, something that was and should be a core of a TES game and "play the way you want".
    But for the problems of heavy armor, tanks nowadays are not in a good situation because of this, because a tank magicka or stamina is somewhat hybrid as build.

    The system was oversimplified and for me it lost its best unique feature.
    Yes, combat and skills wise, TESO is still fun but less than before and it's something different nowadays. It's more similar to many other MMORPGs but it's losing the feeling of a TES MMORPG.
    Edited by Helluin on March 7, 2016 3:46PM
    "... and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Ilúvatar."
  • Incrediclint
    Incrediclint
    Soul Shriven
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Well to be honest it is a difficult position to be in for several reasons.

    -Most players are not objective about balance or what is best for the game overall (class bias)
    -The complexity of the combat system
    -The build flexibility inherent to the game design (i.e any class can wear any armor, additional skill lines outside of class lines etc.) adds additional complexity
    -Additional layer of complexity on top of already complex systems (Champion Point system)*
    -Ingenuous players using build flexibility to create amazing synergistic builds that exceed expectations and force adjustments

    *Love the idea of the system but it has some serious flaws and should have gone through a lengthy pilot run on pts to properly work out the issues before going live. The suits and their SOP probably forced this rollout before it was ready is my guess.

    Quite frankly I'm overall extremely happy with the combat system in this game.

    Do I think everything is perfect and dandy? No

    However, at the end of the day I'm having fun playing PvP in this game and having some great entertainment after a hard days work which is what its all about for me.


    As has been proven in the past, players rarely know what they really want. Very often when they get it they are still not happy because of problems the changes caused in other areas of the game that those players failed to realize before asking for said changes.

    I've seen MMO's in the past die out simply because they listened to the community more then they should have. These days I applaud a company that basically says "We're going to make the game we want to make, you can like it or leave it" instead of changing the goals every other month. As a developer myself I can honestly say that ZOS will always know more about what's going on with there game in every single aspect. They have TONS more data/logs then any player could even hope to collect.

    The biggest problem is there are too many gamers that think they are special snowflakes.

  • MikeB
    MikeB
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    Turelus wrote: »
    [quotebalancedn;2747009"]
    Turelus wrote: »
    Sallington wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Sallington wrote: »
    Alabyn wrote: »
    I hope part of the way forward is taking a more collegial attitude on the forums. Allegations that developers do not read the Forums, "hate" certain types of players, or classes conveyed by spiteful and provocative, insulting language just muddy the waters. The way forward begins not with Wrobel or anyone else explaining themselves, but with constructive feedback and behaving as gentleman and women. I hope your thread heads in that direction!

    Once that culture has changed on these forums, we can begin the important work of improving the game.

    Do you have any idea of the amount of constructive feedback that the community has given them? Take your fedora off.

    That doesn't mean they have to act on it though. End of the day this is their game and if they want the Templar class to fight in their house that's how it's going to be. Just because the vocal forums (and mostly PvP) community don't like that stance doesn't mean they can't do it.

    I have been a Nightblade since day one, I've been through the lows, enjoying the current highs and fully expect lows again some day. The fact is though I enjoy the game and the dynamic PvP fights. My biggest gripe now isn't skill balance but the core mechanics which are in an ugly flux of pre-vet/veteran/CP/no-vet.

    I am hoping that ESO 3.0 (which makes the most sense to be the VR removal release) will bring some balance and stability to the system and we can work onwards from there.

    Also plenty of things get listened to when feedback is given, but knee-jerk reaction rage about "my class isn't win any more" are quite often what a majority of the posts break down into.

    No one expects them to make changes overnight, or give in to every knee-jerk reaction, but the Templar class in particular has had broken and useless skills for a VERY long time. The feedback and suggestions from some people (Cough @Joy_Division cough) on solutions for improving the class are pretty impressive, but nothing ever gets done. Instead they try to balance around how they THINK their game plays instead of how it ACTUALLY plays.

    Yet we see so many Templars in both PvE and PvP playing every single day with these issues. I won't disagree that if a skill is broken is should be ignored for extensive periods of time, however the class/game can't be so broken than it's unplayable if people are still online playing both the game and class every single day.

    Every class is going to have its quarter on the top then it's time down the bottom. As I have said I agree they can do better, but having people tell the developers they suck at their jobs, and to quit doesn't do anything to help the situation at all. Again I can say that whilst there are hundreds of posts with good feedback most are drowned out by the crap posts and morons. They have also come a long way since release and are showing a willingness to communicate with us. I didn't see any class specific balance threads for Craglorns release, now we seem to have one for TG and I would imagine most updates going forward.

    The issue seems to simply be we don't see or understand their vision for each class play style, then when they do tell us (Templar house) the community (again the vocal forums PvP community) reject it and deem ZOS too incompetent to manage THEIR (the communities) class.

    The only thing we can do is band together and make sure the information we are giving them is good enough to show what/where/why/how and hope they take it on board, if they don't and choose a direction we don't agree with then we either roll with it and keep playing the game we love or walk away and go to something we enjoy more.

    Just because they have an idea for a class, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Again, and I can't stress this enough: They make choices that suggest they don't even play their own game. They make decisions based on how they WANT or THINK the game plays, not how it ACTUALLY plays.
    This is their game though. As dumb as it sounds we the players can't dictate to them when they have to do, we can give reasoning, thought and examples, however end of the day we are not the developers.

    I don't think I have ever played an MMO where the developers look at the forums and go "You know what, you're 100% correct and we will use your idea". Even EVE Online which has some of the best Dev/Player communication out there this doesn't happen. The players tell CCP how terrible the idea is, CCP do it any way and the game continues on like it always has.

    The difference between ZOS and CCP however is that CCP will post why they're doing it, how they're doing it etc.
    The developers will take the game/classes/skills in the direction they want, the only thing we can do as players is give feedback, and that feedback is more likely to be listened to if it's constructive, informational and helpful.

    Also we still don't know anything about ZOS' development methods. Wrobel has a team but how many are on that team? Does each team have its own code writers or is all the code done by one separate team and they have to be scheduled into doing changes etc.

    I fully understand peoples frustrations here, there are still things ZOS say where I slap my head and wonder WTF they are doing, but I also accept this isn't my game and if I really don't like it I can find others suited to what I do like. It's coming upon two years though now and I am still paying my sub and still playing this more than any other game. So for all the issues it's not doing that badly in my eyes.

    Any way maybe I should leave this debate for a few other replies, we're going back and forth quite bit here. :sweat_smile:

    What!? Yes, we can dictate how the game is developed. We're the customers and w/o us they don't have a game.

    I've seen plenty of customer/player ideas be posted on the forums and get implemented into the game, heck it's happened in ESO.

    It's passive post going "oh we just need to wait and it will OK". It's been 2 years and there are still issues from BETA that will still be in the game with TG launch. This game was in dev for 7 years, has been in official release for 2 and is no where near being in true release form.
    Edited by MikeB on March 7, 2016 4:50PM
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    So I think this TG update will also be a good example of where ZOS will fall behind other companies.

    The release is very buggy, more than one would expect of a large MMO and especially one which was on PTS for so long.

    The real interest for me here though will be how fast are these issues addressed, for most MMO games you're going to see a patch the next day to get rid of as many issues as they can, this helps calm players. However following the ZOS MO this will most likely be in this state for a week until next incremental day. Will be interesting to watch.

    I have no plans to rage or leave however, it's frustrating but the games still doing good for me, just will stay away from PvP and the other buggy areas until it's ironed out.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • phillyboy7897
    phillyboy7897
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    Oh I can read english fine, don't see much of a point to your posts other than to picking an argument and sticking to your guns.

    People are pissed because an under-performing class got dealt a load of nerfs, pretty basic concept. I'll list em for ya

    Restoring Light
    Healing circle nerf/buff
    BoL nerf
    Ritual nerf
    Rune nerf
    Restoring light passive Nerf
    (Lol dude there are only 5 skills in this tree and the only 2 that didn't get nerfed are ones almost no one uses)

    Dawn's Wrath
    Vampire's Bane - 2 seconds more dot buff
    Dark Flare - Dmg Buff
    Purifying Light - Massive nerf is now useless
    Unstable Core/Total Dark - Buff but also broken

    Aedric spear
    Crescent/Empowering Sweep - Buff
    Stupid Shield - 1% more buff
    Knockback spear - range buff
    Toppling Charge - nerf and failed fix attempt
    Sweeps - buff/nerf combo mostly buff

    It's the same number of nerfs and buffs, but the nerfs are major and some of the buffs are pathetic. (2 seconds more on your 7 second dot, 1% more on your damage shield that you've never used, 8 more extra range on your spear no one uses, these skills are still useless!)

    Dude I don't even know the names of the skills they gave these miniscule buffs to because no one uses them.

    I'm not freaked out by these changes, I will do fine. Do I understand where people are coming from? Absolutely, and you're gonna come troll this thread and pick fights throwing out big words calling people names, dude I'm gonna hit you with some numbers and logic.

    An underperforming class got nerfed, the hardest other than stam nightblade. Thats why people are pissed.


  • xarguideb17_ESO
    xarguideb17_ESO
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    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Well to be honest it is a difficult position to be in for several reasons.

    -Most players are not objective about balance or what is best for the game overall (class bias)
    -The complexity of the combat system
    -The build flexibility inherent to the game design (i.e any class can wear any armor, additional skill lines outside of class lines etc.) adds additional complexity
    -Additional layer of complexity on top of already complex systems (Champion Point system)*
    -Ingenuous players using build flexibility to create amazing synergistic builds that exceed expectations and force adjustments

    *Love the idea of the system but it has some serious flaws and should have gone through a lengthy pilot run on pts to properly work out the issues before going live. The suits and their SOP probably forced this rollout before it was ready is my guess.

    Quite frankly I'm overall extremely happy with the combat system in this game.

    Do I think everything is perfect and dandy? No

    However, at the end of the day I'm having fun playing PvP in this game and having some great entertainment after a hard days work which is what its all about for me.


    As has been proven in the past, players rarely know what they really want. Very often when they get it they are still not happy because of problems the changes caused in other areas of the game that those players failed to realize before asking for said changes.

    I've seen MMO's in the past die out simply because they listened to the community more then they should have. These days I applaud a company that basically says "We're going to make the game we want to make, you can like it or leave it" instead of changing the goals every other month. As a developer myself I can honestly say that ZOS will always know more about what's going on with there game in every single aspect. They have TONS more data/logs then any player could even hope to collect.

    The biggest problem is there are too many gamers that think they are special snowflakes.

    YUUP!
    What (s)he said.

    I don't think ZOS deserves such a condescending thread.
    If things are so bad, OP, maybe you should look for another MMO that is more suitable for your preferences.

    I play this MMO, because I find that combat is great and I think this is *the* MMO for me.
    Maybe this is not the MMO for you.
    The balance is ever a work in progress.
    If you have problems, just post some constructive feedback and don't start a flame war.
    That's what I think this is and this thread should be closed.

    Haters gonna hate.
    Edited by xarguideb17_ESO on March 8, 2016 1:44PM
  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Well to be honest it is a difficult position to be in for several reasons.

    -Most players are not objective about balance or what is best for the game overall (class bias)
    -The complexity of the combat system
    -The build flexibility inherent to the game design (i.e any class can wear any armor, additional skill lines outside of class lines etc.) adds additional complexity
    -Additional layer of complexity on top of already complex systems (Champion Point system)*
    -Ingenuous players using build flexibility to create amazing synergistic builds that exceed expectations and force adjustments

    *Love the idea of the system but it has some serious flaws and should have gone through a lengthy pilot run on pts to properly work out the issues before going live. The suits and their SOP probably forced this rollout before it was ready is my guess.

    Quite frankly I'm overall extremely happy with the combat system in this game.

    Do I think everything is perfect and dandy? No

    However, at the end of the day I'm having fun playing PvP in this game and having some great entertainment after a hard days work which is what its all about for me.


    As has been proven in the past, players rarely know what they really want. Very often when they get it they are still not happy because of problems the changes caused in other areas of the game that those players failed to realize before asking for said changes.

    I've seen MMO's in the past die out simply because they listened to the community more then they should have. These days I applaud a company that basically says "We're going to make the game we want to make, you can like it or leave it" instead of changing the goals every other month. As a developer myself I can honestly say that ZOS will always know more about what's going on with there game in every single aspect. They have TONS more data/logs then any player could even hope to collect.

    The biggest problem is there are too many gamers that think they are special snowflakes.

    YUUP!
    What (s)he said.

    I don't think ZOS deserves such a condescending thread.
    If things are so bad, OP, maybe you should look for another MMO that is more suitable for your preferences.

    I play this MMO, because I find that combat is great and I think this is *the* MMO for me.
    Maybe this is not the MMO for you.
    The balance is ever a work in progress.
    If you have problems, just post some constructive feedback and don't start a flame war.
    That's what I think this is and this thread should be closed.

    Haters gonna hate.

    Actually, I cancelled my 2+year long sub yesterday and bought a backer package to CU with beta access. My entire pvp guild (one of the last few remaining on NA) is going to CU, and every other pvp guild I play with and compete against is going to CU. So, maybe, just maybe, the devs do deserve a blunt thread telling them there's a problem - or better yet, telling them there's been a problem for over 2 years now.

    To your suggestion, constructive feedback has been posted by me and countless others in countless other threads and largely goes ignored and unacknowledged, even when skills are bugged and not working correctly. You may not have reached a point where you dgaf any more, but I have. Wrobel and the combat team are the driving force behind me dropping this like a hot potato once CU is out, I see no reason why they should be spared shame because of 'feelings'. If you heard the things said about Wrobel and the combat team in TS and in /zone, you'd appreciate how toned down the criticism in this thread was.
  • themdogesbite
    themdogesbite
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    Look, its quite evident that we´re all insane since we´re still here believeing anything will change for the better. 2 years so far, several bugs that get back into the game over and over, lots of feedback beeing ignored and yet here we still are wasting our time, hope and money. Enough is enough.
    :]
  • SemiD4rkness
    SemiD4rkness
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    Zheg wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Well to be honest it is a difficult position to be in for several reasons.

    -Most players are not objective about balance or what is best for the game overall (class bias)
    -The complexity of the combat system
    -The build flexibility inherent to the game design (i.e any class can wear any armor, additional skill lines outside of class lines etc.) adds additional complexity
    -Additional layer of complexity on top of already complex systems (Champion Point system)*
    -Ingenuous players using build flexibility to create amazing synergistic builds that exceed expectations and force adjustments

    *Love the idea of the system but it has some serious flaws and should have gone through a lengthy pilot run on pts to properly work out the issues before going live. The suits and their SOP probably forced this rollout before it was ready is my guess.

    Quite frankly I'm overall extremely happy with the combat system in this game.

    Do I think everything is perfect and dandy? No

    However, at the end of the day I'm having fun playing PvP in this game and having some great entertainment after a hard days work which is what its all about for me.


    As has been proven in the past, players rarely know what they really want. Very often when they get it they are still not happy because of problems the changes caused in other areas of the game that those players failed to realize before asking for said changes.

    I've seen MMO's in the past die out simply because they listened to the community more then they should have. These days I applaud a company that basically says "We're going to make the game we want to make, you can like it or leave it" instead of changing the goals every other month. As a developer myself I can honestly say that ZOS will always know more about what's going on with there game in every single aspect. They have TONS more data/logs then any player could even hope to collect.

    The biggest problem is there are too many gamers that think they are special snowflakes.

    YUUP!
    What (s)he said.

    I don't think ZOS deserves such a condescending thread.
    If things are so bad, OP, maybe you should look for another MMO that is more suitable for your preferences.

    I play this MMO, because I find that combat is great and I think this is *the* MMO for me.
    Maybe this is not the MMO for you.
    The balance is ever a work in progress.
    If you have problems, just post some constructive feedback and don't start a flame war.
    That's what I think this is and this thread should be closed.

    Haters gonna hate.

    Actually, I cancelled my 2+year long sub yesterday and bought a backer package to CU with beta access. My entire pvp guild (one of the last few remaining on NA) is going to CU, and every other pvp guild I play with and compete against is going to CU. So, maybe, just maybe, the devs do deserve a blunt thread telling them there's a problem - or better yet, telling them there's been a problem for over 2 years now.

    To your suggestion, constructive feedback has been posted by me and countless others in countless other threads and largely goes ignored and unacknowledged, even when skills are bugged and not working correctly. You may not have reached a point where you dgaf any more, but I have. Wrobel and the combat team are the driving force behind me dropping this like a hot potato once CU is out, I see no reason why they should be spared shame because of 'feelings'. If you heard the things said about Wrobel and the combat team in TS and in /zone, you'd appreciate how toned down the criticism in this thread was.

    Not surprised, with such HORRIBLE game balance I don't expect a lot of dedicated pvpers to stay in this game, not when we all have to wait for a DLC to get gamebreaking exploits fixed.
  • KraziJoe
    KraziJoe
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    Is it that the devs are not reaching out to people or is it the fact that they are not reaching out to you?
    I am sure they talk with players and gather valuable insight into what is happening. You do not need validation because it's not about you, it's about the game. If you really want to help, keep providing feedback and cut back on the snark.
  • MikeB
    MikeB
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    Another reason this game will always be bad. No matter how bad the game is people will defend it with their last breath.

    There are a lot of things good about ESO but the class and combat development isn't one of them and never has been.
  • sirrmattus
    sirrmattus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well if it matters at all. Smite is ftp and its pvp blows eso out of the water
    Ebonheart Pact - North American Server
    - THE MORALES -
  • themdogesbite
    themdogesbite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    HwVjOP2.png
    :]
  • WalkingLegacy
    WalkingLegacy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Zheg wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Well to be honest it is a difficult position to be in for several reasons.

    -Most players are not objective about balance or what is best for the game overall (class bias)
    -The complexity of the combat system
    -The build flexibility inherent to the game design (i.e any class can wear any armor, additional skill lines outside of class lines etc.) adds additional complexity
    -Additional layer of complexity on top of already complex systems (Champion Point system)*
    -Ingenuous players using build flexibility to create amazing synergistic builds that exceed expectations and force adjustments

    *Love the idea of the system but it has some serious flaws and should have gone through a lengthy pilot run on pts to properly work out the issues before going live. The suits and their SOP probably forced this rollout before it was ready is my guess.

    Quite frankly I'm overall extremely happy with the combat system in this game.

    Do I think everything is perfect and dandy? No

    However, at the end of the day I'm having fun playing PvP in this game and having some great entertainment after a hard days work which is what its all about for me.


    As has been proven in the past, players rarely know what they really want. Very often when they get it they are still not happy because of problems the changes caused in other areas of the game that those players failed to realize before asking for said changes.

    I've seen MMO's in the past die out simply because they listened to the community more then they should have. These days I applaud a company that basically says "We're going to make the game we want to make, you can like it or leave it" instead of changing the goals every other month. As a developer myself I can honestly say that ZOS will always know more about what's going on with there game in every single aspect. They have TONS more data/logs then any player could even hope to collect.

    The biggest problem is there are too many gamers that think they are special snowflakes.

    YUUP!
    What (s)he said.

    I don't think ZOS deserves such a condescending thread.
    If things are so bad, OP, maybe you should look for another MMO that is more suitable for your preferences.

    I play this MMO, because I find that combat is great and I think this is *the* MMO for me.
    Maybe this is not the MMO for you.
    The balance is ever a work in progress.
    If you have problems, just post some constructive feedback and don't start a flame war.
    That's what I think this is and this thread should be closed.

    Haters gonna hate.

    Actually, I cancelled my 2+year long sub yesterday and bought a backer package to CU with beta access. My entire pvp guild (one of the last few remaining on NA) is going to CU, and every other pvp guild I play with and compete against is going to CU. So, maybe, just maybe, the devs do deserve a blunt thread telling them there's a problem - or better yet, telling them there's been a problem for over 2 years now.

    To your suggestion, constructive feedback has been posted by me and countless others in countless other threads and largely goes ignored and unacknowledged, even when skills are bugged and not working correctly. You may not have reached a point where you dgaf any more, but I have. Wrobel and the combat team are the driving force behind me dropping this like a hot potato once CU is out, I see no reason why they should be spared shame because of 'feelings'. If you heard the things said about Wrobel and the combat team in TS and in /zone, you'd appreciate how toned down the criticism in this thread was.

    Not surprised, with such HORRIBLE game balance I don't expect a lot of dedicated pvpers to stay in this game, not when we all have to wait for a DLC to get gamebreaking exploits fixed.

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/247155/class-balance-and-bug-fixes-are-not-dlc-features/p1

    Sad when they have to market such things as DLC content
  • xarguideb17_ESO
    xarguideb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Zheg wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Well to be honest it is a difficult position to be in for several reasons.

    -Most players are not objective about balance or what is best for the game overall (class bias)
    -The complexity of the combat system
    -The build flexibility inherent to the game design (i.e any class can wear any armor, additional skill lines outside of class lines etc.) adds additional complexity
    -Additional layer of complexity on top of already complex systems (Champion Point system)*
    -Ingenuous players using build flexibility to create amazing synergistic builds that exceed expectations and force adjustments

    *Love the idea of the system but it has some serious flaws and should have gone through a lengthy pilot run on pts to properly work out the issues before going live. The suits and their SOP probably forced this rollout before it was ready is my guess.

    Quite frankly I'm overall extremely happy with the combat system in this game.

    Do I think everything is perfect and dandy? No

    However, at the end of the day I'm having fun playing PvP in this game and having some great entertainment after a hard days work which is what its all about for me.


    As has been proven in the past, players rarely know what they really want. Very often when they get it they are still not happy because of problems the changes caused in other areas of the game that those players failed to realize before asking for said changes.

    I've seen MMO's in the past die out simply because they listened to the community more then they should have. These days I applaud a company that basically says "We're going to make the game we want to make, you can like it or leave it" instead of changing the goals every other month. As a developer myself I can honestly say that ZOS will always know more about what's going on with there game in every single aspect. They have TONS more data/logs then any player could even hope to collect.

    The biggest problem is there are too many gamers that think they are special snowflakes.

    YUUP!
    What (s)he said.

    I don't think ZOS deserves such a condescending thread.
    If things are so bad, OP, maybe you should look for another MMO that is more suitable for your preferences.

    I play this MMO, because I find that combat is great and I think this is *the* MMO for me.
    Maybe this is not the MMO for you.
    The balance is ever a work in progress.
    If you have problems, just post some constructive feedback and don't start a flame war.
    That's what I think this is and this thread should be closed.

    Haters gonna hate.

    Actually, I cancelled my 2+year long sub yesterday and bought a backer package to CU with beta access. My entire pvp guild (one of the last few remaining on NA) is going to CU, and every other pvp guild I play with and compete against is going to CU. So, maybe, just maybe, the devs do deserve a blunt thread telling them there's a problem - or better yet, telling them there's been a problem for over 2 years now.

    To your suggestion, constructive feedback has been posted by me and countless others in countless other threads and largely goes ignored and unacknowledged, even when skills are bugged and not working correctly. You may not have reached a point where you dgaf any more, but I have. Wrobel and the combat team are the driving force behind me dropping this like a hot potato once CU is out, I see no reason why they should be spared shame because of 'feelings'. If you heard the things said about Wrobel and the combat team in TS and in /zone, you'd appreciate how toned down the criticism in this thread was.

    It's not that I DGAF, it's that I got some neat, much needed and much appreciated improvements to my beloved magicka DK. :smiley:
    You don't have to be a subscriber anyway to play ESO. I'm not. I just buy the expansions I like. Sometimes taking a little break from the game can also make you remember what you like about it, when you return to it.
    I'll be sure to check out CU also when it comes out.
    I just watched it's alpha video, it just looks bad for now :-P
    Edited by xarguideb17_ESO on March 8, 2016 3:07PM
  • sirrmattus
    sirrmattus
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    CU looks like a rich mans M&B
    Ebonheart Pact - North American Server
    - THE MORALES -
  • Zheg
    Zheg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    KraziJoe wrote: »
    Is it that the devs are not reaching out to people or is it the fact that they are not reaching out to you?
    I am sure they talk with players and gather valuable insight into what is happening. You do not need validation because it's not about you, it's about the game. If you really want to help, keep providing feedback and cut back on the snark.

    I've either been in or had the opportunity to join player feedback sessions with Gina where she (on her personal time) comes into guild ts over the past 2 years. Kudos to her, but the supermajority of feedback is neglected when it gets to devs, forum feedback included. I'm not talking about the nerf this/buff that knee jerk feedback, I'm talking about detailed feedback honed after weeks/months of gameplay and player input.

    I don't need personal feedback from devs, I DO need them to engage and communicate when there are problem feedback threads that reach critical mass and/or are echoed by a ton of other players in multiple threads. I DO need them to reevaluate their vision at times if it's so clearly opposed to what players want or expect, and if they choose to remain opposed, provide sound reasoning behind their position. Aoe cap and Templar comments from wroebel do not meet the criteria for sound reasoning.

    Vet levels, console text chat, Templars - each of these were monumental fiascos that would have been avoided if the devs followed the above advice. It should NOT take 9+ months to even respond to an issue when there are dozens of threads on it, it should NOT take years to fix a class' skills and tell players what your intended vision for the class is (particularly when it's unrealistic given the current state of combat).

    Wrobel and the combat team get most of my disdain, but whoever is behind the decisions to not reply to sensitive topics, you're right up there with them. Gina, you cool gurl, and one of the only saving graces.
  • rfennell_ESO
    rfennell_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I'm usually on the cutting edge of bitching about the game.

    In the context of this thread I think the lot of you are kind of crazy, compared to other games this game is pretty well balanced and development is pretty much ahead of other games.

    In perfection is your ideal, expect a lifetime of disappointment.
  • Enraged_Tiki_Torch
    Enraged_Tiki_Torch
    ✭✭✭
    @phillyboy7897

    If you read English then why are you saying I said it was cool to nerf Templars? Just because I disagree with the doom crowd screaming Templars are crap now doesn't mean I am picking a fight. Your first post was not the reason I responded the way I did, it was your second where you got disrespectful so you got dealt it back.

    Maybe on the console BoL isn't such a big deal, but on PC BoL was healing 3 people for almost 20k. That is an instant that heals 60k damage. It's OP bro especially considering you can be a zombie and heal through 90% of the content with this ability alone. In 4 man content, as long as people aren't stupid and a time comes when you need to use it; rarely ever does a 3rd person need the heal. So when you write half a post justifying the reason for nerfs, I would have thought you'd understand.

    As far as the abilities you claim nobody uses. I know you have your favorite abilities but people do use javelin for example.

    I agree Purifying Light sucks but the reason why is when you time it with Detonation and Dawnbreaker/Ice Comet damage, it 1 shot people at 100% health. Seeing that Ice Comet is unreflectable now, leaving Purifying Ritual like it was would of been OP as hell. You also forgot Radiant Oppression being undodgeable again which was a real PITA. Ritual nerfed? It was never meant to cancel projectiles like it did and the heal wasn't the reason to use it.
    My solution to Champion Point System here
  • Zheg
    Zheg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    @phillyboy7897

    If you read English then why are you saying I said it was cool to nerf Templars? Just because I disagree with the doom crowd screaming Templars are crap now doesn't mean I am picking a fight. Your first post was not the reason I responded the way I did, it was your second where you got disrespectful so you got dealt it back.

    Maybe on the console BoL isn't such a big deal, but on PC BoL was healing 3 people for almost 20k. That is an instant that heals 60k damage. It's OP bro especially considering you can be a zombie and heal through 90% of the content with this ability alone. In 4 man content, as long as people aren't stupid and a time comes when you need to use it; rarely ever does a 3rd person need the heal. So when you write half a post justifying the reason for nerfs, I would have thought you'd understand.

    As far as the abilities you claim nobody uses. I know you have your favorite abilities but people do use javelin for example.

    I agree Purifying Light sucks but the reason why is when you time it with Detonation and Dawnbreaker/Ice Comet damage, it 1 shot people at 100% health. Seeing that Ice Comet is unreflectable now, leaving Purifying Ritual like it was would of been OP as hell. You also forgot Radiant Oppression being undodgeable again which was a real PITA. Ritual nerfed? It was never meant to cancel projectiles like it did and the heal wasn't the reason to use it.

    Sentences like that show you don't know as much about templars as you're trying to convince people you do. Breath hits 1 person for full, (and used to) then hit 2 others for half. That would be 20k + 10k + 10k = 40k.
  • phillyboy7897
    phillyboy7897
    ✭✭✭✭
    I don't like smartheals as much as the next dps. Dps temps are fine this patch. The healing tree is gutted bro, look at that, templar tanking, is also taking a major hit. The people threatening to leave the game is lame, and if so just do it, I agree.

    Its a lot of nerfs and that's the bottom line, for an underperforming class.

    People are not whining for no reason, and we get 3 awesome reasons why each nerf is a great idea, and all boils down to an underperforming class will perform worse after balancing than before. Thats poor balancing. You gotta look at the big picture and where this is leaving most players.

    You and me will be fine no doubt, I'm saying all of this to be like... most templars are "WTF seriously" and not for no reason.

    Balancing shouldn't make an underperforming class worse overall aka the frustration this thread is expressing.

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