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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784

So many are furious with the combat team development, what's the path forward?

  • timidobserver
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    Counterfeit lurk spotted want @ZOS_RichLambert lurk.
    V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
    V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
    V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
    V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
    V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)

  • WalkingLegacy
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    Gina always comes in for a win. Need more Gina's on the dev team.

  • Xendyn
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    Gina always comes in for a win. Need more Gina's on the dev team.

    More Gina's and more Gina.
    Lag is ruinin' my 'mershun!
    A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
    There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance - Socrates
    Member of the Old Guard, keepers of the game's history

    PC/NA
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    Awesome, thanks Gina!

    My first reaction when I saw the Z flag was "Damnit, we got moderated" however glad to know our debates and ramblings are being watched. :smile:
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Humatiel
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    Awesome, thanks Gina!

    My first reaction when I saw the Z flag was "Damnit, we got moderated" however glad to know our debates and ramblings are being watched. :smile:

    so true, pictured the @Wrobel Q&A that apparently wasn't a Q&A 45 pages in :D
    VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
    700+ CP
    GM of Luxury Raids
  • dimensional
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    I think one of the best things that ZOS and the combat team could do to help this situation is to provide more immediate relief in terms of balance changes, rather than waiting every quarter for the next DLC to come out to implement those. Why can't the incremental patches include more concrete changes? Games like League of Legends (the most popular, most competitive game on the planet) manage to routinely address balance issues through regular patches. ZOS says they want to take it slow so they don't break the game or muck up other areas, and I do understand that... but surely there is a middle ground here, some sort of compromise that we can reach that will make people happy while also maintaining the integrity of the game?

    I think if this singular issue is addressed, no matter what kind of changes we see in particular, you will show the community and the players who pay for this game and all of its content that you're listening and are willing to deliver excellent continued support to your game. This to me is probably the most important thing that the developers should consider right now, even more than the content. You can add new DLC all you want and I'm sure people will continue to buy it, but those numbers will dwindle and get smaller and smaller over time as people become disillusioned with the product they bought. Please don't fall into this trap ZOS! We all love ESO here and we want to continue playing this game and supporting you all for years to come.
    Edited by dimensional on March 4, 2016 5:10PM
  • WalkingLegacy
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    I think one of the best things that ZOS and the combat team could do to help this situation is to provide more immediate relief in terms of balance changes, rather than waiting every quarter for the next DLC to come out to implement those. Why can't the incremental patches include more concrete changes? Games like League of Legends (the most popular, most competitive game on the planet) manages to routinely address balance issues through regular patches. ZOS says they want to take it slow so they don't break the game or muck up other areas, and I do understand that... but surely there is a middle ground here, some sort of compromise that we can reach that will make people happy while also maintaining the integrity of the game? I think if this singular issue is addressed, no matter what kind of changes we see in particular, you will show the community and the players who pay for this game and all of its content that you're listening and are willing to deliver excellent continued support to your game. This to me is probably the most important thing that the developers should consider right now, even more than the content. You can add new DLC all you want and I'm sure people will continue to buy it, but those numbers will dwindle and get smaller and smaller over time as people become disillusioned with the product they bought. Please don't fall into this trap ZOS! We all love ESO here and we want to continue playing this game and supporting you all for years to come.

    The middle ground is constantly releasing the changes on the PTS.

    We get a feel for how it works and they get closer to live metrics for tweaking.
  • zerosingularity
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    That's not your thing! /lurk belongs to another! Or is he here in secret. >.>

    Glad this is being read positively though. We all are kinda disgruntled with the combat team. Progress is undeniably being made in balance, and it is unwise to stuff too much into 1 DLC, hence the split between TG and DB, though I feel it may be a good idea to get more proactive posts on issues rather than reactive posts.
    Edited by zerosingularity on March 4, 2016 5:14PM
    NA-PC

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  • dimensional
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    The middle ground is constantly releasing the changes on the PTS.

    We get a feel for how it works and they get closer to live metrics for tweaking.

    That's a big step forward, but I'd also like to say that actually designing and implementing changes (even if they are collectively smaller) on a regular, bi-weekly schedule would be nice too.
    Edited by dimensional on March 4, 2016 5:14PM
  • Zheg
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    I think one of the best things that ZOS and the combat team could do to help this situation is to provide more immediate relief in terms of balance changes, rather than waiting every quarter for the next DLC to come out to implement those. Why can't the incremental patches include more concrete changes? Games like League of Legends (the most popular, most competitive game on the planet) manage to routinely address balance issues through regular patches. ZOS says they want to take it slow so they don't break the game or muck up other areas, and I do understand that... but surely there is a middle ground here, some sort of compromise that we can reach that will make people happy while also maintaining the integrity of the game?

    I think if this singular issue is addressed, no matter what kind of changes we see in particular, you will show the community and the players who pay for this game and all of its content that you're listening and are willing to deliver excellent continued support to your game. This to me is probably the most important thing that the developers should consider right now, even more than the content. You can add new DLC all you want and I'm sure people will continue to buy it, but those numbers will dwindle and get smaller and smaller over time as people become disillusioned with the product they bought. Please don't fall into this trap ZOS! We all love ESO here and we want to continue playing this game and supporting you all for years to come.

    ^ So much this. I'm well aware that many gamers nowadays are in the "I want it nao" camp, and expect code to be done in days. On the other hand, on some fronts all we've gotten is empty promises, #noETAs, "we're working on it"s, and/or silence. Balance changes are derived behind a shroud of secrecy that's only revealed once the code is finished and on PTS, with time enough only for modest bug fixes before it hits Live. We've complained about this cycle since launch, and ZOS has done nothing to remedy it. It would be one thing if it was successful and working, but it should be clear that it's not. When players are furious, and the developers AGREE with them that things are not working/unbalanced, the correct approach is to throw out a bone to better the situation while you work on the harder fixes to the problem. You don't stay silent for months, release a quarterly patch where only 1/4 of the problem is addressed, but new ones were added, and then act surprised when your forums blow up.
  • rfennell_ESO
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    Here is the issue that the ranting haters never get:

    Be careful what you wish for, you might get it and it might end up being WORSE.

    The rants against the current devs are foolish and mostly lies and gross exaggerations. Most of the "problems" in pvp are actually centered around players abusing the game. The only thing the devs really failed at was taking into account how little the "me me me" generations give a crap about "fair play". It's all about them, and they really don't care what they have to do to achieve their "me"-centric reality.

    The downside to the way these forums work is that you can't name and shame... and that's a problem. That's a problem because some of the most visible and arrogant are also those that ought be named and shamed for exploiting the game.

    I read the forums... I see the posts. I see people who use every exploit they can talking out their rears at all times. I recently read a "who is the bestest" thread that was full of exploiters claiming the mantle for themselves. Obvious macro abusers and lag exploiters all proudly trying to claim themselves "awesome". At one point the "guaranteed to double fear you guy" and the it doesn't actually matter if you got out of the red circle because my artificial lag I use means it's going to hit you anyways. I see a guy that has to be a speed hacker posting videos and talking smack in every thread he can (if I'm moving at 140% speed and sprinting and you pull away like usain bolt facing a fat guy... I think maybe we have a problem). You have your nightly "can't be killed by any means" guys in game... and they talk smack on the forums. I see exploits so commonly in game it's pretty much laughable. From the rapid fire actions (I r teh animashun cancelar!!!) that can't be reproduced normally to the you can't hit me because of lag types...

    Without the bs-artists the combat in the game is pretty good. The only dev issue I have is how they mind boggingly decided to not include a warden system to scan users memory to make sure they aren't cheating (or at least make an attempt at it) and how they designed the animation system in a way that makes it trivial to exploit it with macros and scripts. How many multiple mundus stones exploiters are running around? How many "I permablock and never run out of stamina" guys do you see? These are things that were fixed and now the scum of the earth has just found new ways to exploit them.

    I think the devs are aware of the problems with the combat system, but the real problem is how those problems are exasperated by people abusing the game with exploits to make those combat system flaws worse than they actually are.

    What makes me furious is when I see someone that is obviously a cheat being celebrated on these forums. I had a point where I would comment on their behavior and even link videos of them doing it. ZOS just removes those things...

    Anyways, I see a lot of "you must fix templars" posts as well... then why do I see nothing but templar alts being leveled every where I look?
  • Dagoth_Rac
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    The thing I find curious is that so many of the races have passives that seem to encourage stamina builds. Half of the races (Orc, Redguard, Bosmer, Khajiit, Imperial) have racial passives that are most useful to stamina builds. Yet stamina skills and builds have, from day one, seemed to be of secondary concern to the developers. So it is like you are in a weird situation where stamina has lots of race options, but limited skill/build options. While magicka has limited race options (basically if DK then Dunmer, else Altmer), but lots of skill/build options.

    I don't think that means you should take a bunch of stamina races and flip them to magicka races. That would just wreck a bunch of existing builds that actually work. But you really need to make stamina more versatile because so many of our favorite TES races are sporting stamina passives. MMOs are not one-and-done games where you "finish" and never play again. With so much time invested and the desire to invest more time, people get emotionally attached to their characters! They don't want to reroll to a different race.
  • Sallington
    Sallington
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    I think one of the best things that ZOS and the combat team could do to help this situation is to provide more immediate relief in terms of balance changes, rather than waiting every quarter for the next DLC to come out to implement those. Why can't the incremental patches include more concrete changes? Games like League of Legends (the most popular, most competitive game on the planet) manage to routinely address balance issues through regular patches. ZOS says they want to take it slow so they don't break the game or muck up other areas, and I do understand that... but surely there is a middle ground here, some sort of compromise that we can reach that will make people happy while also maintaining the integrity of the game?

    I think if this singular issue is addressed, no matter what kind of changes we see in particular, you will show the community and the players who pay for this game and all of its content that you're listening and are willing to deliver excellent continued support to your game. This to me is probably the most important thing that the developers should consider right now, even more than the content. You can add new DLC all you want and I'm sure people will continue to buy it, but those numbers will dwindle and get smaller and smaller over time as people become disillusioned with the product they bought. Please don't fall into this trap ZOS! We all love ESO here and we want to continue playing this game and supporting you all for years to come.

    I find it worrisome that they think making small balance changes regularly will break their game. What makes it worse is that in that's turned out to be true in some cases.
    Edited by Sallington on March 4, 2016 5:38PM
    Daggerfall Covenant
    Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
    Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
    Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
    Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||
  • dimensional
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    They weren't referring to small balance changes when they said that, to be fair. But they definitely could start implementing small changes and I don't think it would impact their production pipeline much, nor do I think small but import balance changes added in incremental patches would upset balance in other areas of that game. There's more they could be doing for sure.
    Edited by dimensional on March 4, 2016 5:41PM
  • reften
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    yodased wrote: »
    Let's make sure we are on the same page here

    bigbang.jpg

    You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.

    None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.

    Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.

    You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.

    Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.


    They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.

    Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.

    Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?

    This should be required reading prior to posting on the forums
    Reften
    Bosmer (Wood Elf)
    Moonlight Crew (RIP), Misfitz (RIP), Victorem Guild

    VR16 NB, Stam build, Max all crafts.

    Azuras & Trueflame. Mostly PvP, No alts.

    Semi-retired till the lag is fixed.

    Love the Packers, Bourbon, and ESO...one of those will eventually kill me.
  • Zheg
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    Thanks Gina. The call to remain civil should not be lost on us, but the anger should not be lost on you guys either, nor the reasons fueling that anger. There was once a time I'd go out of my way to be friendly and defensive of you guys when players weren't being fair, even to Wrobel. Years of inaction and disregard have eroded all of that. I'm at a point where I don't even care if I get banned (and well aware that some of my posts teeter on the line or cross the lines of the ToS), because I'm gone as soon as another option is available on the market. ZOS has squandered any good faith they may have started with or earned with me, and while one player is a drop in the bucket, I think you know better than anyone just how many drops there have been. You will lose me and my entire pvp guild (one of the last few remaining) when CU launches (actually, before that, we're jumping during the beta cycle because we can't stomach how this game is managed any longer), and I doubt there's anything you can do to change our minds. It's not because of how amazing CU sounds, it's because of how misguided ZOS has been in managing a game that had so much potential. In the few remaining months we have together, I'd like to be able to at least somewhat enjoy the classes I choose to play, and pvp, and if not, we'll, I'll complain on the forums until I'm banned or get tired of it. With that as the context, how do you think being told to wait 3-4 more months for crucial balance changes (after being told that the patch before, and the one before that) sounds to me and other players?

    Is telling you that there's no way to keep me as a player nor my guild constructive? No, but hopefully it hits home hard enough that you make changes and it ends up being constructive for the players that still remain.
    Edited by Zheg on March 4, 2016 5:52PM
  • Turelus
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    So now I know we're being watched by the overlords I guess I better make posts with better structure.

    This one is aimed a little more at ZOS but feel free to debate the points.

    Earlier Information Releases.
    Start the feedback topics before things hit PTS, right after the last update is posted. If the development period is going to be three months let's use those three months to debate about the changes and offer better solutions.

    Monthly(Weekly) DevBlogs
    Release a developer blog each week, one from Rich about general road ahead, one from Brian about PvP updates, one from Eric about skills/items updates and one from the lead PvE developer (I am really sorry I don't know your name! I am a dirty PvP player).
    This gives everyone an update each month for each area of the game, not too much pressure on those division heads as it's a month write up and we as players get something nice to read each week.

    More Internal Data
    When ZOS came out and showed the internal data for AP made by players I was amazed to see just how low the average AP/Day was. Previously I had no idea just what others would earn in a casual gaming session and once I had that knowledge I could look at the 600+ days required to skill up and agree that the Alliance War skill line changes were good.
    Far too often we just get told something and are given no information as to how you reached that conclusion, help us understand what you looked at to see the changes you're making. Also I really really like graph ***.

    Explain the Company Structure.
    Tell us who is on Eric's team, let them have names and faces! We see a few developers on ESO Live from time to time but these are more often the big names. Give us a tour of your offices so we can see where and how you work, let us in a little.
    We as players know very little about how you work and what structures you have in place, the ESO Live Life at ZOS segments are already a great start on this.

    Don't be Scared to Say No.
    Be willing to say "No, we are not going to do that" sure there will be rage but this is your game and we would rather have an answer than check the forums every day to see a 54 page thread still without a Developer answer. I would rather know that you're not going to do something for sure than sit waiting and wondering.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • b92303008rwb17_ESO
    b92303008rwb17_ESO
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Also if you're not going to bring constructive posts to this thread please don't post, so far it's been a pretty good back and forth debate with a lot of good feedback that I hope ZOS are reading. (WTB @ZOS_RichLambert /lurk)

    We are reading and keeping an eye on this thread, and do appreciate the constructive discussion so far.

    /lurk

    This kind of canned response is not so constructive though.
  • Sallington
    Sallington
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    Turelus wrote: »
    So now I know we're being watched by the overlords I guess I better make posts with better structure.

    This one is aimed a little more at ZOS but feel free to debate the points.

    Earlier Information Releases.
    Start the feedback topics before things hit PTS, right after the last update is posted. If the development period is going to be three months let's use those three months to debate about the changes and offer better solutions.

    Monthly(Weekly) DevBlogs
    Release a developer blog each week, one from Rich about general road ahead, one from Brian about PvP updates, one from Eric about skills/items updates and one from the lead PvE developer (I am really sorry I don't know your name! I am a dirty PvP player).
    This gives everyone an update each month for each area of the game, not too much pressure on those division heads as it's a month write up and we as players get something nice to read each week.

    More Internal Data
    When ZOS came out and showed the internal data for AP made by players I was amazed to see just how low the average AP/Day was. Previously I had no idea just what others would earn in a casual gaming session and once I had that knowledge I could look at the 600+ days required to skill up and agree that the Alliance War skill line changes were good.
    Far too often we just get told something and are given no information as to how you reached that conclusion, help us understand what you looked at to see the changes you're making. Also I really really like graph ***.

    Explain the Company Structure.
    Tell us who is on Eric's team, let them have names and faces! We see a few developers on ESO Live from time to time but these are more often the big names. Give us a tour of your offices so we can see where and how you work, let us in a little.
    We as players know very little about how you work and what structures you have in place, the ESO Live Life at ZOS segments are already a great start on this.

    Don't be Scared to Say No.
    Be willing to say "No, we are not going to do that" sure there will be rage but this is your game and we would rather have an answer than check the forums every day to see a 54 page thread still without a Developer answer. I would rather know that you're not going to do something for sure than sit waiting and wondering.

    +1 For more transparency. The more we know, the less we come up with our own wacky theories for what is happening behind the closed, locked doors at ZOS headquarters.
    Daggerfall Covenant
    Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
    Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
    Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
    Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||
  • Preyfar
    Preyfar
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    One of my bigger frustrations is that you'll see patch notes, and 30+ monster skills (which we can't access) will be updated, but standard skills like Toppling Charge remain ridiculously broken. Critical Rush appear to have pretty much the EXACT SAME pathfinding as Toppling Charge, yet one works while the other is broken and unreliable. Why does one work, one not? Why is a major Templar DPS skill allowed to remain broken for so long?

    We were told months ago by ZOS to wait for the next major update (Thieves Guild) for fixes. We're there now and they're still not fixed. Templars were asking/begging for one skill to get fixed, and it was pushed off. If it was too hard to fix, or it was waiting on another sub system, fine... just let us know. Don't keep us in the dark.

    If this game wasn't combat focused, I could understand some minor things not being addressed right away, but the fact is it IS combat based, and combat has been lingering for ages.
    Edited by Preyfar on March 4, 2016 6:04PM
  • b92303008rwb17_ESO
    b92303008rwb17_ESO
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    Sallington wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    So now I know we're being watched by the overlords I guess I better make posts with better structure.

    This one is aimed a little more at ZOS but feel free to debate the points.

    Earlier Information Releases.
    Start the feedback topics before things hit PTS, right after the last update is posted. If the development period is going to be three months let's use those three months to debate about the changes and offer better solutions.

    Monthly(Weekly) DevBlogs
    Release a developer blog each week, one from Rich about general road ahead, one from Brian about PvP updates, one from Eric about skills/items updates and one from the lead PvE developer (I am really sorry I don't know your name! I am a dirty PvP player).
    This gives everyone an update each month for each area of the game, not too much pressure on those division heads as it's a month write up and we as players get something nice to read each week.

    More Internal Data
    When ZOS came out and showed the internal data for AP made by players I was amazed to see just how low the average AP/Day was. Previously I had no idea just what others would earn in a casual gaming session and once I had that knowledge I could look at the 600+ days required to skill up and agree that the Alliance War skill line changes were good.
    Far too often we just get told something and are given no information as to how you reached that conclusion, help us understand what you looked at to see the changes you're making. Also I really really like graph ***.

    Explain the Company Structure.
    Tell us who is on Eric's team, let them have names and faces! We see a few developers on ESO Live from time to time but these are more often the big names. Give us a tour of your offices so we can see where and how you work, let us in a little.
    We as players know very little about how you work and what structures you have in place, the ESO Live Life at ZOS segments are already a great start on this.

    Don't be Scared to Say No.
    Be willing to say "No, we are not going to do that" sure there will be rage but this is your game and we would rather have an answer than check the forums every day to see a 54 page thread still without a Developer answer. I would rather know that you're not going to do something for sure than sit waiting and wondering.

    +1 For more transparency. The more we know, the less we come up with our own wacky theories for what is happening behind the closed, locked doors at ZOS headquarters.

    I do my best to believe people at ZOS are listening, more or less, and working really hard to reflect opinions from player base on the game. But when it comes to transparency, it seems they are kind of stubborn here.
    Edited by b92303008rwb17_ESO on March 4, 2016 6:08PM
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sallington wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    So now I know we're being watched by the overlords I guess I better make posts with better structure.

    This one is aimed a little more at ZOS but feel free to debate the points.

    Earlier Information Releases.
    Start the feedback topics before things hit PTS, right after the last update is posted. If the development period is going to be three months let's use those three months to debate about the changes and offer better solutions.

    Monthly(Weekly) DevBlogs
    Release a developer blog each week, one from Rich about general road ahead, one from Brian about PvP updates, one from Eric about skills/items updates and one from the lead PvE developer (I am really sorry I don't know your name! I am a dirty PvP player).
    This gives everyone an update each month for each area of the game, not too much pressure on those division heads as it's a month write up and we as players get something nice to read each week.

    More Internal Data
    When ZOS came out and showed the internal data for AP made by players I was amazed to see just how low the average AP/Day was. Previously I had no idea just what others would earn in a casual gaming session and once I had that knowledge I could look at the 600+ days required to skill up and agree that the Alliance War skill line changes were good.
    Far too often we just get told something and are given no information as to how you reached that conclusion, help us understand what you looked at to see the changes you're making. Also I really really like graph ***.

    Explain the Company Structure.
    Tell us who is on Eric's team, let them have names and faces! We see a few developers on ESO Live from time to time but these are more often the big names. Give us a tour of your offices so we can see where and how you work, let us in a little.
    We as players know very little about how you work and what structures you have in place, the ESO Live Life at ZOS segments are already a great start on this.

    Don't be Scared to Say No.
    Be willing to say "No, we are not going to do that" sure there will be rage but this is your game and we would rather have an answer than check the forums every day to see a 54 page thread still without a Developer answer. I would rather know that you're not going to do something for sure than sit waiting and wondering.

    +1 For more transparency. The more we know, the less we come up with our own wacky theories for what is happening behind the closed, locked doors at ZOS headquarters.

    I do my best to believe people at ZOS are listening, more or less, and working really hard to reflect opinions from player base on the game. But when it comes to transparency, it seems they are kind of stubborn here.

    I've always wondered if this is a higher ups thing, as in the suits who run the show rather than the development team. The one thing I always forget when comparing ZOS to CCP is that CCP doesn't answer to a higher power, ZOS are still a company under a bigger banner.

    However again, that wondering could be answered for us if they were open about how their company is set up, then the speculation like mines goes away.

    *Edit.

    As an entirely unrelated to the thread thing, I have been home from work for 45mins now sat at my PC and not logged in because I am refreshing to see how this thread progresses. :sweat_smile:
    Edited by Turelus on March 4, 2016 6:13PM
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Zheg
    Zheg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sallington wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    So now I know we're being watched by the overlords I guess I better make posts with better structure.

    This one is aimed a little more at ZOS but feel free to debate the points.

    Earlier Information Releases.
    Start the feedback topics before things hit PTS, right after the last update is posted. If the development period is going to be three months let's use those three months to debate about the changes and offer better solutions.

    Monthly(Weekly) DevBlogs
    Release a developer blog each week, one from Rich about general road ahead, one from Brian about PvP updates, one from Eric about skills/items updates and one from the lead PvE developer (I am really sorry I don't know your name! I am a dirty PvP player).
    This gives everyone an update each month for each area of the game, not too much pressure on those division heads as it's a month write up and we as players get something nice to read each week.

    More Internal Data
    When ZOS came out and showed the internal data for AP made by players I was amazed to see just how low the average AP/Day was. Previously I had no idea just what others would earn in a casual gaming session and once I had that knowledge I could look at the 600+ days required to skill up and agree that the Alliance War skill line changes were good.
    Far too often we just get told something and are given no information as to how you reached that conclusion, help us understand what you looked at to see the changes you're making. Also I really really like graph ***.

    Explain the Company Structure.
    Tell us who is on Eric's team, let them have names and faces! We see a few developers on ESO Live from time to time but these are more often the big names. Give us a tour of your offices so we can see where and how you work, let us in a little.
    We as players know very little about how you work and what structures you have in place, the ESO Live Life at ZOS segments are already a great start on this.

    Don't be Scared to Say No.
    Be willing to say "No, we are not going to do that" sure there will be rage but this is your game and we would rather have an answer than check the forums every day to see a 54 page thread still without a Developer answer. I would rather know that you're not going to do something for sure than sit waiting and wondering.

    +1 For more transparency. The more we know, the less we come up with our own wacky theories for what is happening behind the closed, locked doors at ZOS headquarters.

    I do my best to believe people at ZOS are listening, more or less, and working really hard to reflect opinions from player base on the game. But when it comes to transparency, it seems they are kind of stubborn here.

    Because of the (ironic...) lack of transparency, all I can do it speculate as to the cause of the lack of transparency. From the 2.5+ years I've been around, it's always seemed like when Gina has the green light to get involved in conversations (particularly crucial and heated ones) she will. Going up the chain, it's possibly Jessica since she's the lead for communications (though I don't think she's the problem), but probably (?) Matt Firor? I'll go back to the vet level removal as an example. Clearly the forums were talking about this daily for a 9+ month period and in a frenzy trying to get ZOS to respond (myself included). SOMEONE high up in the chain has to be making decisions to not reply to those threads or provide insight on the topics, and while Wrobel is a visible target for much of player frustration, whoever has been making these 'silence' decisions is perhaps the worst culprit of them all.
  • Anhedonie
    Anhedonie
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    It's because combat team consists of siths. They draw their power from darker emotions such as fear, anger, hatred (look at templar thread) and use absolute measures (destroying classes and abilities instead of balancing them, or making them overpowered instead of buffing them).
    Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.
  • WalkingLegacy
    WalkingLegacy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll post this from the other thread, would be nice to see things like this - even on the PTS
    1462198242985166989.png

  • ZOS_GinaBruno
    ZOS_GinaBruno
    Community Manager
    I'll post this from the other thread, would be nice to see things like this - even on the PTS
    1462198242985166989.png

    That's actually something we've been talking about doing in the future (assuming we're both looking at the Developer Comments section).

    Edit: By "the future", that just means we don't have time to do it for Thieves Guild release next week, but potentially starting in one of the incrementals.
    Edited by ZOS_GinaBruno on March 4, 2016 6:39PM
    Gina Bruno
    Senior Creator Engagement Manager
    Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter
    Staff Post
  • WalkingLegacy
    WalkingLegacy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll post this from the other thread, would be nice to see things like this - even on the PTS
    1462198242985166989.png

    That's actually something we've been talking about doing in the future (assuming we're both looking at the Developer Comments section).

    Edit: By "the future", that just means we don't have time to do it for Thieves Guild release next week, but potentially starting in one of the incrementals.

    Yes ma'am, exactly that.
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anhedonie wrote: »
    It's because combat team consists of siths. They draw their power from darker emotions such as fear, anger, hatred (look at templar thread) and use absolute measures (destroying classes and abilities instead of balancing them, or making them overpowered instead of buffing them).

    Darth Wrobel

    4444272.jpg

    Sorry I couldn't help myself with this one. :tongue:

    *Totally not an edit because I typod the meme picture...

    Edited by Turelus on March 4, 2016 7:01PM
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • nimander99
    nimander99
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    yodased wrote: »
    Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything

    I liked and agreed with entirety of you remarks, well said as usual @yodased but I feel I must correct you on one thing, irl we see examples every single day of 'vocal minorities' high-jacking entire business', political movements, governments and laws, bureaucracies and especially sub reddits.

    Just a small correction from a slightly sarcastic dunmer ;)

    Edit: I lied, I don't like lying it just doesn't sit well with me. I'm extremely sarcastic all the time. Gawd I feel better now that I corrected that, phew!
    Edited by nimander99 on March 4, 2016 7:18PM
    I AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    ∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
    "Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
    "moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
    "MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
    "MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
    "MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
    "MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
    "MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
    "MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
    "MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
    "MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???

    Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP450
  • b92303008rwb17_ESO
    b92303008rwb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    
    
    
    Zheg wrote: »
    Sallington wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    So now I know we're being watched by the overlords I guess I better make posts with better structure.

    This one is aimed a little more at ZOS but feel free to debate the points.

    Earlier Information Releases.
    Start the feedback topics before things hit PTS, right after the last update is posted. If the development period is going to be three months let's use those three months to debate about the changes and offer better solutions.

    Monthly(Weekly) DevBlogs
    Release a developer blog each week, one from Rich about general road ahead, one from Brian about PvP updates, one from Eric about skills/items updates and one from the lead PvE developer (I am really sorry I don't know your name! I am a dirty PvP player).
    This gives everyone an update each month for each area of the game, not too much pressure on those division heads as it's a month write up and we as players get something nice to read each week.

    More Internal Data
    When ZOS came out and showed the internal data for AP made by players I was amazed to see just how low the average AP/Day was. Previously I had no idea just what others would earn in a casual gaming session and once I had that knowledge I could look at the 600+ days required to skill up and agree that the Alliance War skill line changes were good.
    Far too often we just get told something and are given no information as to how you reached that conclusion, help us understand what you looked at to see the changes you're making. Also I really really like graph ***.

    Explain the Company Structure.
    Tell us who is on Eric's team, let them have names and faces! We see a few developers on ESO Live from time to time but these are more often the big names. Give us a tour of your offices so we can see where and how you work, let us in a little.
    We as players know very little about how you work and what structures you have in place, the ESO Live Life at ZOS segments are already a great start on this.

    Don't be Scared to Say No.
    Be willing to say "No, we are not going to do that" sure there will be rage but this is your game and we would rather have an answer than check the forums every day to see a 54 page thread still without a Developer answer. I would rather know that you're not going to do something for sure than sit waiting and wondering.

    +1 For more transparency. The more we know, the less we come up with our own wacky theories for what is happening behind the closed, locked doors at ZOS headquarters.

    I do my best to believe people at ZOS are listening, more or less, and working really hard to reflect opinions from player base on the game. But when it comes to transparency, it seems they are kind of stubborn here.

    Because of the (ironic...) lack of transparency, all I can do it speculate as to the cause of the lack of transparency. From the 2.5+ years I've been around, it's always seemed like when Gina has the green light to get involved in conversations (particularly crucial and heated ones) she will. Going up the chain, it's possibly Jessica since she's the lead for communications (though I don't think she's the problem), but probably (?) Matt Firor? I'll go back to the vet level removal as an example. Clearly the forums were talking about this daily for a 9+ month period and in a frenzy trying to get ZOS to respond (myself included). SOMEONE high up in the chain has to be making decisions to not reply to those threads or provide insight on the topics, and while Wrobel is a visible target for much of player frustration, whoever has been making these 'silence' decisions is perhaps the worst culprit of them all.

    As not being transparent enough is one thing and doing a bad balancing job another, Wrobel's team still have to take responsibility for the current messed up situation.
    Edited by b92303008rwb17_ESO on March 5, 2016 1:41PM
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