WalkingLegacy wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of the team who is responsible for balance. It's just too difficult when I try to realistically think about the task of balancing everything as a whole.
However, because it's necessary to strive for balance, perhaps the combat team could implement a system that removes the 4 classes that we currently have (Templar, Dragonknight, Nightblade, Sorcerer) and instead allows us to choose 3 of the 12 skill lines for building our character.
Then, the issue is not about balancing classes, but instead, about balancing skill lines. This would drastically reduce the amount of work for the combat team and also give players more options. Then we wouldn't have whole groups of people complaining that their entire class feels useless to them (as we currently have with Templars).
I don't think that solves an issue of balance because we would still have the same trees. Instead of classes, it would be skill lines. Same problem, different way the skills are presented to us.
They've convulated their own issue of balance with Vet ranks and Champion Points.
I like the point @eliisra conveys.
ZoS or Matt presenting to us what path they're going down in regards to the game direction would probably clarify things for us.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »@NBrookus
I've been advocating some of the devs play with us as well. Could go hand in hand at strengthing community to dev relations.
If you watch the videos they did on ESO Live of them playing....it was unmotivating and personally left me wondering if they play MMOs, do they even play their own?
Shoot, I'd even group it up with Gina and Jessica - I bet they play better than Wrobel.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »@GrumpyDuckling I smell what you're cooking
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of the team who is responsible for balance. It's just too difficult when I try to realistically think about the task of balancing everything as a whole.
However, because it's necessary to strive for balance, perhaps the combat team could implement a system that removes the 4 classes that we currently have (Templar, Dragonknight, Nightblade, Sorcerer) and instead allows us to choose 3 of the 12 skill lines for building our character.
Then, the issue is not about balancing classes, but instead, about balancing skill lines. This would drastically reduce the amount of work for the combat team and also give players more options. Then we wouldn't have whole groups of people complaining that their entire class feels useless to them (as we currently have with Templars).
I don't think that solves an issue of balance because we would still have the same trees. Instead of classes, it would be skill lines. Same problem, different way the skills are presented to us.
They've convulated their own issue of balance with Vet ranks and Champion Points.
I like the point @eliisra conveys.
ZoS or Matt presenting to us what path they're going down in regards to the game direction would probably clarify things for us.
What I like about the idea of removing classes (which has been stated before, by others) and only focusing on skill lines is that then an entire class won't be deemed "worthless" by players, like we currently have with Templars. I'm not saying that removing classes would fix balance, but it makes it easier to balance combat.
Can you imagine the difficulty and stress of having to balance 12 skill lines that are permanently locked into 4 specific classes? Why not remove the restrictions and only have to worry about the skill lines themselves?
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of the team who is responsible for balance. It's just too difficult when I try to realistically think about the task of balancing everything as a whole.
However, because it's necessary to strive for balance, perhaps the combat team could implement a system that removes the 4 classes that we currently have (Templar, Dragonknight, Nightblade, Sorcerer) and instead allows us to choose 3 of the 12 skill lines for building our character.
Then, the issue is not about balancing classes, but instead, about balancing skill lines. This would drastically reduce the amount of work for the combat team and also give players more options. Then we wouldn't have whole groups of people complaining that their entire class feels useless to them (as we currently have with Templars).
I don't think that solves an issue of balance because we would still have the same trees. Instead of classes, it would be skill lines. Same problem, different way the skills are presented to us.
They've convulated their own issue of balance with Vet ranks and Champion Points.
I like the point @eliisra conveys.
ZoS or Matt presenting to us what path they're going down in regards to the game direction would probably clarify things for us.
What I like about the idea of removing classes (which has been stated before, by others) and only focusing on skill lines is that then an entire class won't be deemed "worthless" by players, like we currently have with Templars. I'm not saying that removing classes would fix balance, but it makes it easier to balance combat.
Can you imagine the difficulty and stress of having to balance 12 skill lines that are permanently locked into 4 specific classes? Why not remove the restrictions and only have to worry about the skill lines themselves?
Because, for someone hired to do exactly that job, it shouldn't be impossible. ESO has less classes and class specific skills than almost everyone of their competitors. Haven't played in years, but gw2 had 8 classes and 5 skill lines for each. ESO has 4 and 3, almost a quarter. If it can't be done with current staff, hire people that can achieve it, all of their competitors are capable of it, 'stress and difficulty' seem to be nonfactors for them, why should ESO get a pass?
I hope part of the way forward is taking a more collegial attitude on the forums. Allegations that developers do not read the Forums, "hate" certain types of players, or classes conveyed by spiteful and provocative, insulting language just muddy the waters. The way forward begins not with Wrobel or anyone else explaining themselves, but with constructive feedback and behaving as gentleman and women. I hope your thread heads in that direction!
Once that culture has changed on these forums, we can begin the important work of improving the game.
Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of the team who is responsible for balance. It's just too difficult when I try to realistically think about the task of balancing everything as a whole.
However, because it's necessary to strive for balance, perhaps the combat team could implement a system that removes the 4 classes that we currently have (Templar, Dragonknight, Nightblade, Sorcerer) and instead allows us to choose 3 of the 12 skill lines for building our character.
Then, the issue is not about balancing classes, but instead, about balancing skill lines. This would drastically reduce the amount of work for the combat team and also give players more options. Then we wouldn't have whole groups of people complaining that their entire class feels useless to them (as we currently have with Templars).
Take a look at the game and you'll see even more players who simply don't care and keep playing.
I won't argue ZOS need better communication, but just because we (the vocal forums community) think something should be doesn't mean it should be or that it's best for the game.
If ZOS were to listen to the forums then we would see every single class have the ability to one shot each other because everyone demands their class should be buffed and anything that beats them should be nerfed.
There are some good posts now and then which give good structured feedback about how ZOS could make changes to the game, but most are just "rahhh rahhh X is horrible!" "waaa waaa Y killed me" "Booo hooo you nerfed Z so I can't win every fight any more".
Adapt or die, if you have a good idea post it in a way other that throwing personal insults at the lead developers and asking for them to be fired.
It's rarely wise to go with the vocal majority. More often than not I hope ZoS will not give in to what's being asked for on the forums. Take the people who clamour for AoE cap removal. They can roughly be divided in two groups:
- a small group who misses the old days when players within a very narrow range of builds could wreak havoc, and believe removing the AoE cap and reinstating dynamic ult will restore them to godhood.
- a very large group who are fed up with zergs, and have been led to believe by the first group that removing AoE caps and reinstating dynamic ult are the anser, but have not actually thought this through for themselves.
The first group is just being egocentric. The latter has a genuine complaint, but no credible solution. The only thing ZoS combat team can reasonably take away from this is that zerging is a problem.
The thing is they are being reasonably communicative now, more so than in the past. However every time they say an off hand comment like "AP caps" the forums explodes with threads saying they're idiots, fire them, they don't play the game etc.
I agree fully they could be more open with how they work on things, I have seen some of the best player/developer communication possible in the MMO genre whilst playing EVE Online. However the difference in the feedback given from that community and this one is very different.
I do agree their development cycles and deployment times for issues seem to be completely messed up. No bug should take three months to fix if it's addressed on a PTS (it shouldn't even make it to live) but the community can't keep looking at specific developers and saying "everything is this persons fault!"
However when we as a community start growing up and trying to engage these people with rational and polite threads we'll get better communication. This can be seen on the forums in some threads where the Developers or community team have taken the time to reply to a well structured and calm question.
Honestly though I don't think anything at this point will make this community happy.
They make threads asking for feedback, they give us reason as to why they did/didn't do something. Then they get raged at because they didn't go in the direction we wanted them to, even if they have actual rational and reasoned answers as to why.
Rich would make /lurk posts to show he had seen the thread or would be watching it, then people just attacked him for not replying to it in any way or giving more feedback.
From what I understand we seem to want developers who have a permanent presence on the forums replying to every individual issue and the only answer they can give is "yes, you're 100% right we'll do what you want".
In closing I again agree we do need better communication and ZOS need to step up with bug fixing releases, however as I and others have said we as a community need to step up on our manners constructive information offered.
Because, for someone hired to do exactly that job, it shouldn't be impossible. ESO has less classes and class specific skills than almost everyone of their competitors. Haven't played in years, but gw2 had 8 classes and 5 skill lines for each. ESO has 4 and 3, almost a quarter. If it can't be done with current staff, hire people that can achieve it, all of their competitors are capable of it, 'stress and difficulty' seem to be nonfactors for them, why should ESO get a pass?
People saying 'you have no clue about the big picture', mhm, but it's really not hard to tell from the forums. The AOE caps poll had +-4000 people voting. You'd never have half that vote nowadays.
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"
Let's make sure we are on the same page here
You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.
None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.
Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.
You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.
Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.
They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.
Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.
Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?
To be honest, I kinda expect this game to revert into a "Skyrim online" or simliar. As in a couple of new PvE DLC's every year with mostly solo content. There's still a market for that, due to being TES franchise. Also cheap to maintain even if you dont win any awards lol.
Just feel they wont be able to deliver the game they set out to make. This was suppose to be a kinda top 10 MMORPG with PvX content including AvAvA and endgame PvE. Competing with games like WoW, SWTOR, Lineage and Tera. But seems they lack the expertise, staff, finances and likely support and understanding from higher management to run that kind of machinery.
They're not even using the cash shop to full potential and missing out on so much revenue. Stuff like barber, race change and ofc good looking costumes, hair styles, alliance change, weapon skins and similar regenerates so much micro transactions in online games. It should have been in-game 1 year ago.
I personally think ESO will keep going for many years to come, but as a more modest game. I also doubt Wrobel will still be able to handle combat, itemization, classes, CP and skills in the future. That just nuts for one person, even there's more staff involved. He must be so burned out that guy, kinda understand why he's not getting PvP combat.
SuraklinPrime wrote: »I'd speculate that half the problem is that when you design a game you don't *play* the game and experience it the way players do - so both your feelings about things in game and the buttons/skills/rotations you use will not be the same. This will lead to decisions that sometimes confuse the heck out of the player base.
Also I have a feeling that sometimes the devs may listen to a small subset of players who are not really representative of the majority of players. The streamers and the pros who's views are certainly of value but are obviously going to biased by how they play not how the rest of us play - what makes them happy may not necessarily work for everyone and skills they find good or bad with specialist max/min builds may not really feature in the same way for many of us.
Personally I have been disheartened by the changes to stamina over the last few major patches as they seem to miss that for a stamina build we have to get skills, blocks, sprints, sneaks, break frees and dodges all out of one resource pool which now has penalties for dodging more than once and for daring to block in combat - whereas as magicka builds can happily do all these things out of a secondary pool and recharge their main pool at all times with no penalty.
Add the incoming punishments in the CP changes and the refusal to scale key skills off physical as well as magic damage and it all adds up to what seems like a fundamental lack of understanding of how their game mechanics work 'on the ground' - and that leads to a lack of faith in the decisions being taken.
ESO live doesn't help because often the people talking there sometimes come off like they are trolling those affected most - perhaps that is not intentional but it rubs salt in the wounds when all you want to do is play a game and have an even chance of success.
I hope part of the way forward is taking a more collegial attitude on the forums. Allegations that developers do not read the Forums, "hate" certain types of players, or classes conveyed by spiteful and provocative, insulting language just muddy the waters. The way forward begins not with Wrobel or anyone else explaining themselves, but with constructive feedback and behaving as gentleman and women. I hope your thread heads in that direction!
Once that culture has changed on these forums, we can begin the important work of improving the game.
Sallington wrote: »I hope part of the way forward is taking a more collegial attitude on the forums. Allegations that developers do not read the Forums, "hate" certain types of players, or classes conveyed by spiteful and provocative, insulting language just muddy the waters. The way forward begins not with Wrobel or anyone else explaining themselves, but with constructive feedback and behaving as gentleman and women. I hope your thread heads in that direction!
Once that culture has changed on these forums, we can begin the important work of improving the game.
Do you have any idea of the amount of constructive feedback that the community has given them? Take your fedora off.