VMSA set drop rate

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Everyone has already stated the vMSA gear grind is not an issue when you can reliably clear the arena. No one said "run it 20 times to get one ring" I said IF you run in 20 times you are guaranteed to have at least one item you are looking for.

It is an issue (I can clear the arena and do that regularly).
And you're NOT guaranteed to get the item you want with a decent trait. So many people were complaining that they have everything except the item they needed after 20+ runs.
I started vMA recently, but Ive been farming vWGT since it was released on a regular basic. Do you think I have the set I need with good traits? Lolnope. Probably I do not deserve it (got no death, speedrun and other achieves before it was nerfed ). I also saw people who got full set by farming embers on the first boss, without completing the dungeon. I saw people getting "perfect" items on their 1st try as well.
Also please note that staves with defending trait are useless and cant count as "item I want".

I never said if you run it 20 times you will get THE ONE item you want. I said if you run it 20 times you will get at least one item you are looking for. Whatever that means (set piece or weapon with perfect trait etc). If that is not the case make the number 50. The point is, the sets / trait combinations are possible to obtain by completing content. Rng is Rng, I even mentioned in my previous post I had a friend who got the weapon I was looking for on his first run with a low score, what is your point?

I am willing to concede it may make sense for the sets to only drop in useful traits but I can't agree with any change beyond that. And even a change like that I feel is giving even more into instant gratification gaming which I think is abhorrent. You may well be farming vWGT everyday since launch and don't have the perfect set, I bet you at least have a complete set no? Even if they are not perfect traits. Why do you deserve perfect traits? Farm more and get them. If you have a full set and every piece isn't divines then you have no sympathy from me. I currently rock a well fitted bloodspawn as thats the only one I got in medium. Still doing spindle every day with no luck.

If everyone is battling RNG then that is as fair as it gets. Potentially the only fair aspect about this game. Some will hit the jackpot others will be screwed, sounds like life no? Am I pissed when I run Darkshade or WGT for the 100th time and dont get the helm but my guildmate who just reached 16 with <100 cp gets it on the first go with divines.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Everyone has already stated the vMSA gear grind is not an issue when you can reliably clear the arena. No one said "run it 20 times to get one ring" I said IF you run in 20 times you are guaranteed to have at least one item you are looking for.

It is an issue (I can clear the arena and do that regularly).
And you're NOT guaranteed to get the item you want with a decent trait. So many people were complaining that they have everything except the item they needed after 20+ runs.
I started vMA recently, but Ive been farming vWGT since it was released on a regular basic. Do you think I have the set I need with good traits? Lolnope. Probably I do not deserve it (got no death, speedrun and other achieves before it was nerfed ). I also saw people who got full set by farming embers on the first boss, without completing the dungeon. I saw people getting "perfect" items on their 1st try as well.
Also please note that staves with defending trait are useless and cant count as "item I want".

I never said if you run it 20 times you will get THE ONE item you want. I said if you run it 20 times you will get at least one item you are looking for. Whatever that means (set piece or weapon with perfect trait etc). If that is not the case make the number 50. The point is, the sets / trait combinations are possible to obtain by completing content. Rng is Rng, I even mentioned in my previous post I had a friend who got the weapon I was looking for on his first run with a low score, what is your point?

My point is that with random drop system there is a chance that you will never get the item you need, no matter how good you are. Im not talking about instant rewards, Im saying that this is completely underwhelming and unfair (because you friend with bad score got the weapon on the first run while I know people with good place on leaderboards that still dont have it).
Speaking of vMA, items with bad traits (robust rings of magicka sets and defending staves) cant be counted because crafted weapons and even vr14 jewelry would be better stat-wise. So its pointless to use such items, theyre only good for deconstruction.
20 runs? 50 runs? And then waht, 100+? Considering that average vMA run for most of people who farm it is 1-2 hours, thats an enourmous amount of grind. And during this grind you will only lose gold on repairs and potions, and in the worst case scenario you will only get a couple of ingots and maybe purple tempers (at least most of DSA rewards could be sold). Its supposed to be the top content in this game, and many people cant even beat it, why it should be so unrewarding?

You may well be farming vWGT everyday since launch and don't have the perfect set, I bet you at least have a complete set no? Even if they are not perfect traits. Why do you deserve perfect traits? Farm more and get them. If you have a full set and every piece isn't divines then you have no sympathy from me. I currently rock a well fitted bloodspawn as thats the only one I got in medium. Still doing spindle every day with no luck.

I got 5th piece a couple of weeks ago. Also, 2 of those pieces are head and shoulder so I cant use them anyway. Traits are, well... fitted mostly ofc.
Besides, are you trying to say that its fair and reasonable when 1 person cant get the set for months, and another gets it without even beating the dungeon (ember farming)? Lol. Why do those people deserve the set and I dont?

If everyone is battling RNG then that is as fair as it gets. Potentially the only fair aspect about this game. Some will hit the jackpot others will be screwed, sounds like life no? Am I pissed when I run Darkshade or WGT for the 100th time and dont get the helm but my guildmate who just reached 16 with <100 cp gets it on the first go with divines.

Then why are you defending such system? Are you a mazochist or just like wasting your time?
0,000000001% drop chances are stupid and belong to "p2w" cash grab games.

abhimat1999rwb17_ESO · February 2016

I wish there was a token system in vMA which would atleast let us buy the weapon of our choice(with random traits maybe), coz after like 50 runs of vMA i still didn't get a single destro staff and eventually gave up on the game. Considering it took me around an hour to complete one run and after wasting that many hours to get nothing i want i call all that ***.

Baconlad · February 2016

If you do the math and take six sets with ten pieces each, then multiply that number for how many traits there are, then take into account droprate from the chests and the fact that you can get the exact same piece of gear twice in a row...the chances of getting a perfect set is so low you might as well not even try. Its about as high as winning 1000 dollars from a 1 dollar scratch off. You waste your time and may never see it. How many people did you see running footman? Healer? And how many of them had perfect traits? Now how many people ran vdsa? STILL people wear those sets, they have perfect traits on them and vdsa groups are STILL running them

s7732425ub17_ESO · February 2016

Comparing VMA grind to IC dungeon grinds is night and day. It's way, way, way easier and faster to get all of the Maelstrom gear.

They *need* to change IC dungeons to be more on par with Maelstrom. Every time I go into Maelstrom, I get multiple pieces of gear. They may not be the correct traits, but at least I'm getting something. Compare this to IC dungeons where I get 1 piece of gear every two runs.

Callous2208 · February 2016

I thought we all agreed to just call it VMA now. I'll crawl away now as I have nothing useful to add to the conversation.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Baconlad wrote: »

And please don't try to come in and say that because I can't complete vmsa I shouldn't get the sets, I would be satisfied with v15 healthy perma rings from Nmsa, and agian completing it is not the issue. I am not asking for a nerf to the difficulty, I like the fact that if one day I do complete it will get on the leader board as a temp . I LOVE a challenge in this game, one of my favorite things to do in pve is challenge myself and a buddy to duo four man content. I'm ok with failing in ESO. What I'm complaining about is strictly THESE SETS, nothing else with how many traits there are available, how many sets you compete for, and how many different pieces drop, there is way too little chance to get a drop you need for a build. The only reason I think its not an issue for so many players, is that the sets are so niche, and 99% of players don't need them, there for not very many people WANT these sets at all and just decon them or vender them

Your right, the sets should drop is useful traits, or traits need to be looked at to make sure they are all valuable and not just a few.

But to say 99% of players don't need the set as justification for making it easy to get is a bit short cited. They are one of the few armor sets with jewelry in the game, I know a lot of people that would slot a 5pc winterborn or success instead of willpower. While I agree very few builds will use the 5pc by itself the sets themselves are indeed quite interesting to players looking to make alternative builds.

I disagree with your point on the vDSA gear. I think that only a few groups run that content and then sell their wares at the guild shop. Those sets are also obsolete given the introduction of IC and wrothgar sets (both of which have a more difficult grind). In fact the only ones I see going after the v14 stuff are the ones who "cant be bothered to farm" the IC and worthgar sets. (tanks maybe an exception with the footman, but prariah is a better set no?)

@Baconlad I respect you think the grind is intense. I am telling you it is NOT. You can continue to shout and complain about traits and rng or you can complete the content and get the gear. By trying to make the gear easier to get in the traits you want, you are making the game easier and "dumbing it down". This is an instant gratification model that is not sustainable. Also by allowing people to sell rings (making them BoE) you will actually further extend the wealth gap of players that are able to farm higher level gear pieces and those that "don't like farming". There is already a great deal of wealth disparity in the game in the form of trading syndicates and people already complain about the top 1% of players. You are just going to give incentives those players to complete the content more than they already do by giving them a means to farm gold while farming weps so guys like you don't have to complete the content. This gold can be used to buy additional mats, or Cyrodill vendor gear further increasing player disparity. You want to make guys like me (who can do the arena) rich. I just don't think you have thought through all of the implications of what you are asking for. You just know that getting the gear you want is hard and you don't like it. Nothing you have said is justification for all the negatives that would come if maelstrom gear was BoE.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Comparing VMA grind to IC dungeon grinds is night and day. It's way, way, way easier and faster to get all of the Maelstrom gear.

They *need* to change IC dungeons to be more on par with Maelstrom. Every time I go into Maelstrom, I get multiple pieces of gear. They may not be the correct traits, but at least I'm getting something. Compare this to IC dungeons where I get 1 piece of gear every two runs.

WGT is:
-faster
-even in the bad day loot at least covers the cost of repairs and potions; and even when I dont die in vMA, the amount of gold on my char still slowly decreases, also theres more trash vr15 items for deconstruction.
-is a group dungeon, at least I dont feel claustrophobic
-is less laggy and buggy
-bosses drop treasure vault keys

Baconlad · February 2016

Ok...so what your saying tensei, and this is all based off of your comments here, is that you are in fact an elitist. You think that because someone who doesn't have the time or care to farm for something for weeks or potentially MONTHS to get gear is a "casual". Ok...that is what we "casuals" call people who think that because they don't see a problem with running the same content every day...for once again, potentially months. We call them elitists. Somone who whines and cries because they only want one percent of the population to have the best gear...we call them elitists, and you are...an elitist. Now ill state again for i believe the third time? I do not have a problem with farming! I do not have a problem with grinding. I actually think there should be a healthy grind (lets say two weeks every night for two to three hours a day) on gear. So lets look at comparable powered sets and how long they take to grind shall we? Footmans/ healer, already stated they are in a good amount of time to grind for, fits great in that time frame. Even quicker if you buy, or you could dedicate the above time to get them. What about imperial city? The sewers sets cost 5 k stones per piece. Average 2-3 k a day? Not bad, also you can buy to decrease time. What about wrothgar WB sets? It took me two weeks to get five piece briarheart v16. Completing WB quests and farming chests after dailies, would be longer to farm robust jewels, I would maybe a max two more weeks of grinding? Could be wrong, at least you're only competing against two other sets for gear, HALF the amount of sets of vmsa. We could look at agility/ endurance/ willpower too. They take about two weeks of straight grinding to obtain for each set. And that's getting the good traits. Lastly I am not including WGT sets because I am aware of at least one set that drops there that is VERY powerful. There for I do not believe they compete and refuse to comment about dropprate for those sets. Bring that up in another post for those who care about that.

Ok...so after every post I've presented in reference to your comments, tell me why you still believe these particular sets should be so hard to obtain? Are they over powered? Are they BIS for DPS? Are they highly sought after? I'm betting that all the above answers are "NO". You can claim that any one of these answers is yes, but I don't think you would be being honest with us here. Lastly brother, why do you have a problem with us dirty casuals obtaining these (very niche build type) gear sets? Are you affraid that the gear will give us more skill than you? Are you affraid that well be better than you in cyrodil? ( oh, lol...im sorry you don't have time to go to cyrodil, your too busy grinding vet maelstrom arena for the 50th time, its a good thing you're not looking for a specific set in vmsa, cause youd be screwed!). Don't try and say you don't have a problem with us getting these sets, as thinking somone has to run vma 50 times to get perfect trait gear is exactly having a problem with casuals getting the sets.

We players used to get the gear, we were allowed to get rewarded for our playing. Honestly now I feel punished. "you're not an elite player without a job? You don't deserve the sets." BTW you have yet to obtain a three piece jewelry set of permafrost in healthy. I bet if you went into VMA, specifically for that, added all the runs you completed, you'd be well over fifty runs which for running every night, two-three hours a night, that's almost two months worth! EVERY NIGHT NOT PLAYING ANY OTHER CONTENT....THATS *** DUMB. for a set that is equal to in power to a set that would take less than two weeks in other content. God then you try to say "MEH! IT WILL DAMAGE THE ECONOMY!" that's such a horse *** comment I don't even know what to say to it.

Baconlad · February 2016

Oh haha, I forgot, footmans v14 obsolete? Healer obsolete? Tell that to trials tanks who *still to this day* run footmans/ histbark, they may have other builds as well, but DK tanks for trial run them...as they are...wait for it NOT obsolete. Healer set 5 piece can still net you highest heal numbers in game. Period, try it yourself.

Vaoh · February 2016

@Seido_Tensei_ So let me get this straight...

You have completed Vet Maelstrom Arena and continue to do so all of time since you are super good at ESO, plus brag about it (congrats, I guess?).

You enjoy the fact that RNG has blessed you, and not other players. BoP is a good thing and the fact that pretty much nobody will ever get the set jewelry/sets they want is also good. You want it, you gotta grind it, even if it means running it HUNDREDS of times. Perfectly fine that like 95% of players attempting to get their jewelry sets have given up, since they are not entitled to those sets regardless their number of completions. (But of course, you already have what you need from VMA)

If you have farmed vWGT and vICP every single day since launch (173 days...) and you have looted 5-pieces of a set you want, yet need to replace your well-fitted traits or get pieces in different slots to wear Monster pieces, then too bad. You are not entitled, and for being angry you are an instant-gratification gamer.

I never got my Bloodspawn Helm in the trait I wanted after farming Vet Spindlecluth a bunch of times, but have seen people get Divines helmets first try. Therefore this totally supports my point that vMA set jewelry should be unobtainable to practically everyone.... again people who don't appreciate that you will never get your sets even if you farm it continuously have dumbed this game down for me....

I REALLY hope you will re-read the posts on this thread and understand one day why people disagree with your toxic and elitist views.

I have run nMA 60+ times now for blue V15 versions of the sets, since it is quicker and easier. No need for BiS versions, since all I really wanted was 3x Winterborn jewelry. On my 3rd run I got a V15 blue arcane amulet (

). No jewelry since then for that set. I have 5 amulets, 1 ring. All different sets besides the Winterborn Amulet and bad traits.

THINK about how many runs that is, and to not get even close to what you want. Is this truly fair?

@Xeven Exactly! It took me awhile to finally quit Maelstrom Arena, since I was mildly interested in getting armor pieces for cosmetic reasons. Plus there was CPs and that ever-so tiny chance at getting what I wanted... Quit it weeks ago, rarely ever willing to attempt it anymore.

socomred · February 2016

I dunno the drop rate does seem pretty low, I was leveling in vmsa on my alt and first run I got a vet 1 great sword with sharpened I am now almost vet 4 and not another drop since. And the XP in vmsa is bad

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Those sets are also obsolete given the introduction of IC and wrothgar sets (both of which have a more difficult grind). In fact the only ones I see going after the v14 stuff are the ones who "cant be bothered to farm" the IC and worthgar sets. (tanks maybe an exception with the footman, but prariah is a better set no?)

Lol @ Pariah set.
Yeah those sets are so obsolete that any random footman ring Im getting (i still do dsa for fun) sells instantly.

I even sold golden one for ~200k.

Baconlad I respect you think the grind is intense. I am telling you it is NOT.

I got it already, you're the lucky one who got all the good stuff from vMA instantly. But these forums and my guildies tell me that what you're saying is not truth. There are people with leaderboard scores who still cant get the weapons they need.
So the grind is real. Sorry, its just facts. Your luck vs a lot of people who werent that lucky.

By trying to make the gear easier to get in the traits you want, you are making the game easier and "dumbing it down". This is an instant gratification model that is not sustainable.

"No fun allowed" system is much less sustainable. And this is not related to content difficulty so I dont see how being able to reliably farm the items would "dumb down" the game.
vMA is one of the hardest dungeons in the game, there should be something to encourage people so they have the motivation to beat it. It should be really hard, but also very rewarding. This would be fair.
You're telling us that grindyness is very good for the game... I can tell you that these rng elements actually make people so "happy" they have no motivation to continue vMA (or Ic dungeons) when they get their items or give up on that. Why even bother if you're just wasting time and gold. Hard modes must be rewarding.

You are just going to give incentives those players to complete the content more than they already do by giving them a means to farm gold while farming weps so guys like you don't have to complete the content. This gold can be used to buy additional mats, or Cyrodill vendor gear further increasing player disparity. You want to make guys like me (who can do the arena) rich.

Nice try, but BoP crap actually crippled ESO economy much more than anything else. There's no market for anything except crafting mats. Before IC release, good players could make some money on selling BoE trial sets (like that stam pvp set from Sanctum, cant remember the name or Healer/Footman stuff). These days IC ganking or mindless resource farm is more profitable than doing the hardest content in game, and this is absolutely horrible for the game. But well... There's a lot of threads about this already.
And btw, you look really silly with your "look! I finished vMA! Im so cool". I also do vMA, and I dont even consider it "hard", I played much harder games. I beat it on my second try (first try was too late and I was too tired to continue so I quit at stage 8)
Its more cheesy and buggy than challenging once you know the mechanics. Many people give up on it or dont bother simply because there's not much incentive to beat it, regular rewards are crappy, and not everyone can or want to farm it for months.
To be clear - there's nothing wrong with farming, but you should be able to get your items in reasonable time (like golden vr16 crafted sets, willpower stuff etc). And effort should be rewarded. This is a game so it shouldnt be too brutal and punishing to players and this doesnt mean dumbing it down. Challenging content? Hell yeah. Never-ending grinds for BoP items? Hell no. Simply because all players must be on equal footing. Its not like lottery, almost no one seriously expects to win a lottery. But everyone expects to get full salary for their job and not 1% to get $5k, 5% to get $1k and 94% to get $10.

Baconlad · February 2016

Above three posters explained my frustrations to the "T". Thank you for your insightful posts, better than I explained. @ZOS_GinaBruno I hope you're reading this...

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Doncellius wrote: »

@Seido_Tensei_ So let me get this straight...

You have completed Vet Maelstrom Arena and continue to do so all of time since you are super good at ESO, plus brag about it (congrats, I guess?).

You enjoy the fact that RNG has blessed you, and not other players. BoP is a good thing and the fact that pretty much nobody will ever get the set jewelry/sets they want is also good. You want it, you gotta grind it, even if it means running it HUNDREDS of times. Perfectly fine that like 95% of players attempting to get their jewelry sets have given up, since they are not entitled to those sets regardless their number of completions. (But of course, you already have what you need from VMA)

If you have farmed vWGT and vICP every single day since launch (173 days...) and you have looted 5-pieces of a set you want, yet need to replace your well-fitted traits or get pieces in different slots to wear Monster pieces, then too bad. You are not entitled, and for being angry you are an instant-gratification gamer.

I never got my Bloodspawn Helm in the trait I wanted after farming Vet Spindlecluth a bunch of times, but have seen people get Divines helmets first try. Therefore this totally supports my point that vMA set jewelry should be unobtainable to practically everyone.... again people who don't appreciate that you will never get your sets even if you farm it continuously have dumbed this game down for me....
I REALLY hope you will re-read the posts on this thread and understand one day why people disagree with your toxic and elitist views.

I have run nMA 60+ times now for blue V15 versions of the sets, since it is quicker and easier. No need for BiS versions, since all I really wanted was 3x Winterborn jewelry. On my 3rd run I got a V15 blue arcane amulet ( ). No jewelry since then for that set. I have 5 amulets, 1 ring. All different sets besides the Winterborn Amulet and bad traits.

THINK about how many runs that is, and to not get even close to what you want. Is this truly fair?

@Xeven Exactly! It took me awhile to finally quit Maelstrom Arena, since I was mildly interested in getting armor pieces for cosmetic reasons. Plus there was CPs and that ever-so tiny chance at getting what I wanted... Quit it weeks ago, rarely ever willing to attempt it anymore.

@Doncellius I will be the first to admit I am not very good, I just try really really hard. Don't know where you get that elitest mentality, nothing I have written was posed as "hahaha I got it and u cant" type of statement. I am just voicing a counter view to those who would try to make content easier. That is not the way to go in my opinion. I don't have every piece of armor in perfect trait, I am still rocking a well fitted blood spawn and I run the dungeon EVERY SINGLE DAY. Why are you trying to call me out?

I grind just like everyone else, sometimes I am blessed by rng sometimes I am not. Blood spawn is an example where I am not. vMSA I seem to have decent luck getting jewelry (again not in perfect traits). Why do you need perfect traits? I assure you the well fitted helm on my Stamplar is the least of my worries. Its the entitlement to these "perfect" sets that I find disgusting and entirely indicative of "instant gratification" or "carebear gamers" that you seem to represent.

Everyone wants their ideal sets in perfect traits.To me, that is one of the few reasons to continue doing content in ESO. If everyone could get perfect traits in 1 or 2 runs how long before new players have no one left to run content with? I heal a vet spindle everyday for my shot at the helm. Often I run into others farming, more often they are newer players ranking up undaunted getting skill points and clearing achievements. Pugs are rare enough as it is, and often don't work well because most experience people already have dedicated dungeon groups that they complete content with. Taking away more reasons for people to run dungeons is not a good idea. That happens when you make it easier for people to get their idea of a "perfect set piece". I want people to get better at the game and be able to complete content with ease. Not for their sake but for mine, the game is much more enjoyable when people who are equipped and knowledgeable about the game get together and do things. Either fighting in PvP or dungeons.

I sympathize with the grind, I really really do. The issue I have with the original post is that @Baconlad was complaining about content he was finishing 50% of the way through at best. That is not an issue with rng, complete the damn arena then complain about drops, no room to complain before then in my opinion.

60+ runs on nMSA? You act like that is a lot. Sorry but this is not me being elitist this is you being entitled. I ranked up an alt entirely through nMSA. 10-v16. It took at least 3 runs per vet rank, meaning I did 48 runs just to max out. Probably did another 25 runs between 10-v1. So I would lowball around 70+ runs I did on normal to finish my Stamplar.

@Doncellius why do you through numbers out there like the quantity is supposed to mean something? IT DOES NOT MEAN SQUAT. Everyone is still looking for perfect traits on their gear. I don't know a single person who is "done" (this is PS4 mind you). Please get over yourself and quit calling people who don't mind working for gear "elitist". Nah man, I just have fun with the game and complete content and you know what? The loot drops, funny how that works. I get very frustrated how this entitled attitude is catered to in ESO.

I only share my experience because that's all I can base anything on. I don't like straw-man or hypothetical arguments, so all I can do is ground my opinion based on my experience. Apologies if that seems elitist, it is not meant to be.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Those sets are also obsolete given the introduction of IC and wrothgar sets (both of which have a more difficult grind). In fact the only ones I see going after the v14 stuff are the ones who "cant be bothered to farm" the IC and worthgar sets. (tanks maybe an exception with the footman, but prariah is a better set no?)

Lol @ Pariah set.
Yeah those sets are so obsolete that any random footman ring Im getting (i still do dsa for fun) sells instantly. I even sold golden one for ~200k.

Baconlad I respect you think the grind is intense. I am telling you it is NOT.

I got it already, you're the lucky one who got all the good stuff from vMA instantly. But these forums and my guildies tell me that what you're saying is not truth. There are people with leaderboard scores who still cant get the weapons they need.
So the grind is real. Sorry, its just facts. Your luck vs a lot of people who werent that lucky.

By trying to make the gear easier to get in the traits you want, you are making the game easier and "dumbing it down". This is an instant gratification model that is not sustainable.

"No fun allowed" system is much less sustainable. And this is not related to content difficulty so I dont see how being able to reliably farm the items would "dumb down" the game.
vMA is one of the hardest dungeons in the game, there should be something to encourage people so they have the motivation to beat it. It should be really hard, but also very rewarding. This would be fair.
You're telling us that grindyness is very good for the game... I can tell you that these rng elements actually make people so "happy" they have no motivation to continue vMA (or Ic dungeons) when they get their items or give up on that. Why even bother if you're just wasting time and gold. Hard modes must be rewarding.

You are just going to give incentives those players to complete the content more than they already do by giving them a means to farm gold while farming weps so guys like you don't have to complete the content. This gold can be used to buy additional mats, or Cyrodill vendor gear further increasing player disparity. You want to make guys like me (who can do the arena) rich.

Nice try, but BoP crap actually crippled ESO economy much more than anything else. There's no market for anything except crafting mats. Before IC release, good players could make some money on selling BoE trial sets (like that stam pvp set from Sanctum, cant remember the name or Healer/Footman stuff). These days IC ganking or mindless resource farm is more profitable than doing the hardest content in game, and this is absolutely horrible for the game. But well... There's a lot of threads about this already.
And btw, you look really silly with your "look! I finished vMA! Im so cool". I also do vMA, and I dont even consider it "hard", I played much harder games. I beat it on my second try (first try was too late and I was too tired to continue so I quit at stage 8)
Its more cheesy and buggy than challenging once you know the mechanics. Many people give up on it or dont bother simply because there's not much incentive to beat it, regular rewards are crappy, and not everyone can or want to farm it for months.
To be clear - there's nothing wrong with farming, but you should be able to get your items in reasonable time (like golden vr16 crafted sets, willpower stuff etc). And effort should be rewarded. This is a game so it shouldnt be too brutal and punishing to players and this doesnt mean dumbing it down. Challenging content? Hell yeah. Never-ending grinds for BoP items? Hell no. Simply because all players must be on equal footing. Its not like lottery, almost no one seriously expects to win a lottery. But everyone expects to get full salary for their job and not 1% to get $5k, 5% to get $1k and 94% to get $10.

@KoshkaMurka I have only encouraged people to complete the arena. Nothing I stated was in effort to show up those who have not. If you read my post I provide justification for why I think completing the arena is worth while.

No I am not very good at ESO. My first run took over 10 hours and I finished with a score below < 200. It took weeks of not doing other things in order to complete it.

No I do not have everything out of the arena, but I have completed sets in non perfect traits after running the arena several times trying to improve my score.

Maybe I was in error saying it was not a grind, maybe what I was trying to say is that others are on more difficult if not longer grinds then the ones you guys are complaining about. You trying to make me out to be an elitist is unfair just because I have grinded harder than you. Why should I be punished for working hard to get gear? Why am I an elitist just because I chose to not do pvp, dungeons, trials, farm, quest, level alts or any number of things you can do in ESO so I could complete the arena? and why cant you do the same if that is what it requires?

Some people will be able to complete content with ease, others will have to put in considerably more effort to complete the same content. The difference in choosing to put in the effort should decide who receives the reward. If you do not agree with that, then you are the problem.

I only have a Templar, so was I salty when I was watching NB's with Sorc alts trounce the arena in the first week and then run around cyrodil with their master weapons? Hell yes I was.....so I buckled down and got the arena done, whatever it took. Why does that make me an elitist? I thought working hard was the exact opposite......

Humatiel · February 2016

@Seido_Tensei_

You win the internet, could not have been put better.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Baconlad wrote: »

Ok...so what your saying tensei, and this is all based off of your comments here, is that you are in fact an elitist. You think that because someone who doesn't have the time or care to farm for something for weeks or potentially MONTHS to get gear is a "casual". Ok...that is what we "casuals" call people who think that because they don't see a problem with running the same content every day...for once again, potentially months. We call them elitists. Somone who whines and cries because they only want one percent of the population to have the best gear...we call them elitists, and you are...an elitist. Now ill state again for i believe the third time? I do not have a problem with farming! I do not have a problem with grinding. I actually think there should be a healthy grind (lets say two weeks every night for two to three hours a day) on gear. So lets look at comparable powered sets and how long they take to grind shall we? Footmans/ healer, already stated they are in a good amount of time to grind for, fits great in that time frame. Even quicker if you buy, or you could dedicate the above time to get them. What about imperial city? The sewers sets cost 5 k stones per piece. Average 2-3 k a day? Not bad, also you can buy to decrease time. What about wrothgar WB sets? It took me two weeks to get five piece briarheart v16. Completing WB quests and farming chests after dailies, would be longer to farm robust jewels, I would maybe a max two more weeks of grinding? Could be wrong, at least you're only competing against two other sets for gear, HALF the amount of sets of vmsa. We could look at agility/ endurance/ willpower too. They take about two weeks of straight grinding to obtain for each set. And that's getting the good traits. Lastly I am not including WGT sets because I am aware of at least one set that drops there that is VERY powerful. There for I do not believe they compete and refuse to comment about dropprate for those sets. Bring that up in another post for those who care about that.

Ok...so after every post I've presented in reference to your comments, tell me why you still believe these particular sets should be so hard to obtain? Are they over powered? Are they BIS for DPS? Are they highly sought after? I'm betting that all the above answers are "NO". You can claim that any one of these answers is yes, but I don't think you would be being honest with us here. Lastly brother, why do you have a problem with us dirty casuals obtaining these (very niche build type) gear sets? Are you affraid that the gear will give us more skill than you? Are you affraid that well be better than you in cyrodil? ( oh, lol...im sorry you don't have time to go to cyrodil, your too busy grinding vet maelstrom arena for the 50th time, its a good thing you're not looking for a specific set in vmsa, cause youd be screwed!). Don't try and say you don't have a problem with us getting these sets, as thinking somone has to run vma 50 times to get perfect trait gear is exactly having a problem with casuals getting the sets.

We players used to get the gear, we were allowed to get rewarded for our playing. Honestly now I feel punished. "you're not an elite player without a job? You don't deserve the sets." BTW you have yet to obtain a three piece jewelry set of permafrost in healthy. I bet if you went into VMA, specifically for that, added all the runs you completed, you'd be well over fifty runs which for running every night, two-three hours a night, that's almost two months worth! EVERY NIGHT NOT PLAYING ANY OTHER CONTENT....THATS *** DUMB. for a set that is equal to in power to a set that would take less than two weeks in other content. God then you try to say "MEH! IT WILL DAMAGE THE ECONOMY!" that's such a horse *** comment I don't even know what to say to it.

@Baconlad Yes, everyone will get gear at a different rate based on the time they put in. I play ESO in the evening after work like most people. I cannot and do not play for 12 hours a day every day. So I would be a "casual" as well. I am calling you out because not having time should not be an excuse. So if it takes you months and another person a day, I see nothing wrong with that as long as its rng. Rng is the one balanced thing in eso....it don't care who / what class you are. Why would you change that?

@Baconlad your assumption that you need to be unemployed to successful at this game is wrong, and your insinuation that I am unemployed is also off base. You see who is being an elitist entitled person now? What if you were to learn I indeed had a life with real word attachments and relationships and still managed to complete ESO content. What would be your excuse then?

These straw-man arguments that you guys like to build are fun and all, but they are not based on anything other than assumption. NOW I will be an elitist and say, if you think that the only reason I have been able to be marginally successful in ESO because I have "no life"....then I am probably better than you in every way. ESO or not.

You do what you have to do in life....and if you have to sacrifice playing other content to get better at a specific piece, that is no different. Why would it be? Some people will have to sacrifice less than others, I had to sacrifice a lot, maybe you will need to as well.

This entire thread has made me sick.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

End of the day, everyone I know is getting sick of the arena it seems. We call it "detention" or "the principal's office." Its a place you are forced to go after School/work, but you really dont want to. FYI, I am a practicing attorney that works 50-60 hours a week, so take that's for what its worth. I never got around to running it last week. When Sunday came around, I was like Meh okay ill do it. I then went to the arena and the portal wouldn't appear so I gave up. Honestly, I'm glad it was broken, because I did better things with my afternoon.

Maybe a little off topic, but here is where I am at: I am down to a handful of pieces of gear I need from places like Prison and WGT. Those dungeons are no longer fun for me. For some perspective, I have 9 WGT Helms (4 light, 1 medium, 4 heavy) and 20 pieces of SPC, but still no boots, so I cant run the set the way I want to, and that doesnt even address the fact that most of the traits are garbage. I have nearly as many Imperium pieces (might be more, but would need to check), but no gloves, so again, I cant run a tank set with monster sets, so it is all useless.

I am not going to make a claim about how many runs I have completed, because I frankly dont know, but clearly, it's a fair amount. It is no longer fun for me. I am not quite as far along in my ICP grind, but the motivation to do it is all but gone. In theory, a perfect Scathing set looks great on paper, but the tests show it doesnt outperform Julianos, so really whats the point?!? I am not sure I have a use for anything else in there, and 40 minutes a crack for 0.5 set pieces on average is not my idea of a good trade-off.

In terms of VMA, There are 3 things I am after that I still dont have. Sharpened Inferno, Bow, 2H Weapon (dont care which). The only one I really care about is the Inferno staff because it is best in slot for trials for my build. The other 2 would be nice for a PvP build I am working on, but not game shattering. And there is the real rub. I could get that staff on my next run or i could get it on my 10,000th run. That is the problem with RNG. Some of the player base is always going to get screwed and some will experience a windfall.

I have been playing since Beta. I am new to MMOs but I went ALL in on this one. My in-game time needs a calendar, not a watch to measure. I am strongly considering moving on to something else because the gear grind is absurd. Its not rewarding; it is punishing. They need to implement some mechanism to allow people to work towards goals with a reasonable time frame to complete. I am not saying you should get things on your first run, but nobody should be forced to run a dungeon 100+ times to get the gear they want. I will stop ranting now I suppose.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, everyone I know is getting sick of the arena it seems. We call it "detention" or "the principal's office." Its a place you are forced to go after School/work, but you really dont want to. FYI, I am a practicing attorney that works 50-60 hours a week, so take that's for what its worth. I never got around to running it last week. When Sunday came around, I was like Meh okay ill do it. I then went to the arena and the portal wouldn't appear so I gave up. Honestly, I'm glad it was broken, because I did better things with my afternoon.

Maybe a little off topic, but here is where I am at: I am down to a handful of pieces of gear I need from places like Prison and WGT. Those dungeons are no longer fun for me. For some perspective, I have 9 WGT Helms (4 light, 1 medium, 4 heavy) and 20 pieces of SPC, but still no boots, so I cant run the set the way I want to, and that doesnt even address the fact that most of the traits are garbage. I have nearly as many Imperium pieces (might be more, but would need to check), but no gloves, so again, I cant run a tank set with monster sets, so it is all useless.

I am not going to make a claim about how many runs I have completed, because I frankly dont know, but clearly, it's a fair amount. It is no longer fun for me. I am not quite as far along in my ICP grind, but the motivation to do it is all but gone. In theory, a perfect Scathing set looks great on paper, but the tests show it doesnt outperform Julianos, so really whats the point?!? I am not sure I have a use for anything else in there, and 40 minutes a crack for 0.5 set pieces on average is not my idea of a good trade-off.

In terms of VMA, There are 3 things I am after that I still dont have. Sharpened Inferno, Bow, 2H Weapon (dont care which). The only one I really care about is the Inferno staff because it is best in slot for trials for my build. The other 2 would be nice for a PvP build I am working on, but not game shattering. And there is the real rub. I could get that staff on my next run or i could get it on my 10,000th run. That is the problem with RNG. Some of the player base is always going to get screwed and some will experience a windfall.

I have been playing since Beta. I am new to MMOs but I went ALL in on this one. My in-game time needs a calendar, not a watch to measure. I am strongly considering moving on to something else because the gear grind is absurd. Its not rewarding; it is punishing. They need to implement some mechanism to allow people to work towards goals with a reasonable time frame to complete. I am not saying you should get things on your first run, but nobody should be forced to run a dungeon 100+ times to get the gear they want. I will stop ranting now I suppose.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Props to the grind even with a demanding job, but I don't think you understand. There is no requirement that says you have to complete every set in perfect traits, nor anything that says you need the inferno staff. What you are asking for is a full proof way to obtain the gear you want, and I am telling you that is not the answer. You need to look at your expectations for the game and exactly why you desire to complete the gear sets.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Yes there is a possibility you will never complete your "perfect set". Why is this an issue? Why does this game have to cater to a bunch of type A's or people with perfectionist complexes? Everyone wants perfect gear, very few will obtain perfect gear for their desired builds. The chance of you being one of those players is determine by luck/effort. Why is that a problem? It seems very fair, and keeps players completing content. If you get board, you can always choose to do something else and give up. If you think you shouldn't have to potentially give up something to enjoy other aspects of the game then what the hell man?

You mentioned scathing mage and how it looks perfect on paper but tests indicate julianos is better. That an issue with developers and crafted vs looted armor sets not a statement on rng. Yes in my opinion the dropped sets are harder to obtain so they should in theory be better but if that is not the case, don't blame rng. Its not rng's fault.

I cannot tell you how to find enjoyment from ESO, but I am telling you that making loot easier to obtain will not make the game more enjoyable, it will just allow players to feel "finished", at which point they would probably move on anyway.

Xjcon · February 2016

This thread escalated quick. I have to ask one question tho. WHY does one type of player want to hold the other type of player back?

Has anyone ever got a straight answer as to why ZoS wants the gear grind to be so long? Most people wan't their build so they can begin playing how they want right?

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Xjcon wrote: »

This thread escalated quick. I have to ask one question tho. WHY does one type of player want to hold the other type of player back?

Has anyone ever got a straight answer as to why ZoS wants the gear grind to be so long? Most people wan't their build so they can begin playing how they want right?

@Xjcon I am not trying to hold anyone back, in fact quite the opposite. Your question relies on the assumption that you cannot play the way you want without perfect gear. If you want perfect gear and are working towards getting it, then technically you are "playing the way you want". Everyone has choices and choices have consequences, so yes you can play the way you want, it just may not be as easy as other play styles.

gear =/= build.

Build includes: gear + skills

At any point you can have any combination of gear+skills it just may not be viable (and they never said it would be). You can just choose to take on ESO as you wish even if that makes your experience artificially more difficult due to your own choices.

s7732425ub17_ESO · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Comparing VMA grind to IC dungeon grinds is night and day. It's way, way, way easier and faster to get all of the Maelstrom gear.

They *need* to change IC dungeons to be more on par with Maelstrom. Every time I go into Maelstrom, I get multiple pieces of gear. They may not be the correct traits, but at least I'm getting something. Compare this to IC dungeons where I get 1 piece of gear every two runs.

WGT is:
-faster
-even in the bad day loot at least covers the cost of repairs and potions; and even when I dont die in vMA, the amount of gold on my char still slowly decreases, also theres more trash vr15 items for deconstruction.
-is a group dungeon, at least I dont feel claustrophobic
-is less laggy and buggy
-bosses drop treasure vault keys

Absolute nonsense. Someone grinding VMA will be able to complete a full run in an hour 15 minutes tops. A full run is a guaranteed 3-4 set pieces and a high chance at a Maelstrom weapon. Repair costs are only 3k per run. And you can get by with cheap potions. Buggy and laggy? Probably just you.

Compare to WGT. An average group will take 30+ minutes to complete. You usually get 1 or 0 set piece drops. You have to run it 10 times to get enough tokens for the vault keys. Forming a group can take a long time, where with VMA you can just port in whenever you want to.

So it's significantly faster and easier to farm VMA for set pieces than WGT.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, everyone I know is getting sick of the arena it seems. We call it "detention" or "the principal's office." Its a place you are forced to go after School/work, but you really dont want to. FYI, I am a practicing attorney that works 50-60 hours a week, so take that's for what its worth. I never got around to running it last week. When Sunday came around, I was like Meh okay ill do it. I then went to the arena and the portal wouldn't appear so I gave up. Honestly, I'm glad it was broken, because I did better things with my afternoon.

Maybe a little off topic, but here is where I am at: I am down to a handful of pieces of gear I need from places like Prison and WGT. Those dungeons are no longer fun for me. For some perspective, I have 9 WGT Helms (4 light, 1 medium, 4 heavy) and 20 pieces of SPC, but still no boots, so I cant run the set the way I want to, and that doesnt even address the fact that most of the traits are garbage. I have nearly as many Imperium pieces (might be more, but would need to check), but no gloves, so again, I cant run a tank set with monster sets, so it is all useless.

I am not going to make a claim about how many runs I have completed, because I frankly dont know, but clearly, it's a fair amount. It is no longer fun for me. I am not quite as far along in my ICP grind, but the motivation to do it is all but gone. In theory, a perfect Scathing set looks great on paper, but the tests show it doesnt outperform Julianos, so really whats the point?!? I am not sure I have a use for anything else in there, and 40 minutes a crack for 0.5 set pieces on average is not my idea of a good trade-off.

In terms of VMA, There are 3 things I am after that I still dont have. Sharpened Inferno, Bow, 2H Weapon (dont care which). The only one I really care about is the Inferno staff because it is best in slot for trials for my build. The other 2 would be nice for a PvP build I am working on, but not game shattering. And there is the real rub. I could get that staff on my next run or i could get it on my 10,000th run. That is the problem with RNG. Some of the player base is always going to get screwed and some will experience a windfall.

I have been playing since Beta. I am new to MMOs but I went ALL in on this one. My in-game time needs a calendar, not a watch to measure. I am strongly considering moving on to something else because the gear grind is absurd. Its not rewarding; it is punishing. They need to implement some mechanism to allow people to work towards goals with a reasonable time frame to complete. I am not saying you should get things on your first run, but nobody should be forced to run a dungeon 100+ times to get the gear they want. I will stop ranting now I suppose.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Props to the grind even with a demanding job, but I don't think you understand. There is no requirement that says you have to complete every set in perfect traits, nor anything that says you need the inferno staff. What you are asking for is a full proof way to obtain the gear you want, and I am telling you that is not the answer. You need to look at your expectations for the game and exactly why you desire to complete the gear sets.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Yes there is a possibility you will never complete your "perfect set". Why is this an issue? Why does this game have to cater to a bunch of type A's or people with perfectionist complexes? Everyone wants perfect gear, very few will obtain perfect gear for their desired builds. The chance of you being one of those players is determine by luck/effort. Why is that a problem? It seems very fair, and keeps players completing content. If you get board, you can always choose to do something else and give up. If you think you shouldn't have to potentially give up something to enjoy other aspects of the game then what the hell man?

You mentioned scathing mage and how it looks perfect on paper but tests indicate julianos is better. That an issue with developers and crafted vs looted armor sets not a statement on rng. Yes in my opinion the dropped sets are harder to obtain so they should in theory be better but if that is not the case, don't blame rng. Its not rng's fault.

I cannot tell you how to find enjoyment from ESO, but I am telling you that making loot easier to obtain will not make the game more enjoyable, it will just allow players to feel "finished", at which point they would probably move on anyway.

Ill push back on a few things. I don't think anyone is entitled to anything unless they put in the effort. We seem to disagree as to whether luck should be a material factor/barrier to this despite putting in the effort. As it stands now, you could literally run this content a million times and not get what you want. That is obviously statistically unlikely for lots of different reasons, but hypothetically, it's possible. The much more real effect is that people that love this game get burnt out on specific content after a few hundred runs without success. Personally, I think that's a problem.

As for Perfect traits on sets, it is more of a frustration. No, you dont need perfect traits on things like SPC or Imperium. Healers and Tanks generally have a lot more flexibility with build types. That being said, you do need the actual pieces. I promise that SPC and Imperium will be requirements of healers and tanks for any competitive guild running the new trial. I would take boots in Training at this point (no they dont actually drop in that, but I think you get the point). I might not get a perfect set, but I should be able to complete a set with reasonable effort. We might have different definitions of the term "reasonable", but I find it hard to believe that most people would consider the status quo to be reasonable. IMO, the necessity to run the same content 200 times to do this is not a good balance, nor is it good for the health of the game. RNG is certainly a viable way to get people to mindlessly re-run content, but personally, I think there are better ways to accomplish this.

On other items, the trait matters a lot. A precise or defending Maelstrom staff on your front bar is NOT viable. It is less DPS than a crafted nirnhoned staff. If scathing ever gets buffed/fixed, my guess is that it will only be better than julianos if the traits are perfect, so this is in fact relevant to the RNG discussion. Traits for DPS sets Matter! Do I need them to clear WGT or Prison? Not in the slightness. But when it comes to leaderboards, having the BIS gear makes a huge difference. For me personally, I find enjoyment in competitive end-game content.

Right or wrong, the maelstrom weapons are BIS, and again, I see them being requirements for competitive leader board runs next patch. I dont know how far you have been in the new trial on the PTS server, but these bosses are serious. They have HUGE health bars and mechanics that cant be ignored. When guilds are looking to fill a core team and one DPS has BIS weapons and a few K more DPS than the next guy, the next guy is SOL, even if the next guy ran VMA 200 times and had bad luck.

My whole point is that while I understand that RNG is a simple and viable means to deal with a the vast majority of drops in an MMO, for the BIS stuff, I think the Devs can do better. They have already started doing this with helms next patch. I dont love the idea of a vendor, but I get it. They implemented a quasi token system in IC. Why is VMA left with pure, unforgiving, RNG? Seems like a token system of some sort makes a lot of sense. If you told me that 20 clears would get me a piece of my choosing, I would run it once a day for 2 months to get the weapons I needed. As it stands now, I barely find the motivation for a weekly clear. Maybe that's my problem, but I am certainly not alone.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, everyone I know is getting sick of the arena it seems. We call it "detention" or "the principal's office." Its a place you are forced to go after School/work, but you really dont want to. FYI, I am a practicing attorney that works 50-60 hours a week, so take that's for what its worth. I never got around to running it last week. When Sunday came around, I was like Meh okay ill do it. I then went to the arena and the portal wouldn't appear so I gave up. Honestly, I'm glad it was broken, because I did better things with my afternoon.

Maybe a little off topic, but here is where I am at: I am down to a handful of pieces of gear I need from places like Prison and WGT. Those dungeons are no longer fun for me. For some perspective, I have 9 WGT Helms (4 light, 1 medium, 4 heavy) and 20 pieces of SPC, but still no boots, so I cant run the set the way I want to, and that doesnt even address the fact that most of the traits are garbage. I have nearly as many Imperium pieces (might be more, but would need to check), but no gloves, so again, I cant run a tank set with monster sets, so it is all useless.

I am not going to make a claim about how many runs I have completed, because I frankly dont know, but clearly, it's a fair amount. It is no longer fun for me. I am not quite as far along in my ICP grind, but the motivation to do it is all but gone. In theory, a perfect Scathing set looks great on paper, but the tests show it doesnt outperform Julianos, so really whats the point?!? I am not sure I have a use for anything else in there, and 40 minutes a crack for 0.5 set pieces on average is not my idea of a good trade-off.

In terms of VMA, There are 3 things I am after that I still dont have. Sharpened Inferno, Bow, 2H Weapon (dont care which). The only one I really care about is the Inferno staff because it is best in slot for trials for my build. The other 2 would be nice for a PvP build I am working on, but not game shattering. And there is the real rub. I could get that staff on my next run or i could get it on my 10,000th run. That is the problem with RNG. Some of the player base is always going to get screwed and some will experience a windfall.

I have been playing since Beta. I am new to MMOs but I went ALL in on this one. My in-game time needs a calendar, not a watch to measure. I am strongly considering moving on to something else because the gear grind is absurd. Its not rewarding; it is punishing. They need to implement some mechanism to allow people to work towards goals with a reasonable time frame to complete. I am not saying you should get things on your first run, but nobody should be forced to run a dungeon 100+ times to get the gear they want. I will stop ranting now I suppose.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Props to the grind even with a demanding job, but I don't think you understand. There is no requirement that says you have to complete every set in perfect traits, nor anything that says you need the inferno staff. What you are asking for is a full proof way to obtain the gear you want, and I am telling you that is not the answer. You need to look at your expectations for the game and exactly why you desire to complete the gear sets.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Yes there is a possibility you will never complete your "perfect set". Why is this an issue? Why does this game have to cater to a bunch of type A's or people with perfectionist complexes? Everyone wants perfect gear, very few will obtain perfect gear for their desired builds. The chance of you being one of those players is determine by luck/effort. Why is that a problem? It seems very fair, and keeps players completing content. If you get board, you can always choose to do something else and give up. If you think you shouldn't have to potentially give up something to enjoy other aspects of the game then what the hell man?

You mentioned scathing mage and how it looks perfect on paper but tests indicate julianos is better. That an issue with developers and crafted vs looted armor sets not a statement on rng. Yes in my opinion the dropped sets are harder to obtain so they should in theory be better but if that is not the case, don't blame rng. Its not rng's fault.

I cannot tell you how to find enjoyment from ESO, but I am telling you that making loot easier to obtain will not make the game more enjoyable, it will just allow players to feel "finished", at which point they would probably move on anyway.

Ill push back on a few things. I don't think anyone is entitled to anything unless they put in the effort. We seem to disagree as to whether luck should be a material factor/barrier to this despite putting in the effort. As it stands now, you could literally run this content a million times and not get what you want. That is obviously statistically unlikely for lots of different reasons, but hypothetically, it's possible. The much more real effect is that people that love this game get burnt out on specific content after a few hundred runs without success. Personally, I think that's a problem.

As for Perfect traits on sets, it is more of a frustration. No, you dont need perfect traits on things like SPC or Imperium. Healers and Tanks generally have a lot more flexibility with build types. That being said, you do need the actual pieces. I promise that SPC and Imperium will be requirements of healers and tanks for any competitive guild running the new trial. I would take boots in Training at this point (no they dont actually drop in that, but I think you get the point). I might not get a perfect set, but I should be able to complete a set with reasonable effort. We might have different definitions of the term "reasonable", but I find it hard to believe that most people would consider the status quo to be reasonable. IMO, the necessity to run the same content 200 times to do this is not a good balance, nor is it good for the health of the game. RNG is certainly a viable way to get people to mindlessly re-run content, but personally, I think there are better ways to accomplish this.

On other items, the trait matters a lot. A precise or defending Maelstrom staff on your front bar is NOT viable. It is less DPS than a crafted nirnhoned staff. If scathing ever gets buffed/fixed, my guess is that it will only be better than julianos if the traits are perfect, so this is in fact relevant to the RNG discussion. Traits for DPS sets Matter! Do I need them to clear WGT or Prison? Not in the slightness. But when it comes to leaderboards, having the BIS gear makes a huge difference. For me personally, I find enjoyment in competitive end-game content.

Right or wrong, the maelstrom weapons are BIS, and again, I see them being requirements for competitive leader board runs next patch. I dont know how far you have been in the new trial on the PTS server, but these bosses are serious. They have HUGE health bars and mechanics that cant be ignored. When guilds are looking to fill a core team and one DPS has BIS weapons and a few K more DPS than the next guy, the next guy is SOL, even if the next guy ran VMA 200 times and had bad luck.

My whole point is that while I understand that RNG is a simple and viable means to deal with a the vast majority of drops in an MMO, for the BIS stuff, I think the Devs can do better. They have already started doing this with helms next patch. I dont love the idea of a vendor, but I get it. They implemented a quasi token system in IC. Why is VMA left with pure, unforgiving, RNG? Seems like a token system of some sort makes a lot of sense. If you told me that 20 clears would get me a piece of my choosing, I would run it once a day for 2 months to get the weapons I needed. As it stands now, I barely find the motivation for a weekly clear. Maybe that's my problem, but I am certainly not alone.

Getting burnt out I agree is an issue, but I think it happens at a much slower rate then the rate people would leave if they had completed gear. Gear is the primary playing motivation of an extremely large population of players. You allow people an easy means to finish their gear and when they have it, they will feel like the game is "complete". Or at the very least feel like they are not "behind" / "gimped". Taking away that motivation would lead to players leaving much faster then "getting burned out". I mean common, if you only play 2 hours a day....even after 2 months, how burnt out are you gonna feel? If you really are burnt out after that maybe the game is not for you? Why does it have to be?

Using leader board competition as an example of why traits matters is a poor choice. Leader board competition should be one of the very reasons effort should remain part of obtaining gear. How else do you reward teams of varying classes / skills? If everyone has BIS gear.....no one has BIS gear....it becomes the new normal. You have to reward those that continue to do complete and improve at content even if it is old or those that continue to invest in getting perfect gear so they can complete at a high level on the leader boards.

As for the monster helm vendor....I still don't have my kena helm so yes I will buy one. How do you think those that completed vWGT and got the helm feel about it? I bet not very good. But you know what? Those players are almost certainly better for the experienced they gained doing the dungeon. Would it reflect if we ever shared content (pve or pvp) I cant say, but you give people enough options to side step content and player skill and enjoyment will certainly suffer.

You are claiming that because 2 players could have a much different experience getting the same set that it is unfair. I am telling you that perception is wrong. It is fair in that it is unfair for all, such is life.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw you're a lawyer correct? How would you feel if I wanted to be a lawyer too? How would you feel if I wanted to go to the same law school or a better one, but I don't have as much time to study as you do? What if your LSAT exam was easier than mine?

I think that I should be able to take the LSAT as many times as I want and every time I get a question right it is added to an absolute total instead of calculated a test by test basis. That way I can work my way to a perfect LSAT and go to Harvard.

Like what the heck is wrong with people?

The only thing I hear: "Finding out I am not special and not blessed by rng breaks my immersion, so the game needs to make sure I am the same as everyone else otherwise its unfair because....ME"

Cuyler · February 2016

I agree with @Oreyn_Bearclaw. Out of nearly all the players I know completing maelstrom, it is considered a chore, not fun, a punishment and most are quickly burning out on the content. It's solo grind makes for a very desolate and "detention" style of gameplay that nearly everyone is doing just to get the BiS gear and will never go back. The fact the current meta has the BiS gear gated behind such content so few actually enjoy playing, is a serious fail IMO. We need to have better balance between an enjoyable experience and progression or the hardcore solo desolation grind mentality will cause more and more players to simply burnout and leave.

As I've stated previously gating BiS gear behind solo content in an MMO is not beneficial to this game @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, everyone I know is getting sick of the arena it seems. We call it "detention" or "the principal's office." Its a place you are forced to go after School/work, but you really dont want to. FYI, I am a practicing attorney that works 50-60 hours a week, so take that's for what its worth. I never got around to running it last week. When Sunday came around, I was like Meh okay ill do it. I then went to the arena and the portal wouldn't appear so I gave up. Honestly, I'm glad it was broken, because I did better things with my afternoon.

Maybe a little off topic, but here is where I am at: I am down to a handful of pieces of gear I need from places like Prison and WGT. Those dungeons are no longer fun for me. For some perspective, I have 9 WGT Helms (4 light, 1 medium, 4 heavy) and 20 pieces of SPC, but still no boots, so I cant run the set the way I want to, and that doesnt even address the fact that most of the traits are garbage. I have nearly as many Imperium pieces (might be more, but would need to check), but no gloves, so again, I cant run a tank set with monster sets, so it is all useless.

I am not going to make a claim about how many runs I have completed, because I frankly dont know, but clearly, it's a fair amount. It is no longer fun for me. I am not quite as far along in my ICP grind, but the motivation to do it is all but gone. In theory, a perfect Scathing set looks great on paper, but the tests show it doesnt outperform Julianos, so really whats the point?!? I am not sure I have a use for anything else in there, and 40 minutes a crack for 0.5 set pieces on average is not my idea of a good trade-off.

In terms of VMA, There are 3 things I am after that I still dont have. Sharpened Inferno, Bow, 2H Weapon (dont care which). The only one I really care about is the Inferno staff because it is best in slot for trials for my build. The other 2 would be nice for a PvP build I am working on, but not game shattering. And there is the real rub. I could get that staff on my next run or i could get it on my 10,000th run. That is the problem with RNG. Some of the player base is always going to get screwed and some will experience a windfall.

I have been playing since Beta. I am new to MMOs but I went ALL in on this one. My in-game time needs a calendar, not a watch to measure. I am strongly considering moving on to something else because the gear grind is absurd. Its not rewarding; it is punishing. They need to implement some mechanism to allow people to work towards goals with a reasonable time frame to complete. I am not saying you should get things on your first run, but nobody should be forced to run a dungeon 100+ times to get the gear they want. I will stop ranting now I suppose.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Props to the grind even with a demanding job, but I don't think you understand. There is no requirement that says you have to complete every set in perfect traits, nor anything that says you need the inferno staff. What you are asking for is a full proof way to obtain the gear you want, and I am telling you that is not the answer. You need to look at your expectations for the game and exactly why you desire to complete the gear sets.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Yes there is a possibility you will never complete your "perfect set". Why is this an issue? Why does this game have to cater to a bunch of type A's or people with perfectionist complexes? Everyone wants perfect gear, very few will obtain perfect gear for their desired builds. The chance of you being one of those players is determine by luck/effort. Why is that a problem? It seems very fair, and keeps players completing content. If you get board, you can always choose to do something else and give up. If you think you shouldn't have to potentially give up something to enjoy other aspects of the game then what the hell man?

You mentioned scathing mage and how it looks perfect on paper but tests indicate julianos is better. That an issue with developers and crafted vs looted armor sets not a statement on rng. Yes in my opinion the dropped sets are harder to obtain so they should in theory be better but if that is not the case, don't blame rng. Its not rng's fault.

I cannot tell you how to find enjoyment from ESO, but I am telling you that making loot easier to obtain will not make the game more enjoyable, it will just allow players to feel "finished", at which point they would probably move on anyway.

Ill push back on a few things. I don't think anyone is entitled to anything unless they put in the effort. We seem to disagree as to whether luck should be a material factor/barrier to this despite putting in the effort. As it stands now, you could literally run this content a million times and not get what you want. That is obviously statistically unlikely for lots of different reasons, but hypothetically, it's possible. The much more real effect is that people that love this game get burnt out on specific content after a few hundred runs without success. Personally, I think that's a problem.

As for Perfect traits on sets, it is more of a frustration. No, you dont need perfect traits on things like SPC or Imperium. Healers and Tanks generally have a lot more flexibility with build types. That being said, you do need the actual pieces. I promise that SPC and Imperium will be requirements of healers and tanks for any competitive guild running the new trial. I would take boots in Training at this point (no they dont actually drop in that, but I think you get the point). I might not get a perfect set, but I should be able to complete a set with reasonable effort. We might have different definitions of the term "reasonable", but I find it hard to believe that most people would consider the status quo to be reasonable. IMO, the necessity to run the same content 200 times to do this is not a good balance, nor is it good for the health of the game. RNG is certainly a viable way to get people to mindlessly re-run content, but personally, I think there are better ways to accomplish this.

On other items, the trait matters a lot. A precise or defending Maelstrom staff on your front bar is NOT viable. It is less DPS than a crafted nirnhoned staff. If scathing ever gets buffed/fixed, my guess is that it will only be better than julianos if the traits are perfect, so this is in fact relevant to the RNG discussion. Traits for DPS sets Matter! Do I need them to clear WGT or Prison? Not in the slightness. But when it comes to leaderboards, having the BIS gear makes a huge difference. For me personally, I find enjoyment in competitive end-game content.

Right or wrong, the maelstrom weapons are BIS, and again, I see them being requirements for competitive leader board runs next patch. I dont know how far you have been in the new trial on the PTS server, but these bosses are serious. They have HUGE health bars and mechanics that cant be ignored. When guilds are looking to fill a core team and one DPS has BIS weapons and a few K more DPS than the next guy, the next guy is SOL, even if the next guy ran VMA 200 times and had bad luck.

My whole point is that while I understand that RNG is a simple and viable means to deal with a the vast majority of drops in an MMO, for the BIS stuff, I think the Devs can do better. They have already started doing this with helms next patch. I dont love the idea of a vendor, but I get it. They implemented a quasi token system in IC. Why is VMA left with pure, unforgiving, RNG? Seems like a token system of some sort makes a lot of sense. If you told me that 20 clears would get me a piece of my choosing, I would run it once a day for 2 months to get the weapons I needed. As it stands now, I barely find the motivation for a weekly clear. Maybe that's my problem, but I am certainly not alone.

Getting burnt out I agree is an issue, but I think it happens at a much slower rate then the rate people would leave if they had completed gear. Gear is the primary playing motivation of an extremely large population of players. You allow people an easy means to finish their gear and when they have it, they will feel like the game is "complete". Or at the very least feel like they are not "behind" / "gimped". Taking away that motivation would lead to players leaving much faster then "getting burned out". I mean common, if you only play 2 hours a day....even after 2 months, how burnt out are you gonna feel? If you really are burnt out after that maybe the game is not for you? Why does it have to be?

Using leader board competition as an example of why traits matters is a poor choice. Leader board competition should be one of the very reasons effort should remain part of obtaining gear. How else do you reward teams of varying classes / skills? If everyone has BIS gear.....no one has BIS gear....it becomes the new normal. You have to reward those that continue to do complete and improve at content even if it is old or those that continue to invest in getting perfect gear so they can complete at a high level on the leader boards.

As for the monster helm vendor....I still don't have my kena helm so yes I will buy one. How do you think those that completed vWGT and got the helm feel about it? I bet not very good. But you know what? Those players are almost certainly better for the experienced they gained doing the dungeon. Would it reflect if we ever shared content (pve or pvp) I cant say, but you give people enough options to side step content and player skill and enjoyment will certainly suffer.

You are claiming that because 2 players could have a much different experience getting the same set that it is unfair. I am telling you that perception is wrong. It is fair in that it is unfair for all, such is life.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw you're a lawyer correct? How would you feel if I wanted to be a lawyer too? How would you feel if I wanted to go to the same law school or a better one, but I don't have as much time to study as you do? What if your LSAT exam was easier than mine?

I think that I should be able to take the LSAT as many times as I want and every time I get a question right it is added to an absolute total instead of calculated a test by test basis. That way I can work my way to a perfect LSAT and go to Harvard.

Like what the heck is wrong with people?

The only thing I hear: "Finding out I am not special and not blessed by rng breaks my immersion, so the game needs to make sure I am the same as everyone else otherwise its unfair because....ME"

Again, I am not suggesting that you make this stuff easy. I am not saying that I should have perfect traits after running a dungeon 5 times. What I am saying is that there should be a better way than pure unforgiving RNG to get some of the BIS gear that, like it or not, is going to be required to be on leaderboards once they become relevant again. We need a system that allows for those able to complete a certain level of content to have a path to get the gear they want. It should not be easy, but it should be obtainable.

Your Lawyer example actually makes my argument. If you want to become a lawyer, there is a clear path to get there. You sit the LSAT and based on your score, you apply to various law schools. If your score is good enough, you are selected and you attend school for three years. If your grades are good enough to graduate, you sit the bar exam in your state. If you achieve a passing grade, you become a lawyer. Nothing could be clearer. You want something valuable and, this is how you achieve it. That certainly might be easier for some than others, but the path is clear for everyone.

Now if they told my graduating class that only 10% of us based on a random number generator are eligible to sit the bar, that would be unfair. Yes everyone had the same chance, but a bunch of people got screwed despite their hard work. To extend this analogy, that is the current state of this game. There is a select portion of the population that is capable of completing certain content, be it VWGT, VICP, or in the extreme case, VMA. You are then saying that a good portion of those people wont receive the rewards they seek, despite their best farming efforts. That is not fairness IMO. We obviously wont agree on this, but I stand by my position that ZOS needs to rethink how elite gear is distributed in this game.

Vaoh · February 2016

@Seido_Tensei_ I was going to post another wall of text to continue this, but I think our arguing is pointless. You are saying things that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and cannot relate to (such as Maelstrom Arena's impossible to obtain full jewelry sets being a good thing because real life" is unfair so ESO should be too, and my 60+ runs not even counting as that many). No way to relate. Sooo.....

We can agree to disagree. And leave this arguing to that.

One question though.... Can I really level a vet rank in three Maelstrom Arena runs? Vet or Normal, this sounds too good to be true.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Doncellius wrote: »

@Seido_Tensei_ I was going to post another wall of text to continue this, but I think our arguing is pointless. You are saying things that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and cannot relate to (such as Maelstrom Arena's impossible to obtain full jewelry sets being a good thing because real life" is unfair so ESO should be too, and my 60+ runs not even counting as that many). No way to relate. Sooo.....

We can agree to disagree. And leave this arguing to that.

One question though.... Can I really level a vet rank in three Maelstrom Arena runs? Vet or Normal, this sounds too good to be true.

If you have an XP pot on, you will get a Vet Level in about 3 normal runs. That takes like what 30 minutes a piece? Its solid, but you can do it faster in Old Orsinium. You can easily break 1 million xp/hour with a buddy, rings of mara, and xp pots. But if you are all alone, there are worse ways to level.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Doncellius wrote: »

@Seido_Tensei_ I was going to post another wall of text to continue this, but I think our arguing is pointless. You are saying things that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and cannot relate to (such as Maelstrom Arena's impossible to obtain full jewelry sets being a good thing because real life" is unfair so ESO should be too, and my 60+ runs not even counting as that many). No way to relate. Sooo.....

We can agree to disagree. And leave this arguing to that.

One question though.... Can I really level a vet rank in three Maelstrom Arena runs? Vet or Normal, this sounds too good to be true.

@Doncellius With ambrosia it will take you about 2.5 runs. No ambrosia you can get it done is 3.5 runs. Its totally fine to disagree, thanks for the discourse.