Vampire - What do you think of the tradeoffs (PVP)

Alucardo · February 2016

Mmkay, so I'm trying vampire on my stamina DK in PVP. Mostly for bats, supernatural recovery (magicka/stamina regen) and Undeath (pretty nice mitigation bonus when low health).

Now, I can see why something like Vampire would need counters and downsides. There's some strong passives in there and the ultimate is pretty nice. If there was no negative to being a Vampire then everyone would run it and the entire idea of having it in the game would be kinda pointless. I mean, it's not hard to obtain. It's just working out whether or not the positives for you outweigh the bad.

In my case, I'm going to say they don't. Why? Because I'm stamina. Bats simply isn't useful enough when it's magic based. I'd be fine taking 8k surprise attacks from stealth with an additional 8k camo hunter IF my ultimate did more than tickle.

@Wrobel is there any chance bats could scale from your highest attribute? Kinda like flames of oblivion does. I think if you're going to take away a persons health regen, give them a weakness to the most common element in the game, allow them to be instagibbed with camo hunter/dawnbreaker, then there should be a damn good reason to make them want to be a Vampire.
Unfortunately, like most things in this game it's completely magicka biased.

I mentioned something in another thread, but I don't think I was far off the mark. "Vampires are for roleplayers, not PVP".

leepalmer95 · February 2016

If I remember right undeath is buggy at the moment, also it's really not that great. The mitigaton last for about 20% of your hp before your in execute range and your dead already.

I like the regen, i don't like the fact you've got to slot a vamp skill, unlike ww your always running around with your weaknesses.

Bats is a great ult, both morphs have their uses, this is the only reason why i even have vamp, mainly because it's cool.

Camo hunter shouldn't be a skill, stupidly high dmg means if anyone uses it you usually die. People have such an advantage from stealth anyway, not sure why adding 10k extra was necessary, also it's still bugged on the ps4.

Dawnbreaker - 60% extra dmg is so much, especially on a skill that already does so much dmg, my sorc has a 16K initial hit and a 18/19k dot after it. Add the 60% and then if it crit and you can see why people get one shot.

9% more wpn/spell dmg - fair enough.

Now i understand why vamps need weaknesses, despite the fact people only use bat swarm as every other vamp move is kind of useless. But they have so many including the 25% fire dmg.

The weaknesses need to be toned down a bit.

If i never used my vamp character when i ran around with my guild i would 100% never use vamp ever. Only 1 out of all my characters has vamp. Far too many weaknesses that outweigh the positives.

Alucardo · February 2016

@leepalmer95 yeah I finally see what people were talking about. I never really ran Vamp in PVP before. I went to sewers to level bats, jumped off the ledge, took 16k damage from surprise attack/camo hunter and an execute before I even knew what hit me.

But honestly, I can deal with that if bats could scale off stamina and magicka (depending on your highest). At the moment, the only useful ability Vampires have is crap for me.

I do totally agree with you on your point about camo hunter. I've made it no secret I hate the idea of stealth in this game (in PVP anyway). It gives someone far too much of an advantage. To top that off you get a huge bonus with camo hunter. That's pretty ridiculous.

If Undeath is bugged then I really don't see the point in Vamp. As I said, it was one of the reasons I went for it in the first place

Knootewoot · February 2016

I am still a vampire in PvP.

Pros:

- magicka + stamina regeneration (sadly only when skill slotted)
- undeath, damage mitigation
- sneak speed

Cons:

- except for ultimate, the other skills are crap
- Need to have skill slotted for the regeneration passive
- dawnbreaker of smithing is mostly insta death
- other NB who attack from stealth using dual wield heavy attack, animation cancelled by suprise attack with camo hunter proc is also insta death

but it's still fun for me being a vampire. But i have been on the edge of removing the disease a few times.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

@leepalmer95 yeah I finally see what people were talking about. I never really ran Vamp in PVP before. I went to sewers to level bats, jumped off the ledge, took 16k damage from surprise attack/camo hunter and an execute before I even knew what hit me.

But honestly, I can deal with that if bats could scale off stamina and magicka (depending on your highest). At the moment, the only useful ability Vampires have is crap for me.

I do totally agree with you on your point about camo hunter. I've made it no secret I hate the idea of stealth in this game (in PVP anyway). It gives someone far too much of an advantage. To top that off you get a huge bonus with camo hunter. That's pretty ridiculous.

If Undeath is bugged then I really don't see the point in Vamp. As I said, it was one of the reasons I went for it in the first place

Bats does scale of stamins or magicka, you just don't get the 25% extra bonus if your magicka because of cp.

I know a stam dk with 6k bat dmg.

Alucardo · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

@leepalmer95 yeah I finally see what people were talking about. I never really ran Vamp in PVP before. I went to sewers to level bats, jumped off the ledge, took 16k damage from surprise attack/camo hunter and an execute before I even knew what hit me.

But honestly, I can deal with that if bats could scale off stamina and magicka (depending on your highest). At the moment, the only useful ability Vampires have is crap for me.

I do totally agree with you on your point about camo hunter. I've made it no secret I hate the idea of stealth in this game (in PVP anyway). It gives someone far too much of an advantage. To top that off you get a huge bonus with camo hunter. That's pretty ridiculous.

If Undeath is bugged then I really don't see the point in Vamp. As I said, it was one of the reasons I went for it in the first place

Bats does scale of stamins or magicka, you just don't get the 25% extra bonus if your magicka because of cp.

I know a stam dk with 6k bat dmg.

What I mean is, magicka users generally pump points into Thaumaturge anyway, so bats gets enhanced. It should be magic damage if you're a magicka user, physical if you're stamina. That way, Mighty would affect its damage.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

@leepalmer95 yeah I finally see what people were talking about. I never really ran Vamp in PVP before. I went to sewers to level bats, jumped off the ledge, took 16k damage from surprise attack/camo hunter and an execute before I even knew what hit me.

But honestly, I can deal with that if bats could scale off stamina and magicka (depending on your highest). At the moment, the only useful ability Vampires have is crap for me.

I do totally agree with you on your point about camo hunter. I've made it no secret I hate the idea of stealth in this game (in PVP anyway). It gives someone far too much of an advantage. To top that off you get a huge bonus with camo hunter. That's pretty ridiculous.

If Undeath is bugged then I really don't see the point in Vamp. As I said, it was one of the reasons I went for it in the first place

Bats does scale of stamins or magicka, you just don't get the 25% extra bonus if your magicka because of cp.

I know a stam dk with 6k bat dmg.

What I mean is, magicka users generally pump points into Thaumaturge anyway, so bats gets enhanced. It should be magic damage if you're a magicka user, physical if you're stamina. That way, Mighty would affect its damage.

Keep wishing zos will actually make more than 1 stam ult xD

Tankqull · February 2016

being a vampire is worth it just for the stealth speed.

regarding its weaknesses, i feel them to be perfectly fine.

the only issue i have is the insane dmg of the fighter guild abilities.
but they will not be changed because of the uproar the pve comm would create if either their base values or their deadra modifier would be lowered.

see @leepalmer95 last post dawnbreaker doing 34k+(tooltip value) within 6sec due to the bugged connection of the first dot tick to the cast animation wich is canceled anyway... on a non vamp player as an AOE effect is way to high from a pvp perspective.

Abeille · February 2016

I think the regular vampire skills should be reviewed. I don't think they are very useful, and they have the potential to cause more harm than good. I haven't used Elusive Mist in a while because it didn't seem like the speed boost was being fully applied (I don't know if that was fixed), and without the speed boost you are just a target that can't fight back and that take a little longer to kill.

I really like bats, though. I use the Clouding Swarm morph right now, but I might change to Devouring Swarm due to the changes to stealth skills, that also affect the invisibility in Clouding Swarm.

And running while in stealth is awesome. Dark Stalker alone makes me love playing my vampire.

Tholian1 · February 2016

Abeille wrote: »

I think the regular vampire skills should be reviewed. I don't think they are very useful, and they have the potential to cause more harm than good. I haven't used Elusive Mist in a while because it didn't seem like the speed boost was being fully applied (I don't know if that was fixed), and without the speed boost you are just a target that can't fight back and that take a little longer to kill.

I really like bats, though. I use the Clouding Swarm morph right now, but I might change to Devouring Swarm due to the changes to stealth skills, that also affect the invisibility in Clouding Swarm.

And running while in stealth is awesome. Dark Stalker alone makes me love playing my vampire.

Running while in stealth is the only reason my character is still a vampire. And I can use better armor sets than Night's Silence.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Tholian1 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I think the regular vampire skills should be reviewed. I don't think they are very useful, and they have the potential to cause more harm than good. I haven't used Elusive Mist in a while because it didn't seem like the speed boost was being fully applied (I don't know if that was fixed), and without the speed boost you are just a target that can't fight back and that take a little longer to kill.

I really like bats, though. I use the Clouding Swarm morph right now, but I might change to Devouring Swarm due to the changes to stealth skills, that also affect the invisibility in Clouding Swarm.

And running while in stealth is awesome. Dark Stalker alone makes me love playing my vampire.

Running while in stealth is the only reason my character is still a vampire. And I can use better armor sets than Night's Silence.

Running + stealth and concealed weapon is nice.

Wollust · February 2016

Being a vampire is really tough these days.

Tholian1 · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I think the regular vampire skills should be reviewed. I don't think they are very useful, and they have the potential to cause more harm than good. I haven't used Elusive Mist in a while because it didn't seem like the speed boost was being fully applied (I don't know if that was fixed), and without the speed boost you are just a target that can't fight back and that take a little longer to kill.

I really like bats, though. I use the Clouding Swarm morph right now, but I might change to Devouring Swarm due to the changes to stealth skills, that also affect the invisibility in Clouding Swarm.

And running while in stealth is awesome. Dark Stalker alone makes me love playing my vampire.

Running while in stealth is the only reason my character is still a vampire. And I can use better armor sets than Night's Silence.

Running + stealth and concealed weapon is nice.

@leepalmer95 , does The increased stealth speed with concealed weapon stack with the vampire stealth speed, or is it just another stand alone option?

LBxFinalDeath · February 2016

Undeath and the sneak speed makes it worth it for me.

RAGUNAnoOne · February 2016

@GreenSoup2HoT

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Tholian1 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I think the regular vampire skills should be reviewed. I don't think they are very useful, and they have the potential to cause more harm than good. I haven't used Elusive Mist in a while because it didn't seem like the speed boost was being fully applied (I don't know if that was fixed), and without the speed boost you are just a target that can't fight back and that take a little longer to kill.

I really like bats, though. I use the Clouding Swarm morph right now, but I might change to Devouring Swarm due to the changes to stealth skills, that also affect the invisibility in Clouding Swarm.

And running while in stealth is awesome. Dark Stalker alone makes me love playing my vampire.

Running while in stealth is the only reason my character is still a vampire. And I can use better armor sets than Night's Silence.

Running + stealth and concealed weapon is nice.

@leepalmer95 , does The increased stealth speed with concealed weapon stack with the vampire stealth speed, or is it just another stand alone option?

I'm sure they stack, don't see why they wouldn't. Haven't checked in a while, i've always assumed they have, you've made me doubt myself now.

Unsent.Soul · February 2016

I've been contemplating Vamp on my mag templar I'm lvling currently. This thread answered the few questions I had.

Thanks for the info.

My only personal experience was being walking targets for dawn breaker but that'll happen and situational awerness can help a tad. Stealth speed and regen are icing on the cake.

Tholian1 · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I think the regular vampire skills should be reviewed. I don't think they are very useful, and they have the potential to cause more harm than good. I haven't used Elusive Mist in a while because it didn't seem like the speed boost was being fully applied (I don't know if that was fixed), and without the speed boost you are just a target that can't fight back and that take a little longer to kill.

I really like bats, though. I use the Clouding Swarm morph right now, but I might change to Devouring Swarm due to the changes to stealth skills, that also affect the invisibility in Clouding Swarm.

And running while in stealth is awesome. Dark Stalker alone makes me love playing my vampire.

Running while in stealth is the only reason my character is still a vampire. And I can use better armor sets than Night's Silence.

Running + stealth and concealed weapon is nice.

@leepalmer95 , does The increased stealth speed with concealed weapon stack with the vampire stealth speed, or is it just another stand alone option?

I'm sure they stack, don't see why they wouldn't. Haven't checked in a while, i've always assumed they have, you've made me doubt myself now.

Sorry, didn't mean to make you doubt yourself.

I'm thinking Surprise Attack + Dark Stalker passive would be better if it is the case that concealed doesn't stack.

Edit: Googled the subject and found answers saying they do stack. I might give it a try.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Tholian1 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I think the regular vampire skills should be reviewed. I don't think they are very useful, and they have the potential to cause more harm than good. I haven't used Elusive Mist in a while because it didn't seem like the speed boost was being fully applied (I don't know if that was fixed), and without the speed boost you are just a target that can't fight back and that take a little longer to kill.

I really like bats, though. I use the Clouding Swarm morph right now, but I might change to Devouring Swarm due to the changes to stealth skills, that also affect the invisibility in Clouding Swarm.

And running while in stealth is awesome. Dark Stalker alone makes me love playing my vampire.

Running while in stealth is the only reason my character is still a vampire. And I can use better armor sets than Night's Silence.

Running + stealth and concealed weapon is nice.

@leepalmer95 , does The increased stealth speed with concealed weapon stack with the vampire stealth speed, or is it just another stand alone option?

I'm sure they stack, don't see why they wouldn't. Haven't checked in a while, i've always assumed they have, you've made me doubt myself now.

Sorry, didn't mean to make you doubt yourself.

I'm thinking Surprise Attack + Dark Stalker passive would be better if it is the case that concealed doesn't stack.

It's fine.

If don't really like the increased speed to much on it, it's nice but not something i'd expect on a dps skill, Sa gets an armour debuff, was hoping concealed gets something like minor maim/defile or even something like a dot, anything to increase it's dps.

I get my speed from crippling grasp

, though running around in cloak with 65% speed is pretty funny.

hammayolettuce · February 2016

Vampire and WW have their even tradeoffs, but overall being a vamp in cyro is just honestly not advices unless your ok with being killed way more than usual and or you run in a decent sized group where you wont be focused for being a vamp as much.

The damage you take as a vampire from evil/camo hunter and dawnbreaker is just too much now in cyro. Even with double camo hunter procs "fixed" you can still be one shot from it and be almost 1 shot or 1 shot by dawnbreaker of smiting. I really hope in update 10 like they stated there are some decent buffs to Vamp and WW that dont change how much DPS they dish out but help them to survive more than just 1 hit from the fighters guild skill line. Its just way way wayyy to effective right now vs vamps.

rfennell_ESO · February 2016

The downside to vamps is the increased damage you take all the time and your susceptibility to fighter's guild abilities.

The other unintended downside is the requirement of having vamp abilities on your skill bar to get the regen passive. This is an unintended downside as the two vamp abilities and the one ultimate = only one bar with clouding/devouring swarm on it and the other bar vamp ability free.

They really ought tone down vampire damage taken a little bit, mostly because compared to werewolves who aren't susceptible in human form and have increased defensive abilities in ww form (coupled with the fact that with most werewolves you are better off avoiding them in form as long as you can), well vamps take a lot more damage out of the deal and it's often a bit much.

The passive regen should be changed back to always active, or abilities actually worth slotting past swarm ultimate on a backbar should be added.

RedTalon · February 2016

Most of my nightblades kills are against vampires, and I am a pretty sucky player in pvp. So it generally gimps you for the scrubs like me.

iTzStevey · February 2016

I think the trade offs are worth it...for my magicka templar, the undeath passive and clouding swarm combined give you some serious survivability, I've managed to tank a group of 15+ people in light armor because of it. I think it's just down to personal preference, never tried it on a stam build though so can't really comment.

Elhanan · February 2016

@Alucardo While I agree with the many others that Fighter's Guild abilities need to be toned down a little bit, I still think there are some other potential benefits for vampire stamina builds. Mist form can provide some time to allow stamina recovery while having 75% damage mitigation. This alone is making me once again consider taking vampire for my Stamplar alt.

Now, here's some theorycrafting I'm excited to try out: stamina/poison build using vampire poison mist for some stamina recovery time + damage mitigation. I'm hoping this becomes a viable build with the Thieves Guild Update poison buffs (+poison/physical/disease damage with Mighty CP) and new poison-based item sets.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2016

Cons of Beng a vampire -

25% extra fire damage
60% more damage from Dawnbreaker
9% greater damage from anyone with the slayer perks which is nearly everybody
Will deal greater damage to you when using Camo Hunter
Very Slow health Regen

What you get in return isn't enough.

Here is what Zenimax could add to make vampires worth it.

- Fix Mistform and alter elusive mist so it isn't useless in the next patch

- Grant Vampires poison and disease Damage Resistance

- Undeath is useless because when your health is that low your already within execute range so it needs a buff, make it so vampires cant be executed.

- We should heal faster then Mortals not Slower, It is clearly stated in the vampire quest that Lamae Bal has super healing so why are we doing the exact opposite?

GreenSoup2HoT · February 2016

Pro's

-Bat Swarm
-Dark Stalker
-10% Regen passive

Con's

-9% extra weapon damage against you
-25% fire debuff
-75% health regen debuff (you could be stage 1 to negate this but their is no real insensitive to)
-60% extra damage taken from dawnbreaker
-susceptible to camouflage hunter

Vampire's are complete trash. I would know i am one. The disadvantages out way the advantage's easily. Vampire's drain essence and mist form are trash. Vampire's mitigation passive is so low that it really only benefit's you if you are a tank with lot's of hp.

Until i see Vampire buff's, i'd want to see fighter's guild nerf's. It's stupid how Werewolf's and Vampire's are just free picking's to one shot.

The only nice thing about Vampire is safety in number's. If you get one shot you get revived and theirs no harm done. Then just proceed to use Bat Swarm the only saving grave of the skill line on multiple target's.

I agree vampire's need help for pvp. Not in the damage department but the defense department. Fix mist form's damage mitigation, make drain essence something worth using.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/247717/vampire-updates-in-u10#latest

I have a similar thread where you can submit your idea's to improve this skill line for the next dlc after TG dlc.

I'm currently making a Bow Primary build for vampire where i utilize clouding swarm and bombard on my nightblade. I'll try to get some footage in the coming week's. This build will be something completely different and not your typical melee focused dueling build. Stay tuned.

Iove · February 2016

Wow, it's been a while and I actually didn't realise that the regen passive doesn't work without a Vamp skill slotted...

I liked the regen on my healer but since all the skills are crap, ditching Vamps. Buhbye.

Solariken · February 2016

If you play in IC a lot, then vampire is really sexy. I'm a stamplar so I hear what you are saying, but it's worth it for me for one simple passive - Dark Stalker. This is a massive quality of life improvement.

If we ever get jewelry crafting I will run 5 Hundings and 5 Night's Silence and drop vampire like a bad habit. But until then, I'll just live with all the negatives.

ListerJMC · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

@Wrobel is there any chance bats could scale from your highest attribute? Kinda like flames of oblivion does. I think if you're going to take away a persons health regen, give them a weakness to the most common element in the game, allow them to be instagibbed with camo hunter/dawnbreaker, then there should be a damn good reason to make them want to be a Vampire. Unfortunately, like most things in this game it's completely magicka biased.

This!!!

Vampirism gives bonuses to both magicka AND stamina regeneration, so why do both skills cost magicka and why does the ultimate only do magicka damage? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit: I have vampirism on a stamina nightblade, so I feel your pain @Alucardo. I'm trying to make it work.

Chrlynsch · February 2016

My suggestion

Add un-executable to Undeath, no bonus damage from exicute abilities

Mist immune to all CC including charge CC

Drain no longer a channel, but an instant cast Scourge Harverster like ability. Allowing you to combine other DPS industry your drain.

% based health heals shouldn't be effected in Cyrodiil

SirDopey · February 2016

ListerJMC wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

@Wrobel is there any chance bats could scale from your highest attribute? Kinda like flames of oblivion does. I think if you're going to take away a persons health regen, give them a weakness to the most common element in the game, allow them to be instagibbed with camo hunter/dawnbreaker, then there should be a damn good reason to make them want to be a Vampire. Unfortunately, like most things in this game it's completely magicka biased.

This!!!

Vampirism gives bonuses to both magicka AND stamina regeneration, so why do both skills cost magicka and why does the ultimate only do magicka damage? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit: I have vampirism on a stamina nightblade, so I feel your pain @Alucardo. I'm trying to make it work.

I have vamperism on my stamina NB, the ulti doesn't bother me very much. The main reason for me being a vamp is the increased sneak speed, 100% essential. I don't mind the clouding morph, while I'm not getting the CP gains from the magic damage it is an awesome combo with surprise attack as you tend to stun everyone you hit....