I was asked by a stam sorc today why he kept dying in PVP

Erock25 · February 2016

@Vyle_Byte if you really want to understand then how about you read what I actually wrote instead of just being offended for nothing. You reiterate your point while ignoring that elder scrolls sorcs are SUPPOSED to wear heavy armor and carry melee weapons. Your argument of sorc= magicka is false. Regardless, there are four classes in this game and all use magicka primarily and all uses magicka only for their class skills at the game's release. Just because you associate the word sorcerer with magic doesn't mean one of four classes is limited to one resource. Dragon Knights are Knights and therefore can't breathe fire! You see how that statement makes no sense at all?

Solariken · February 2016

Those Nightblades just played smart man, I would focus a stam sorc first too - not because storcs are weak but because stam Dk's are gods of the arena.

Acsvf · February 2016

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

My point, unkind people of the internet, is that spells are magic based, weapons are physical aka stamina. So no, in my mind it doesn't make sense that any spells you cast as a sorc would be stamina.

Sorcs aren't limited to "spells".

yodased · February 2016

I mean the irony is that just about any player focused by two good nightblades is going to die.

Tell him

Vyle_Byte · February 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

@Vyle_Byte if you really want to understand then how about you read what I actually wrote instead of just being offended for nothing. You reiterate your point while ignoring that elder scrolls sorcs are SUPPOSED to wear heavy armor and carry melee weapons. Your argument of sorc= magicka is false. Regardless, there are four classes in this game and all use magicka primarily and all uses magicka only for their class skills at the game's release. Just because you associate the word sorcerer with magic doesn't mean one of four classes is limited to one resource. Dragon Knights are Knights and therefore can't breathe fire! You see how that statement makes no sense at all?

Indeed all you did was ask questions, you wrote nothing of an answer and then tried to belittle me by saying i have a limited imagination.

In fact, I am not here to argue but get insight from those who choose to play the class in this way. And again, you misunderstand that I don't get the heavy armor/melee weapons "argument". Obviously the melee would be stamina, I was specifically speaking of the spells themselves.

If your answer is "because we don't want to be limited to just magic because no one else is" then just say that. I would call that a better answer than your first post to me.

Teflondon75 · February 2016

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Pallmor wrote: »

Tell him that he was stupid for not associating "Sorcerer" with "Magicka."

It's like a guy PO'ed that his tank doesn't work when he puts all his points into magicka and wears only light armor.

Exactly my thoughts on Stam Sorc.
I in no way mean to belittle anyone who chooses to play the way they want, but I quite honestly don't understand the logic behind Stam Sorc. A Sorc IS magic. Magic is where any Sorc gets its power. Stamina doesn't make sense in my mind whatsoever.

I mean, sincerely, enlighten me on how this makes any sense. I just don't get it. Stamina, is for physical power. Mage (which is exactly what a Sorc is) derives from Magic. How on earth can a Magic powered being use their powers using stamina?

Putting all thoughts of previous games/lore etc aside keep in mind this is an MMO, not a single player game. Do you think it would be remotely fair if all three other classes were Very strong in both magicka And stamina and yet sorcs could only play magicka? Single player games, makes no difference I suppose. MMO Fair/parity(close as possible anyhow) > lore. All 4 classes started as Pure magicka, the other classes became both over time as people played them and asked for changes etc. It only makes sence to include sorcs here as well.

SneaK · February 2016

So what is wrong with Stam Sorcs?

I don't get it.

Lore_lai · February 2016

vamp_emily wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Two Nightblades vs him and me on my DK. I wiped them after he fell, while he laid on the ground watching, tears rolling down his stam sorc face.

What do I tell him, @Wrobel, what do I tell him?

(l2p comments, while imminent, will be ignored)

Tell him to do the same thing I do. Get back up and try again

Edit:
If it was @FENGRUSH, tell him to stay down and pass him some tissues.

And if it was @FENGRUSH , did the 2 NBs Ambush-spam him??!
Details, man, we need DETAILS! So many cliffhangers!

***
Jokes aside, you say l2p comments will be ignored. But how do we know it's not actually a l2p issue?
And I really don't mean that in a derogatory way!

Maybe this person is new to PvP, doesn't have good gear, has very low or no CPs, etc.

Your question is clearly rhetorical, and while I agree that the class needs some love, you can't always blame just the class if there are other shortcomings.

Tyrion87 · February 2016

Acsvf wrote: »

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

My point, unkind people of the internet, is that spells are magic based, weapons are physical aka stamina. So no, in my mind it doesn't make sense that any spells you cast as a sorc would be stamina.

Sorcs aren't limited to "spells".

So how would you call e.g. the thundering presence currently based on stamina, if it's obviously a SPELL - some mystical power clearly having its source in arcane energy. It is wrong that such skills are being triggered by stamina which is nothing but endurance/strength. In this matter I do not care about the lore, I care about the logic.

yodased · February 2016

SneaK wrote: »

So what is wrong with Stam Sorcs?

I don't get it.

They are not stam sorcs, they are weapon sorcs. People are upset that there are not class specific stamina based skills for the sorc, so similar to the DK, when you roll a stamina based character you are relegated to using the weapon skills of whichever you choose and MAYBE 2 maximum class skills.

People want to be able to use a 2handed sword and sling spells like they could in Morrowind and Oblivion and Daggerfall, but the problem with that is, a typical lore specific battlemage or sorc is completely and ultimately OVERPOWERED as ***.

That is probably the reason, because if you gave a sorc actual abilities that synced with heavy protection and weapons, they would rule the school.

The problem with wanting single player type character models in an MMO is the other players want them too. You can't have the best of both worlds in this type of game, you sacrifice that for the ability to play with/against other players.

at least thats my opinion on the matter.

Vyle_Byte · February 2016

@Alucardo Sorry for derailing your thread. That honestly wasnt my intention. Thank you to all who tried to answer in a civil manner, more kindness people, less hatefulness.

Alucardo · February 2016

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

@Alucardo Sorry for derailing your thread. That honestly wasnt my intention. Thank you to all who tried to answer in a civil manner, more kindness people, less hatefulness.

Lol no worries. I don't think I've ever seen one thread stay on track before. As long as the comments don't get too heated I've no problem with it getting slightly derailed.

corrosivechains · February 2016

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

And here we have the not so elusive "I've never played an Elder Scrolls game except Skyrim" player.

You would be incorrect in your assumptions.
How about you try answering the honest question instead of being sarcastic?

Erock25 wrote: »

Every class was 100 percent magicka driven at games release. If sorc is magicka only, what is the stam only class? Why do you associate sorc with just magicka? You know an elder scrolls sorc traditionally uses melee weapons and heavy armor, right? Or are you just bringing in word associations from other lore to suit your limited imagination.

Same goes for you. My point, unkind people of the internet, is that spells are magic based, weapons are physical aka stamina. So no, in my mind it doesn't make sense that any spells you cast as a sorc would be stamina. That certainly doesn't mean I have a limited imagination. Common sense tells me this is off. Ty for your, oh so informative and brilliant answer.

Simply wanted an intelligent conversation here but it must have slipped my mind that it isn't possible here.

Because if you actually had played any of the previous ES games besides Skyrim, as a sorcerer you'd know how asinine your "sorcs are wizards" statement is. They're mana batteries meant to enhance their melee skills and damage absorption.

Yeah, playing a class that specializes in heavy armor and alteration, which can't naturally regen it's own magicka, as a pure spellcaster just screams "I AM WIZ".

Acsvf · February 2016

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Acsvf wrote: »

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

My point, unkind people of the internet, is that spells are magic based, weapons are physical aka stamina. So no, in my mind it doesn't make sense that any spells you cast as a sorc would be stamina.

Sorcs aren't limited to "spells".

So how would you call e.g. the thundering presence currently based on stamina, if it's obviously a SPELL - some mystical power clearly having its source in arcane energy. It is wrong that such skills are being triggered by stamina which is nothing but endurance/strength. In this matter I do not care about the lore, I care about the logic.

That isn't related to my post at all.

yodased · February 2016

corrosivechains wrote: »

Because if you actually had played any of the previous ES games besides Skyrim, as a sorcerer you'd know how asinine your "sorcs are wizards" statement is. They're mana batteries meant to enhance their melee skills and damage absorption.

Yeah, playing a class that specializes in heavy armor and alteration, which can't naturally regen it's own magicka, as a pure spellcaster just screams "I AM WIZ".

Yes this is lore correct. Yes this is the "typical" battlemage in Elder Scrolls. No you can't have this in a MMO as it breaks the trinity. There is no checks and balances to that playstyle and thats why it is so badass.

Magic attack? Hey thanks for regen.
Melee Weapon attack? uhhhh I am surrounded by magical barriers and freaking metal.
Range Weapon attack? let me go ahead and release some of that magic I stored from your buddy trying to kill me earlier.

Add something like vampire to that situation and you have a hero class, you would be like a damn bannerboss in the sewers.

Pallmor · February 2016

vamp_emily wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Two Nightblades vs him and me on my DK. I wiped them after he fell, while he laid on the ground watching, tears rolling down his stam sorc face.

What do I tell him, @Wrobel, what do I tell him?

(l2p comments, while imminent, will be ignored)

Tell him to do the same thing I do. Get back up and try again

Edit:
If it was @FENGRUSH, tell him to stay down and pass him some tissues.

FENGRUSH just lives to complain. So he intentionally creates a weird build, and then complains that ZOS doesn't support his weird build. And if they ever DID support it, he would probably just come up with some other weird combo so he could complain that THAT wasn't being supported.

corrosivechains · February 2016

yodased wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

Because if you actually had played any of the previous ES games besides Skyrim, as a sorcerer you'd know how asinine your "sorcs are wizards" statement is. They're mana batteries meant to enhance their melee skills and damage absorption.

Yeah, playing a class that specializes in heavy armor and alteration, which can't naturally regen it's own magicka, as a pure spellcaster just screams "I AM WIZ".

Yes this is lore correct. Yes this is the "typical" battlemage in Elder Scrolls. No you can't have this in a MMO as it breaks the trinity. There is no checks and balances to that playstyle and thats why it is so badass.

Magic attack? Hey thanks for regen.
Melee Weapon attack? uhhhh I am surrounded by magical barriers and freaking metal.
Range Weapon attack? let me go ahead and release some of that magic I stored from your buddy trying to kill me earlier.

Add something like vampire to that situation and you have a hero class, you would be like a damn bannerboss in the sewers.

Oh, I agree, it would be an overpowered class in an MMO if it were directly copied over from previous ES games. Just tired of people's only argument to not buff a playstyle which needs it being based on a false premise. Hell, even in D&D, where the sorcerer class has been for all intents and purposes a traditional spellcaster, you can kit one out to be a very powerful melee focused character.

Erock25 · February 2016

Pallmor wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Two Nightblades vs him and me on my DK. I wiped them after he fell, while he laid on the ground watching, tears rolling down his stam sorc face.

What do I tell him, @Wrobel, what do I tell him?

(l2p comments, while imminent, will be ignored)

Tell him to do the same thing I do. Get back up and try again

Edit:
If it was @FENGRUSH, tell him to stay down and pass him some tissues.

FENGRUSH just lives to complain. So he intentionally creates a weird build, and then complains that ZOS doesn't support his weird build. And if they ever DID support it, he would probably just come up with some other weird combo so he could complain that THAT wasn't being supported.

Yeah how dare he create such a weird build? I mean, there are a whole SEVEN other options (mag sorc and mag/stam versions of the other three classes). How could he possibly expect an eighth build? Eight is like, way too many possible ways to build a character and no mere mortal could handle that many options.

SneaK · February 2016

yodased wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

So what is wrong with Stam Sorcs?

I don't get it.

They are not stam sorcs, they are weapon sorcs. People are upset that there are not class specific stamina based skills for the sorc, so similar to the DK, when you roll a stamina based character you are relegated to using the weapon skills of whichever you choose and MAYBE 2 maximum class skills.

People want to be able to use a 2handed sword and sling spells like they could in Morrowind and Oblivion and Daggerfall, but the problem with that is, a typical lore specific battlemage or sorc is completely and ultimately OVERPOWERED as ***.

That is probably the reason, because if you gave a sorc actual abilities that synced with heavy protection and weapons, they would rule the school.

The problem with wanting single player type character models in an MMO is the other players want them too. You can't have the best of both worlds in this type of game, you sacrifice that for the ability to play with/against other players.

at least thats my opinion on the matter.

I was being facetious.. I have played with/against a lot of stam sorcs that do just fine. Weapon abilities are strong enough for most class skills to not need stam morphs (IMO). In the case of a Stam Sorc, they are the most mobile class type in the game. Which means they are top dog in one area, may not be the greatest area to excel in but still it's something.

Have a feeling this was non'vet and the Stam Sorc maybe doesn't have Streak yet...

Pallmor · February 2016

corrosivechains wrote: »

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Pallmor wrote: »

Tell him that he was stupid for not associating "Sorcerer" with "Magicka."

It's like a guy PO'ed that his tank doesn't work when he puts all his points into magicka and wears only light armor.

Exactly my thoughts on Stam Sorc.
I in no way mean to belittle anyone who chooses to play the way they want, but I quite honestly don't understand the logic behind Stam Sorc. A Sorc IS magic. Magic is where any Sorc gets its power. Stamina doesn't make sense in my mind whatsoever.

I mean, sincerely, enlighten me on how this makes any sense. I just don't get it. Stamina, is for physical power. Mage (which is exactly what a Sorc is) derives from Magic. How on earth can a Magic powered being use their powers using stamina?

And here we have the not so elusive "I've never played an Elder Scrolls game except Skyrim" player.

And here we have the "I've only played TES games and not any other MMO" player.

You can't have mage supermen walking around in an MMO with 2H weapons wearing heavy armor wiping out everything in their path because this is an MMO where you need BALANCE.

Here, I'll spellsword it out for you:

B - A - L - A - N - C - E

yodased · February 2016

SneaK wrote: »

I was being facetious.

I figured, but the comment is still valid. There is nothing inherantly wrong with using a stamina focused sorc. They are quite powerful and in the right hands are destructive machines, the complaint is that it is because of maximum 2 sorc skills and everything else weapons.

That means that a stam DK and a stam sorc are separated by wings or bolt? A templar and a DK by talons or biting jabs?

Having only weapons be the viable solution for stamina based characters makes for a lot less diversity and funnels players into cookie cutter builds that rely on wrecking blow spam.

That's all.

corrosivechains · February 2016

Pallmor wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Pallmor wrote: »

Tell him that he was stupid for not associating "Sorcerer" with "Magicka."

It's like a guy PO'ed that his tank doesn't work when he puts all his points into magicka and wears only light armor.

Exactly my thoughts on Stam Sorc.
I in no way mean to belittle anyone who chooses to play the way they want, but I quite honestly don't understand the logic behind Stam Sorc. A Sorc IS magic. Magic is where any Sorc gets its power. Stamina doesn't make sense in my mind whatsoever.

I mean, sincerely, enlighten me on how this makes any sense. I just don't get it. Stamina, is for physical power. Mage (which is exactly what a Sorc is) derives from Magic. How on earth can a Magic powered being use their powers using stamina?

And here we have the not so elusive "I've never played an Elder Scrolls game except Skyrim" player.

And here we have the "I've only played TES games and not any other MMO" player.

You can't have mage supermen walking around in an MMO with 2H weapons wearing heavy armor wiping out everything in their path because this is an MMO where you need BALANCE.

Here, I'll spellsword it out for you:

B - A - L - A - N - C - E

corrosivechains wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

Because if you actually had played any of the previous ES games besides Skyrim, as a sorcerer you'd know how asinine your "sorcs are wizards" statement is. They're mana batteries meant to enhance their melee skills and damage absorption.

Yeah, playing a class that specializes in heavy armor and alteration, which can't naturally regen it's own magicka, as a pure spellcaster just screams "I AM WIZ".

Yes this is lore correct. Yes this is the "typical" battlemage in Elder Scrolls. No you can't have this in a MMO as it breaks the trinity. There is no checks and balances to that playstyle and thats why it is so badass.

Magic attack? Hey thanks for regen.
Melee Weapon attack? uhhhh I am surrounded by magical barriers and freaking metal.
Range Weapon attack? let me go ahead and release some of that magic I stored from your buddy trying to kill me earlier.

Add something like vampire to that situation and you have a hero class, you would be like a damn bannerboss in the sewers.

Oh, I agree, it would be an overpowered class in an MMO if it were directly copied over from previous ES games. Just tired of people's only argument to not buff a playstyle which needs it being based on a false premise. Hell, even in D&D, where the sorcerer class has been for all intents and purposes a traditional spellcaster, you can kit one out to be a very powerful melee focused character.

edited for snark, but seriously, caster classes with strong melee capabilities is not a new concept to MMO's. Like I said before the edit, most caster classes in DDO solo builds build around the idea of two-handed weapons with spells to buff melee combat and absorption. Many MUDs have also seen many players do similarly, focusing on spells which buff melee capatilities. Then you have the Sith Inquisitor/Jedi Consular in SWTOR that has a melee tank focus...with a two-handed weapon. Then there are dual-wielding focused spellcaster classes in many MMO's, like Psionicists and Wardens in Allods, Lore-masters in Lotro which can slot sword and staff, and those are just a few examples.

But you're right, World of Warcraft, which is the only MMO that really matters, definitely makes the distinction that spellcasters don't melee.

strikeback1247 · February 2016

Tell him to reroll a stamplar

Alucardo · February 2016

strikeback1247 wrote: »

Tell him to reroll a stamplar

I'd change my stam sorc into a stamplar in a heart beat

FENGRUSH · February 2016

vamp_emily wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Two Nightblades vs him and me on my DK. I wiped them after he fell, while he laid on the ground watching, tears rolling down his stam sorc face.

What do I tell him, @Wrobel, what do I tell him?

(l2p comments, while imminent, will be ignored)

Tell him to do the same thing I do. Get back up and try again

Edit:
If it was @FENGRUSH, tell him to stay down and pass him some tissues.

Id ask for a 1v1 or why you want to throw insults that I cry but I opened your post history to see if I knew you and I saw a thread I need help - PvP and read that youre being slaughtered in BWB campaign.

Stam sorcs only defining trait was their mobility. Gap closers are notoriously one of the worst mechanics this patch (acknowledged by the devs and theyre taking action to fix it). When youre playing an underdog class and your mobility is stuck at 0% due to being gap spammed you might have a similar feeling to complain about bad decisions that dont get fixed for 4 months while playing a class that is neglected patch after patch (including this one coming in). In short, you have no ground to stand on to insult me here.

Pallmor wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Two Nightblades vs him and me on my DK. I wiped them after he fell, while he laid on the ground watching, tears rolling down his stam sorc face.

What do I tell him, @Wrobel, what do I tell him?

(l2p comments, while imminent, will be ignored)

Tell him to do the same thing I do. Get back up and try again

Edit:
If it was @FENGRUSH, tell him to stay down and pass him some tissues.

FENGRUSH just lives to complain. So he intentionally creates a weird build, and then complains that ZOS doesn't support his weird build. And if they ever DID support it, he would probably just come up with some other weird combo so he could complain that THAT wasn't being supported.

I made a weird build to complain about it? What are you even on about? I played magicka sorc for a long time in this game - I switched off when it became extremely powerful in 1.6 to stam sorc as people challenged that it was not able to be played. I enjoyed it, stuck with it, and have helped others enjoy the same style Ive made. Every class can be made viable, but some are positioned much better in fights than others. When fighting evenly skilled opponents you will just be limited on options to the point that you have no real go-to option due to poor mechanics. EI: trying to fight a magicka sorc while crit surge does not return health because shields are uncrittable and still (acknowledged by devs) very very strong and they are looking for solutions to balance it.

For the OP @Alucardo : I get it - and DKs have great options against NB that they can dish out the only physical scaling ult in the game instantly after wounding a NB for quick closing. They likely targeted the stam sorc first.

Fighting NBs is one of the worst things in open world for a stam sorc, especially now. They cant rely on block like others and most skills go through roll dodge from a NB while being instant as well. Meteor if the hands down best option to dealing with this (other than having a build centered around WW like the bulldozer one I use).

His best option is to actually block until he gets a target on one and drop a meteor, streak through them, crit rush back into the meteored target to keep him from stealthing. This is a panic ult really - and since streak should CC him, the meteor will not. Since thats the case, you flip to dual weild and reveal with tornado to keep him from stealthing the meteor.

Alternatively, if you can start the fight with a target and youre not under pressure, meteor then crit rush. At this point he has no CC immunity and 9/10 times he will not block, he will stealth the meteor. You keep him revealed with tornado - or if he blocks, you wind a WB to chunk out his stamina. You close with executioner or another tornado.

9/10 NBs will not be able to handle this combo well at all, they are used to using cloak and getting away. The key is to ensure you stay in for the meteor to land and then close the kill fast. My best advice, and it works most of the time. If youre fighting a top end NB - which is a very small % of the game, they can still disjoint the meteor even if you reveal them... and youre honestly screwed and outmatched from passives and mechanics perspective. They do more damage with quicker/instant animations and you will never ever land a WB on a good NB. You can only rely on streak/crit rush/light atk+bash + executes. Any good NB build can negate this damage with vigor alone.

Emma_Overload · February 2016

SneaK wrote: »

So what is wrong with Stam Sorcs?

I don't get it.

1) We lack a heal or ward that works well in PvP, so we have survivability issues. Critical Surge, for example, works great against mobs, but often fails in PvP because of Impenetrable trait and the Resistant CP passive.

2) We lack a stamina based class damage spell that we can put on any weapon bar. I would prefer an instant damage spell like Surprise Attack, while other players want a stamina version of Crystal Frags.

TL;DR: it's harder for Stam Sorcs to stay alive and kill stuff, because we lack the class skills to support stamina play.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar · February 2016

#humble brag

Elsonso · February 2016

Merkabeh wrote: »

I guess the joke was lost in text...

No, the joke was not lost.

Alucardo wrote: »

Reroll seems pretty popular, so I told him to reroll. He's making a DK now apparently. While all of this is actually true, there's a good point behind it. Compared to other play styles, how often do you see a stam sorc? My guess is not very much. Because they are obviously ridiculous, yet received no buffs in this update. My question to you @Wrobel, is, why?
I know you'll probably say something like "We couldn't fit everything in", and I understand that, but surely you can see stam sorcs aren't performing as well as other classes yet you chose not to give them any love this patch. This is what I don't understand.

Honestly, the answer was to respec as a magicka Sorcerer. Not reroll as a DK. Unless he really wanted a DK.

My personal definition of a properly balanced Sorcerer for PVP will always be magicka > stamina. In PVE, do what you want and have fun.

JD2013 · February 2016

Cry me a river and float out of Craglorn on it?

dimensional · February 2016

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Pallmor wrote: »

Tell him that he was stupid for not associating "Sorcerer" with "Magicka."

It's like a guy PO'ed that his tank doesn't work when he puts all his points into magicka and wears only light armor.

Exactly my thoughts on Stam Sorc.
I in no way mean to belittle anyone who chooses to play the way they want, but I quite honestly don't understand the logic behind Stam Sorc. A Sorc IS magic. Magic is where any Sorc gets its power. Stamina doesn't make sense in my mind whatsoever.

Never heard of spellswords or anything like that? It's pretty obvious why people choose to play stam sorcs, they want to have a very specific (and very popular among RPGs in general) archetype. Don't act all confused and wonder why people pick this option.