An Open Letter to ZOS from a very concerned Templar

Minno · February 2016

b92303008rwb17_ESO wrote: »

After numerous updates or patches, I finally come to realize that what Templar or even the game as a whole really needs is a new combat developer team or new lead combat designer.

Templar since 2014 game launch here. Will sign off on this motion if additional support is gathered.

Alucardo · February 2016

nagarjunna wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Imagine the letter from another class.

Subject: An open letter to zos from a stam sorc

<expletive>

Regards,
Stam sorc

Dang! Was I too polite?

Nah, at least Templars got some minor buffs. Stam sorcs got squat this patch.

Essiaga · February 2016

nagarjunna wrote: »

Therein lies the problem... no one knows what the vision is.

I'd like ZOS to communicate on this and tell us what the templar is and how they want to achieve that goal.

This is half of the issue. No communication and contradiction.

I always believed that the Templar was a "Stand Your Ground" survivalist. I'll stand and fight while others run.

Wrobel mention of our "house" was insulting not because I dislike the concept, I started playing the class for that concept, but that everything done has made that concept not viable.

The tools we had Blinding Flashes, Eclipse, and Sun Shield are removed and replaced with nothing or nerfed into not being viable. My suggestions on changes have revolved around the 'house' concept since I first started posting in Nov 2015 (not very long ago.) Simple changes that can be done with out reworking the entire skill.

*Solar Barrage - add maim debuff and remove empower. It will allow us to stand our ground while taking less damage.
*Rune Focus - add protection while in the rune. If we must stand still we need to be able to take some more damage.
*Eclipse - Remove the limit to a single target. Apply the damage if CC broken.

I'd also like to get the Evasion buff in class. These 3 buffs would go along way towards replacing Blinding Flashes and Sun Shield, though i'd prefer ZOS actually balance the game to remove Battle Spirit and allow me to use Sun Shield over Evasion.

They've modified Eclipse to be a lesser clone of Reflective Scales and Defensive Stance. It will soon reflect simply projectiles where it currently projects single target harmful spells (which include Lava Whip, Concealed Weapon, and Death Stroke, etc). This doesn't seem like much but considering the changes to the DK class and the Stamina NB taking some hits to their ability utilize stealth, as well as many Templars seeking a viable class, I think there might be a raise in the number of Whips and CW coming our way if we chose to play. For those not familiar Eclipse is a single target skill that reflects attack back at the enemy for a short period of time, which already makes it pretty damn limited, but it can also be purged and cc broken, and it cannot be applied to CC immune targets.

There has been nothing added to help us stand our ground or even to succeed in PVP. Dark Flare is great for PVE, but its initial cast time is longer then the tool tip suggest. It's closer to 1.7 sec, which makes it very easily interrupted or reflected, and its slow cast time makes it easily dodged or reflected. Yet I feel this skill is in near perfect balance, if only Solar Barraged were more viable. Adding the Maim debuff will allow us to utilize Charge and Jabs, and to 'stand our ground'. It makes us strong verse many, but not much stronger verse one. Solar Barrage also has a self root in its animation. Self snares and roots are something that Templar are just supposed to live with.

To be continued ...

Essiaga · February 2016

We're the class that gets what all other classes don't want.

Cast times ... Dark Flare, Healing Ritual.

Channels ... Puncturing Strikes, Radiant Destruction, Remembrance.

No one likes to lose control of there character or the unresponsive feel of miss chance. Yet (inaddition to cast times and channels) the Templar is supposed to be accepting of Toppling Charge's GCD (not to mention its 10+sec lock out of all skills and ability bug, and its cancellation bug, etc), the self root of Solar Barrage, Healing Ritual, and Remembrance and the self snare of Radiant Destruction, etc.

Sun Shards also has a 3 second hang time, to go along with the slow moving Sun Fire, and Dark Flare making them easily dodged.

Then there's AoE that the Templar is supposed to defend (Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual) that provide no more protection or mitigation then the other classes get with far more mobile skills. In fact the even the Stam-Sorc has more ability to stand their ground (Mines, bound armor, and Lightning Form) while still maintaining max mobility (Streak and Lightning Form). And Vigor is a far better heal then Cleansing Ritual.

Many people have called for the removal of classes, but if that happened BOL is the only skill I think most people would even consider taking from the Templar tree.

There is no more ability to "Stand Your Ground" in the Templar class then there is in any other class. Sorcerers and Dragon Knights are the true 'Stand Your Ground' classes. Templar needs to find other options. Vampire offers Templar 3 things they lack: Mitigation and mobility of Elusive Mist and the Passive regeneration received for slotting at Vampire skill. Yes we can slot a skill to increase our passives, that is only useful when there are corpses around (then its awesome, but very situation).

The Templar simply doesn't have an identity and our Stamina build Templar brothers gain so little by being a Templar. StamDK get far more utility (Reflect, major mending via Igneous shields rather then stationary Rune) and of course the physical damage Ultimate.

DK's Inhale makes Solar Barrage look pathetic. Reflect makes Eclipse look pathetic. Ash Cloud (imo) makes Spears/Ritual look pathetic. Vigor makes Ritual look pathetic. Ward and Battle Spirit make Sun Shield look pathetic. Ward makes Puncturing Strikes pathetic. Toppling charge makes it self look pathetic and if you're pots on cool down leaves the Templar looking pathetic.

Those are the good skills. Yes you can succeed as a Templar. Zerg up or be exceptional. A good Templar is AMAZING on other classes. The Templar is hardmode and its also made to be THE focus of attacks since BOL is so powerful.

I don't have an issue with BOL nerfs as long as we gets something in return. Not more DPS to Dark Flare (which is the same thing they did last year and then reverted) but mitigation and survive-ability. Cleansing Ritual used to cleansed projectiles. This was unintended but hardly made the Templar OP. The have fixed it and have replaced that survival option with nothing.

We're getting less and less capable of survival, while we watch other classes get better and better at healing. It looks like we'll out put some good damage if PTS goes live today. I honestly don't think Dark Flare and Radiant Destruction will make it to Live un-nerfed. They were nerfed last year. They'll be nerfed again soon. Then we'll have only received 1 buff, which is the replacing a knock back with a snare on Puncturing Strikes (though Puncturing sweeps received health regen nerf, unless we stand in our 'houses').

Toppling Charged is bugged beyond belief and we were told they fixed it in Dec. The claimed to have fixed a bug of the 3 we reported. The just made it dodge-able, which gives it the unique distinction of being dodge-able and reflect-able as a projectile. So our broken skill just got a little worse. I want things to to be fair and skills to work properly as much as the next guy but I also want to have a viable option with skills. IF toppling charges does happen to work, with out canceling, or self silencing, or self snaring, then it still can be dodge rolled and reflected.

Essiaga · February 2016

Here's a link to the Templar Perception after ESO Live 2-12-2016 thread with a poll that showed at the time of this posting 80% of those who voted have negative perception of the future of this class.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/247214/templar-perception-after-eso-live-2-12-2016/p1

We're looking for some communication and some hope for the future. Turn this around for us and for yourselves ZOS.

SirDopey · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Imagine the letter from another class.

Subject: An open letter to zos from a stam sorc

<expletive>

Regards,
Stam sorc

Dang! Was I too polite?

Nah, at least Templars got some minor buffs. Stam sorcs got squat this patch.

....you didn't get Nerfed to hell and back either, pretty sure NO other class has received so many nerfs in one patch before....

nagarjunna · February 2016

And the nerf's continue in patch 2.3.2 0 - isn't that wonderful.

I'm beginning to see resignation posts in the Official Templar feedback thread!

nagarjunna · February 2016

@Joy_Division has written a thoughtful post in the Official Feedback thread in the PTS forum! It's incredibly good and thoughtful. Do go read it.

However there is also a plea for a vision from ZOS as to what the Templar is and does.

More and more people are beginning to see the value in getting a Vision statement and road map from ZOS.

kirk_lewis_ESO · February 2016

....

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2016

SirDopey wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Imagine the letter from another class.

Subject: An open letter to zos from a stam sorc

<expletive>

Regards,
Stam sorc

Dang! Was I too polite?

Nah, at least Templars got some minor buffs. Stam sorcs got squat this patch.

....you didn't get Nerfed to hell and back either, pretty sure NO other class has received so many nerfs in one patch before....

That is what always makes these threads fun. Everyones natural bias. Look what you got And i didnt!

It is like NBs might look at the BoL nerf and sayhaha you deseve, while Templars might look at the Cloak nerf and say haha you deseve it!

It makes so many of these threads silly.

mook-eb16_ESO · February 2016

I quite Like a change after 2 years of playing its a new challenge

Explore different avenues etc a new game for free. What's not to like.

Artjuh90 · February 2016

@Alucardo + zos didn't state you would get buffed either ;P

louweezi2preub18_ESO · February 2016

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

I've played a Templar from the first day the game went live during pre-launch in 2014. Except for a brief period after ZOS gave the class an execute, the Templar has always been the weakest DPS/DD class. I've maxed every weapon line on my Templar except sword and board. I've done magicka builds and stamina builds, and maxed all the class skills. I tried being a dedicated healer, tried range DPS, and melee DPS.

Templar can be a good tank due to its excellent self sustain, but the tank role is limited in ESO. Templar can be a good healer, of course, but ZOS seems to want to limit Templar healing so that the other classes' healing can be nearly on par with Templar. And there is absolutely nothing that puts the Templar on a par with the other classes for DPS/DD.

I've found a happy medium for my Templar doing mostly solo PvE at my pace and with my two favorite weapons, the bow and dual wield with a stamina DPS/DD oriented build. But this means my Templar will never be very good at PvP or intense group-oriented content.

This!
altho now I only solo PvE cuz I just don't have the necessary skill to be adequate in groups w/heals and/or DPS
Sad

aLi3nZ · February 2016

Templar and dk are support roles for healing and tanking. Is the main complaint that templars cannot dps as high as the actual dps classes sourc and nightblade? I don't really like how zos keeps nerfing abilities and maybe they could make some Templar abilities instant cast and not channeled but I don't know why you would expect a healer to dps as good as nb or sourc. That said there is a lot of Templars and I have seen many good templars take on and win 1vx situations. Also done vicp with 3 Templars including Templar tank, healer and dps.

eserras7b16_ESO · February 2016

There's a lot of work to do in the Templars side. Loads of skills wich have no use in the actual game mechanisms or doesn't feel responsive/powerful enough, and it doesn't feel like ZoS employers are focusing hard on it, and if they do, they don't seem to be able to come up with a solution yet

Callous2208 · February 2016

I think some people are missing the point. Sure everyone will have a biased opinion and perhaps think that their class has it worse in certain aspects of the game. But know this. It is not biased rhetoric, nor foaming at the mouth from people who need to L2P their class and quit whining. The templar class is not just miles behind in certain singular aspects of gameplay. I would argue it is the worst class for all situations at this time. Sure, every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Templar, in the current system, has no strengths. Nothing that makes it the best choice for any scenario. (PvP, PvE, Healing, Tanking, Dps.) This friends, has been the issue for quite some time now, and it needs immediate attention.

BRogueNZ · February 2016

I rather hope this 'this is my house' style of play becomes nothing, it would put me off Templar more than any other changes that have or will soon happen. I don't want to park my arse, I want offensive mobility

Lylith · February 2016

my templars have been shelved for months, now.

it seems they're destined remain so, unfortunately.

aLi3nZ · February 2016

Callous2208 wrote: »

I think some people are missing the point. Sure everyone will have a biased opinion and perhaps think that their class has it worse in certain aspects of the game. But know this. It is not biased rhetoric, nor foaming at the mouth from people who need to L2P their class and quit whining. The templar class is not just miles behind in certain singular aspects of gameplay. I would argue it is the worst class for all situations at this time. Sure, every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Templar, in the current system, has no strengths. Nothing that makes it the best choice for any scenario. (PvP, PvE, Healing, Tanking, Dps.) This friends, has been the issue for quite some time now, and it needs immediate attention.

templars are great healers and a good choice for pve since they have awesome self healing and decent dps. If it is such a bad choice why do so many people choose Templar. I often see new Templars power leveling / grinding even

wiltedrose · February 2016

I've read this entire thread and I have to agree with the original poster; I want to see clear aims from the Zenimax team for the Templar class. My vet 16 Templar is my favourite character and over time she has been through many changes as the nerfs came. I must admit I held onto a lot of hope that I'd retain all healing ability for dungeons but as my main heal is breath of life, the thieves guild patch is going to screw everything.

The variety in ESO is being lost; I'll admit that I've even converted my Templar to dps weapon/spell crit. It feels like all changes are pushing towards DPS (I'm even levelling a nightblade and sorc as my templar just doesn't compare). As for this idea of a 'stand your ground' Templar... I don't want to be forced into a tank role, I didn't pick a dragonknight! My main goal was to be a good healer from the get go.

nagarjunna · February 2016

Thanks I belive that ZOS has lost it''s customer focus. This from the Official Templar thread sums it up well

BalticBlues wrote: »

I once had the priviledge to work for a team of one of the best computer game designers of this world, Sid Meier (best known for "Civilization"). Several magazines put Meier at the top of their listing of the "Most Influential People in Computer Gaming of All Time". Meier is incredibly bright and successful, but everybody makes mistakes, and he would be the first to admit he also did. From his less successful designs, Sid gives this advice:

Sid Meier: "The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
In Sid’s words, the player must be the "star": "As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."

This thread shows why Templars are losing the fun, feeling more like victims instead of "stars".
We need the help of a designer who brings back the fun, not takes even more of it.
We need the help of a designer who puts our fun in the game first, not his fun as designer.
We need the help of a designer who designs class skills according to content requirements.

No vision statement, no road map and a combat designer clearly at odds with the content designers!

Dreyloch · February 2016

nagarjunna wrote: »

Therein lies the problem... no one knows what the vision is.

I'd like ZOS to communicate on this and tell us what the templar is and how they want to achieve that goal.

It truly pains me to say this as I hate to defend ZoS for just about anything. But if they do what you ask and there is a "vision" stated. If anything strays from it, everyone will scream "Thats not the vision! That's not what you said was the vision!" So why would ZoS bother painting themselves into a corner like that? I know I wouldn't =/

Callous2208 · February 2016

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

I think some people are missing the point. Sure everyone will have a biased opinion and perhaps think that their class has it worse in certain aspects of the game. But know this. It is not biased rhetoric, nor foaming at the mouth from people who need to L2P their class and quit whining. The templar class is not just miles behind in certain singular aspects of gameplay. I would argue it is the worst class for all situations at this time. Sure, every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Templar, in the current system, has no strengths. Nothing that makes it the best choice for any scenario. (PvP, PvE, Healing, Tanking, Dps.) This friends, has been the issue for quite some time now, and it needs immediate attention.

templars are great healers and a good choice for pve since they have awesome self healing and decent dps. If it is such a bad choice why do so many people choose Templar. I often see new Templars power leveling / grinding even

I cannot comment on why you see so many new Temps power grinding lately. I can tell you however that Templars are pretty good healers, not necessarily even the clear cut best anymore, and that would also make you nothing more than a dedicated heal bot. Other classes, which have become just as good an option for healing, can also dps and be mobile while the healing is done. As far as their "decent" dps, all leveling PvE content is faceroll easy at this point, so this is not really the best way to judge effectiveness. At high level/end game pve, they are severely lacking again in the dps field. Those self heals mean nothing if you're a stamina build btw. The point I was trying to make was, every other class is either the best, or close to the best at something, some classes, multiple things. Templars aren't the best at anything. They are good/similar to others in healing now, and dead last in everything else.

altemriel · February 2016

well, the best would be if they would publish a roadmap for ever class, as my DK has got nerfed pretty much too, over the time....

nagarjunna · February 2016

You know what? Someone raised a discussion point around bows. After 2 pages of discussion ZOS came on and posted this:

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Hey guys,

Thanks for the discussion on Bow PvE DPS. We agree that "pure" Bow PvE builds are parsing a little bit lower than we'd like in dungeon and trial encounters. We want to improve Bow's sustained damage without buffing its burst (especially from Crouch), and we targeted a change that will help out Bow builds without influencing the hybrid Dual Wield/Bow or Two Handed/Bow builds (which are already very competitive).

In the next PTS build, you should see following change to the Hawk Eye passive:

Old Hawkeye:
Increases the damage of your Bow attacks by 8/15% when striking off balance enemies.

New Hawkeye:
Your successful Light and Heavy Attacks increase the damage of all your Bow abilities by 2/5% for 4 seconds, stacking up to 3 times.

A standard Bow PvE DPS rotation should be able to generate and maintain Hawk Eye stacks throughout a boss encounter, and this keeps it out of reach of Crouch burst or hybrid builds who only use Bow to keep up Volley or Poison Injection.

Great for bows! Bully!

The official templar feedback thread is 49 pages long and there has not been one (1), one (!!!!) single dev comment. Something is very wrong!

nagarjunna · February 2016

So @THal wrote this in the Official Feedback Thread for Templars:

Thal wrote: »

All snarkiness aside, from someone who works for a SaaS company, I'd be moderately concerned about some of the decisions being made from a business perspective. Obviously the landscape in an enterprise versus a video game is quite different, but some things resonate in both.

1) To maintain subs, your core product/game/service needs to be a quality product. If it's glitchy for more than a very BRIEF period of time, you lose subs/people choose a competitor/etc. By no means am I saying that the entire class or product is flawed to this degree, but fixes need to be agile and in line with company vision and consumer feedback (think days/weeks versus every 3 months). If 1/4 of your customer base feels alienated to some degree, that's poor business (plus Stam sorcs, plus stam anything sans DK)

2) To stay on the forefront, you take customer nominations to speak to core problems. We do this regularly as we offer new iterations of our products. You obviously don't need to ACCEPT each nomination, but each are judged based on merit and ultimately consumer opinion drives enhancements

3) Alignment between company vision, product features, and consumer needs - This is pretty self-explanatory, but I sense a growing divide between the very fun game design of active/mobile battles and the vision of Templars as a whole. If the consumer doesn't buy into the company vision (supported by product features that speak to this vision) you lose subs.

4) Overcommunication is key - You over-communicate planned changes, the logic behind them, and promote active discussion (active discussion is a two way street, not a 50+ page dialogue with no constructive input). When consumers sense an inability to derive support in a timely fashion, they move their business.

It is what it is really - wanted to add some intelligent commentary to all this. There's been a lot of wonderful thoughts in this thread (mixed among the whiny drivel) and I hope that does not go unnoticed.

ZOS still continuing to fail at this, Matt Firor should be alarmed about what is happening!

nagarjunna · March 2016

So now we have gone live!

It will be interesting to see what happens. I'm taking a break from playing my Templar, I'll be back to do writs and stuff but PvP? Not a chance! PvE? Not that either!

Brrrofski · March 2016

I'll still pvp with both of mine more than other probably.

I found them both really powerful before this patch. My stamplar will take a hit through CP, bit it'll still mash faces. My magplar got no nerfs. Javelin buff. Jabs is a buff imo. I'll also have det next patch.

I find them the most fun to play in pvp. I have good builds and rotations. I'll still do fine with them

AbraXuSeXile · March 2016

Purifying ritual is a real kick to the ***.

cheers zos