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Re-balancing the Foundation of the Game: Attributes & Armor

joleda4ub17_ESO
joleda4ub17_ESO
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I’ve always wondered why the foundation of this game was uneven. I decided to analyze the unevenness as best I could. I broke this post up into two sections to make this post useful to other people. The first section is the analysis and the second section is my own personal solution, which wouldn’t require a complete re-design of the current system. Sorry for the length. Enjoy!

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************************ Analysis ************************
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Quick analysis of the current system:
  1. Attributes have built-in advantages. Attributes have built-in advantages which make it easier to achieve a livable amount of Health with minimal or no impact to DPS.
  2. Armors have built-in advantages. HA has more armor per piece than LA and MA, while providing no bonus damage. However, due to use of certain Abilities, LA is more survivable than HA, and also has the built-in advantage of providing bonus damage.

The Attribute system appears to increase according to the following equations: (These are quick approximations for without Champion Points. There are small errors in the least significant digit.)
  • Magicka = (Level-1)*142+1000
  • Health = (Level-1)*156+1100
  • Stamina = (Level-1)*142+1000
  • Magicka Recovery = (Level-1)*142* 0.06545+58
  • Health Recovery = (Level-1)*156*0.03595+35
  • Stamina Recovery = (Level-1)*142*0.06545+58

A quick analysis of the formulas and their results: (These are very rough approximations to ease understanding.)
  • Magicka * 1.1 = Health (Health is 10% larger than Magicka.)
  • Stamina * 1.1 = Health (Health is 10% larger than Stamina.)
  • Magicka Recovery * 0.6 = Health Recovery (HR is 40% smaller than MR.)
  • Stamina Recovery * 0.6 = Health Recovery (HR is 40% smaller than SR.)

One player added attribute point adds the following:
  • +111 Magicka (Leveling adds 142.)
  • +122 Health (Leveling adds 156.)
  • +111 Stamina (Leveling adds 142.)

The effects of CP on Attributes can be found here.

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*********************** Conclusion ***********************
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Why the 3 Attributes don’t increase at the same rate confuses me. MR, HR, and SR being so different is especially confusing. At least Magicka/Stamina and Health only differ by 10%. In a game that advertises that every class can perform every role, why place built in advantages in the foundation of the game? Why can’t each Attribute, and its corresponding recovery, have the same value?

My suggestion is to decouple magic damage from max Magicka and physical damage from max Stamina. Instead, each point spent on Magicka raises Spell Damage and each point spent on Stamina raises Weapon Damage. Larger Magicka and Stamina pools allow the character to use more abilities, which is still advantageous, but doesn’t penalize races in comparison. Also, characters with a zillion CP will have a larger resource pool, but necessarily do more damage. This would be more new-player-friendly while rewarding players that have been around a long time.

What if we had the following system:
  1. Leveling up raises Stamina, Health, and Magicka by 200. (50 Levels adds 10,000 to each Attribute.)
  2. A user selected Attribute point raises Magicka by 100 and increases Spell Damage by 10. (50 points adds 5000 Magicka and 500 Spell Damage.)
  3. A user selected Attribute point raises Health by 100 and increases Spell Resistance and Physical Resistance by 0.25%. This added Resistance cannot be bypassed. (50 points adds 5000 Health and 12.5% mitigation that cannot be bypassed. The Nord mitigation should fall into the same category.)
  4. A user selected Attribute point raises Stamina by 100 and increases Physical Damage by 10. (50 points adds 5000 Stamina and 500 Physical Damage.)

Following a similar system can balance out the different armor types. What if we had the following system:
  1. The damage mitigation provided by armor, and spells that buff armor, can be penetrated.
  2. When looking at the same body parts, each armor piece of equal level provides the same physical resistance regardless if its Light Armor, Medium Armor, or Heavy Armor.
  3. Use the passives to dictate which armor type is best used for which archetype.
  4. Each armor type will increase regeneration for one of the following: Magicka, Stamina, or Health.
  5. Each armor type will decrease cost for one of the following: Magicka abilities, Stamina abilities, or Block and Bash costs.
  6. Each armor type will increase damage for one of the following: Magicka abilities, Stamina abilities, or provide additional Magical and Physical Resistance.
  7. Each armor type will increase critical chance for one of the following: Magicka abilities, Stamina abilities, or provide additional Critical Resistance.

Example Light Armor passives:
  • With one or more pieces of LA equipped: Increase Magicka Recovery by 1%/2%/3% per piece of LA equipped.
  • With one or more pieces of LA equipped: Reduce the Magicka cost of abilities by 1%/2%/3% per piece of LA equipped.
  • With five or more pieces of LA equipped: Increase Spell Damage by 3%/6%/9%.
  • With five or more pieces of LA equipped: Increase Spell Critical by 3%/6%/9%.

Example Medium Armor passives:
  • With one or more pieces of MA equipped: Increase Stamina Recovery by 1%/2%/3% per piece of MA equipped.
  • With one or more pieces of MA equipped: Reduce the Stamina cost of abilities by 1%/2%/3% per piece of MA equipped.
  • With five or more pieces of MA equipped: Increase Weapon Damage by 3%/6%/9%.
  • With five or more pieces of MA equipped: Increase Weapon Critical by 3%/6%/9%.

Example Heavy Armor passives:
  • With one or more pieces of HA equipped: Increase Health Recovery by 1%/2%/3% per piece of HA equipped.
  • With one or more pieces of HA equipped: Reduce the Stamina costs of Blocking and Bashing by 2%/4%/6% per piece of HA equipped.
  • With five or more pieces of HA equipped: Increase Spell mitigation and Physical mitigation by 5%/10%/15%. (The result is that one must wear 5 or more pieces of HA to get bonus mitigation, which prevents the character from getting the bonus damage awarded by LA or MA. A true trade-off!)
  • With five or more pieces of HA equipped: Increase Critical Resistance by 10%/20%/30%. (Most DPS players in PVP have much more than 30%. For balance reasons, this one passive cannot counter entire builds, so the numbers must be chosen carefully.)

I also have an idea to re-balance the various armor qualities. Base armor mitigation can be penetrated. When the attacker and defender are of equal level or clones: (We know ZOS loves the concept of diminishing returns!)
  • White armor provides 15% mitigation.
  • Green armor provides 20% mitigation.
  • Blue armor provides 24% mitigation.
  • Purple armor provides 27% mitigation.
  • Gold armor provides 29% mitigation.

The following table shows the compilation of mitigation available to full-tank characters with the preceding proposals. Characters with this amount of mitigation would have much lower DPS capabilities when considering the first proposal to Attributes and the second proposal to Armors. Hopefully the overall result is that hybrid characters are now usable. The numbers are debatable and most of the mitigation can be penetrated.

[img][/img]20ibcrr.png

Leveling the playing field and removing built-in advantages should be looked at by someone. How can anyone balance a game when so many built-in advantages floating around? Would you intentionally build a house on an uneven foundation?
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
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    Light armor magica builds are very defensive due to the shields that are scaling out of magica pool....fixing that will put magica in the right place.

    Medium Armor Stamina builds - with the roll dodge nerf I find this setup well balanced.

    Heavy armor - the mitigation should be a little bit better.
    Also Heavy armor should have an increased melee damage bonus as passive - and it makes sense - the weight of the heavy armor makes your melee attacks hit harder (providing you can lift up your hand).
  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    If this goes through, I would want a refund on my imperial race. Cos 0 reason to pick imperial over a race with stam regen as a passive. I can have same damage but stack *** tons of recovery instead of having like 3-4K stamina more which is basically one or 2 more abilities cast. Whereas something likey the bosmer/redguard regen passive would mean a huge bonus to recovery stats.
    Edited by Vangy on February 15, 2016 6:43AM
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
  • RAGUNAnoOne
    RAGUNAnoOne
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    The real problems: 1 armor has a hardcap that tanks can reach 2 penetration exists 3 the damage boost from stamina and magicka instantly burns through the health. I think they need to remove damage from max stats and let you allocate AP to your SD and WD possibly defense instead. some skills can still scale purely off stamina/magicka some with SD or WD only.
    PS4 NA
    Argonian Master Race

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    Support Tail armor and tail ribbons: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236333/concept-tail-armor-for-beast-races#latest
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246134/request-dyeable-tail-ribbons
  • Acsvf
    Acsvf
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    The change on the effect of maximum stats on damage will penalize several races, as increasing maximum stamina and magicka would then be significantly less useful, and maybe even almost useless. The ability to cast abilities is mainly dependent on magicka and stamina recovery, and maximum stamina/magicka takes a backseat.
    @LightArray
    Lightarray Level 50 Dunmer Magicka Templar Healer

    CP: 192

    Add @Acsvf when quoting me to give me a notification!
  • Acsvf
    Acsvf
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    Internet error, double post.
    Edited by Acsvf on February 15, 2016 9:42AM
    @LightArray
    Lightarray Level 50 Dunmer Magicka Templar Healer

    CP: 192

    Add @Acsvf when quoting me to give me a notification!
  • joleda4ub17_ESO
    joleda4ub17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Vangy wrote: »
    If this goes through, I would want a refund on my imperial race. Cos 0 reason to pick imperial over a race with stam regen as a passive. I can have same damage but stack *** tons of recovery instead of having like 3-4K stamina more which is basically one or 2 more abilities cast. Whereas something likey the bosmer/redguard regen passive would mean a huge bonus to recovery stats.

    Excellent post and your concerns shouldn't be ignored. My intention was to level the foundation on which to build a more balanced game. The races come next, but it wouldn't be hard to figure out. It appears to me that the tail wags the dog in this game regarding racial balance.

    With respect to Imperials, how about the following?
    • Replace max Health with a Nord-like unpassable mitigation and improved healing received.
    • Replace max Stamina with increased Weapon Damage.
    • Keep Red Diamond.
  • joleda4ub17_ESO
    joleda4ub17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Acsvf wrote: »
    The change on the effect of maximum stats on damage will penalize several races, as increasing maximum stamina and magicka would then be significantly less useful, and maybe even almost useless. The ability to cast abilities is mainly dependent on magicka and stamina recovery, and maximum stamina/magicka takes a backseat.

    See previous reply. All races can fit and have a unique grouping of passives.
  • joleda4ub17_ESO
    joleda4ub17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    The real problems: 1 armor has a hardcap that tanks can reach 2 penetration exists 3 the damage boost from stamina and magicka instantly burns through the health. I think they need to remove damage from max stats and let you allocate AP to your SD and WD possibly defense instead. some skills can still scale purely off stamina/magicka some with SD or WD only.

    Excellent ideas! Players can choose to have bigger resource pools (Magicka, Health, Stamina) or more damage (Spell Damage, Weapon Damage).
  • Bashev
    Bashev
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    The real problems: 1 armor has a hardcap that tanks can reach 2 penetration exists 3 the damage boost from stamina and magicka instantly burns through the health. I think they need to remove damage from max stats and let you allocate AP to your SD and WD possibly defense instead. some skills can still scale purely off stamina/magicka some with SD or WD only.

    Excellent ideas! Players can choose to have bigger resource pools (Magicka, Health, Stamina) or more damage (Spell Damage, Weapon Damage).

    I thought about this but it will not be the best solution. People then will stack recovery and damage. If you have a lot of recovery you can find the right balance with small resource pool.
    Because I can!
  • RAGUNAnoOne
    RAGUNAnoOne
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    Vangy wrote: »
    If this goes through, I would want a refund on my imperial race. Cos 0 reason to pick imperial over a race with stam regen as a passive. I can have same damage but stack *** tons of recovery instead of having like 3-4K stamina more which is basically one or 2 more abilities cast. Whereas something likey the bosmer/redguard regen passive would mean a huge bonus to recovery stats.

    Excellent post and your concerns shouldn't be ignored. My intention was to level the foundation on which to build a more balanced game. The races come next, but it wouldn't be hard to figure out. It appears to me that the tail wags the dog in this game regarding racial balance.

    With respect to Imperials, how about the following?
    • Replace max Health with a Nord-like unpassable mitigation and improved healing received.
    • Replace max Stamina with increased Weapon Damage.
    • Keep Red Diamond.

    I saw a video from @Elloa suggesting different racial passives and an ultimate it was some pretty good ideas which is why it will never happen.
    PS4 NA
    Argonian Master Race

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    Support Tail armor and tail ribbons: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236333/concept-tail-armor-for-beast-races#latest
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246134/request-dyeable-tail-ribbons
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