New Argonian Buff coming next week (8% potion restore to 12%)

Farorin · February 2016

The fact of the matter is that it is still weak considering you have to use a potion for it to apply. A potion that you either have to spend time making, or spend money buying. This is compared to other class skills that are a constant thing no matter what.

If they insist on keeping it as a potion buff, then they at least should make it a powerful one, or give it some sort of secondary effect on top of that current one that would make it a bit more worthwhile.

PlagueMonk · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

The problem is this "buff" is STILL tied to an ability that requires us to expend consumables and a measly +4% to each stat STILL does not offset that big disadvantage.

True it is still tied to a consumable item, but with the health buff last week there is still progress.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Now if Zenimax was willing to send Argonians a daily supply of max stat potions THEN I would quit bitching but i don't see that happening.

Would you settle for adding in that Argonians make one or two extra potions per craft?

Hummmm, now that's an interesting idea. While I still abhor the fact its tied to a consumable and can only be used once every 30-45 secs*** (IF and only if you use a potion every time you are off CD......chances are you won't) that would help offset the personal cost to us at least.

The only problems I have with this idea however are;
1) You get no advantage out of it UNLESS you take up alchemy (not a problem for me but Idk if we should be forcing yet another "requirement" to gaining a benefit from our passive.
2) Everyone and their dog would roll an Argonian just to make potions. I don't know if I like the idea of the race being used in this way

*** This is the stick they should be balancing the ability around......I would have to sit down and figure it out but the burst % should be EQUAL to what we would get if this ability was on constantly because right now, 12% to all our stats even twice a min doesn't even come close to equaling a constant ability.

Teflondon75 wrote: »

ok ok ok....how does this help exactly? lol. Honestly, when you are leveling up ok sure, but once you are V16/gold kit and a good build etc is sustain really a problem that people often run into that a little return on potion use actually makes or breaks?

Still a race that will "NEVER" be considered for min/max(not saying it needs to...just stating it will never be) because it has no stat max and health is whatever @shrugs@ They created a game that almost screams for max magicka or stamina and then throw out a few races that have no bonus to these. Why exactly would they do that is my question.

Despite the extra cost I would have preferred a slight reduction on potion cooldown. At least that would be excellent with the alchemist set. But they are seemingly hell-bent on keeping some races as more flavor and some as the Srs Bsns races for the big boys (nGirls) club.

The problem is, somehow Zenimax still believes that magicka = stamina = health. And they do NOT. mag/stam are both the driving forces that drive your character. Without them you can do nothing. Health simply keeps you alive, that's IT. Numerous videos have shown that a class like a Sorc can completely marginalize health because they can shield stack which acts like their health (so in essence they are turning their magicka into health!)

I don't know exactly where more health would equal the other two stats but considering that a single attack in PvP can EASILY dish out 10k (half the ave life of a player) how do you balance that? If one ability that costs 2200 can deal 10k damage then that would mean health boost should be roughly 5x better? While a +45% boost to Argonians and Nords (basically this should ONLY be given to races with a health only stat base) everyone else would scream bloody murder. Just imagine if I had 40k health in PvP........./briefly nods off dreaming.........but I digress......

Jar_Ek · February 2016

Well doing a little math, if we assume a hybrid with 22k in all stats and 700 regeneration. Then 12% is 2.6k in each stat every 45s which is 58 per sec or 116 bonus to regeneration. Which is about 16% of 700. So we have roughly 15% regeneration across the board equivalent if we spam drink pots... And if your build happens to match my numbers.

AshTal · February 2016

It still sucks the potion racial is terrible and should be replaced completely - getting a crap amount of health, mana and Stamina when I drink a potion is a waste of time. My potions kick in way more health and Mana than that and in most cases I only need health or manna and almost never stamina.

Give us a decent racial we have been waiting for long enough!

Whatzituyah · February 2016

You do realize you can drink any potion and get this bonus right? I think its a good idea.

Jar_Ek · February 2016

Ok have now made a template character with 20.7k magicka, 21k health, 24k stamina (all with food buff). He has 633 magicka recovery, 383 health recovery and 778 stamina recovery. He is in full purples (no yellow gear) and is a sorcerer (which means his stamina recovery is only 667 and health recovery only 321 when hardened ward or a pet is not slotted). And he has a 10% magicka recovery built in.
So my estimateds were a bit out and we actually do rather better than my first guess.

Junkogen · February 2016

They need to address the cool down. It sucks that it's expensive to maintain, but if you cut in to that dang cool down then even trash pots become valuable. That's why I think ZOS should give Argonians at least a glyph's worth of cool down reduction time in addition to the rest of the Amphibious passive. Yeah, I tend to agree with others that a 45 second cool down is a beast to overcome. I think our big hurdle is that ZOS clearly doesn't want to create anything new for racials. They just want to adjust numbers, which works against us. I don't know, though. Is it that difficult to cut and paste some potions cool down reduction code into the Argonian passives? I'm no coder, so I don't know. Are we asking too much of them?

As much as it sucks to have a racial tied to a consumable. If they added something to the passives to reduce the potion cooldown, I would stop complaining entirely. It's the fact that the same old races are better suited to benefit from the Clever Alchemist armor and other potion-based things while Argonians with a potion-based passive do not. Argonians should be the best race to utilize that new Clever Alchemist, no question. That's what irritates me. It's still the same old races dominating because of the passives imbalance and the failure to adequately address them. ZOS needs to fix that. Every race should be the undisputed champion of something, not just swimming. Even with this new buff, are Argonians better than the Titans of stamina and magicka while using Clever Alchemist? That's the real test. If they are not, then the passives are still not even close to balanced. Clever Alchemist has become the litmus test for me and that's just a minimum standard.

Samuel_Bantien · February 2016

Although the changes are welcome, we must look at some certain mechanics for example:

Be a regen build in PvP. Run 30k magicka (just as an example). Have 2k Magicka (Combat) Regen... 12% magicka + 4k from Pots is around 7.5k magicka (not doing math)... 8 seconds later I've done more regeneration through just raw Magicka Regeneration than a 45 second CD Passive (Pot cds are 45 seconds).

This works the same way as any stamina regen build too. 8%-12% is not a game changer. High elves' 10% magicka regen passive is stronger than this passive. - Not to mention the regen passive stacks even further with the "basic regen buff" (30% more!).

It is simply not enough.

Jar_Ek · February 2016

On live my stats are 13.5k magicka, 18.7k health and 30.6k stamina (with food). And 583 magicka, 383 health, and 1521 stamina recovery (and I am a sorcerer and have slotted ward for the test).
So 12% will be: 1.6k magicka, 2.2k health and 3.7k stamina. Over 45s that's 35 magicka, 48.9 health, 82 stamina per second. So 12% magicka, 25.5% health, 10.7% stamina recovery increase equivalent over the same period.

AshTal · February 2016

Why should Argonian's be handicapped by the only race who must consume potions to get their bonus and its a crap bonus on top of that.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Well doing a little math, if we assume a hybrid with 22k in all stats and 700 regeneration. Then 12% is 2.6k in each stat every 45s which is 58 per sec or 116 bonus to regeneration. Which is about 16% of 700. So we have roughly 15% regeneration across the board equivalent if we spam drink pots... And if your build happens to match my numbers.

In my view instead of this, we should just get a strong baseline regeneration. I actually wouldn't mind if Argonians had no +health at all, if instead they would give us something like +30% to health/mag/stamina. it would be unique and useful to any build.

Chrlynsch · February 2016

AshTal wrote: »

Why should Argonian's be handicapped by the only race who must consume potions to get their bonus and its a crap bonus on top of that.

If your that worried about stats and are a min maxers you are using drinks anyway.

PlagueMonk · February 2016

Prothwata wrote: »

AshTal wrote: »

Why should Argonian's be handicapped by the only race who must consume potions to get their bonus and its a crap bonus on top of that.

If your that worried about stats and are a min maxers you are using drinks anyway.

You are completely MISSING the point.

I'm assuming your main is probably something like a HE who has +10% magicka and regen. That means regardless of anything that happens in the game you will continue to have 10% more magicka and your magicka will keep ticking off 10% better. Period.

Agronians on the otherhand don't get that constant. We ALL use potions, its a proven fact but are your bonuses above tied to having a potion in use? Does your magicka stop ticking 10% faster because your forgot to drink a new potion the moment the CD was refreshed? Will it suddenly stop because you didn't bring enough of something to that dungeon or PvP? Will they be delayed if you have to make or buy more? Will your abilities be suspended because you are waiting on some CD?

If you can't answer yes to ANY and all of my questions then you don't get it.

Jar_Ek · February 2016

@dodgehopper_ESO tbh I am of a similar opinion but I figured we may as well know roughly what we are getting. The big issue is the maintenance, but I guess I'll have to get used to it if I rock clever alchemist.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO tbh I am of a similar opinion but I figured we may as well know roughly what we are getting. The big issue is the maintenance, but I guess I'll have to get used to it if I rock clever alchemist.

I know. I appreciate you doing the math to compare the efficacy of the potion attribute. I'm just saying what I Think would be a more logical and streamlined design. I think their nose is pretty hard-set on the potion thing though.

deleted220701-004865 · February 2016

It's clear that they want Argonians to develop drinking problems.... so they'll stay in their huts all day spiraling into depression, low self-esteem and socio-economic problems.....until they have finally sunk so low as a community that they will never again oppose the master races.

Duiwel · February 2016

Why would you pick an Argonian anyway? racials are garbage... ( this coming from someone who deleted their argonian templar in exchange for an Altmer )

Sure the race looks cool but the passives make it a useless class... much like the Nord.

Lysette · February 2016

Slurg wrote: »

Are people actually happy about this garbage? How about a passive that doesn't require me to use a potion (that has cool down time) to be effective, just like all the other races have?

It is something special, no other race has this ability - it just depends on if you can be creative enough to make good use of it or not. My personal opinion about it is that it is a very powerful passive if used in the right combination together with other skills and under specific conditions. But it is for certain not something what you can spam, it requires thoughtful game play.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · February 2016

having to still be using potions to get a crappy buff, while others get basic stat increase (wichmeans also damage increase) ....
buffing crappy mechanic s still a crappy mechanic

cazlonb16_ESO · February 2016

Duiwel wrote: »

Why would you pick an Argonian anyway? racials are garbage... ( this coming from someone who deleted their argonian templar in exchange for an Altmer )

Sure the race looks cool but the passives make it a useless class... much like the Nord.

Well, a lot of people created their characters shortly after release and with soft caps in place the differences between races were small. It was the revamp of the combat system combined with no according rework of the racials bringing the current situation about. At that point not everyone wanted to reroll a better race anymore and in non-competitive content it's not necessary either. If you don't run trials or pvp regularly Argonian is just good enough.

It's just when entering competitive content that the large difference between Argonians and the better designed races become appearant.

Lysette · February 2016

Well, it is something for potion users. So if you are not liking potions that much, it is not for you. i think that is much like with alchemy in other TES games. A lot of people have the attitude "I am not picking flowers, I am not a girl" - well, alchemy made you incredibly powerful in those games, once you had mastered it - I was happily picking flowers, because I knew what I was doing it for. And so it is with this passive here as well - it goes well together with a set of other skills - but you have to be creative and combine them and use them under the right conditions.

Slurg · February 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

Are people actually happy about this garbage? How about a passive that doesn't require me to use a potion (that has cool down time) to be effective, just like all the other races have?

It is something special, no other race has this ability - it just depends on if you can be creative enough to make good use of it or not. My personal opinion about it is that it is a very powerful passive if used in the right combination together with other skills and under specific conditions. But it is for certain not something what you can spam, it requires thoughtful game play.

Wow, you are really determined to polish this turd into a diamond. No other race has the handicaps that tying potion use to passives bring. Underhandedly insulting people by implying if they don't think it's good they aren't "creative" or "thoughtful" enough to use it well does not make your case any more convincing. When you are competing with characters playing other races that do not have these limitations it does make a difference.

It's clear ZOS is doubling down on the potions and is not backing off this, so those of us who chose Argonians when this game started (with soft caps that reduced the impact of racial choices) can only accept it and either beg to pay for a race change or use more potions to try to keep up with everyone else during the windows our potions aren't on cooldown.

But I am not thanking our overlords for throwing us table scraps and calling it a feast.

Lysette · February 2016

Slurg wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

Are people actually happy about this garbage? How about a passive that doesn't require me to use a potion (that has cool down time) to be effective, just like all the other races have?

It is something special, no other race has this ability - it just depends on if you can be creative enough to make good use of it or not. My personal opinion about it is that it is a very powerful passive if used in the right combination together with other skills and under specific conditions. But it is for certain not something what you can spam, it requires thoughtful game play.

Wow, you are really determined to polish this turd into a diamond. No other race has the handicaps that tying potion use to passives bring. Underhandedly insulting people by implying if they don't think it's good they aren't "creative" or "thoughtful" enough to use it well does not make your case any more convincing. When you are competing with characters playing other races that do not have these limitations it does make a difference.

It's clear ZOS is doubling down on the potions and is not backing off this, so those of us who chose Argonians when this game started (with soft caps that reduced the impact of racial choices) can only accept it and either beg to pay for a race change or use more potions to try to keep up with everyone else during the windows our potions aren't on cooldown.

But I am not thanking our overlords for throwing us table scraps and calling it a feast.

See, I see this all from a role play perspective, I give a damn about class/race balance, I think that class/race imbalance makes for good role play and not balance. Use what you got and make the best out of it - and if it is a unique ability like this one, then use your brain to make it an awesome ability - and this is possible, I figured out how, but I won't tell you, because I want to use that for my own advantage. I ditched a Dunmer to get my Argonian, that convinced i am about that this is a very strong passive. But I wont try to convince you - you can play as you like. Just saying, there is a hidden pearl in this passive, you just have to find it.

Aquanova · February 2016

Who cares?.....Argonians are still crap!

I want race change!.......PERIOD!