Why SHOULDN'T players be rewarded for saving stuff?

Rebeccas04nub18_ESO · February 2016

Sounds like socialism.

Heindrich · February 2016

Rebeccas04nub18_ESO wrote: »

Sounds like socialism.

Socialism mixed with a perpetual hamster wheel for the endless grind because they expect us to start from scratch with every DLC since all the gold, AP and mats you saved aren't apparently supposed to give you an advantage over newer/less active/lazier players.

Valn · February 2016

Heindrich wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

I think everyone should start equal and not have the option to buy new gear instantly. I think everyone should work towards earning new gear instead of buying it straight away because they saved up loads.

I think it's unfair on other players who haven't saved up and they would be at a disadvantage.

Cos let's face it, those who can save are also those who will most likely stick around and enjoy their delayed gratification. I mean who grinds their way to their ideal endgame gear and just stops playing cos "oh now I can't get any more gear"?

This really stood out to me because it is in fact the opposite of what happens. People tend to leave the game after they have their end game gear and don't stick around, because there is no progression for them. This happens in a lot of MMOs...

No offense but that's precisely what I disagree with.

The real life equivalent here is that if you were a conscientious citizen who worked most of your adult life and paid your taxes and pension contributions, and then when you retired, you find that your government pension is the same as the guy who didn't do a day's work in his life, never paid taxes and never saved for retirement.

If ESO adopts such a system... why would anyone bother to work? Anyone remotely ambitious or aspirational will move away and the game will die except as a massive casual singleplayer questing theme park.

Your real life equivalent makes zero sense.

I was under the impression that new sets of gear would be just another thing to work towards rather than be "rewards" for people who played the game loads.

I just think that new gear should be earned and not bought instantly. Well...maybe a few pieces could be bought straight away, but definitely not a whole set.

Elsonso · February 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Personally, I just think they should put the new gear in there and make it very expensive. They can tune this per player demographics as new stuff is added, but newly available stuff should be at a premium. When newer stuff comes in, drop the cost on the older stuff to a more normal price. Soak the rich with an early adopter tax. Not ideal, but better than a number of other ideas.

I don't know if they can add items for AP on a regular basis, like monthly. Before the Crown Store, I would say that they could. With the Crown Store focus, they probably would be challenged to do this.

No.

The items that exists now....bump it up a little. Many are just now updated from VR14, etc.

Think of it this way.
If we still had VR levels to climb on DLC roll outs.

DLC hits....and it's VR18.
Month one you get new VR17 gear with better stats blues and purples.
Month two you get VR17 - VR18 gear with better stats blues and purples.
Month three you get Vr 17-18 gear with better stats purple and yellow.

Keep the cycling going. It's not new stuff in the game. It's new vendor stuff so that this system doesn't negate crafting gear and sets but it does provide a progression for ppl that if you PvP only, there are rewards.

The price should never change and this creates a "season" concept for PvP

This same logic should occur in PvE but they need to scrap the undaunted keys and award a currency.

Make sense?

I think it is reasonable that older gear is sold for less when it has less function than the new stuff. The reason for the suggestion about changing prices, and soaking the rich on new stuff, is to pull the excess currency out of the game. Prices are set based on the available currency in the game.

It is not clear how they are going to do things when Veteran Ranks are removed, so I am not sure how much room there is going to be for gear. They are only going to raise the CP cap by about 50, so I expect the gear will go up by as much? With Champion System, the more points you have in the pot, the less each point is worth. If they keep gear paced with CP, the difference in gear will become entirely cosmetic because the character power will not be changing much each 'season'.

With the Crown Store, I stand by the statement that they won't have the resources to be working on monthly gear. They could do recolors, but only if they make sure that the Dye system cannot be used with them.

My main thoughts have been about AP, not keys. I know people are sitting on keys. I am not sure whether Wrobel's answer was really directed at keys. I would have to go back and listen to it. Personally, I don't think keys are as big of an issue.

Magdalina · February 2016

Valn wrote: »

Heindrich wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

I think everyone should start equal and not have the option to buy new gear instantly. I think everyone should work towards earning new gear instead of buying it straight away because they saved up loads.

I think it's unfair on other players who haven't saved up and they would be at a disadvantage.

Cos let's face it, those who can save are also those who will most likely stick around and enjoy their delayed gratification. I mean who grinds their way to their ideal endgame gear and just stops playing cos "oh now I can't get any more gear"?

This really stood out to me because it is in fact the opposite of what happens. People tend to leave the game after they have their end game gear and don't stick around, because there is no progression for them. This happens in a lot of MMOs...

No offense but that's precisely what I disagree with.

The real life equivalent here is that if you were a conscientious citizen who worked most of your adult life and paid your taxes and pension contributions, and then when you retired, you find that your government pension is the same as the guy who didn't do a day's work in his life, never paid taxes and never saved for retirement.

If ESO adopts such a system... why would anyone bother to work? Anyone remotely ambitious or aspirational will move away and the game will die except as a massive casual singleplayer questing theme park.

Your real life equivalent makes zero sense.

I was under the impression that new sets of gear would be just another thing to work towards rather than be "rewards" for people who played the game loads.

I just think that new gear should be earned and not bought instantly. Well...maybe a few pieces could be bought straight away, but definitely not a whole set.

So what should be the reward for players who play loads then? Should there be none? "Oh sorry guys, I know you played heaps and got f***all for it last dlc but you can keep playing this dlc and maybe this time you'll actually get something for it!^.^ Or maybe not. Keep playing though, we'll definitely let you know eventually!"

Valn · February 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Heindrich wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

I think everyone should start equal and not have the option to buy new gear instantly. I think everyone should work towards earning new gear instead of buying it straight away because they saved up loads.

I think it's unfair on other players who haven't saved up and they would be at a disadvantage.

Cos let's face it, those who can save are also those who will most likely stick around and enjoy their delayed gratification. I mean who grinds their way to their ideal endgame gear and just stops playing cos "oh now I can't get any more gear"?

This really stood out to me because it is in fact the opposite of what happens. People tend to leave the game after they have their end game gear and don't stick around, because there is no progression for them. This happens in a lot of MMOs...

No offense but that's precisely what I disagree with.

The real life equivalent here is that if you were a conscientious citizen who worked most of your adult life and paid your taxes and pension contributions, and then when you retired, you find that your government pension is the same as the guy who didn't do a day's work in his life, never paid taxes and never saved for retirement.

If ESO adopts such a system... why would anyone bother to work? Anyone remotely ambitious or aspirational will move away and the game will die except as a massive casual singleplayer questing theme park.

Your real life equivalent makes zero sense.

I was under the impression that new sets of gear would be just another thing to work towards rather than be "rewards" for people who played the game loads.

I just think that new gear should be earned and not bought instantly. Well...maybe a few pieces could be bought straight away, but definitely not a whole set.

So what should be the reward for players who play loads then? Should there be none? "Oh sorry guys, I know you played heaps and got f***all for it last dlc but you can keep playing this dlc and maybe this time you'll actually get something for it!^.^ Or maybe not. Keep playing though, we'll definitely let you know eventually!"

The reward would be buying the next set of pvp gear for playing loads.....or are you talking about rewarding players who played loads BEFORE new pvp gear came out?

I think everyone should start on a clean slate for the next pvp sets....and the people who play loads wil be rewarded by getting points to buy the gear.

the entitlement is strong

HoloYoitsu · February 2016

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

It's well past time to take away some of Wrobel's responsibility/power and hand it to someone that has a clue.

His decisions are slowly ruining what was once a great game.

Not so slowly anymore.

Minsc · February 2016

I think Derra's sarcastic post is right to the point for people like Valn

Derra wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

Playtime Caps?

I think they should do that. Not playtime but after playing 1 hour a day you can no longer loot anything or earn points in any form. Nor accept or complete any new quests, harvest something or interact with the environment in any form.

It´s unfair people with more time can get real advantages in the game!!!!

strikeback1247 · February 2016

Rebeccas04nub18_ESO wrote: »

Sounds like socialism.

ZoS are *** commies confirmed!

Abeille · February 2016

Valn wrote: »

Heindrich wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

I think everyone should start equal and not have the option to buy new gear instantly. I think everyone should work towards earning new gear instead of buying it straight away because they saved up loads.

I think it's unfair on other players who haven't saved up and they would be at a disadvantage.

Cos let's face it, those who can save are also those who will most likely stick around and enjoy their delayed gratification. I mean who grinds their way to their ideal endgame gear and just stops playing cos "oh now I can't get any more gear"?

This really stood out to me because it is in fact the opposite of what happens. People tend to leave the game after they have their end game gear and don't stick around, because there is no progression for them. This happens in a lot of MMOs...

No offense but that's precisely what I disagree with.

The real life equivalent here is that if you were a conscientious citizen who worked most of your adult life and paid your taxes and pension contributions, and then when you retired, you find that your government pension is the same as the guy who didn't do a day's work in his life, never paid taxes and never saved for retirement.

If ESO adopts such a system... why would anyone bother to work? Anyone remotely ambitious or aspirational will move away and the game will die except as a massive casual singleplayer questing theme park.

Your real life equivalent makes zero sense.

I was under the impression that new sets of gear would be just another thing to work towards rather than be "rewards" for people who played the game loads.

I just think that new gear should be earned and not bought instantly. Well...maybe a few pieces could be bought straight away, but definitely not a whole set.

I don't understand. How they didn't "earn" the AP to buy the gear, though?

How does the fact that they gained their AP in the past invalidates that AP gain? What is wrong with them buying it instantly if they already piled up their AP in the past? They already worked towards it, in the past. I didn't do that, so I would have to work towards it now. And that's fair.

ZOS_GregoryV · February 2016

Greetings all,

We are glad that every is this thread is rather active. We understand not everyone may be happy with the changes that have been made, as well as the changes that are to be made. We would however like to request that the conversation be kept civil and constructive. Thank you for your understanding.

emeraldbay · February 2016

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

We are glad that every is this thread is rather active.

...what

on topic, I think new prices should be balanced according to the amount you'd expect someone to earn, not according to the amount people already happen to have saved up.

corrosivechains · February 2016

sorry, thought it was a different post I was following

TheBull · February 2016

@ZOS_MattFiror

Any input you would like to provide?

sylviermoone · February 2016

Sure, let's just wipe out everyone's AP and introduce caps so that the system will be fair and balanced for everyone.

While we're at it, let's:
-wipe out the mats everyone has stored up. You shouldn't hoard mats.
-wipe out tempers that people have been saving up. No hoarding Alloys or Kuta!
-remove every player's personal wealth: gold, AP, TelVar
-reset all personal and guild banks to zero. No gold, no items. Because it's fun to start over for no reason!!
-erase ALL character gains upon logging out. We want to make sure EVERYONE has a fair shot, right?
-make it so that whenever you log back in, you have to make a new character and start at the tutorial.
-reduce the inactivity bump to 5 seconds.

This post has been brought to you by the letter S, for Sarcasm.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Personally, I just think they should put the new gear in there and make it very expensive. They can tune this per player demographics as new stuff is added, but newly available stuff should be at a premium. When newer stuff comes in, drop the cost on the older stuff to a more normal price. Soak the rich with an early adopter tax. Not ideal, but better than a number of other ideas.

I don't know if they can add items for AP on a regular basis, like monthly. Before the Crown Store, I would say that they could. With the Crown Store focus, they probably would be challenged to do this.

No.

The items that exists now....bump it up a little. Many are just now updated from VR14, etc.

Think of it this way.
If we still had VR levels to climb on DLC roll outs.

DLC hits....and it's VR18.
Month one you get new VR17 gear with better stats blues and purples.
Month two you get VR17 - VR18 gear with better stats blues and purples.
Month three you get Vr 17-18 gear with better stats purple and yellow.

Keep the cycling going. It's not new stuff in the game. It's new vendor stuff so that this system doesn't negate crafting gear and sets but it does provide a progression for ppl that if you PvP only, there are rewards.

The price should never change and this creates a "season" concept for PvP

This same logic should occur in PvE but they need to scrap the undaunted keys and award a currency.

Make sense?

I think it is reasonable that older gear is sold for less when it has less function than the new stuff. The reason for the suggestion about changing prices, and soaking the rich on new stuff, is to pull the excess currency out of the game. Prices are set based on the available currency in the game.

It is not clear how they are going to do things when Veteran Ranks are removed, so I am not sure how much room there is going to be for gear. They are only going to raise the CP cap by about 50, so I expect the gear will go up by as much? With Champion System, the more points you have in the pot, the less each point is worth. If they keep gear paced with CP, the difference in gear will become entirely cosmetic because the character power will not be changing much each 'season'.

With the Crown Store, I stand by the statement that they won't have the resources to be working on monthly gear. They could do recolors, but only if they make sure that the Dye system cannot be used with them.

My main thoughts have been about AP, not keys. I know people are sitting on keys. I am not sure whether Wrobel's answer was really directed at keys. I would have to go back and listen to it. Personally, I don't think keys are as big of an issue.

Hhmmmm O K that makes sense so in what I'm trying to share let's add your comments.
Maybe every month the old slides down in price, the new replaces the last month and the later slides down as well.
Perhaps there would be many tiers and then a bottom. Maybe 5-8 price tiers or less.

I don't believe a price on AP higher than what exists is necessary but instead valuable items is what's missing.

Agree about things after VR but if we follow their shared thoughts. Every month we have an item increase based on 16-18 CPs. That seems in line with the 50+ CP cap increase per DLC.

Crown store. I don't know if my comments align there. I'll leave that alone. I have little to no feedback cause other than them adding the universal crafting mats I don't think gear in a crown store is a good thing. Not saying that's your idea but my idea is gear progression based.

I agree his comments were on AP for sure. I personally believe that if ZOS attempts to address one without the other currencies, it becomes a miss step

oibam · February 2016

What are APs for? I thought you earn them and then you can buy better gear to progress on some ways.

But if we will get the new PvP Gear only by reward mails:

WHAT ARE THE AP FOR THEN?

to buy outdated V14 gear? or ugly crafting motifs?

strikeback1247 · February 2016

oibam wrote: »

What are APs for? I thought you earn them and then you can buy better gear to progress on some ways.

But when we will get the new PvP Gear only by reward mails:

WHAT ARE THE AP FOR THEN?

Motifs, monter sets and other gear from the new vendor I guess.

ku5h · February 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

Obviously he has no idea whats he doing! His solution for ppl having to much AP hoarded is, not giving them anything to spend it on, so the hoard grows even bigger. The problem just grows. One guy suggested expiration on AP. Are you f.... soft in the head. How about expiration on your gold and mats, ha?!" Dont give them anymore bright ideas pls.

Just as a side not, when they introduced that monster helms are are going to be sold in Cyro for "crap load of AP", someone made a tread how much that "crap load" should be. General consensus was about 600k up to over 1M AP. And what they do put them in for 200k, so now i can buy every tipe in every trate. And why did they do that, someone might ask himself? Well they did it so some random Jack who plays 1hr a week wont have to "grind" for a year to get it. Shame where this game is going, damn shame...

Well hold on. The game should work for average Jane or Bob too.
Now...the currency should be tiered in ways that better items cost more based on existing max qualities.
The problem comes when you suggest something should cost more....well that's the Wroble logic cause he doesn't want players with tons to be maxed. You follow?

No, I dont follow. You dont want me to be maxed, who spent 100s of hrs in PvP, because some guy that plays for 1 hr wont be maxed to. Well fit that is their logic i can quit playing right now.

No.
My logic is you should be maxed on cause you put in the time. BUT the guy who plays 1 hour a day should be able to buy 2-3 pieces at their rate of play. The price shouldn't be at the current or higher cause the idea is to keep players spending AP/TV

If the game offers new things to buy 12 times a year on a frequency of once per month, you with tons of AP will eventually spend out. The person who doesn't play as often will have 1 piece of this, 1 piece of that being mix matched but continuing to be viable because he's buying the same set but each month, the stats change for PvP.
With this logic, please understand that I also feel that skills should have PvP effects that differ in PvE for those same exact skills.

This rectifies the AP, TV problems and encourages those who play 1 hour a day to play more. Maybe they can't but others can so it begins to motivate players to play more so they can earn rewards and offers the PvP/PvE players a reward system as well that can utilize TV/AP/Gold currencies all through one vendor instead of splitting items by vendor and by currency.

Make sense?

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. That is the ideal scenario, and if we had that we wouldnt be here complaining. But sadly, reality is, we have nothing to spend our "earned" currency on, and are being "punished" for having to much of it. By punished im refering to his statement, that he doent want to put in gear so someone who already earned bunch of AP can just buy it.

KramUzibra · February 2016

sylviermoone wrote: »

Sure, let's just wipe out everyone's AP and introduce caps so that the system will be fair and balanced for everyone.

While we're at it, let's:
-wipe out the mats everyone has stored up. You shouldn't hoard mats.
-wipe out tempers that people have been saving up. No hoarding Alloys or Kuta!
-remove every player's personal wealth: gold, AP, TelVar
-reset all personal and guild banks to zero. No gold, no items. Because it's fun to start over for no reason!!
-erase ALL character gains upon logging out. We want to make sure EVERYONE has a fair shot, right?
-make it so that whenever you log back in, you have to make a new character and start at the tutorial.
-reduce the inactivity bump to 5 seconds.

This post has been brought to you by the letter S, for Sarcasm.

Sarcasm or not you make a valid point.

KramUzibra · February 2016

Heindrich wrote: »

Rebeccas04nub18_ESO wrote: »

Sounds like socialism.

Socialism mixed with a perpetual hamster wheel for the endless grind because they expect us to start from scratch with every DLC since all the gold, AP and mats you saved aren't apparently supposed to give you an advantage over newer/less active/lazier players.

Exactly! The reality of life is that every person should be given equal opportunity yet understood that every person is not equal. We all worked for this ap we earned it we should have the option to either spend it or wait for better content and spend it then. So what if when launched I'm able to purchase all the new content because I have a surplus of ap. This is why I save most of my gold. I hope one day Zenimax removes bop which will allow players to place unique items in the guild stores since i work 50+ hours a week i dont have the time to grind Maelstrom arena dungeons and the trials. I apologize for straying off topic but the point remains the same for AP. Im saving ap just incase something good comes out. I save telvar stones just incase they update content in imperial city. Please don't take what I rightfully worked for.

Vaoh · February 2016

AP caps seem to provide nothing else besides a creative way to make a lot of PvP players angry... maybe Tel Var Stone/Gold caps will be next if this happens?

revonine · February 2016

People who had the foresight to save should not be punished for it. The most sought after sets (shadowwalker) are in RNG boxes anyway just the same as Kena was day 1 of IC release which people hoarded keys for back then too. And they let that one slide. Your not guaranteed to obtain what your saving for.

FullBlownBeast · February 2016

TheBull wrote: »

@ZOS_MattFiror

Any input you would like to provide?

He will provide input at a later time, but no ETA right now.

corrosivechains · February 2016

can you imagine if they put a cap on the crowns you get for being subbed and the reason was they didnt want you buying up all the DLC's if you ever decided to unsub?

Vaoh · February 2016

@corrosivechains I have 12,900 crowns. Bought a bunch during the discount.... Please don't give them ideas!

mhitchenb16_ESO · February 2016

Gonna have to speak out against this.

It's a fallacy. The reason people have so much AP hoarded is because they don't have anything worthwhile to spend it on. Adding a new 200k monster piece each weekend won't be enough of an AP dump when players can get enough to buy every variety listed that weekend just pvping some hours every day Monday-Friday. If you don't want people to have so much AP, they need something worthwhile to spend it on.

It's ridiculous to even consider imposing a cap after nearly two years of uncapped AP gain in your most loyal players. It's punishing the people who've constantly played, who continue to do PvP in a Cyrodiil that's only getting progressively more laggy and unstable over the years.

The only reason people have so much AP accrued is because they have been given nothing to spend it on. Sets were upgraded to V14 and then completely abandoned there. They're irrelevant nowadays, completely irrelevant. Bump them to V16, add the new sets onto the vendors, allow people to trade AP for V16 mats, Tempers, treasure maps, motif pieces, all sorts. Make it a viable currency and you'll realize that people are suddenly hoarding a lot less of it - Because there's something to spend it on!

If this means the people who've allowed it to accrue over the past six months get the new sets first, then who cares? It's not like they're a power increase. V16 is still V16. Sure it's a bit of initial build variety opening up but everybody will quickly catch up. It'll balance out. It's better to accept something like that happening ONCE (and never afterwards, because now by this point you've made AP a viable currency and it'll be hoarded a LOT less after doing this) than to implement a change that will potentially make people LEAVE.

That's something that has to be drilled in. The reason AP is being hoarded is due to a developer fault in not allowing us to spend it on things that matter, in bulk. Punishing players for this is not the way. People. Will. Leave. People. Will. Leave. It's this way due to a design flaw: There will always be fallout. Better a temporary fallout that will balance out than one that will, I'll say it again, make people STOP PLAYING.

Please, reconsider.

Styrlaug · February 2016

Please, do not do this. This is without a doubt a deal breaker for so, so many players and you will lose loyal fans of this game.

I've gone through something similar a few years ago on another game that went through an economy reset. People had been playing for years, and overnight their wallets were completely wiped in order to "level the playing field". I quit. A four year veteran quit.

This will happen here, I can assure you.

Do not do this. You will lose players, and even those that stay will have lost trust.

Personofsecrets · February 2016

"not everyone is happy with these changes"

I think that may mistakenly imply that any players are happy with the changes.

Dahkoht · February 2016

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

We are glad that every is this thread is rather active. We understand not everyone may be happy with the changes that have been made, as well as the changes that are to be made. We would however like to request that the conversation be kept civil and constructive. Thank you for your understanding.

You mean "most" not happy it seems ?