Why SHOULDN'T players be rewarded for saving stuff?

Heindrich · February 2016

Last night @Wrobel mentioned on ESO Live that AP vendors in Cyrodil will not be selling VR16 PvP sets, which can only be obtained from Rewards of the Worthy and campaign rewards. His reasoning was that too many people have saved up too much AP and he doesn't want them to be able to obtain full VR16 sets immediately. He even floated the idea of some sort of AP cap to prevent AP hoarding in the future.

This type of argument has also been made in the past with regards to crafting materials "We don't want people to be able to instantly craft full VR16 sets".

The reasoning given is that if people can obtain everything they want immediately, then it gives them an advantage over those who haven't saved. It also gives savers less reason to play the game because they already have what they want.

I don't know if it's just me but I find this line of thinking baffling. Since when did "hard work", delaying gratification and saving for a better future become a sin?! In most western countries the problem is precisely the opposite, people borrow too much and save too little and everybody wants instant gratification.

So what if somebody who planned ahead, did the graft and saved for the future had an advantage over somebody who spent all their gold/AP on whatever they probably didn't even need for some instant gratification now? In fact so what if a dedicated and active player has an advantage over a casual who doesn't play enough to ever save much of anything? Cos let's face it, those who can save are also those who will most likely stick around and enjoy their delayed gratification. I mean who grinds their way to their ideal endgame gear and just stops playing cos "oh now I can't get any more gear"?

Please note that I am not asking for stuff to be easier to obtain, for example if VR16 gear was crafted with voidstone/shadowhide etc... I don't mind if VR16 parts cost 1000 pieces each! I don't mind if they significantly increased the AP cost of gear for VR16 parts. But why would you discourage active players, intelligent players and aspirational players from ever being sensible and prudent with their resources?! It genuinely baffles me!

For the record I am not even a hardcore PvP'er, I only have about 2M AP saved up. I have a lot more gold, but now I am beginning to wonder why I bother to save gold if this is Zenimax's attitude to saving in general.

Mojmir · February 2016

Certainly had no problem with people hoarding keys from pledges when ic hit,sounds like a d bag move.they're your points,u earned them. His argument is invalid

KochDerDamonen · February 2016

Maybe we'll end up with a new currency every expansion to keep people farming for the new thing (BoP and random trait, of course)

khele23eb17_ESO · February 2016

The reward for work well done is more work.

AlnilamE · February 2016

I think most of the players who have a lot of AP weren't "saving" it. They just had nothing to spend it on.

Abeille · February 2016

I don't understand this either.

It is like not releasing crafted sets anymore because "lots of people already researched all the traits and farmed all the mats". I don't understand the logic behind it. Work done in the past is still work.

Elijah_Crow · February 2016

@Wrobel

@ZOS_RichLambert

I understand from a developer standpoint, the desire to launch new content and have said content have a certain life span of driving players to obtain certain objects and gear. When said content becomes stale, there is a need to release new things to achieve, gear to acquire, etc.

Yesterday during ESO live, it was made clear the intent is that when new content is launched, that all players be on a level playing field and others cannot bypass by doing pre-work. This makes sense, however:

It is incredibly insensitive to those who have already done this pre-work to reveal that the developers do not intend to allow for this in the future, without also talking about ways in which you might reward the time they have already invested.

The current system has always implied that saving AP for future release of gear, etc was something the game encouraged, so this revelation was a change in direction for many.

Any conversation such as this should also have included discussion of rewards someone might have used that saved up AP to acquire.

Edit - New and relevant rewards that is. You designed a game system and people have been playing for extended time to earn AP. It's fine to change the system going forward, but first reward those who have been playing your current system before implementing such a radical change.

A new type of currency with each season makes sense. You could consider offering a currency exchange at a 100 to 1 ratio, however that will allow the most hard core to still bypass the design goal. Food for thought.

Septimus_Magna · February 2016

Its absolutely ridiculous that pvp players get punished for saving AP when there's nothing useful to buy.

Turelus · February 2016

Also why are players allowed to save gold/silver keys before updates to instantly open 40+ chests and gain VR16 shoulders?

I didn't see any system to stop this from happening because they would get gear to fast.

All set at all levels. Make this one of the best years for ESO and start making innovation possible again.

Gidorick · February 2016

Why don't they just put an expiration on AP?

strikeback1247 · February 2016

I kind of agree with Wrobel on this one even though they are not really consistent with these things. If they make the new pvp sets purchasable with AP, why not make all the new pve sets purchasable with gold? Same principle. I don't really like the idea of being able to get all the new gear the second after you've patched. Besides, you'll have plenty of stuff to spend AP on when the new vendor comes

Also people need to stop saving and spend more on sieges and repair kits

Draxys · February 2016

The bottom line is that his ideas on that are asinine and logically incoherent, especially considering that there has not been sufficient things to spend AP on for many, many months now.

Tavore1138 · February 2016

I'm with the OP here - I have been saving up AP, VR16 mats and so on for the last few weeks so I am ready to jump into the new DLC... it seems an odd choice to punish people for prudent planning, any player can do this and no rational brand new player is going to have an issue with having to catch up if they start at level 1 on TG (emphasis on 'rational').

Wanting new players to be able to complete fairly quickly is fine but that is there already:

- Getting to VR16 does not take that long, less if you are a grinder.
- CP are scaled so that you will get the first few hundred very fast.
- You can obtain crafting skills and mats quite easily.
- The crafted sets are sufficiently varied and useful to make a decent player competitive quickly.

Obviously those who have run dungeons, trials, PvP and other content will have built up more variety and have some better situational gear but penalising players for that just encourages people not to bother running content at all because they know that when the next DLC arrives it'll either invalidate their work or there will be a quick and easy way for new players to get the same stuff so why not just wait 3 months and take advantage of that. Sometimes I wonder if the devs grasp how people are motivated at all....

runagate · February 2016

So is there a gold cap so people can't just go buy what they want from a vendor?

That makes absolutely no sense. It makes so little sense that I didn't even understand what he was trying to say when I watched the live stream. I'm glad you posted this.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · February 2016

I'd like to point out that we also need a cap on play time then, because people who play more than me also have the items sooner than me. So, please don't log in from 11pm to 6pm on weekdays, tyvm.

Targuris · February 2016

They either need to demote him and bring someone on with better ideas, fire him, or get some consultant.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2016

I disagree with almost everything he tried to convince us of on the last ESO live.

I don't even PvP much but I do passionately disagree that not giving something because ppl have anything saved up is the wrong direction.

I question if he and the team realize....in this context AP but otherwise, anything saved up means your content and rewards have no value. Adding something that causes ppl to spend AP is a good thing. Those who have a lot saved up should be rewarded as they worked for it.

It's this BS that ZOS has...reminds me of the crap they did when CP was added where they only gave credit for the highest VR instead of all VRs.

This stuff will end up driving ppl away because their logic is that effort doesn't lead to just rewards. Why even play if once you get to a certain point ZOS will intentionally negate your progress.

Drungly · February 2016

It's stupid reasoning, because Zenimax caused people to hoard AP in the first place.

slumber_sandb16_ESO · February 2016

For one DLC they need to bring in another team just to see how much better they can do in comparison..

dlepi24 · February 2016

Maybe if there's been something valuable in the AP vendors in the last 6 months we would've spent our AP. Do these guys play their own game?

KramUzibra · February 2016

strikeback1247 wrote: »

I kind of agree with Wrobel on this one even though they are not really consistent with these things. If they make the new pvp sets purchasable with AP, why not make all the new pve sets purchasable with gold? Same principle. I don't really like the idea of being able to get all the new gear the second after you've patched. Besides, you'll have plenty of stuff to spend AP on when the new vendor comes

Also people need to stop saving and spend more on sieges and repair kits

I feel they should update the existing purchasable to vet 16

Jar_Ek · February 2016

Traditionally we get a new currency when they want us to work for something new, like Tel Var so everyone has to start from scratch. However in this case as the top pvper earn at least at a x10 rate compared to casuals I think it is kinda a moot point. @zos You need a better AP sink basically and exorbitant AP prices (or RNG via rewards for the worthy) is a decent one.

D0ntevenL1ft · February 2016

You're supposed to buy 100k ballistas just to ball out. Down with the AP saving and people who want to bank AP are more clinically insane than I - wrobel

Waffennacht · February 2016

So because some players saved AP they will make it only the TOP pvp players can get the items?

To me this makes it even worse, someone like me whom does PvP but doesn't have really the opportunity to get into the top 100s means that no matter how much I save or work, ill never get those rewards.

It's the exact opposite of what they are leading us to believe, "we don't want the top PvP players to instantly get the items... se want it where ONLY the top PvP Players can get them!" (I then imagine an evil laugh with hand wringing)

Zyle · February 2016

Wonder how long it'll take for a response to this. Took months to get a response from Wrobel to begin with. @ZOS_RichLambert Please tell me you can save the day Rich...please fix this mess.

Xendyn · February 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I disagree with almost everything he tried to convince us of on the last ESO live.

I don't even PvP much but I do passionately disagree that not giving something because ppl have anything saved up is the wrong direction.

I question if he and the team realize....in this context AP but otherwise, anything saved up means your content and rewards have no value. Adding something that causes ppl to spend AP is a good thing. Those who have a lot saved up should be rewarded as they worked for it.

It's this BS that ZOS has...reminds me of the crap they did when CP was added where they only gave credit for the highest VR instead of all VRs.

This stuff will end up driving ppl away because their logic is that effort doesn't lead to just rewards. Why even play if once you get to a certain point ZOS will intentionally negate your progress.

That right there^
If they don't want people saving AP, then give them something worthwhile to spend it on.
Seriously, someone needs to take away Wrobel's Nerf toys.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO · February 2016

Really!?

This is one of the most pathetic things I've heard. I'm having to scrimp, save and farm like hell to craft V16 gear for my current characters and future characters. Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents P*** Poor Performance!!!

Guess what @Worbel The hard core PvP players are going to get the V16 sets through rewards of the worthy far faster then those who are casual in PvP no matter what. In fact by not even letting you buy the V16 with AP the chances of getting a set of the PvP gear is next to ZERO for casual PvP.

Is the object to get more people involved in Cyrofiil. Not going to happen mate until you full address the problems with PvP. And there are plenty of threads in this forum pointing the problems out.

Seriously, does every MMO company have a competition between themselves to come up with the most pathetic way to annoy their player base and to come up with the most stupid reason for it.

Guess what guys, we've set the cap of CP to 3,600 but you're not going to see it for 15 years because Tiny Tim only plays for one hour a week.
We didn't intend for Animation Cancelling to be in the game but let's keep it in as it's the closet we can do to a CoD head shot.

Hiding behind the casual player only get's you so far.

EDIT: In fact @Worbel if you want to make it a fair for the casual player, get rid of Bound so experienced players can freely give items to causal players. yes there are players out there that will doing everything in their power to shaft the other players but there are those out there that will bend over backwards to help their friends and guild.

Elsonso · February 2016

I have come to realize that Wrobel apparently loves to discuss different theories about how to do things. He seems to be one of those people that can just dive into a discussion on some game play idea as a brain storming exercise, everything on the table. While he seems to find various different ideas interesting, I don't think it means he is going to do them all. It is wise to not get freaked out over theory ideas he talks about until he starts talking about what is actually going into the game.

I can see where they are coming from with using stored AP to purchase sets. From their perspective, it looks like they do not want people with large amounts of AP stored up to get rapid access to everything they are selling. This is like a spring suddenly releasing. They are probably looking for ways to slow things down.

For two years, people in the community have been asking for more visibility into what ZOS is thinking about and to be able to discuss the game at a higher level, and Wrobel seems to be open to that. We get a lot of comments from Devs saying what they have decided to do, but on the most recent ESO Live, Wrobel went well past that by discussing things that have not been decided. This is exactly what people have been clamoring for since launch, and it is an opportunity to provide input to Wrobel about things that have not yet been decided.

Don't waste it.

corrosivechains · February 2016

Draxys wrote: »

The bottom line is that his ideas on that are asinine and logically incoherent, especially considering that there has not been sufficient things to spend AP on for many, many months now.

This sums up the entirety of Wrobel. He obviously has no idea at all how this game works. At. All. Listening to him is like visiting a friend who is heavily perscribed xanax on a daily basis. They can't tell the difference between the things they have been dreaming up and the reality of day to day life.

Waffennacht · February 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

I have come to realize that Wrobel apparently loves to discuss different theories about how to do things. He seems to be one of those people that can just dive into a discussion on some game play idea as a brain storming exercise, everything on the table. While he seems to find various different ideas interesting, I don't think it means he is going to do them all. It is wise to not get freaked out over theory ideas he talks about until he starts talking about what is actually going into the game.

I can see where they are coming from with using stored AP to purchase sets. From their perspective, it looks like they do not want people with large amounts of AP stored up to get rapid access to everything they are selling. This is like a spring suddenly releasing. They are probably looking for ways to slow things down.

For two years, people in the community have been asking for more visibility into what ZOS is thinking about and to be able to discuss the game at a higher level, and Wrobel seems to be open to that. We get a lot of comments from Devs saying what they have decided to do, but on the most recent ESO Live, Wrobel went well past that by discussing things that have not been decided. This is exactly what people have been clamoring for since launch, and it is an opportunity to provide input to Wrobel about things that have not yet been decided.

Don't waste it.

Ok, i wont waste my Opportunity.

DON'T !?@# DO IT. It's illogical, it's elitist, it's a pain!

Zyle · February 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

I have come to realize that Wrobel apparently loves to discuss different theories about how to do things. He seems to be one of those people that can just dive into a discussion on some game play idea as a brain storming exercise, everything on the table. While he seems to find various different ideas interesting, I don't think it means he is going to do them all. It is wise to not get freaked out over theory ideas he talks about until he starts talking about what is actually going into the game.

I can see where they are coming from with using stored AP to purchase sets. From their perspective, it looks like they do not want people with large amounts of AP stored up to get rapid access to everything they are selling. This is like a spring suddenly releasing. They are probably looking for ways to slow things down.

For two years, people in the community have been asking for more visibility into what ZOS is thinking about and to be able to discuss the game at a higher level, and Wrobel seems to be open to that. We get a lot of comments from Devs saying what they have decided to do, but on the most recent ESO Live, Wrobel went well past that by discussing things that have not been decided. This is exactly what people have been clamoring for since launch, and it is an opportunity to provide input to Wrobel about things that have not yet been decided.

Don't waste it.

I don't think you get the true situation. He said he is reluctant to scale them because people have too much AP and would be able to buy everything at once. The ONLY REASON we have so much AP is because of him failing to scale the sets to begin with. What are we wasting? Our breath?