A note on those Dunmeri costumes

LadyNerevar · February 2016

Saw you guys do this interview with MMORPG.com. http://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/features.cfm?read=10548&game=821&ismb=1

A lot of cool stuff in there, and one very not cool thing: those "Dunmer" outfits.

We have a *whole game* set in Morrowind, with pages and pages and pages of cool, extremely unique clothing and armor design. All of it was ignored in favor of some sort of cheap, generic fantasy fetish gear. It does not, as the interview says, "further develop the cultures of Tamriel and reinforce cultural identity," nor are they, in any way imaginable, "consistent with previous depictions of the world of the Elder Scrolls."

Here, just for reference, are some of the clothes of TESIII: Morrowind:

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/10333/2702256-mw_concept_16.gif
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/a/af/Robe.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120715013525
http://images.uesp.net/f/f9/MW-npc-Shannat_Pansamsi.jpg
http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/mw_TAoM_p38.jpg

Why should you design around these previous concepts?
*Brand identity. The TESIII Dunmer have an very recognized aesthetic, while those new concepts could belong to just about any franchise.
*Brand loyalty, a.k.a. Morrowind fans are a fanatical bunch and WILL pay money when they're pandered to. Case in point: all the "ESO" branded plushies are of creatures that originally appeared in TESIII.
*Those two quotes I mentioned above. It's dishonest to say that you're honoring previous lore and previous TES games and then ignore what may be the most critically acclaimed and and persistent game in the franchise.
*It saves time! Toss your concept artist a link to the wiki and let them loose.

You're literally losing nothing by looking at older designs (except for genric T&A, I guess), and gaining *so* much.

As closing, here's a quick concept sketch I threw together in about 40 minutes. It's got old-school Dunmeri stylings and the boob window that I can only assume someone declared an essential part of the pitch. Is it perfect? No. But I'm not being paid the big buck, either (though I totally am available for being paid the big bucks ;p).

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/cp0/e15/q65/s2048x2048/12695028_10153609569049652_6723786754129972054_o.jpg

I know you can do SO much better than this, ESO. I can see it from those other outfit images. Please don't let us TES fans down. You're the face of the franchise for the next howevermany years, and we're relying on you.

Gilvoth · February 2016

i love this thread, your post, and everything you said.

i love morrowind, is there a way to bring morrowind into eso?

Faulgor · February 2016

Ha, great to see you here, and posting on an issue I can get behind 100%.

While I'm still curious what the "male" (as costumes aren't gender-specific, this doesn't really matter) Dunmer costumes will look like, I agree that the female ones look rather disappointing. While the last one features the iconic prominent shoulder pads, they don't mesh well with the rest of the costume or capture the rugged insect-like look of the Morrowind designs. And I'm a bit confused why they have gone for corsets when Dunmer clothes have always been very loose-fitting.

Your sketch features some elements which I think are worth highlighting:
- Scarf / shawl (which for other costumes could be even more elaborate and pompous)
- Brown, earthen colours
- Triangular patterns on apron and scarf

Further costumes could feature elements such as:
- The aforementioned shoulder pads
- Insectoid/shell-like ornamentation, belts, rudimentary armor pieces
- Wide, loose-fitting robes, shawls, scarfs, aprons
- Elaborate necklaces and brooches

I also wouldn't mind costumes with specific headgear, of which Dunmer have a large variety (gondolier hats, Telvanni cephalopod helmets, etc).

It is however worth noting that ESO has done a great job with the Ashlander costumes, as well as the upcoming Morag Tong crafting motif. So there's no reason why they couldn't show better attention to classic Morrowind attire when they have done so in the past and will do so in the future.

Snowstrider · February 2016

I really love the morrowind art design and concept art. I think oblivion was a bit dull but skyrim better than oblivion art wise. Lets hope zos does something unique clothing and armor with alot of layers instead of stuff qe have. I mean old games can do better so Cmon

I also love the concept art for oblivion making the imperials more unique

Just noticed its you Ladynerevar nice to see yiu here.

Abeille · February 2016

I see your point and I agree with it.

But I can see a lot of Almalexia's influence on the outfits, which makes them less generic-looking for me, which is why it bothers me a little less.

Mettaricana · February 2016

Then again its a few hundred years or change before es3

Darkeus · February 2016

i cant understand why they made the story in this time line and didnt continue story after skyrim and morrowind... eso after those solo games and not in between...

Daraugh · February 2016

@LadyNerevar if the one they offered looked like the sketch you made, I'd buy it in an instant. As it is, I'm pretty meh on the costumes after seeing how awkward the Breton and Nord hero costumes turned out. While styles do go in and out for short lived races, Elven culture doesn't seem to have much room for unnecessary change. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't know much about Dunmer culture specifically, I might be generalizing too much.

Divinius · February 2016

Mettaricana wrote: »

Then again its a few hundred years or change before es3

This.

"TES-3: Morrowind" takes place almost 750 years after the events in ESO. Clothing and armor styles have probably changed a bit in all that time.

This was one of the main reasons they set ESO so far in the past compared to other TES games. It gave them a LOT of leeway in their designs of pretty much everything.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar · February 2016

Yea I wont buy costumes but if they make a strong lore based one for darkelfs that are similar to something cool in morrowind then I MAY ACTUALLY buy it.

Browiseth · February 2016

I think ZoS's designs look nicer.

>raises flameshield

Elebeth · February 2016

@LadyNerevar

To be honest I never liked those robes in Morrowind. I only used them as a necessary evil to hide the ugly mismatched cacophony of colors which my BiS items created

Also, most of those robes didn't scream "Dunmer" to me; they just associate with Morrowind (the game).
(not counting Temple robes and Morag Tong robes)

However, that sketch you did does look impressive and speaks "Dunmer" (expertly observed by @Faulgor ). I'd very much like to have it in-game.
I have to agree with @Divinius that fashion changes, but I still prefer your sketch over the design of ZOS; maybe they'll add cultural "low-fashion" clothing later on... fingers crossed.

P.S. some of your links portray Dunmer armor (particularly chitin and bonemold) and you might be interested to hear that (according to data-mining and previous sneak-peaks) those styles are coming.

Morag.png?psid=1

altemriel · February 2016

Elebeth wrote: »

@LadyNerevar

To be honest I never liked those robes in Morrowind. I only used them as a necessary evil to hide the ugly mismatched cacophony of colors which my BiS items created
Also, most of those robes didn't scream "Dunmer" to me; they just associate with Morrowind (the game).
(not counting Temple robes and Morag Tong robes)

However, that sketch you did does look impressive and speaks "Dunmer" (expertly observed by @Faulgor ). I'd very much like to have it in-game.
I have to agree with @Divinius that fashion changes, but I still prefer your sketch over the design of ZOS; maybe they'll add cultural "low-fashion" clothing later on... fingers crossed.

P.S. some of your links portray Dunmer armor (particularly chitin and bonemold) and you might be interested to hear that (according to data-mining and previous sneak-peaks) those styles are coming.

oh that looks pretty cool. do you pls have any more source for that datamining of that armor motif?

Faulgor · February 2016

altemriel wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

@LadyNerevar

To be honest I never liked those robes in Morrowind. I only used them as a necessary evil to hide the ugly mismatched cacophony of colors which my BiS items created
Also, most of those robes didn't scream "Dunmer" to me; they just associate with Morrowind (the game).
(not counting Temple robes and Morag Tong robes)

However, that sketch you did does look impressive and speaks "Dunmer" (expertly observed by @Faulgor ). I'd very much like to have it in-game.
I have to agree with @Divinius that fashion changes, but I still prefer your sketch over the design of ZOS; maybe they'll add cultural "low-fashion" clothing later on... fingers crossed.

P.S. some of your links portray Dunmer armor (particularly chitin and bonemold) and you might be interested to hear that (according to data-mining and previous sneak-peaks) those styles are coming.

oh that looks pretty cool. do you pls have any more source for that datamining of that armor motif?

The Morag Tong style was datamined with the recent Thieves Guild update on PTS. It will come to the Crown Store sooner or later, and I suspect it will be added to the game with the Dark Brotherhood *fingers crossed*.

Elebeth · February 2016

altemriel wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

@LadyNerevar

To be honest I never liked those robes in Morrowind. I only used them as a necessary evil to hide the ugly mismatched cacophony of colors which my BiS items created
Also, most of those robes didn't scream "Dunmer" to me; they just associate with Morrowind (the game).
(not counting Temple robes and Morag Tong robes)

However, that sketch you did does look impressive and speaks "Dunmer" (expertly observed by @Faulgor ). I'd very much like to have it in-game.
I have to agree with @Divinius that fashion changes, but I still prefer your sketch over the design of ZOS; maybe they'll add cultural "low-fashion" clothing later on... fingers crossed.

P.S. some of your links portray Dunmer armor (particularly chitin and bonemold) and you might be interested to hear that (according to data-mining and previous sneak-peaks) those styles are coming.

oh that looks pretty cool. do you pls have any more source for that datamining of that armor motif?

The Future of ESO - QuakeCon 2014

There was one more video (maybe it's included in the link above; didn't check) that alluded that this particular armor will come as a part of a Dark Brotherhood DLC.

LadyNerevar · February 2016

Mettaricana wrote: »

Then again its a few hundred years or change before es3

This is a good point in general, but not one that ZOS has actually followed through on. There are numerous examples of them foregoing what is "historically acurate" for the sake of recognition. Just look at all the books and settlements that aren't supposed to exist until much later, the complicated retconing to make Cyrodiil match TESIV rather than lore, the fact that Riften has the same layput as it does in TESV despite burning to the ground, or even the introduction of the Dragonborn costume. None of those were added because ESO takes place in the past and we needs to reflect a time change, they were added to give players a familiar environment and to encourage them to drop cash.

The Chitin suit data mined above is actually a perfect example of what I'm asking for. They took an older design, fiddled with it to make it fit their own visuals and armor system, and the result is both faithful to the series and just plain cool looking.

Recremen · February 2016

They seem to be trying to divorce themselves from some of the more peculiar bits of lore and aesthetics, which is a shame, since it's sooooo neat and interesting. New stuff is good, and i really love some of the new directions, but some of the old stuff is nice too!

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Love your name OP. Love Morrowind and I love your drawing.

Great post. Here's to hoping the manager in charge of the cash shop reads the forums and suggestions.

bedlom · February 2016

I don't think our sense of style is the same as it was hundreds of years ago though, ESO is supposed to seem primitive.

sir_buttersworth · February 2016

Mettaricana wrote: »

Then again its a few hundred years or change before es3

Yeah, just think about how our fashion has changed over the last 700 years. The Dunmer's fashion may have changed just as much.

Jura23 · February 2016

Funny. Those Dunmer female costumes are probably my favourite from that first link.

Pluto · February 2016

Great post, LadyNerevar. I couldn't agree more.

Those data-mined chitin armors look pretty good though.

Elsonso · February 2016

What is more important than TES3 being hundreds of years later is that the Morrowind game let us see a very narrow part of the province, most of which was frontier. We did not really see what Morrowind was wearing in that game. ESO has shown us more of Morrowind than the TES3 game did. At this point, ZOS is the studio defining what Morrowind looks like, not Bethesda and not TES3.

Edit.. oops posted instead of saved....

If all someone saw of the US was rural Montana, the clothes people wear in the rest of the country would seem wrong.

Lysette · February 2016

I have just (today) deleted my dunmer character because I got really tired of this all grey look in ESO. Dunmer have greyish skin, ok, but that does not mean they would have to wear all greyish stuff. And they did not in other TES games, but quite colorful designs, because they go well with an all-greyish skin.

Well, there was as well another reason for my decision - I could no longer live without an Argonian and had no free slot.

Volkodav · February 2016

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i love this thread, your post, and everything you said.

i love morrowind, is there a way to bring morrowind into eso?

We can only dream.They said not likely.

Faulgor wrote: »

Ha, great to see you here, and posting on an issue I can get behind 100%.

While I'm still curious what the "male" (as costumes aren't gender-specific, this doesn't really matter) Dunmer costumes will look like, I agree that the female ones look rather disappointing. While the last one features the iconic prominent shoulder pads, they don't mesh well with the rest of the costume or capture the rugged insect-like look of the Morrowind designs. And I'm a bit confused why they have gone for corsets when Dunmer clothes have always been very loose-fitting.

Your sketch features some elements which I think are worth highlighting:
- Scarf / shawl (which for other costumes could be even more elaborate and pompous)
- Brown, earthen colours
- Triangular patterns on apron and scarf

Further costumes could feature elements such as:
- The aforementioned shoulder pads
- Insectoid/shell-like ornamentation, belts, rudimentary armor pieces
- Wide, loose-fitting robes, shawls, scarfs, aprons
- Elaborate necklaces and brooches

I also wouldn't mind costumes with specific headgear, of which Dunmer have a large variety (gondolier hats, Telvanni cephalopod helmets, etc).

It is however worth noting that ESO has done a great job with the Ashlander costumes, as well as the upcoming Morag Tong crafting motif. So there's no reason why they couldn't show better attention to classic Morrowind attire when they have done so in the past and will do so in the future.

The day they bring any of the armor,clothing,or weapons into ESO from Morrowind,I'll faint. I loved all the gear in t hat game.Which was why I got into ESO,they made it seem like they were bringing the world of Morrowind into ESO.At least that was what they inferred.

Faulgor · February 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i love this thread, your post, and everything you said.

i love morrowind, is there a way to bring morrowind into eso?

We can only dream.They said not likely.

Faulgor wrote: »

Ha, great to see you here, and posting on an issue I can get behind 100%.

While I'm still curious what the "male" (as costumes aren't gender-specific, this doesn't really matter) Dunmer costumes will look like, I agree that the female ones look rather disappointing. While the last one features the iconic prominent shoulder pads, they don't mesh well with the rest of the costume or capture the rugged insect-like look of the Morrowind designs. And I'm a bit confused why they have gone for corsets when Dunmer clothes have always been very loose-fitting.

Your sketch features some elements which I think are worth highlighting:
- Scarf / shawl (which for other costumes could be even more elaborate and pompous)
- Brown, earthen colours
- Triangular patterns on apron and scarf

Further costumes could feature elements such as:
- The aforementioned shoulder pads
- Insectoid/shell-like ornamentation, belts, rudimentary armor pieces
- Wide, loose-fitting robes, shawls, scarfs, aprons
- Elaborate necklaces and brooches

I also wouldn't mind costumes with specific headgear, of which Dunmer have a large variety (gondolier hats, Telvanni cephalopod helmets, etc).

It is however worth noting that ESO has done a great job with the Ashlander costumes, as well as the upcoming Morag Tong crafting motif. So there's no reason why they couldn't show better attention to classic Morrowind attire when they have done so in the past and will do so in the future.

The day they bring any of the armor,clothing,or weapons into ESO from Morrowind,I'll faint. I loved all the gear in t hat game.Which was why I got into ESO,they made it seem like they were bringing the world of Morrowind into ESO.At least that was what they inferred.

Well, Matt Firor has gone on record saying Morrowind was his favourite TES game, and he'd really like to have some kind of insect mount ... so there's definitely hope for more quirky Dunmerness down the road.

Cloudless · February 2016

Don't mind me, just bumping this post before it gets lost among far less significant ones. It would be very nice if ZOS considered LadyNerevar's words on the topic.

Pensola · May 2016

I haven't played Morrowind before, so when all I knew about dark elves was that the women are known for being promiscious, I thought the lower and middle class outfits looked okay. The high class is cool with the colours, but it kind of shows a lot more skin than I'm comfortable with. Especially the lower part of the body reminds me of other games where women wear practically underpants in winter landscapes every day.

I've always appreciated ESO for being very sensible with clothes for women, either changing little or having it make sense for the culture of the motif, and it has never been as bad as other games where the armour for the man is covering him from head to toe becomes a battle bikini for the woman. With that, I don't mind when some costumes show cleavage or bellies, as there are enough balance that it doesn't bother me. With the high class one, it is kind of... weird. And uncomfortable.

I have noticed that costumes and armour change a sometimes a little from the concept art, so it is possible that they will do so here as well. I mostly hope they will fix the skirt, but I feel for you Morrowind fans.

BruhItsOver9000 · August 2016

Gondolier hats, we need gondolier hats.

Carbonised · August 2016

I agree, and coincidentially, I just wrote a long post about Vvardenfell being the next DLC (at least in my hopes and wishes).

New costumes and new motifs relating to this is a must, and Morrowind and the Dunmer is an extremely rich source for spectacular looks.

Bonemold, Chitin, Morag Tong, Ashlander, Ordinator, Telvanni - these are just some of the iconic looks of Morrowind and the Dunmer. I would really hope a lot of work is put into these, when they appear in the Vvardenfell DLC (again, my hopes and wishes.

SlayerSyrena · August 2016

I like your clothing design concept (especially the color scheme) and I also agree that we need more of the original Morrowind look in ESO. Even the Architecture is too plain, imo, in both Stonefalls and Deshaan (as they all have the same look to them).

(One quibble on your concept ... Your Dunmer has grown extra fingers on her right hand.)