Rofl at the Vicious Death Set..

Brrrofski · February 2016

What I get so far from who this patch is the every magica build will be using this set and det.

Why on earth wouldn't you?

Jump in a group with det on, Ult and focus on one guy. The damage from det and your Ult (if it's aoe) will get people low enough that when one guy dies it will be enough of an explosion to kill others. Magica NB with bats and sap on top. Too easy.

Even if aoe caps apply to this, that's per explosion. The scenario above could easilly cause 3.

It's not even like the 2,3 and 4 bonus is bad either. Why would this and det not be a part of any pvp magica build? Solo or group.

Kwivur · February 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

5 Death, 4 Magnus 3 will?
5 Kags 4 Death, 3 will?

2 kena, 5 Death, 5 Kags

I.... actually like this plan. You sir, are evil as hell.

2 kena 5 alchemist 5 death?

Also, I can't wait to turn my sorc into an overload bot, shoot a few zerglings from range and watch the joy!

I tested this set-up with a Breton sorc... It was so saucy. But I'm probably going with Skoria instead.

Zheg · February 2016

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Having come back to ESO for the first time in months a couple of days ago, I was pleasantly surprised to see 80ms ping in pve zones. However it turned into 150ms upon entering Cyrodiil (not great, but playable), and as soon as you come across a keep battle, 500ms+ slide show begins because there's a big blob of players stacked on top of one anotrher spamming AoEs.

It would seem this is the source of all the server performance woes so why not just force these blobs to change up their play style. Not to deter big group play, but FORCE them to change up how they approach combat by making this set instantly incinerate some of them. Make the damage 30k, 50k, whatever to guarantee the death of 2 other persons nearby. I can't see a simpler way of solving the server lag than this. Again, not advocating destroying large group play, but just force their hand so they change tactics to spread out more, and end the stacking AoE spam.

I'm pretty sure the amount of people that will stick around or even return to the game because the lag has gone will far outnumber those that will leave because they can't play stack on the crown anymore.

Because the assumption you made is wholly inaccurate. Those keep fights lag because of total bodies, not because of a large group. This is a blatantly false narrative that's parroted by people on the forums, and then repeated enough times so people think it's true. If you roll up to a keep the ping is almost identical if 45 players are all spread out in the keep or if they're all condensed in a relative area. Patches like this PROMOTE people to bring more numbers, particularly for keep assaults, and will result in even more lag; how people don't realize that is beyond me. They said they're adding in performance adjustments behind the scenes, so hopefully that helps as a counterweight to the intentional mess they're causing. Toss in a few forward camps, everyone having rank 10 rez capabilities, and you're going to see your ping go even higher. But yay! I can blow someone up! hooray!

But blobs are generally unkillable, whereas people spread out result in quicker deaths, so the performance degradation isn't as persistent. What you're suggesting is that a blob of 20 players stacked spamming AoEs is causing no more stress on the server than 20 people spread out utilising less AoEs. If thats the case, I guess we agree to disagree.

Small vs large group imbalances are mutually exclusive from lag. 'blobs' are the only means of stopping 60+ stacked players without needing to do the same yourself, though that doesn't fit the ball group = boogeyman narrative. The changes in this patch make keep assaults very difficult even if only modestly defended, which will translate to people bringing literal hordes in the next patch. People won't be dying quickly if every keep ends up being 60+ vs 60+ and the ping slows to a crawl and no one can get abilities off.

They ignored the inherent problems of the emp system funneling you to objectives, a lack of secondary objectives, etc., and just layered on more bad code and stupid changes.

GRxKnight · February 2016

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

Zheg · February 2016

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

GRxKnight · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Oh don't get me wrong i do make a difference in my groups that i run with...what with perfectly timed negates and streak proxy combos...I'm just enjoying the fact that potato groups who rely heavily on numbers to win will now have to think twice before they all stack in one tight spot...i can't wait for the rage tells to flow in when my groups of 6-8 wipe 24+ because of their mouthbreathing

EDIT: that happens now...i just can't wait for explosions to be added to the fun

WRX · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

Master_Kas · February 2016

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

I run in a raid with up to 24 people and I'm in love with this set

WTB plx

Ghostbane · February 2016

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

"Get the fat kids!"

Takllin · February 2016

Ghostbane wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

"Get the fat kids!"

Whatchu got against fat kids Ghost?!

Ghostbane · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

"Get the fat kids!"

Whatchu got against fat kids Ghost?!

They keep buying all the Waffles.

FENGRUSH · February 2016

This is why they didnt want to talk about removing AOE caps while making a thread about AOE caps. This was the solution along with prox det.

Better solution: not this set - no prox det. People actually playing their classes using their skills and their ults.

We only had 87% of the community on our side. I blame the other 13%.

Zheg · February 2016

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

GRxKnight · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

The thing is we don't believe that 1 person should be able to wipe an entire raid but we also feel that an entire raid shouldn't be rewarded for stacking close together...quite the opposite...if Zos felt that AOE's should have been nerfed long ago then using a bullseye scheme where you took max damage from being really close to the caster and damage decreasing as you get further away...but that's neither here nor there at this point...

There's nothing wrong with this set so let's all stop complaining about it and move on...we don't need another shieldbreaker-like thread to be born just because a group decided to stack close to each other knowing that mechanics like this are now being implemented into the game to discourage the mentality of "oh let's just bring more numbers than they have and we'll win". That style of gameplay is completely skill-less

Takllin · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

I didn't see either of them saying that one person should be able to take on a 24 man group, your putting words in their mouths.

Good display of ad hominem though.

Zheg · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

I didn't see either of them saying that one person should be able to take on a 24 man group, your putting words in their mouths.

Good display of ad hominem though.

The implication is pretty obvious, that one player should be able to contest 24 coordinated players and get kills (which can already be accomplished...) how else would you interpret wrx's "one player won't make a difference" in the context of celebrating a set that potentially allows you to rambo? Not ad hominem if you're attacking their position at the same time fyi, but nice of you to try and point that out and ignore the better example in rex's previous post. Sometimes people actually know what big words mean.

Sorry if counter arguments are ruining the echo chamber. Not one person has contested the very likely scenario of changes like this (and limited to only this set) resulting in people just bringing more numbers to fights, they're just giddy with being able to do the camo hunter equivalent for aoe with little effort or risk, and tossing out the usual ball group innuendos. Do you honestly think groups aren't going to just stack even harder when keep assaults can no longer be accomplished with a single raid and they wipe after a few tries? Hopefully I'll be in CU beta when the 60+ vs 60+ meta for keep fights that so many on here helped bring about actually arrives. You will all have thoroughly earned it.

WRX · February 2016

Haha removed from reality? Ill just let that one slide.

And where did I say I want to fight 24 people at once? I was referencing the idea that the rapids will mean groups can't stick together like we have seen in the past. Groups will be separated by design, allowing for solo players to more consistently get kills. This shouldn't of been needed explanation.

As for my comment, I said one player won't make a difference assuming there is no other organization around.

It seems like several other people understood what was being said, while IDK what you were actually reading, but clearly was not what I wrote.

PosternHouse · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

I didn't see either of them saying that one person should be able to take on a 24 man group, your putting words in their mouths.

Good display of ad hominem though.

Argumentum ad hominem is an attempt to discredit an argument by attacking the character or motive of the arguer in place of demonstrating the failures of their argument. Name calling or personal accusations are not ad hominem fallacies if they are not being used to attempt to discredit an argument. Ad hominem is not always fallacious either, particularly when it is used to question unsupported statements of fact. No fallacious ad hominem arguments were made, I am afraid.

Zheg · February 2016

WRX wrote: »

Haha removed from reality? Ill just let that one slide.

And where did I say I want to fight 24 people at once? I was referencing the idea that the rapids will mean groups can't stick together like we have seen in the past. Groups will be separated by design, allowing for solo players to more consistently get kills. This shouldn't of been needed explanation.

As for my comment, I said one player won't make a difference assuming there is no other organization around.

It seems like several other people understood what was being said, while IDK what you were actually reading, but clearly was not what I wrote.

Meh, whatever. The message thus far has been 'siege is useless', 'small groups have no chance against larger groups', 'solo players won't make any difference if alone'. If I cared to actually record pvp nights, I could show plenty of examples refuting each. People like you and grxknight aren't lauding the set because it finally allows you to take on greater numbers (there were dozens of other changes that do this better in the patch notes), you're excited about the set because it's easy mode. If we can wipe pact militia with 60+ right now, you can wipe daniel who runs even less. It's not easy to wipe that many, but certainly viable. I see little in the patch that promotes skill, and much that promotes highest burst dps wins all.

We clearly won't agree, so I'll let you go ahead to keep dodging how the majority of the changes in this patch (including this set) won't result in more and more players stacking in the same keep for fights. Interesting how no one seems to disagree, but either go quiet or ignore that point when it's mentioned.

WRX · February 2016

PosternHouse wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

I didn't see either of them saying that one person should be able to take on a 24 man group, your putting words in their mouths.

Good display of ad hominem though.

Argumentum ad hominem is an attempt to discredit an argument by attacking the character or motive of the arguer in place of demonstrating the failures of their argument. Name calling or personal accusations are not ad hominem fallacies if they are not being used to attempt to discredit an argument. Ad hominem is not always fallacious either, particularly when it is used to question unsupported statements of fact. No fallacious ad hominem arguments were made, I am afraid.

Well, "moronic" and claiming someone to be "removed from reality" seems to be attacking a persons character in the attempt to discredit.

Personally I don't care, but it appears to be very similar to me. Regardless, I don't believe he actually read what I wrote lol

PosternHouse · February 2016

Well, he's not saying you're wrong because you're a moron or removed from reality. He claimed you were those things for other reasons. Perhaps those bear further elaboration, but an ad hom fallacy it was not. Now, I think everyone here's an amateur to argumentation and everything ... but this is an internet forum post lol. It's just when people start throwing around logical buzz words that I decide to butt in

.

Zheg · February 2016

WRX wrote: »

PosternHouse wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

I didn't see either of them saying that one person should be able to take on a 24 man group, your putting words in their mouths.

Good display of ad hominem though.

Argumentum ad hominem is an attempt to discredit an argument by attacking the character or motive of the arguer in place of demonstrating the failures of their argument. Name calling or personal accusations are not ad hominem fallacies if they are not being used to attempt to discredit an argument. Ad hominem is not always fallacious either, particularly when it is used to question unsupported statements of fact. No fallacious ad hominem arguments were made, I am afraid.

Well, "moronic" and claiming someone to be "removed from reality" seems to be attacking a persons character in the attempt to discredit.

Personally I don't care, but it appears to be very similar to me. Regardless, I don't believe he actually read what I wrote lol

Do you disagree that arguing 4 players should be able to wipe a rage group is moronic? No? So your gripe, is what exactly?

You mention one player being useless against 24, and then follow with supporting a set that does easy mode aoe damage, one following logic would assume you think the set helps the one player not be useless by being able to kill some, most, or all of the 24, and that this is a good thing. While colorful, my response wasnt really ad hominem. Insinuating in your earlier post there are many 'you' (me) problems without actually contesting the argument that this helps result in more prolific zergs, that's ad hominem.

Care to duck the argument again? We're at what? 4 times now?

WRX · February 2016

@Zheg

IDGAF about the set honestly. Its gimmicky, small radius, and very likely to be nerfed. I am actually not even positive that is the set I will be running, especially solo. I recently said the set is just the icing, I don't feel its the reason you can take on larger groups. I already mentioned rapids as the biggest factor, would add the new proxy det scaling, and actually several others sets will be a lot more beneficial.

As for wiping CN and EP part, its not really even what I am discussing. But to indulge you, I will say its obviously possible to wipe them, or any group, with a significantly smaller group. Never said it wasn't. There is a big difference between solo and 4 man though. This is where 4-12 man groups will shine in this patch IMO.

As for stacking more and more people, that very well may happen. I'm not sure where you got the idea that anyone was trying to refute it. At the same time, it will be a more loose playstyle hopefully showcasing more individual skill and sustain. Sieges and defense will be a challenge. The defenders will be completely smothered in siege, the attackers will have to go through one of the breaches. Scroll keeps just got 10x more defensible, etc etc. Its hard to say for sure, but I am at least excited to see how these changes work.

WRX · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

PosternHouse wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Anyone notice that the majority of people who don't like this set run with groups that this set is designed to deal with? I personally can't wait for this patch to drop so i can start running in groups that aren't 24 people large and make an impact in fights....guess it's time to start thinking about breaking up the Daniel zerg eh @MountainHound

If you aren't making an impact in fights right now, that sounds like a you problem. This set by itself wouldn't be all that bad, it's just one piece of an onslaught of poor decisions that will end up encouraging people to bring even more numbers. But go ahead and keep believing this will magically solve more problems than it creates.

Lol, a solo player won't make a difference when fighting a 24 man group, assuming there is no other organization around.

There are many "you" problems around here, this is not one of them.

Vicious Death is just icing. The rapids change is the bread and butter. Solo players will be getting many more kills.

The fact that you think one player should have a chance of fighting 24 shows how removed from reality you are. Good players know how to pick their battles, whether solo, smallman, or large. If I'm solo and engage a group of 24, it's because I'm defending a keep and trying to buy seconds more for defenders to arrive. I don't have the delusion that I should be able to steamroll them. After I called raid late Monday night, about 4 of us wiped about 25 disorganized reds at bleaks, we were in ts but not even grouped. Do I think we should have wiped a full rage group like that? No. Arguing that you should is moronic.

Rapids change makes it easier for sorcs, harder for anyone relying on heals, cuz that makes sense, large group or no group.

I didn't see either of them saying that one person should be able to take on a 24 man group, your putting words in their mouths.

Good display of ad hominem though.

Argumentum ad hominem is an attempt to discredit an argument by attacking the character or motive of the arguer in place of demonstrating the failures of their argument. Name calling or personal accusations are not ad hominem fallacies if they are not being used to attempt to discredit an argument. Ad hominem is not always fallacious either, particularly when it is used to question unsupported statements of fact. No fallacious ad hominem arguments were made, I am afraid.

Well, "moronic" and claiming someone to be "removed from reality" seems to be attacking a persons character in the attempt to discredit.

Personally I don't care, but it appears to be very similar to me. Regardless, I don't believe he actually read what I wrote lol

Do you disagree that arguing 4 players should be able to wipe a rage group is moronic? No? So your gripe, is what exactly?

You mention one player being useless against 24, and then follow with supporting a set that does easy mode aoe damage, one following logic would assume you think the set helps the one player not be useless by being able to kill some, most, or all of the 24, and that this is a good thing. While colorful, my response wasnt really ad hominem. Insinuating in your earlier post there are many 'you' (me) problems without actually contesting the argument that this helps result in more prolific zergs, that's ad hominem.

Care to duck the argument again? We're at what? 4 times now?

Actually no, I don't think its moronic. If Rage left itself in a position to get wiped by 4 players, then we probably deserved to wipe. I don't think barrier and AoE caps should save us when such a mistake is made. You claim to be ready to move on to CU and others have mentioned BDO. BDO has, and CU likely will, have mechanics that is a larger deterrent to the style of play ESO currently has.

Come early March, ESO will likely join those games in the sense of play style. If you stack, you'll die to a much smaller group. However, take 24 good players, playing loose and bombing properly, everything will be just dandy. By the "you" comment, I was simply referring to your post above. Nothing more, could of been replaced with personal.

As for the prolific zergs, bring em on. They will be walking into a straight meat grinder if they try the same stuff they do today. I feel this patch overall brings more priority to smaller skilled gameplay, and less smashing of balls. You seem to feel different, won't know until its out or a good pts night.

Zheg · February 2016

WRX wrote: »

Actually no, I don't think its moronic. If Rage left itself in a position to get wiped by 4 players, then we probably deserved to wipe. I don't think barrier and AoE caps should save us when such a mistake is made. You claim to be ready to move on to CU and others have mentioned BDO. BDO has, and CU likely will, have mechanics that is a larger deterrent to the style of play ESO currently has.

Come early March, ESO will likely join those games in the sense of play style. If you stack, you'll die to a much smaller group. However, take 24 good players, playing loose and bombing properly, everything will be just dandy. By the "you" comment, I was simply referring to your post above. Nothing more, could of been replaced with personal.

As for the prolific zergs, bring em on. They will be walking into a straight meat grinder if they try the same stuff they do today. I feel this patch overall brings more priority to smaller skilled gameplay, and less smashing of balls. You seem to feel different, won't know until its out or a good pts night.

Except, those are completely different games with completely different combat systems. Also, if you keep assuming that the reason people are disagreeing with you and voicing concerns over the patch is because they only ever want to 'stack' (if one were to read between the lines) and don't know how to or want to play any way else, you're intentionally missing the many points being raised. The reason why people stack is because the combat system is broken and a single skill like prox det from a single person can do massive damage to multiple people, particularly when coupled with an aoe ultimate. Every single group mitigation option in the game requires close proximity, as do heals. With 'smart' heals that can easily target the random pug next to your group instead of a critically low hp group member getting focused, and with most heals also requiring close proximity, condensing is the only way to combat low TTK. I've yet to see an mmo that wants to penalize you as strongly as ESO seems to for being within 5m of an ally during mass pvp. When the other elements of the combat system aren't given counterweights (and in fact, are buffed the OTHER way) while the mitigation and healing capabilities are reduced, it's a recipe for disaster. Couple that with very unresponsive CC breaks, permaroots, and extremely delayed balance patches - it's just plain dumb. But, please, go ahead and keep insinuating I know no other way of pvping besides being in a large ESO group, clearly someone that spent 2 years doing spvp in gw2 and over half his time in ESO in groups < 6 will be lost in a game like CU and every time he disagrees with you it's because he's a zergling baddie (who, by the way, has run in a large group for less time than you, go figure). So yeah, don't worry, I'm ready for CU, thanks though.

You seem to think this patch is going to end up being skilled players scattered and 1vXing, instead of a clustereff of allies sitting in a keep defending against an even larger clustereff of enemies trying assault the keep while half your raid crashes because ping hasn't dropped below 800 for 20 minutes straight. You say bring the prolific zergs on, and yet, something tells me when 70 roll up to ash and your ping goes to 999+ before a single ability is even fired, you're going to be spitting venom. Shall I whisper you "I told you so" then? I'm sure that conversation will go well.

MaximillianDiE · February 2016

DAOC had AOE stun and mez that lasted for upwards of a minute. That and stacked aoes were a major deterrant to stacking. WAR had collision detection and aoe pulls (Magus/Engie) and nasty AOE dps which were also deterrants to stacking. Those are just two examples of mmos which made it far from sensible to ball up. In fact in all of the pvp focussed mmos I've played over the years (UO, Shadowbane, DAOC, EQ2, Rift, Archage, Darkfall, GW2 etc) this is the only mmos I've played that via its aoe cap and other mechanisms actively encourages players to all stand on the crown in a tight ball like this.

GRxKnight · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Actually no, I don't think its moronic. If Rage left itself in a position to get wiped by 4 players, then we probably deserved to wipe. I don't think barrier and AoE caps should save us when such a mistake is made. You claim to be ready to move on to CU and others have mentioned BDO. BDO has, and CU likely will, have mechanics that is a larger deterrent to the style of play ESO currently has.

Come early March, ESO will likely join those games in the sense of play style. If you stack, you'll die to a much smaller group. However, take 24 good players, playing loose and bombing properly, everything will be just dandy. By the "you" comment, I was simply referring to your post above. Nothing more, could of been replaced with personal.

As for the prolific zergs, bring em on. They will be walking into a straight meat grinder if they try the same stuff they do today. I feel this patch overall brings more priority to smaller skilled gameplay, and less smashing of balls. You seem to feel different, won't know until its out or a good pts night.

Except, those are completely different games with completely different combat systems. Also, if you keep assuming that the reason people are disagreeing with you and voicing concerns over the patch is because they only ever want to 'stack' (if one were to read between the lines) and don't know how to or want to play any way else, you're intentionally missing the many points being raised. The reason why people stack is because the combat system is broken and a single skill like prox det from a single person can do massive damage to multiple people, particularly when coupled with an aoe ultimate. Every single group mitigation option in the game requires close proximity, as do heals. With 'smart' heals that can easily target the random pug next to your group instead of a critically low hp group member getting focused, and with most heals also requiring close proximity, condensing is the only way to combat low TTK. I've yet to see an mmo that wants to penalize you as strongly as ESO seems to for being within 5m of an ally during mass pvp. When the other elements of the combat system aren't given counterweights (and in fact, are buffed the OTHER way) while the mitigation and healing capabilities are reduced, it's a recipe for disaster. Couple that with very unresponsive CC breaks, permaroots, and extremely delayed balance patches - it's just plain dumb. But, please, go ahead and keep insinuating I know no other way of pvping besides being in a large ESO group, clearly someone that spent 2 years doing spvp in gw2 and over half his time in ESO in groups < 6 will be lost in a game like CU and every time he disagrees with you it's because he's a zergling baddie (who, by the way, has run in a large group for less time than you, go figure). So yeah, don't worry, I'm ready for CU, thanks though.

You seem to think this patch is going to end up being skilled players scattered and 1vXing, instead of a clustereff of allies sitting in a keep defending against an even larger clustereff of enemies trying assault the keep while half your raid crashes because ping hasn't dropped below 800 for 20 minutes straight. You say bring the prolific zergs on, and yet, something tells me when 70 roll up to ash and your ping goes to 999+ before a single ability is even fired, you're going to be spitting venom. Shall I whisper you "I told you so" then? I'm sure that conversation will go well.

Yes actually that is the case. People stack multiple raids, while somewhat due to broken AoE cap mechanics, from what I've seen it's a L2P issue with these groups as they're terrible away from the rest of the other raids. I can't tell you how many times that my groups have wiped another group and the next thing you know, they're back out there running alongside their second and third raids as the solution. While it can be masked as "oh they're just utilizing the AoE cap system", when they do this time and time again it becomes apparent that it's due in part to the group not good enough to fight without stacking multiples in one spot.

Is this set going to get used by larger groups to fight other larger groups (see prox det when it was introduced)? Absolutely it will and it should. The stats on it are amazing when you combine it with Julianos and the 5th piece is an added bonus when you get the KB on someone. It's not hard to spread 5m away from your group when a bomb group decides to open up. Also I think we have been jumping the gun with the whole "DEATH TO ZERGS!!" battle cries that have been going on in this thread. Someone still needs to actually die from someone wearing this set to proc, allowing the other members in your group and you yourself the ability to chain it off with other abilities after the set procs. And last I checked AoE caps are still in place, therefore damage mitigation is still ever present in our game. Yes Cyrodiil will be a shooting star show and that in itself will be a good way to proc it off in a group even if your main target blocks (show of hands for people who have been CC'd by meteor when not being the original target).

The point I'm trying to make here is that large groups right now are going to have a problem adjusting to the new meta that will come out with this patch because of how they play now. They stack multiple people in one spot and don't seem to have any situational awareness because they don't need to. If they do that in early March (and for my Alliance Rank I hope they do), then they're going to become easy pickings for other groups that have adjusted and are more skilled than they are. This isn't a death blow to large groups or large group play, but rather an enabler for smaller groups to make more of an impact in fights that right now are just improbable for them to deal with.

Poxheart · February 2016

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

DAOC had AOE stun and mez that lasted for upwards of a minute. That and stacked aoes were a major deterrant to stacking. WAR had collision detection and aoe pulls (Magus/Engie) and nasty AOE dps which were also deterrants to stacking. Those are just two examples of mmos which made it far from sensible to ball up. In fact main all of the pvp focussed mmos I've played over the years (UO, Shadowbane, DAOC, EQ2, Rift, Archage, Darkfall, GW2 etc) this is the only mmos I've played that via its aoe cap and other mechanisms actively encourages players to all stand on the crown in a tight ball like this.

Unless something has changed with the game, GW2 is where stacking began because it also has (had?) AOE caps. If you google you can probably find videos of the stacking (especially because of the Mesmer portal).

On the topic of this armor set, the people who think this is somehow going to improve the chances of small groups against large groups haven't considered that the large groups will probably run this set too, which will punish the small groups (but not as much as the server will be punished if this set goes live).

Soulac · February 2016

Poxheart wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

DAOC had AOE stun and mez that lasted for upwards of a minute. That and stacked aoes were a major deterrant to stacking. WAR had collision detection and aoe pulls (Magus/Engie) and nasty AOE dps which were also deterrants to stacking. Those are just two examples of mmos which made it far from sensible to ball up. In fact main all of the pvp focussed mmos I've played over the years (UO, Shadowbane, DAOC, EQ2, Rift, Archage, Darkfall, GW2 etc) this is the only mmos I've played that via its aoe cap and other mechanisms actively encourages players to all stand on the crown in a tight ball like this.

Unless something has changed with the game, GW2 is where stacking began because it also has (had?) AOE caps. If you google you can probably find videos of the stacking (especially because of the Mesmer portal).

On the topic of this armor set, the people who think this is somehow going to improve the chances of small groups against large groups haven't considered that the large groups will probably run this set too, which will punish the small groups (but not as much as the server will be punished if this set goes live).

Only if players of the small group die.

Elong · February 2016

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

DAOC had AOE stun and mez that lasted for upwards of a minute. That and stacked aoes were a major deterrant to stacking. WAR had collision detection and aoe pulls (Magus/Engie) and nasty AOE dps which were also deterrants to stacking. Those are just two examples of mmos which made it far from sensible to ball up. In fact in all of the pvp focussed mmos I've played over the years (UO, Shadowbane, DAOC, EQ2, Rift, Archage, Darkfall, GW2 etc) this is the only mmos I've played that via its aoe cap and other mechanisms actively encourages players to all stand on the crown in a tight ball like this.

Aion was all about the zerg....100s of people too.