Why NB's actually make the WORST stamina builds in PvP

bowmanz607 · July 2015

R0M2K wrote: »

2.1=Sorcs OP, Dead Stamina NB

1- 50% shields but 50% & 50% all dmg nerf.

This means that the ttk will be higher while sorcs keep the same efective ratio on their shields, longer time to regenerate magica & recast shields when necesary. NB burst dead, a suposed key feature of the class.

2- Nirhoned nerf.

This means that sorcs will continue to have high spell res due to their light armor tree pasives, heavy armor will continue to have high spell&phys resistance and the most affected will be medium armor users due to no pasive in the medium armor tree that increases spell and/or phys res, mediocre resistance to both spells & phys attacks = paper to both sorcs and phys attacks and 0 burst to compensate because point 1.

3- Dodge roll nerf.

Instead of nerfing the gear that makes posible for a few players to perma-dodge, the only thing they can do is annoy btw, you nerf the key feature of medium armor.

Dodging allows you to move how far? 5 meters? How far does Bolt scape allow sorcs to move?
Dodge roll is a skill? NO. Bolt scape IS.
Dodge roll stuns or damage oponent? Bolt scape does.
Is perma-roll avaliable to all classes? Yes. And bolt scape? No.

So you are nerfing a mechanic extremely tied to a type of armor, sorcs have shields, stamina NB had dodge, but you are comparing a mitigation mechanic with a all-in-one skill that is Bolt scape.

4- Shield stacking.

So Sorcs can stack Shields but can NB stack Dodge chane? NO, Evasion (Medium armor) does not stack with Blur (NB) nor with Specter set (8-trait crafted set)... Shield stacking is ok but dodge stacking not.

5- Shealth medium armor bonus? Detect potion / Mage light.

6- Regenerate magica while runing / moving shealthed ? No problem.
Regenerate Stamina while runing / moving shealthed AND NOW blocking? No Way.

And on and on and on... just because a bunch of QQ noob sorcs get owned like they should, instead of watching some mainstream youtube tutorials or simply LTP... just like making Vigor rank 5, removing any pride left in earning you ranks.

Know you gona destroy Medium armor in PvP if you push live those changes, and ill cancel my sub, not that it may matter to you ZoS to have 1 less subscriber, but hey, ill feel much better not suporting the joke medium armor NB is gonna be.

The game was pretty balanced, 2.1 is gonna be a total mess... Oh and the "dont worry cos we adding shield penetration gear" its crap, totally crap to have to gear against shields and a terribaaad solution, more of a "patch" than a real balance.

Haha lol, you can even find "things" complaining about NB cloack being fixed AFTER amost 2 years to work as it should.... Wtf??!!! how many times can a Stamina NB cloack before runing out of magica???!!!.

Here, for you fanboys, enjoy your game:

Varicite wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

OP Sounds like you are just a unskilled player and shouldn't run stam as nb. Go back to sorc with shield spam or play easy mode perma block. Playing as stam nb we know the risks, we understand them and compensate. It's not a build where you expect to survive 100% like when the reds bug out mist form or high ranks spams stacks of vigor. With then next update those cheese builds that perma block, shield stack, dodge for days, bolt or ones that rely on enough stam for that 1 break out and double dodge roll will be no more. The fixing of the broken cloak mechanic will place even a bad like yourself at a huge advantage. Roll a vamp instead of ww if you still need to make it even easier for yourself.

Again, this post is from 1.5.

Vigor did not even exist. People had 3k health pools.

You guys... *just shakes head*

But above quotation reinvigorated the debate calling out 2.1 specifically.

Varicite · July 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

R0M2K wrote: »

2.1=Sorcs OP, Dead Stamina NB

1- 50% shields but 50% & 50% all dmg nerf.

This means that the ttk will be higher while sorcs keep the same efective ratio on their shields, longer time to regenerate magica & recast shields when necesary. NB burst dead, a suposed key feature of the class.

2- Nirhoned nerf.

This means that sorcs will continue to have high spell res due to their light armor tree pasives, heavy armor will continue to have high spell&phys resistance and the most affected will be medium armor users due to no pasive in the medium armor tree that increases spell and/or phys res, mediocre resistance to both spells & phys attacks = paper to both sorcs and phys attacks and 0 burst to compensate because point 1.

3- Dodge roll nerf.

Instead of nerfing the gear that makes posible for a few players to perma-dodge, the only thing they can do is annoy btw, you nerf the key feature of medium armor.

Dodging allows you to move how far? 5 meters? How far does Bolt scape allow sorcs to move?
Dodge roll is a skill? NO. Bolt scape IS.
Dodge roll stuns or damage oponent? Bolt scape does.
Is perma-roll avaliable to all classes? Yes. And bolt scape? No.

So you are nerfing a mechanic extremely tied to a type of armor, sorcs have shields, stamina NB had dodge, but you are comparing a mitigation mechanic with a all-in-one skill that is Bolt scape.

4- Shield stacking.

So Sorcs can stack Shields but can NB stack Dodge chane? NO, Evasion (Medium armor) does not stack with Blur (NB) nor with Specter set (8-trait crafted set)... Shield stacking is ok but dodge stacking not.

5- Shealth medium armor bonus? Detect potion / Mage light.

6- Regenerate magica while runing / moving shealthed ? No problem.
Regenerate Stamina while runing / moving shealthed AND NOW blocking? No Way.

And on and on and on... just because a bunch of QQ noob sorcs get owned like they should, instead of watching some mainstream youtube tutorials or simply LTP... just like making Vigor rank 5, removing any pride left in earning you ranks.

Know you gona destroy Medium armor in PvP if you push live those changes, and ill cancel my sub, not that it may matter to you ZoS to have 1 less subscriber, but hey, ill feel much better not suporting the joke medium armor NB is gonna be.

The game was pretty balanced, 2.1 is gonna be a total mess... Oh and the "dont worry cos we adding shield penetration gear" its crap, totally crap to have to gear against shields and a terribaaad solution, more of a "patch" than a real balance.

Haha lol, you can even find "things" complaining about NB cloack being fixed AFTER amost 2 years to work as it should.... Wtf??!!! how many times can a Stamina NB cloack before runing out of magica???!!!.

Here, for you fanboys, enjoy your game:

Varicite wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

OP Sounds like you are just a unskilled player and shouldn't run stam as nb. Go back to sorc with shield spam or play easy mode perma block. Playing as stam nb we know the risks, we understand them and compensate. It's not a build where you expect to survive 100% like when the reds bug out mist form or high ranks spams stacks of vigor. With then next update those cheese builds that perma block, shield stack, dodge for days, bolt or ones that rely on enough stam for that 1 break out and double dodge roll will be no more. The fixing of the broken cloak mechanic will place even a bad like yourself at a huge advantage. Roll a vamp instead of ww if you still need to make it even easier for yourself.

Again, this post is from 1.5.

Vigor did not even exist. People had 3k health pools.

You guys... *just shakes head*

But above quotation reinvigorated the debate calling out 2.1 specifically.

Should just make a new thread that doesn't have 3 pages of completely outdated info.

I stand by what I said.

This thread should be locked.

@ZOS_MariaAliprando @ZOS_JasonLeavey or somebody should probably just go ahead and lock this thread entirely, as it's not doing anything but serving to misinform and confuse the community as to its intent.

The game back then was an entirely different game than the community is playing now, and the majority of those posting in the thread recently have no idea what ESO was like when the OP posted this.

bowmanz607 · July 2015

Why open a new thread with the same debate? In fact it gives insight to what people have had issues with over a longer time period. If you look at some of the issues the op had with this problem it is similar tk issues people have now. If anything it gives us a working history of what the player base has felt and allows us to see what has or has not changed and how those changes and lack of changes have impacted the game. Additionally, allows players to see compare and contrast each situation to figure out what else needs tk be incorporated or modified to to feal with issues that seem largely analogous to one another

Varicite · July 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Some of the best PvP NBs Ive ran into ran Stamina Builds.

Preyfar wrote: »

Any nightblade playing PVP with a build reliant on crit is not going to have a great time.

Preyfar wrote: »

skills like Rally and Purge, all can go well to help players make it when they're having a rough time.

silky_soft wrote: »

OP Sounds like you are just a unskilled player and shouldn't run stam as nb.

silky_soft wrote: »

With then next update those cheese builds that perma block, shield stack, dodge for days, bolt or ones that rely on enough stam for that 1 break out and double dodge roll will be no more.

RyoAshisogi wrote: »

My stamina Nightblade does fine I can self heal with Rally every 4 seconds it full restores my health bar and every out of 4 second cast it heals a good portion of it but even then you also have fear abilities that keep them from attacking you, you have soul tether and a few other abilities for pvp

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Don't disagree with the op cos I've never played a NB, let alone a stam NB. But don't stam NBs just pick up rally and vigor for the heal, and dodge-roll into cloak to compensate for not having a shield?

Lynx7386 wrote: »

My nightblade has been a beast since I unlocked bone armor from the undaunted line. Can't wait to add vigor to the mix.

See, quotes like these which make up the vast majority of the recent posts just show exactly how out of touch players are w/ what the OP is describing from January.

Most of what they are talking about either didn't even exist or didn't exist in the form they are in today back then.

I could easily break down why they are simply wrong in the context of the OP:

1) Stamina builds had no sustain when the OP made his post due to stamina costs and lack of utility in a game where everybody was tanky and heal + shield based. Light armor had much more armor back then and could easily laugh off a stam build's onslaught while outhealing the damage and destroying them.

2) Crit ruled the day due to the old Ult generation mechanics which gave extra Ultimate based on crits, allowing high crit builds to spam Ultimates back to back.

3) Rally did not have a burst heal attached to it, and the healing done per tick was lower. Also, you could dodge your own Rally ticks and the weapon power buff applied only to 2 handed abilities.

4) Completely out of touch w/ what a stam NB used to be.

5) While this is talking about the future of ESO, the OP is talking about the distant past. They have no bearing on one another.

6) See #3, Rally didn't do this back then. Fear was a higher cost, effected less targets, and was generally not usable w/ the magicka pools available to a stamina build in those days. Regen was also MUCH lower and drinks were not viable to boost this rate.

7) Again, Rally was pretty meh and Vigor did not exist at all.

8) The Bone Armor this poster is talking about did not exist in the same form. It was much, much worse. Also, dodge roll was prohibitively expensive and used very sparingly back then, especially as a stamina build as you wouldn't have enough resource left to actually kill anything. Not that you would have been able to anyways through block + heal + shield + loltalonswhip.

9) Again, Vigor didn't exist and Bone Armor was just an armor buff, not a physical damage shield.

So no, I don't believe this thread is giving any new insight to what the game was like back then. If it did, the majority of posters wouldn't be posting these types of things in it.

Nobody is "comparing and contrasting" besides me, because I seem to be the only one who can differentiate what ESO was like back then and how many of the issues the OP has mentioned have been relieved since this post was made.

All this thread is doing currently is confusing issues and inviting players to flame an OP that they aren't even attempting to understand contextually. It should just be locked.

bowmanz607 · July 2015

first i would have to say i did extremely well in pvp with my DW/bow back in the day. no problems with dodge roll or lack of resources. also fear was a wonderful ability even before the buff. I used it constantly. moreover, i had a build where i had max weapon damage and close to max spell damage along with solid regen in both. this allowed me to be much more flexible in situations. now a hybrid dps is all but dead (pending a new build i just started). I also still find crit to be viable now. in fact crit was crap in pvp back in the day b/c impen trait was so OP and fully geared made ur hits damn near 0.

That said, i do concede that some people seem out of touch with the timing of the OP's discussion but it still does allow for meanigful comparison between then and now. For instance,

Heals and shields are extremely strong and allow other classes stam builds to tank damage with their magicka pool. Nightblades are forced to use resto staff and/or harness magicka for their shields/heals. Stamina nightblades can't use either of these skills effectively, making them the squishiest build of any class and the only build without access to an effective shield of any kind.

still relevant today.

Please, make blur into a shield or just add a decent shield to a guild or undaunted skill line that isn't dependent on wearing light armor for effectiveness. I love playing stamina, but for nightblades resto staff and magicka builds are necessary to compete in a shield/block/heal meta world if you want to actually stand up to a fight.

still asked for today.

between your post and my post we have been able to parse out what was worked on and addressed in the past. also, what players were asking for and discussing then still is being asked for and discussed today. this illustrates the evolving nature of the game along with what players have been wanting and asking for over time.

allmoney01 · February 2016

I use vigor, immovable brute, and bone wall with focused aim and venom arrow on my bow. Dual weild I run blade cloak, steel tornado, power extractio, ambush and killers blade. I also use barrier and soul tether. It works decent but I've noticed my magika NB is for sure more survivable. However! With morkuldin proc as well as engine guardian I have decent sustain and continuous damage on my Stam blade. I can't solo, and I only use my class skills for damage but it hasn't been that bad. My only complaint is getting concealed weapon spammed from cloak,and my 1vX is limited to 2 opponents max, but more and more I'm noticing them changing the game to lean more in group play, is why they keep leaning classes one way or the other. My Stam sorc is actually doing at ton better with this setup so I will be dropping the agility and endurance set to run full briar heart and morkuldin, And make my Stam blade a pve only and my crafter. Its sad but as you say the Stam blade is just not great in cyro unless 10 man grouped

Resipsa131 · February 2016

Zhoyzu wrote: »

7 piece evade is a strong solution. its a psuedo invis and a 21% dodge rating or higher and stacks with blur. that and cloak dodge roll is pretty strong

Its not an additive stack

RatedChaotic · February 2016

Wahee wrote: »

...they have no access to a class based shield or heal. They share the same damage potential as any other stamina build, but without the survivability options.

Stamina nightblades are by far the squishiest build possible. Self heals and shields are incredibly important for survivability and allow other classes to create stamina builds with high survivability due to a magicka bar dedicated solely to heals and shields while relying on stamina and weapon skills for damage. Nightblades do not have this option. A nightblade's only class defensive skills are cloak and blur. Blur is very underwhelming and cloak is well known to be buggy if not outright broken. Even if cloak worked 100% of the time it does not compare to shields that allow the player to soak damage while continuing to fight. The skills are apples and oranges and cloak is not a suitable replacement for the lack of a class shield or heal.

Almost all competitive magicka NB builds rely on resto staff for their shield and heals. Some also use harness magicka as well. Unfortunately, resto staff doesn't really work with stamina builds (especially with 1.6 changes), and harness magicka is relatively small (500) for a high cost, and benefits per piece of light armor worn. Again, doesn't really work with stamina builds.

A stamina nightblades only reliable heal is from 2H rally. The skill is great, but a small HoT and heal alone is not enough to survive or outlast incoming damage the same way other classes can with class skills.

I've seen some really effective templar stamina builds that heavily rely on blazing shield and breath of life. The same goes for DK's with frag shield, wings, and GDB. A stamina Sorc has access to hardened ward. The common link here is class based defensive skills that draw from the magicka pool.

Nightblade stamina builds can kill people sure, but they fold like wet newspaper under any pressure at all. No other stamina build is as squishy. As a nightblade player I'm not content to plink at the edges of a fight with a bow or run away every time i get focused. Other classes can play stam builds and stand up to a fight, even against the current magicka shield/block/heal meta. Nightblades can't.

TLDR: Heals and shields are extremely strong and allow other classes stam builds to tank damage with their magicka pool. Nightblades are forced to use resto staff and/or harness magicka for their shields/heals. Stamina nightblades can't use either of these skills effectively, making them the squishiest build of any class and the only build without access to an effective shield of any kind.

Please, make blur into a shield or just add a decent shield to a guild or undaunted skill line that isn't dependent on wearing light armor for effectiveness. I love playing stamina, but for nightblades resto staff and magicka builds are necessary to compete in a shield/block/heal meta world if you want to actually stand up to a fight.

P.S. - Sniping on the edge of a fight and ganking off horses is cool and all, but not what I would consider competitive PvP. Any other class with a stamina build can do the same, but with the added survivability to actually engage in toe-to-toe fight.

1. Wrong. They have access to more than just one. You need to read your skills more closely.
2. Why did you choose a NB then. NBs sneak the edges get a quick kill, hide, find another prey.

Its definately not your play style. You should focus on a DK or Templar. Cus your definately not playing a NB correctly.

Bromburak · February 2016

Title must be a joke, NBs have the best Stamina builds out there and you not rely on weapons in melee, only class with proper stamina morphs. You can sneak in, stun and kill your targets very fast, you don't need shields ...
Just understand your role as Assasin and you will be fine ...

Imo shields are a bad habit in ESO anyway, just don't play NB if you want Shields on top of your insane DPS output.
If you need to, Dodge or use your evade buff, that is good enough.

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

Leeching buff now?

Lenikus · February 2016

Here's the obvious:

Nightblades are the Rogue / Sneaky / Stabbey'ish gameplay Class.
Like a drunk driver; Hit and Run.. Come in, wreak havoc and vanish before anyone even write down the number.
They do not need "Class based Shields or Heals" they are not meant for those kinds of fights.

If you want to "Honourly and Knightly Duel" someone, roll a freakin' DK or templar, not an assassin.

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

Lenikus wrote: »

Here's the obvious:

Nightblades are the Rogue / Sneaky / Stabbey'ish gameplay Class.
Like a drunk driver; Hit and Run.. Come in, wreak havoc and vanish before anyone even write down the number.
They do not need "Class based Shields or Heals" they are not meant for those kinds of fights.

If you want to "Honourly and Knightly Duel" someone, roll a freakin' DK or templar, not an assassin.

I disagree, We have skills that help with that type of gameplay, It is just that they are so weak that they need to be reworked. Besides who said NB are the sneaky class? Last time the developers talked. We have the freedom and skill choices to make a build how we want.

That is another reason Magic Sorc need a nerf. They make all other builds look like trash.

Lenikus · February 2016

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

I disagree, We have skills that help with that type of gameplay, It is just that they are so weak that they need to be reworked. Besides who said NB are the sneaky class? Last time the developers talked. We have the freedom and skill choices to make a build how we want.

That is another reason Magic Sorc need a nerf. They make all other builds look like trash.

Talking about the stamina nightblade here. The magicka Nightblade does have potentially awesome survivability, AND the sneaky / wreak havoc skills. But i'm not talking about what you "can" do. But to what is competitive and optimal.

You want to heal using a DK ? You can do that. But you'll have to work way harder than a Templar to achieve the same results. You want to tank using a 2h/bow build ? You can do that, But you'll have to work way harder than a DK with sword and board.

RatedChaotic · February 2016

You have a skill thats giving you 60% health when you kill a target and that NBs can kill really fast. Now you want a class heal. LMAO

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

Lenikus wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

I disagree, We have skills that help with that type of gameplay, It is just that they are so weak that they need to be reworked. Besides who said NB are the sneaky class? Last time the developers talked. We have the freedom and skill choices to make a build how we want.

That is another reason Magic Sorc need a nerf. They make all other builds look like trash.

Talking about the stamina nightblade here. The magicka Nightblade does have potentially awesome survivability, AND the sneaky / wreak havoc skills. But i'm not talking about what you "can" do. But to what is competitive and optimal.

You want to heal using a DK ? You can do that. But you'll have to work way harder than a Templar to achieve the same results. You want to tank using a 2h/bow build ? You can do that, But you'll have to work way harder than a DK with sword and board.

Stam NB have tools like Leeching strikes. Mark, can use Blur and have a high dodge rate. Right now leeching needs a buff, but NB "Could" become strong with self sustain with a few buffs and tweaks that could help. Mind you it still fails to come close to shield sorcs. I also have seen very little Stam NB go in and kill targets fast, with how much defense players have now and sustain. It would take a player having to out gear by a good amount or cp.

Mashille · February 2016

Sorcs...

Stam sorcs, I have a dream that one day we will get a buff or new skill.

cazlonb16_ESO · February 2016

Bromburak wrote: »

Title must be a joke

It's a thread necro from about a year ago, when stamina builds in general weren't great. A lot of claims in this thread were simply BS even then though.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

This thread was at first confusing by nature since the beginning of the discussion is a year and a month old. I do think that all stamina builds are facing a bit of a power adjustment with respect to magic right now, but I'm not sure that is a class issue (though some classes are effected more than others). NB still has at its disposal things like Piercing Mark, leeching strikes, blur, cloak, and some very good weavable stamina based attacks/executes/ultimate executes. I'm actually okay with the notion of ZoS giving Bone Shield a morph with magic/physical bubble instead of just physical, with the understanding that a poor man's cloak should come available for other classes.

I also think they need to limit shield stacking to some degree, and probably adjust the Sorc's Ward to be health based for its scale. I know a lot of Sorcs that don't like this, but it really makes no sense that to be tanky you also need to push your magicka as high as it can go. Unique playstyle is great, but not when it comes at the cost of game balance. If they take in this area though, I admit they need to make up for it in another way, and I would say shields should be able to be hit with crits. This would be a buff to all crit builds, but particularly to Sorcs in the form of their Crit Surge. Allowing this would also mean that they should get rid of the Battle Spirit adjustments to shield sizes, and voila, it would be relatively balanced. Honestly, I think ZoS should take a look at the way DC Universe Online handled game balance. That game is very 'arcade style' like ESO (including some really cool combo systems) and runs multiplatform as well. DCUO is likewise a f2p-type game. More importantly though DCUO is a game that is heavily built for pvp (although it has plenty of conitnuing pve content releases, just like ESO). The big thing DCUO did that was really smart, is that they built the game around PVP balance FIRST, and then designed the NPC ai to play at least player-like. I think ESO has done this to a certain extent, but I believe if they develop the game more and more like that, it will become a MMO Supergiant. Ultimately, we can offer all kinds of reforms, but really the game just needs a holistic unified sense of balance that it doesn't have currently. I realize why the game has lost some of its balance, in part because of adding a lot of cool new systems, but I really strongly believe they need to try to rein it in now.

Samsayia · February 2016

Varicite wrote: »

They are still the best stamina class in PvE, though.

Everybody already knows that NBs get shafted in PvP when it comes to class-based defensives, and thus stamina NBs are pigeon-holed into stealth burst / gank types of builds.

This is of course exacerbated by the oft-mentioned by players, rarely mentioned by devs Shadow Cloak mechanics that may or may not still be getting worked on.

THIS.

NB archer stam build has been great for PVE. But I'll have to respec if I wanted to do PVP because of the mentioned pigeonholing. You either spec to stealth burst gank or you suck and you're doing the nightblade class wrong

Kr3do · February 2016

mb10 · February 2016

I feel like you made this post 2 minutes after being killed numerous times by a stamina nightblade today...

Artis · February 2016

Idk why everyone is complaining about NBs. In Haderus there are not so many NBs in top 100. Most represented classes there are templars and sorcs (top 10 was almost all templars yesterday). I guess, I should do some research and observe the numbers frequently for few cycles just to get the truth. It's just that I noticed recently that most popular are templars and sorcs, not NBs even though for some reason forums complain about NBs.

DKsUnite · February 2016

everyone quoting things from a year ago.... are you guys okay? o.O do you know how to read dates?

templesus · February 2016

Are..are..are you all sane? Can't win in face to face combat? Your telling me you can't win with a 10k spammable surprise attack? Oh brother...

Tryxus · February 2016

Man, ppl really want a Necromancer class....

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

It is sad the same facts in the past are true today. Talk about a slow development team.

clayandaudrey_ESO · February 2016

This necro really delivers.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Can we close this thread already?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

izJordy · February 2016

meh, i like my stamina NB, i'm not having any trouble 1v1ing other classes, the only thing that bothers me atm are people who spamm the same ability over and over again, wrecking blow dks or templars spamming one ability for hours lmao.

anyways i don't think a stamina NB is the worst at all, good gear, weapons, 23,000 health, 28,000 stamina, 3400 weapon damage and 75% critical chance etc, dual wield/2H is more weapon damage tho, but 2H/bow is nice aswell.

stay back with your bow, use rally all the time ofc, then i have vigor on my bow i can heal myself and survive, staying back, buffing, healing, cloaking to escape and then i could snipe, poision and relentless focus and continue like that, i'll survive and do lots of damage aswell, i don't enjoy staying back with a bow tho and it wouldn't work in a 1v1, so what i do is start the fight off with a bow prob snipe -> poision switch to 2h, ambush, suprise attack into another suprise attack or exuctioner or wrecking blow depends really, then fear them and ambush, ultimate and so on.. claok escape, heal up, continue..

the point is NO CLASS is the worst, if you can play the class well then you'll do good with the class and have no trouble

(please stop spamming wrecking blow)

bowmanz607 · February 2016

Please lock thread please.