Septimus_Magna wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

I'll make sure to spread out the next time I'm inside a keep trying to take it with 20 people vs 70. Thanks for the advice

you can put more than 1 hole in it and also, if there's 70 people there's a much higher chance of a weak link in the chain which you can take advantage of using the same det+vicious death setup.

It isn't my fault EP won't fight Vehemence without an overwhelming defensive position brother, but its not an unfamiliar concept, I saw it all the time when I was running with you guys.

The reality is, taking keeps has always been sorta clunky against groups that chose to be a pain in the ass (panic swapping flags, stair meteors, stacking 10000 people on a flag, etc) and the change to rapids is a much bigger detriment to assaulting keeps than any of the new sets imo

The call to spread out is what bothers me, because I know you know better. The places you need to capture in this game are tight spaces, filled with oil, enemy siege and enemy players. You win as a team, focusing damage and heals against bigger numbers. Spreading out gets you killed because you get swarmed because one player alone vs a horde can't do anything.

There's a keep take I'll post if I can ever get Books to upload it of us taking Chal vs literally 70+ EP. There's several points where we get caught in heavy oil and damage and manage to retreat to cover with only a few losses, get our feet back under us and continue the fight. This set would make fights like that impossible. Rwcovering from losses is fun, it's skilled play... Having those losses chain reaction into an automatic group wipe is a horrible mechanic.

It's a great idea, but with the current state of the game it's a LOLWAT mechanic.

Might I suggest 4 man teams when spreading out. Basically the goal is to avoid your whole team of 24 bloody people from dying.

Still waiting to hear how spreading out is supposed to work inside a hostile keep flooded with enemy players. Spreading out open field is simple, though again, against huge numbers you're just splitting yourselves into bite-sized pieces

Open up more holes into keeps? Chokepoints on inners are still going to be tough though.

Our favorite blobspammers are already hard at work testing these theories so they can be ahead in the meta before patch even goes live.

Your favorite blob spammers will be waiting inside keeps, laughing at anyone who tries to take them. I will collect some huge defense ticks I have literally no need for

Like, I'm trying to play the game and attack and do the things that make the game fun. But apparently this is a bad idea and I should sit in highly defensible positions and farm people. That is what ZoS wants, apparently.

This. How the heck will anyone take a tower farm now? Unfirtunately pugs cant stay off the damn flag to siege the tower down. they will simply continue to siege the keep from the top safely to force players to try to come in and get rekt.

there are ap farming guilds out there, heck ap farming leet small mans, licking their chops at tower farming next patch.

Zos i suggest making resource towers siegable regardless of who owns the flag.

Also this is a major source of lag. It concentrates players real bad. Watch ping rate when their is a tower farm anywhere on map. gets rediculous.

The best way to deal with tower farmers is not to go into the tower

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Erynyes wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Scamandros wrote: »

Why gank one player when now you gank 20 at a time!

20 at a time? Doing only 15k dmg total I dont see how this would take out 1 person much less 20.

you obviously, never been bomb by aeryj, thinking about what he's gonna do with the new det+vicious already gives me nightmare

It says max it can do is 15k dmg. Probably not to one target right? So come on its not that bad.

Thats not max dmg, its tooltip dmg. The explosion can crit and the fire dmg can be increased with CPs or racial passives.

My tooltip dmg for Nerienths is close to 8k but Ive hit players for 11k in the IC sewers, that was with only 30 CP into Thaumaturge.

Im not even a hard core player and my character has over 20k health. Also this is damage to everyone not targetted to one person. So if there are 20 people there all sudden you did 11k divided by 20 dmg. I dont understand why people are freaking out about this. The dmg even if done to one person is not enough to remove half of the average players health.

This is not how aoe dmg works, the 11k dmg is not the total dmg done but the dmg done to each target in the area.

For example, Pulsar dealing 3k dmg to 5 targets will deal 3k x 5 = 15k total dmg per cast.

Rainingblood wrote: »

So bad... Like there needed to be another reason to make you wonder what the hell ZoS is thinking. Do they really think this won't be exploitable? People already gushing about how they'll be able to solo entire raids now... "Now there's finally balance! How dare that group of 24 streamroll my 3-man gank group!" What? Good grief...

Just reading all the giggity-goos from certain players in this thread should be enough to push them make some changes, or at least some clarifications.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

I'll make sure to spread out the next time I'm inside a keep trying to take it with 20 people vs 70. Thanks for the advice

you can put more than 1 hole in it and also, if there's 70 people there's a much higher chance of a weak link in the chain which you can take advantage of using the same det+vicious death setup.

It isn't my fault EP won't fight Vehemence without an overwhelming defensive position brother, but its not an unfamiliar concept, I saw it all the time when I was running with you guys.

The reality is, taking keeps has always been sorta clunky against groups that chose to be a pain in the ass (panic swapping flags, stair meteors, stacking 10000 people on a flag, etc) and the change to rapids is a much bigger detriment to assaulting keeps than any of the new sets imo

The call to spread out is what bothers me, because I know you know better. The places you need to capture in this game are tight spaces, filled with oil, enemy siege and enemy players. You win as a team, focusing damage and heals against bigger numbers. Spreading out gets you killed because you get swarmed because one player alone vs a horde can't do anything.

There's a keep take I'll post if I can ever get Books to upload it of us taking Chal vs literally 70+ EP. There's several points where we get caught in heavy oil and damage and manage to retreat to cover with only a few losses, get our feet back under us and continue the fight. This set would make fights like that impossible. Rwcovering from losses is fun, it's skilled play... Having those losses chain reaction into an automatic group wipe is a horrible mechanic.

It's a great idea, but with the current state of the game it's a LOLWAT mechanic.

Might I suggest 4 man teams when spreading out. Basically the goal is to avoid your whole team of 24 bloody people from dying.

Still waiting to hear how spreading out is supposed to work inside a hostile keep flooded with enemy players. Spreading out open field is simple, though again, against huge numbers you're just splitting yourselves into bite-sized pieces

Open up more holes into keeps? Chokepoints on inners are still going to be tough though.

Our favorite blobspammers are already hard at work testing these theories so they can be ahead in the meta before patch even goes live.

Your favorite blob spammers will be waiting inside keeps, laughing at anyone who tries to take them. I will collect some huge defense ticks I have literally no need for

Like, I'm trying to play the game and attack and do the things that make the game fun. But apparently this is a bad idea and I should sit in highly defensible positions and farm people. That is what ZoS wants, apparently.

This. How the heck will anyone take a tower farm now? Unfirtunately pugs cant stay off the damn flag to siege the tower down. they will simply continue to siege the keep from the top safely to force players to try to come in and get rekt.

there are ap farming guilds out there, heck ap farming leet small mans, licking their chops at tower farming next patch.

Zos i suggest making resource towers siegable regardless of who owns the flag.

Also this is a major source of lag. It concentrates players real bad. Watch ping rate when their is a tower farm anywhere on map. gets rediculous.

The best way to deal with tower farmers is not to go into the tower

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Erynyes wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Scamandros wrote: »

Why gank one player when now you gank 20 at a time!

20 at a time? Doing only 15k dmg total I dont see how this would take out 1 person much less 20.

you obviously, never been bomb by aeryj, thinking about what he's gonna do with the new det+vicious already gives me nightmare

It says max it can do is 15k dmg. Probably not to one target right? So come on its not that bad.

Thats not max dmg, its tooltip dmg. The explosion can crit and the fire dmg can be increased with CPs or racial passives.

My tooltip dmg for Nerienths is close to 8k but Ive hit players for 11k in the IC sewers, that was with only 30 CP into Thaumaturge.

Im not even a hard core player and my character has over 20k health. Also this is damage to everyone not targetted to one person. So if there are 20 people there all sudden you did 11k divided by 20 dmg. I dont understand why people are freaking out about this. The dmg even if done to one person is not enough to remove half of the average players health.

This is not how aoe dmg works, the 11k dmg is not the total dmg done but the dmg done to each target in the area.

For example, Pulsar dealing 3k dmg to 5 targets will deal 3k x 5 = 15k total dmg per cast.

Even if this is true for the new skill its still less than half the average player's health. I dont know its true tho. Just because one skill works that way doesnt mean every skill works that way. Again its a non issue. With all the problems facing pvp this seems silly to focus on.

Scamandros wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

I'll make sure to spread out the next time I'm inside a keep trying to take it with 20 people vs 70. Thanks for the advice

you can put more than 1 hole in it and also, if there's 70 people there's a much higher chance of a weak link in the chain which you can take advantage of using the same det+vicious death setup.

It isn't my fault EP won't fight Vehemence without an overwhelming defensive position brother, but its not an unfamiliar concept, I saw it all the time when I was running with you guys.

The reality is, taking keeps has always been sorta clunky against groups that chose to be a pain in the ass (panic swapping flags, stair meteors, stacking 10000 people on a flag, etc) and the change to rapids is a much bigger detriment to assaulting keeps than any of the new sets imo

The call to spread out is what bothers me, because I know you know better. The places you need to capture in this game are tight spaces, filled with oil, enemy siege and enemy players. You win as a team, focusing damage and heals against bigger numbers. Spreading out gets you killed because you get swarmed because one player alone vs a horde can't do anything.

There's a keep take I'll post if I can ever get Books to upload it of us taking Chal vs literally 70+ EP. There's several points where we get caught in heavy oil and damage and manage to retreat to cover with only a few losses, get our feet back under us and continue the fight. This set would make fights like that impossible. Rwcovering from losses is fun, it's skilled play... Having those losses chain reaction into an automatic group wipe is a horrible mechanic.

It's a great idea, but with the current state of the game it's a LOLWAT mechanic.

Might I suggest 4 man teams when spreading out. Basically the goal is to avoid your whole team of 24 bloody people from dying.

Still waiting to hear how spreading out is supposed to work inside a hostile keep flooded with enemy players. Spreading out open field is simple, though again, against huge numbers you're just splitting yourselves into bite-sized pieces

Open up more holes into keeps? Chokepoints on inners are still going to be tough though.

Our favorite blobspammers are already hard at work testing these theories so they can be ahead in the meta before patch even goes live.

Your favorite blob spammers will be waiting inside keeps, laughing at anyone who tries to take them. I will collect some huge defense ticks I have literally no need for

Like, I'm trying to play the game and attack and do the things that make the game fun. But apparently this is a bad idea and I should sit in highly defensible positions and farm people. That is what ZoS wants, apparently.

This. How the heck will anyone take a tower farm now? Unfirtunately pugs cant stay off the damn flag to siege the tower down. they will simply continue to siege the keep from the top safely to force players to try to come in and get rekt.

there are ap farming guilds out there, heck ap farming leet small mans, licking their chops at tower farming next patch.

Zos i suggest making resource towers siegable regardless of who owns the flag.

Also this is a major source of lag. It concentrates players real bad. Watch ping rate when their is a tower farm anywhere on map. gets rediculous.

The best way to deal with tower farmers is not to go into the tower

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Erynyes wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Scamandros wrote: »

Why gank one player when now you gank 20 at a time!

20 at a time? Doing only 15k dmg total I dont see how this would take out 1 person much less 20.

you obviously, never been bomb by aeryj, thinking about what he's gonna do with the new det+vicious already gives me nightmare

It says max it can do is 15k dmg. Probably not to one target right? So come on its not that bad.

Thats not max dmg, its tooltip dmg. The explosion can crit and the fire dmg can be increased with CPs or racial passives.

My tooltip dmg for Nerienths is close to 8k but Ive hit players for 11k in the IC sewers, that was with only 30 CP into Thaumaturge.

Im not even a hard core player and my character has over 20k health. Also this is damage to everyone not targetted to one person. So if there are 20 people there all sudden you did 11k divided by 20 dmg. I dont understand why people are freaking out about this. The dmg even if done to one person is not enough to remove half of the average players health.

This is not how aoe dmg works, the 11k dmg is not the total dmg done but the dmg done to each target in the area.

For example, Pulsar dealing 3k dmg to 5 targets will deal 3k x 5 = 15k total dmg per cast.

Even if this is true for the new skill its still less than half the average player's health. I dont know its true tho. Just because one skill works that way doesnt mean every skill works that way. Again its a non issue. With all the problems facing pvp this seems silly to focus on.

Haha, and half a players health is low dmg or something?
This will not be the only dmg you will receive when people next to you are dying.

It will be a zerg burster for sure, multiple Proxy Dets + Meteors with Vicious 5pc will be very hard to mitigate for stacked groups. As soon a someone dies it becomes harder for everyone in the explosion area to survive, which increases the chance for more death and explosions etc. Its a simple chain-reaction effect.

Less than half before mitigations. Its called a challenge too. Its not supposed to be easy in cyrodill.

Our of curiosity I nosied onto your profile to look at your post history. I now ask if you actually pvp, and if you do, do you have more kills or fingers.

Any damage thats going to be applied passively while you are able to continue doing whatever you normally do, is a free spike of burst damage. Alone its not going to kill you. But combine it on top of regular rotations/combos and it will open alot more opportunities for killing blows. Its partly why prox is so strong even for small scale, its also what makes the sorc curse, frag, execute combo so deadly: All the damage goes off at once

Sanct16 wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Everyone talking about chain explosions, is this just a wet dream of yours or does the set actually trigger itself?

It doesn't proc itself but people getting hit by it are very likely to die aswell if you damage them enough with regular skills.

Imagine a 20 man raid getting bombed by lets say 8 people with VD set. On first impact like 6-7 guys die, killing another 4-5 with the VD explosion. The ones that survived the first burst + the explosions will most likely at least drop low health and might end up getting killed by the 8 man group. And so on.

So its not exactly a chainreaction but still somewhat close to it.

Sanct16 wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Everyone talking about chain explosions, is this just a wet dream of yours or does the set actually trigger itself?

It doesn't proc itself but people getting hit by it are very likely to die aswell if you damage them enough with regular skills.

Imagine a 20 man raid getting bombed by lets say 8 people with VD set. On first impact like 6-7 guys die, killing another 4-5 with the VD explosion. The ones that survived the first burst + the explosions will most likely at least drop low health and might end up getting killed by the 8 man group. And so on.

So its not exactly a chainreaction but still somewhat close to it.

Thanks, that's how I expected it to be. I've read somewhere that the radius is rather small, so it's really a punishment for stacking up and having weak players in there that got used to being carried by AoE caps (with the other changes that are coming now).

Pretty sure big groups will use it as well, but
a) if you played in small groups, loosing one or two players was a problem on its own before (not so much for the big group), and
b) people dying in my small-to-medium groups are rarely with the group, instead they *** up and died a million meters away.

Sounds quite balanced after all.

The thing is, in a small group you usually wipe anyway if you lose a couple (unless you are zergsurfing, but then you aren't really a "small" group).

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Satiar

I think the biggest problem with the game at the moment is how strong numbers are in group play. It doesn't really require a lot of effort to be effective with a train at the moment; you need a good group setup, a good raidlead, everyone running optimal gear/builds and people following the leaders calls and numbers. The more people the better. There is basically no drawback to increasing your group size.

The reason why we see those huge 60+ zergs is because people prefer to win even if it means to outnumber the opponent instead of actually trying to improve as a group. No doubt that there is times when running groups of 20+ might be reasonable, however most guilds don't run with a certain amount of people because they actually HAVE to but for various other reasons. Usually it is either "Its the easiest way to get AP", "we want to play largescale, thats why we bought the game", "we don't want to exclude anyone", etc. As a result we see the zergs get bigger and bigger. If you wipe just get some more people or go together with another guild. People "justify" their own group size (or even adding more people to it) by pointing out that the other side has even more people.

Pretty sure everyone remembers the wall of elements bug in 1.5 where your whole group would blow up if you purged at the wrong time. I think it was one of the best mechanics in the game ever together with dynamic ultimate.
As a reminder: In order to not die while purging on wall of elements you had to (A) move out of the walls (really slow) (B) Use the purify synergy (C) cast a negate and purge within it as it removed wall of elements.
With a big group you were always threatend to die because a moron in your group *** up or you lost people that didnt use the purify. Basically you had more damage but were "slower".

This is what we need atm: A drawback to adding more people to your group. I don't agree with every single change ZOS is making in the next patch but overall I think PvP will move in a better direction. With a bigger group you will still have more damage, but it comes with some drawbacks:

1. You become slower: With the changes to barrier it will be quite hard to just tank an opposing group rushing you by simply rotating barriers. Movement will be more important in order to avoid damage but if you have *** guys that lose maneuver and get stuck in the back your group will start falling apart. Especially with the change to maneuver individual movement will be even more important and if your group consists of *** you will get punished for it.
   With purge being capped to 6 people you will have to recognize when you got sieged and have more people purging or you will certainly lose a bunch.
2. You are easier to burst: Kinda related to the first point as you wont be able to easily avoid the burst. But you also take more damage from detonations as the group rushing you will most likely hit always at least 10 people. Moreover for everyone who dies the survivors take a lot of damage because of Vicious Death.
3. You will get less AP: With the changed AP gain ratios I am quite sure that smaller groups will be easily able to outfarm bigger ones.

The changes won't destroy big organised groups, it will hopefully just increase the effort needed to make it work and result in people running smaller groups.

Satiar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

I'll make sure to spread out the next time I'm inside a keep trying to take it with 20 people vs 70. Thanks for the advice

you can put more than 1 hole in it and also, if there's 70 people there's a much higher chance of a weak link in the chain which you can take advantage of using the same det+vicious death setup.

It isn't my fault EP won't fight Vehemence without an overwhelming defensive position brother, but its not an unfamiliar concept, I saw it all the time when I was running with you guys.

The reality is, taking keeps has always been sorta clunky against groups that chose to be a pain in the ass (panic swapping flags, stair meteors, stacking 10000 people on a flag, etc) and the change to rapids is a much bigger detriment to assaulting keeps than any of the new sets imo

The call to spread out is what bothers me, because I know you know better. The places you need to capture in this game are tight spaces, filled with oil, enemy siege and enemy players. You win as a team, focusing damage and heals against bigger numbers. Spreading out gets you killed because you get swarmed because one player alone vs a horde can't do anything.

There's a keep take I'll post if I can ever get Books to upload it of us taking Chal vs literally 70+ EP. There's several points where we get caught in heavy oil and damage and manage to retreat to cover with only a few losses, get our feet back under us and continue the fight. This set would make fights like that impossible. Rwcovering from losses is fun, it's skilled play... Having those losses chain reaction into an automatic group wipe is a horrible mechanic.

It's a great idea, but with the current state of the game it's a LOLWAT mechanic.

Might I suggest 4 man teams when spreading out. Basically the goal is to avoid your whole team of 24 bloody people from dying.

Still waiting to hear how spreading out is supposed to work inside a hostile keep flooded with enemy players. Spreading out open field is simple, though again, against huge numbers you're just splitting yourselves into bite-sized pieces

Open up more holes into keeps? Chokepoints on inners are still going to be tough though.

I mean *inside* a keep.

Also that's a BS solution. If you're fighting outnumbered why does opening two breaches help? Why does splitting yourself into two smaller, easier to kill groups help anything when fighting outnumbered.

And when I'm inside the inner, trying to clear out 60 players, how does "spreading out" do anything but make it harder to kill them and easier for us to die?

Someone please explain this concept for the love of God. "Spreading out" in the context of this games keep mechanics and objectives is just so so stupid.

Let's assume the patch goes to live without any significant changes to what it is now.

You shouldn't look at spreading out as in everyone running into a different direction but more like splitting the raid into smaller groups when needed. Instead of balling on the same flag with 20 people you could split into 2 10 man groups with one group clearing upstairs while the other flips the flags. This is just an example of course, not saying it is the optimal way to take a keep but I can definetly see it being a superior approach to balling on a flag. Would require a lot of effort to coordinate properly etc tho.

In general I think there is always a way, you just have to find it. To be honest I don't really see why fighting 20v70 should get way harder with those changes. You might need to fight differently but it should definelty be possible.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Everyone talking about chain explosions, is this just a wet dream of yours or does the set actually trigger itself?

It doesn't proc itself but people getting hit by it are very likely to die aswell if you damage them enough with regular skills.

Imagine a 20 man raid getting bombed by lets say 8 people with VD set. On first impact like 6-7 guys die, killing another 4-5 with the VD explosion. The ones that survived the first burst + the explosions will most likely at least drop low health and might end up getting killed by the 8 man group. And so on.

So its not exactly a chainreaction but still somewhat close to it.

Zheg wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Satiar

I think the biggest problem with the game at the moment is how strong numbers are in group play. It doesn't really require a lot of effort to be effective with a train at the moment; you need a good group setup, a good raidlead, everyone running optimal gear/builds and people following the leaders calls and numbers. The more people the better. There is basically no drawback to increasing your group size.

The reason why we see those huge 60+ zergs is because people prefer to win even if it means to outnumber the opponent instead of actually trying to improve as a group. No doubt that there is times when running groups of 20+ might be reasonable, however most guilds don't run with a certain amount of people because they actually HAVE to but for various other reasons. Usually it is either "Its the easiest way to get AP", "we want to play largescale, thats why we bought the game", "we don't want to exclude anyone", etc. As a result we see the zergs get bigger and bigger. If you wipe just get some more people or go together with another guild. People "justify" their own group size (or even adding more people to it) by pointing out that the other side has even more people.

Pretty sure everyone remembers the wall of elements bug in 1.5 where your whole group would blow up if you purged at the wrong time. I think it was one of the best mechanics in the game ever together with dynamic ultimate.
As a reminder: In order to not die while purging on wall of elements you had to (A) move out of the walls (really slow) (B) Use the purify synergy (C) cast a negate and purge within it as it removed wall of elements.
With a big group you were always threatend to die because a moron in your group *** up or you lost people that didnt use the purify. Basically you had more damage but were "slower".

This is what we need atm: A drawback to adding more people to your group. I don't agree with every single change ZOS is making in the next patch but overall I think PvP will move in a better direction. With a bigger group you will still have more damage, but it comes with some drawbacks:

1. You become slower: With the changes to barrier it will be quite hard to just tank an opposing group rushing you by simply rotating barriers. Movement will be more important in order to avoid damage but if you have *** guys that lose maneuver and get stuck in the back your group will start falling apart. Especially with the change to maneuver individual movement will be even more important and if your group consists of *** you will get punished for it.
   With purge being capped to 6 people you will have to recognize when you got sieged and have more people purging or you will certainly lose a bunch.
2. You are easier to burst: Kinda related to the first point as you wont be able to easily avoid the burst. But you also take more damage from detonations as the group rushing you will most likely hit always at least 10 people. Moreover for everyone who dies the survivors take a lot of damage because of Vicious Death.
3. You will get less AP: With the changed AP gain ratios I am quite sure that smaller groups will be easily able to outfarm bigger ones.

The changes won't destroy big organised groups, it will hopefully just increase the effort needed to make it work and result in people running smaller groups.

Satiar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

I'll make sure to spread out the next time I'm inside a keep trying to take it with 20 people vs 70. Thanks for the advice

you can put more than 1 hole in it and also, if there's 70 people there's a much higher chance of a weak link in the chain which you can take advantage of using the same det+vicious death setup.

It isn't my fault EP won't fight Vehemence without an overwhelming defensive position brother, but its not an unfamiliar concept, I saw it all the time when I was running with you guys.

The reality is, taking keeps has always been sorta clunky against groups that chose to be a pain in the ass (panic swapping flags, stair meteors, stacking 10000 people on a flag, etc) and the change to rapids is a much bigger detriment to assaulting keeps than any of the new sets imo

The call to spread out is what bothers me, because I know you know better. The places you need to capture in this game are tight spaces, filled with oil, enemy siege and enemy players. You win as a team, focusing damage and heals against bigger numbers. Spreading out gets you killed because you get swarmed because one player alone vs a horde can't do anything.

There's a keep take I'll post if I can ever get Books to upload it of us taking Chal vs literally 70+ EP. There's several points where we get caught in heavy oil and damage and manage to retreat to cover with only a few losses, get our feet back under us and continue the fight. This set would make fights like that impossible. Rwcovering from losses is fun, it's skilled play... Having those losses chain reaction into an automatic group wipe is a horrible mechanic.

It's a great idea, but with the current state of the game it's a LOLWAT mechanic.

Might I suggest 4 man teams when spreading out. Basically the goal is to avoid your whole team of 24 bloody people from dying.

Still waiting to hear how spreading out is supposed to work inside a hostile keep flooded with enemy players. Spreading out open field is simple, though again, against huge numbers you're just splitting yourselves into bite-sized pieces

Open up more holes into keeps? Chokepoints on inners are still going to be tough though.

I mean *inside* a keep.

Also that's a BS solution. If you're fighting outnumbered why does opening two breaches help? Why does splitting yourself into two smaller, easier to kill groups help anything when fighting outnumbered.

And when I'm inside the inner, trying to clear out 60 players, how does "spreading out" do anything but make it harder to kill them and easier for us to die?

Someone please explain this concept for the love of God. "Spreading out" in the context of this games keep mechanics and objectives is just so so stupid.

Let's assume the patch goes to live without any significant changes to what it is now.

You shouldn't look at spreading out as in everyone running into a different direction but more like splitting the raid into smaller groups when needed. Instead of balling on the same flag with 20 people you could split into 2 10 man groups with one group clearing upstairs while the other flips the flags. This is just an example of course, not saying it is the optimal way to take a keep but I can definetly see it being a superior approach to balling on a flag. Would require a lot of effort to coordinate properly etc tho.

In general I think there is always a way, you just have to find it. To be honest I don't really see why fighting 20v70 should get way harder with those changes. You might need to fight differently but it should definelty be possible.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Everyone talking about chain explosions, is this just a wet dream of yours or does the set actually trigger itself?

It doesn't proc itself but people getting hit by it are very likely to die aswell if you damage them enough with regular skills.

Imagine a 20 man raid getting bombed by lets say 8 people with VD set. On first impact like 6-7 guys die, killing another 4-5 with the VD explosion. The ones that survived the first burst + the explosions will most likely at least drop low health and might end up getting killed by the 8 man group. And so on.

So its not exactly a chainreaction but still somewhat close to it.

Your wall of text skills rival even my own. I didn't see much in the patch notes that gives benefits to the 20 man in the 20 v 70 fight you talk about that are not equal or greater benefits to the 70 man side. In those situations it's already a zombie horde rez issue as they have enough to instantly rez up anyone that died, and you can't afford to constantly leave people behind to slow down rezzes (notice I didn't say stop, it rarely if ever works that way) and still have enough to continue to contest the main force that still outnumbers you 2 to 1 if not more. Furthermore, when the patch drops, literally everyone will be a rank 10 rez templar if they play the class, so we'll just end up seeing more of that, and with magicka being the new meta we'll see even more people in kags across all classes. Honestly, in these patch notes I see advantages for the smaller group fighting a raid of 20ish, and I see advantages for a giant zerg. Barrier, purge, prox det, vicious death, rapids nerf, forward camps/free rank 10 to every templar, reduced effectiveness of ground control like nova/negate/veil as mitigation tools because of siege and high dmg numbers - frankly these are all things that will benefit gigantic zergs in a 20v70 situation. The damage numbers let smaller groups bomb the 20ish man raid, but they do not translate the same way to the 20ish man raid fighting the 60/70 man zerg. I can bomb one raid worth of the 70, but then our ults are done and the mitigation tools to keep your raid alive no longer function against the remaining 50 that can just meteor you and be done with it. Damage numbers are way too high, mitigation tools are way too few. A meta like this just promotes stealth bombs and dumping as many ults and aoe dps as you can to blow up another group, as they no longer have the tools to counter bomb because they just blew up in < 1 second.

Now, have we been theorycrafting ways to still obliterate people as a 20ish man raid and take on 2-3 times our numbers and salute both @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @Wrobel with a particular finger? Sure have (I'll use both hands if I ever get the opportunity). Is it clear that the target of the patch was to obliterate 20ish man raids? It should be. If the theorycrafting doesn't work out, we'll just end up at keeps like everyone else defending with 60+ to take on the other horde of 60+ that's needed to assault a defended keep. Hopefully the changes they've done for performance are actually impactful, because in those situations it's just going to be last emp keep lag all of the time. We'll wait to the sides like pugs with our meteors and left click siege and pvp will be thrilling /sarcasm. Oh and when you die, you can just instantly be rezzed back up or take a forward camp and suffer zero penalties, hooray.

Zheg wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Having come back to ESO for the first time in months a couple of days ago, I was pleasantly surprised to see 80ms ping in pve zones. However it turned into 150ms upon entering Cyrodiil (not great, but playable), and as soon as you come across a keep battle, 500ms+ slide show begins because there's a big blob of players stacked on top of one anotrher spamming AoEs.

It would seem this is the source of all the server performance woes so why not just force these blobs to change up their play style. Not to deter big group play, but FORCE them to change up how they approach combat by making this set instantly incinerate some of them. Make the damage 30k, 50k, whatever to guarantee the death of 2 other persons nearby. I can't see a simpler way of solving the server lag than this. Again, not advocating destroying large group play, but just force their hand so they change tactics to spread out more, and end the stacking AoE spam.

I'm pretty sure the amount of people that will stick around or even return to the game because the lag has gone will far outnumber those that will leave because they can't play stack on the crown anymore.

Because the assumption you made is wholly inaccurate. Those keep fights lag because of total bodies, not because of a large group. This is a blatantly false narrative that's parroted by people on the forums, and then repeated enough times so people think it's true. If you roll up to a keep the ping is almost identical if 45 players are all spread out in the keep or if they're all condensed in a relative area. Patches like this PROMOTE people to bring more numbers, particularly for keep assaults, and will result in even more lag; how people don't realize that is beyond me. They said they're adding in performance adjustments behind the scenes, so hopefully that helps as a counterweight to the intentional mess they're causing. Toss in a few forward camps, everyone having rank 10 rez capabilities, and you're going to see your ping go even higher. But yay! I can blow someone up! hooray!