How far would you go to support a trade guild?

Xjcon · February 2016

Me personaly, I won't put anything in to it aside from items for sale.
What gets me is usually after a guild loses its kiosk they panic for more gold. Even if they paid over a million per week they didn't spend that gold if they didn't get a kiosk.

Supporting a trade guild should be about buying items from the guilds store (which can be done from any bank).

Dyynamic70 · February 2016

I was reading my Guild Chat a few weeks ago and one of the Guild Leaders explained it quite simply.

The bids for this particular Guild Store location are typically 1 million gold/week. Our guild roster usually hovers right around the 490 mark.

Let's assume it is at 500 people and all persons are selling in the store. That means each person in the guild needs to generate at least 2K gold per week to reach the 1 million gold mark. At 3.5% from each sale every Guild member needs to sell 57,000k+ each week. Personally I do not even come close to this. I average around 15-20K/week. So I tend to buy/donate or participate in auctions for at least 10K each week.

Anyway, that is just one, very specific example. You need to learn how your Guild works and see how many people are active. The more activity usually means profits are better.

EQBallzz · February 2016

sylviermoone wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I agree. This whole raffle business is ripe for scamming. I hate to be the cynic (actually, no I don't) but this kind of environment just leads to bad behavior eventually. I hope I'm completely wrong but it really wouldn't surprise me if half of these raffles were rigged or otherwise bogus in some way.

demendred wrote: »

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Fear Mongering Increased to Rank III

If you think that is fear mongering you're either naive or haven't played many MMOs . Give people the opportunity and some will take advantage. Just search for all the threads on these very forums where people are pleading for more guild tools like guild bank tabs with permissions because in the current system of all or nothing access guild banks get cleaned out by unscrupulous members. There are also many threads about guild leaders ripping off members. If you think people aren't abusing this raffle system by either skimming gold for themselves or outright ripping people off in various ways you aren't thinking clearly.

I'm sure most operate with integrity but that doesn't mean there isn't a minority of scammers/cheats and because this works outside the game mechanics it's impossible to have true transparency so nobody really knows what is going on behind the scenes.

It's absolutely possible to have transparency regarding raffles:
1) ticket purchases deposited directly to guild bank (allows members to view deposit history)
2) deposits compiled to Google spreadsheet, to have ticket numbers assigned (spreadsheet available for view by ALL members)
3) Roll in a public rolling room such as Rolz.org, with non-officer members in attendance.
4) Post winning ticket numbers, again viewable by ALL members.

That's an interesting method. I haven't tried this but can you even view deposit history that would be that long? In my experience with the guild bank log history it's so short that it cuts the history off so soon you can't go back very far in the history ever (especially if you use an addon like Roomba to restack all the items that don't autostack). I would assume that all the guild bank histories operate in the same way?

Beyond that it's still a lot of work for a member to keep track of and investigate and I doubt most guilds even use this method. Even if they did use this method and the history really is intact enough to view hundreds of deposits it's still a lot of work for members to add up hundreds of deposits and reconcile this with the jackpot amounts. Also, what about non-gold prizes? If the prizes are gold tempers or recipes that were donated you can't easily equate ticket sales to prizes and kiosk bidding amounts. Also, what happens to all the excess gold that didn't go to prizes and bidding? One assumes this folds over into future bidding but yet another thing to try and keep track of.

The bottom line is we have to go through this convoluted process outside the game to try and manage the kiosk system and all because this is the system ZOS came up with. It's just a terrible system and needs a lot of work to fix it.

sylviermoone · February 2016

@EQBallzz

On PC, I can press 'E' when on the deposit history screen and go back 10 days. That is more than enough history to see gold deposits within the last week.

I can not speak for every Guild Leader out there, and I'm sure and have heard stories of some really shady practices. I can speak to how I manage my guild, and I know that there are many guild leaders out there besides me that do their best to manage their guilds with the utmost integrity and transparency. Most of those guilds only selectively recruit, or have a waiting list for membership.

It is an awful lot to keep track of, and for our part we try to make it as easy on the member to "check our math" as we possibly can. Our entire gold deposit log is available online for our membership to view at any time. Raffle deposits are split out and assigned numbers; entirely viewable online. We post raffle winners in 3 different places: in our public rolling room (chat conversation there is stored for a week or two as well) and in the games chat during the roll, as well as on our publicly accessible google sheet.

We give back about 50% of the gold generated in gold and item prizes. We have 3 raffle tiers that generate prizes independent of each other, and that information can be seen on our publicly accessible sheet, as well.

We have an auction each week; the items up for auction are placed on our publicly accessible page, along with who donated them, what the value of the donation is, and after the auction is completed we post the winning bids there as well.

In addition, we export sales and purchases data from the game for each guild member, compile that information along with raffle activity and donation history from the past week, and use that information to calculate the amount of gold that each member generated for the guild in the previous week, which is how ranks are determined. Every member can see our bid history once our kiosk has been won, and thus has that number accessible to them as well.

As to excess gold, we have in the past given tax rebates, though that excess is better used by holding it on "escrow" so to speak, to be dipped into when the income generated doesn't match what we need to bid to be reasonably sure we will maintain our kiosk, or in the case that we desire to be upwardly mobile and provide a better location for our sellers. That gold stays in the guild bank, the balance of which is publicly viewable.

Again, I'm not saying ALL trading guilds operate with this level of detail and transparency; just giving insight as to what I feel is necessary to maintaining that level of transparency. I wish more guild leaders could or would do this, but it does take a TON of work to maintain, particularly with the limited interface the game has. A better interface would allow more guilds to operate with greater transparency, and more members to feel secure that there contributions are being used effectively.

Gidorick · February 2016

Pretty far...

EQBallzz · February 2016

sylviermoone wrote: »

@EQBallzz

On PC, I can press 'E' when on the deposit history screen and go back 10 days. That is more than enough history to see gold deposits within the last week.

I can not speak for every Guild Leader out there, and I'm sure and have heard stories of some really shady practices. I can speak to how I manage my guild, and I know that there are many guild leaders out there besides me that do their best to manage their guilds with the utmost integrity and transparency. Most of those guilds only selectively recruit, or have a waiting list for membership.

It is an awful lot to keep track of, and for our part we try to make it as easy on the member to "check our math" as we possibly can. Our entire gold deposit log is available online for our membership to view at any time. Raffle deposits are split out and assigned numbers; entirely viewable online. We post raffle winners in 3 different places: in our public rolling room (chat conversation there is stored for a week or two as well) and in the games chat during the roll, as well as on our publicly accessible google sheet.

We give back about 50% of the gold generated in gold and item prizes. We have 3 raffle tiers that generate prizes independent of each other, and that information can be seen on our publicly accessible sheet, as well.

We have an auction each week; the items up for auction are placed on our publicly accessible page, along with who donated them, what the value of the donation is, and after the auction is completed we post the winning bids there as well.

In addition, we export sales and purchases data from the game for each guild member, compile that information along with raffle activity and donation history from the past week, and use that information to calculate the amount of gold that each member generated for the guild in the previous week, which is how ranks are determined. Every member can see our bid history once our kiosk has been won, and thus has that number accessible to them as well.

As to excess gold, we have in the past given tax rebates, though that excess is better used by holding it on "escrow" so to speak, to be dipped into when the income generated doesn't match what we need to bid to be reasonably sure we will maintain our kiosk, or in the case that we desire to be upwardly mobile and provide a better location for our sellers. That gold stays in the guild bank, the balance of which is publicly viewable.

Again, I'm not saying ALL trading guilds operate with this level of detail and transparency; just giving insight as to what I feel is necessary to maintaining that level of transparency. I wish more guild leaders could or would do this, but it does take a TON of work to maintain, particularly with the limited interface the game has. A better interface would allow more guilds to operate with greater transparency, and more members to feel secure that there contributions are being used effectively.

I hope you didn't think I was indicting you or your guild. I took what you said at face value and I'm sure your guild is legit. I also didn't mean to imply that most guilds are shady. I doubt they are. At worst some are probably just not that efficient or able to put as many controls or transparency on the flow of gold and prizes that you describe.

However, even if a small minority of guilds don't run their guilds well (incompetent/lazy/lacking time) or worse are purposely taking advantage of players it's too much. The fact that you have to go through that much work outside the game to set up a fair and transparent system to manage kiosks is proof enough that this system is broken IMO.

Sorry to the OP..this has gone a bit offtrack!

sylviermoone · February 2016

EQBallzz wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

@EQBallzz

On PC, I can press 'E' when on the deposit history screen and go back 10 days. That is more than enough history to see gold deposits within the last week.

I can not speak for every Guild Leader out there, and I'm sure and have heard stories of some really shady practices. I can speak to how I manage my guild, and I know that there are many guild leaders out there besides me that do their best to manage their guilds with the utmost integrity and transparency. Most of those guilds only selectively recruit, or have a waiting list for membership.

It is an awful lot to keep track of, and for our part we try to make it as easy on the member to "check our math" as we possibly can. Our entire gold deposit log is available online for our membership to view at any time. Raffle deposits are split out and assigned numbers; entirely viewable online. We post raffle winners in 3 different places: in our public rolling room (chat conversation there is stored for a week or two as well) and in the games chat during the roll, as well as on our publicly accessible google sheet.

We give back about 50% of the gold generated in gold and item prizes. We have 3 raffle tiers that generate prizes independent of each other, and that information can be seen on our publicly accessible sheet, as well.

We have an auction each week; the items up for auction are placed on our publicly accessible page, along with who donated them, what the value of the donation is, and after the auction is completed we post the winning bids there as well.

In addition, we export sales and purchases data from the game for each guild member, compile that information along with raffle activity and donation history from the past week, and use that information to calculate the amount of gold that each member generated for the guild in the previous week, which is how ranks are determined. Every member can see our bid history once our kiosk has been won, and thus has that number accessible to them as well.

As to excess gold, we have in the past given tax rebates, though that excess is better used by holding it on "escrow" so to speak, to be dipped into when the income generated doesn't match what we need to bid to be reasonably sure we will maintain our kiosk, or in the case that we desire to be upwardly mobile and provide a better location for our sellers. That gold stays in the guild bank, the balance of which is publicly viewable.

Again, I'm not saying ALL trading guilds operate with this level of detail and transparency; just giving insight as to what I feel is necessary to maintaining that level of transparency. I wish more guild leaders could or would do this, but it does take a TON of work to maintain, particularly with the limited interface the game has. A better interface would allow more guilds to operate with greater transparency, and more members to feel secure that there contributions are being used effectively.

I hope you didn't think I was indicting you or your guild. I took what you said at face value and I'm sure your guild is legit. I also didn't mean to imply that most guilds are shady. I doubt they are. At worst some are probably just not that efficient or able to put as many controls or transparency on the flow of gold and prizes that you describe.

However, even if a small minority of guilds don't run their guilds well (incompetent/lazy/lacking time) or worse are purposely taking advantage of players it's too much. The fact that you have to go through that much work outside the game to set up a fair and transparent system to manage kiosks is proof enough that this system is broken IMO.

Sorry to the OP..this has gone a bit offtrack!

I didn't think that at all. Just wanted to share what we go through to ensure as much transparency as possible.

I do agree, some changes should happen within the system to allow for greater transparency as part of the vanilla interface. Luckily, being on PC allows me the opportunity to use and write add-ons to help with this. I shudder to think what console GMS go through to maintain this level of transparency.

MrDerrikk · February 2016

Eh, I just make sure I put my more competitive drops in my 2 trade guilds at better prices, so I get sales. That's all they're getting out of me.

Now, social guilds are another thing entirely...

babylon · February 2016

The problem is there are a lot of people in the game, everyone must be in a guild to trade, and only 500 people per trade guild - then to break the whole system, the amount of kiosks available to sell your goods to the wider community is so severely limited in proportion to the numbers of guilds that kiosk prices are out of control.

The number of kiosks needs to increase, maybe with dedicated trade areas as well, so that all guilds and by extension players of this game can actually trade properly with each other, and no longer have to prop up guilds with all this ridiculous money raising to cover the ridiculous kiosk prices because there just aren't enough to go around.

My sympathies for all dedicated traders, and for all normal people who like to sell the odd thing and make even a little money, and for all the guilds.

Someone fix this already!

ThePonzzz · February 2016

Hey IGG, my opinion is if you're concerned enough to bring it up here, you're probably supporting it too much. While 5000g isn't a whole lot, I'd be questioning the transparency of the transactions going on. Not having someone else to take the guild trader bids is a red flag (IMO) if this is a high traffic kiosk. Depending on your items, if they aren't selling, you might want to consider moving on to a new guild.

Xandryah · February 2016

this is my 2nd MMO and i'm rather a solo-player. But i have joined guilds in the past and still am in a few. It's cool, but many don't even say hello, when you log in etc... or when you ask something... so, you get used to it. It's part of the digital lifestyle, where friends come and go quickly, i suppose...

I heard once or read on these forums that, there were trading guilds that kick players, if they don't sell enough items or it was similar behaviours in this MMO. Also about prices that can't drop below a certain level within the same guild...
Since officially the game still comes without the add-on "Awesome Guildstore", the whole thing is not complete (imo) and not a fair deal between consumer and producer yet. So, I would not care much about trading in ESO

... it's such a pain to sell stuff (without that add-on). I would only buy stuff and sell the rest or deconstruct the rest.. It's not bad to have not too much in game-currency in a MMO too, because the more you have, the more you feel bound to the game.

I also met a few nice guys in a ESO-trading-guild, which did not stop them to kick me after a longer break though, but nvm, it's ok. I used to support the guild with maybe 2300 (maximum) when I was there..others gave 10000 or even more, i don't remember...I have never been a trader, i only used the guild to access better markets..

you can explain a few things, when making a decision for courtesy-purpose (if you want)

it's a game, so you want to feel comfortable in this world, right?

AFrostWolf · February 2016

*** Trade guilds. Where is my Auction house?

gw2only1b14_ESO · February 2016

I always found them to be scamish I just joined 4 guilds trade make my gold fill my slots 30/30 and then made my own Guild(yea i have 1)invited about 200 players mixed faction and use my funds to pay for the guild trader I never ask for 1 gold I fund myself.

I was in several right out of Beta and to demand players fill up and sell and demand they donate to bank ect is the reason you see Trader wars on kiosk and see 700k and more going to fund a kiosk.

Its crazy and the funny thing take a area like WrothGar most of them have crap on it lol

DRXHarbinger · February 2016

I paid 820k on Monday out of my own gold just to get the trader again. Won't make it back but other people I play with depend on it so whatever. It's a game not like it's my actual bank account.

Lysette · February 2016

I have not much of a clue about ESO guilds yet. I just want to point out, that things like raffles and lottery are called GAMBLING and not TRADING. On another note, maybe your guild has too many sellers and no or too less buyers in the guild. If you would attract buyers and accept them as members, you would not necessarily need a kiosk. So maybe you could support your guild not with money, but with attracting customers to join your guild. For them it would as well be much easier to buy from your store instead from others, because they would have access to the guild store at any bank.

Maybe I am wrong, because I know too little about the guild system in ESO, but these are my 2 cents.

Lysette · February 2016

Xjcon wrote: »

Me personaly, I won't put anything in to it aside from items for sale.
What gets me is usually after a guild loses its kiosk they panic for more gold. Even if they paid over a million per week they didn't spend that gold if they didn't get a kiosk.

Supporting a trade guild should be about buying items from the guilds store (which can be done from any bank).

This - at least someone is thinking along the same line.

Bossdonut · February 2016

The god damn tax they get from my sales is more than enough. Greedy ***.

babylon · February 2016

Bossdonut wrote: »

The god damn tax they get from my sales is more than enough. Greedy ***.

The problem is if you are wanting to be in a trade guild which has to bid on overpriced kiosks each week so you can sell to the whole community, or if you're happy just selling to the people in your guild. If you want to sell to more people then don't have that attitude.

IrishGirlGamer · February 2016

EQBallzz wrote: »

Sorry to the OP..this has gone a bit offtrack!

Don't be. I learned a lot from that discussion.

Jaeysa · February 2016

Bossdonut wrote: »

The god damn tax they get from my sales is more than enough. Greedy ***.

What, you expect the GL to front the million gold every week to purchase the trade kiosk? Because that's how much the competitive ones cost.

Lysette · February 2016

I think that one of the problems here is modern thinking with these guilds - most trading guilds collect just sellers, who have to contribute to bid on kiosks to sell that stuff to a group of people, which is not in the guild. It is NOT the community, like many think, because those kiosks are local and are just serving the locals and visitors in that area. This concept of bidding on kiosks, which are somewhat rare, leads to a concentration of sellers in trading guilds, which converts them into kind of an auction house, where all members compete with each other. There is a common purpose but no common wealth.

I doubt that this was the intention behind the guild concept in ESO. I think if a guild manages to accumulate people, who are selling their surplus and buy what they are missing from the guild store, with reasonable prices, not rip offs, this could be a really nice trading cooperative for a common wealth. But it would require to keep the pepper sacks out and attract people, who have supply and demand at about an equal relation. So in the end it would be more like bartering than modern trade, but it would not require a kiosk and would have no taxes, what would make offered stuff in a whole cheaper, because it does not have to earn these taxes and profit. Profit would not even be the focus, but cooperative trade for the benefit of all members.

Maybe this is a dream and cannot be done with modern people, who operate selfish and greedy, and might never experience that there could as well be a way, which is beneficial for all without to harm anyone - modern trade is always harming someone and leads to concentration of wealth. It could be different, without taxes and pressure to sell, for a common wealth - just think about it.

Volkodav · February 2016

I'm in four guilds and only support one.This is the only one who lets me to remove things from the bank.The others get nothing from me.I am talking gold donations.
Sometimes I wonder why I stay with those other guilds.