City Justice System PVP; an alternative to Open World PVP

HeroOfNone · January 2016

Heya folks,
I’d like a moment of your time to discuss creating instanced towns to allow players to steal or become guards. This alternative would be keeping with the mantra of “PVE in PVE zones, PVP in PVP zones” by walling and gating several existing cities in each faction. Players of all factions would still be able to steal, however the best loot would be locked away and warded inside the city walls. This is a compromise coming at the heels of @Lefty_Lucy ‘s Justice System PVP Thread, which shows there is still a real interest in getting a PVP element to the justice system.

Highlights

Instanced cities for those that want to PVP
High end loot for thieves, only stays if you escape through the doors of the city
Cross Faction and Battle leveling inside cities
Have only 1 guard assigned to fight you, based on how much you steal, how long you’ve carried stolen items, or if someone caught you in the act.
Get more guards assigned to apprehend you the more you steal
Failing to escape or apprehend will have consequences
Players can still steal outside the cities with the current Justice system

A Video Rundown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eu8KClT_f8

The Cities

2 to 3 cities per faction will be walled off and gates closed as you enter. A lot of them already are, and simply gates, others will need some cosmetic features to prevent folks from jumping the walls.

DaggerFall Covenant already has DaggerFall & Wayrest
Ebonheart Pact has Mournhold & Windhelm
Aldmeri dominion has Greenshade & Dune (though some work may be needed to expand them)

What is actually happening on the back end is we’re giving the town a phase instance that will allow the guards & thieves a place to play and your regular player can go in and quest. Inside the Justice system PVP side, players will also be battle leveled, equaling the playing field between lowbies and high level players and faction limitations will be removed.

The Thieves

Stealing from these cities will provide the best possible loot in the game, from purple or even gold quality items, possible crafting materials, & motifs. There are catches though, being that the loot you’re stealing is warded. Teleporting, logging out, jumping into water, using /stuck, deconstructing, or dying will rip the items from your inventory and return them to their rightful owner. The only way to get these out of the town will be to use one of the exits.

Now, you won’t be attackable right away, however potential PC guards will be alerted to your activity based on how much you steal, how long you’re in town, and if you’re caught. A 100g of stolen items for a minute may not be enough to alert guards for example, but stealing 10,000g worth of items may alert 4 to 5 guards (more on this later). Getting caught will always alert at least one guard, and possibly more based on the severity of the crime. You also won’t be able to attack these PC guards until they have been alerted to your activities, so no preemptive strike on the police will be possible.

If you are captured by guards you will also face a cool down on how long you can go back into the city to rob it again. The guards have shown your face around town and there are penalties for not escaping successfully.

Outside of the cities the Justice system won’t be any different from how it is today, except some of the loot tables may be reduced to reflect the risk/reward of the new city systems. You can still take a new player through your starter zones, stealing and breaking into houses without consequence of PVP, but still have the PVE risk of unkillable NPC guards.

The Guards

When you first come into town you’ll be given the option to join the guard faction, a group charged dealing with the rising crime. You’re reward is based in part on how large the bounty is on the person you apprehend and quests to capture “x” criminal scum. You can get similar rewards to the thieves through your capture of them and also will have access to a quartermaster based on expired “evidence”. Keep in mind though you will not be able to steal while wearing the guard uniform, and will not be able to go to the outlaw refuge for a short time after doing a guard shift.

Now before you go out busting heads you will need to wait for an NPC to come and report a crime. This will occur once a thief has stolen something as mentioned above. Until you’re given an alert, you will not be able to attack any thief, or vice versa. Only you will be able to track this person unless they are already being pursued by other guards, they stole something really valuable, or they were witnessed by several people. Other guards will only be able to assist attacking other thieves if they are alerted as well, and no healing spells or buffs you do not cast will work on you.

An alert will send you to an area, similar to a quest marker, where the criminal was last seen, and will update every 15 to 30 seconds. The more they camp, the more likely they will be caught. This is to prevent excessive camping, even with Nightblades permanent cloaking. The indicator will never be right on the player, but the radius of the area will slowly shrink and become more accurate the longer a thief stays there.

If you do not continue to capture thieves every 20 minutes or so, you may be kicked off the duty. NPCs will alert you to both NPC and player thieves, giving members ample selection to go after. If someone is attempting to buff up the numbers or fake out the arrest system, this will keep them busy, still give something of a reward, and will kick off negligent guards. Once kicked off, a cooldown will prevent you from going in as a guard again for some time.

Phase 2

This plan is only a phase 1, in the future I can see this expanding to battlegrounds when they are introduced. Where the current system is solo, the next phase would pit a team of thieves/assassins against a group of guards, who must defend various lock boxes or high profile VIPs.

Phase 3

If this proves successful enough maybe we’ll see an expansion to more cities or even open area? Can’t guarantee it with the way things are, but it might need something small scale to figure out how a large scale system could be put in place

Problems/Issues

A single player verse single player system has never been introduced before in ESO, and I’m unsure how it would be implemented. But, since they are working on dueling, I am assuming ESO has the capability
Certain PVPers and builds will be unstoppable in the current game. The assumption is though there are balance changes around the corner to help level the playing field, and certain guards will be able to hold tougher thieves back till reinforcements are called
Meta gaming will allow certain thieves to escape certain guard friends. I view this as “bribing a Guard” which will occur on occasion, but the random selection of guard to thief and the inclusion of more guards will help curb this.
If no guards are taking up the post then thieves will have free reign of the city. This is true, but they will have NPC guards to deal with, and their loot will be significantly lower quality than the number of guards assigned
A huge amount of guards and Thieves will crowd the instance. This could be solved with more instances coming up as one fills up
Some cities are small, and provide little room to navigate or escape to a gate or an outlaw hideout. This may require a city be redesigned or expanded, which wouldn’t hurt in certain cases.

Thanks folks for taking the time to read through another long post and hope to see your interest, disinterest, and comments posted below.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Sypher @FENGRUSH

Tandor · January 2016

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · January 2016

No thanks for this, not needed.

HeroOfNone · January 2016

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

PVErs have multiple ways to get materials without risk, this gives a proper risk/reward option for folks willing to risk it. otherwise PVErs get the same loot from the system they get now, so youd lose nothing in comparison.

Tan9oSuccka · January 2016

An interesting read and idea, but in my opinion they should focus attention on other issues.

Lil_Willie · January 2016

#NOETA

Dominoid · January 2016

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed post and video Hero. I can really see them implementing a PVP Justice "battle ground" at some point. That's my hope.

leeux · January 2016

I really like the ideas. And it's certainly a better system than the free-for-all, fight wherever you what, most people seem to be wanting for the JS PvP...
If implemented this way, it could be kept more in control, and any problems with the system would only affect people that are inside such an instance. That way, the rest of the game population wouldn't have to suffer through the time it takes ZOS to fix those issues.

And It's like a system that balances itself, because the more a thief robs the more guards would be called, and the more the thief kills guards the more bonty they'd have and the more guards will be called to fight him. But even then, they thief wouldn't have to fight them all at the same time, since the call for guard is asynchronous, it would have to pass some time until the next guard tracks the thief and fights him.

On the other hand, if the thief keeps a low profile and stays on the move just avoiding being caught they'd have a high chance of escaping with the treasure.

That way it gives incentive for both kinds of play style that seems to be prefered by the 'thieving stereotype'

All in all, seems like a good solution for the problem of making JS have more meaning.

EDIT: missing word

HeroOfNone · January 2016

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

An interesting read and idea, but in my opinion they should focus attention on other issues.

where they focus their development will be an issue, but there seemed to be enough interested in some form of PVP that this seemed like a viable alternative.

Dominoid wrote: »

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed post and video Hero. I can really see them implementing a PVP Justice "battle ground" at some point. That's my hope.

leeux wrote: »

I really like the ideas. And it's certainly a better system than the free-for-all, fight wherever you what, most people seem to be wanting for the JS PvP...
If implemented this way, it could be kept more in control, and any problems with the system would only affect people that are inside such an instance. That way, the rest of the game population wouldn't have to suffer through the time it takes ZOS to fix those issues.

And It's like a system that balances itself, because the more a thief robs the more guards would be called, and the more the thief kills guards the more bonty they'd have and the more guards will be called to fight him. But even then, they thief wouldn't have to fight them all at the same time, since the call for guard is asynchronous, it would have to pass some time until the next guard tracks the thief and fights him.

On the other hand, if the thief keeps a low profile and stays on the move just avoiding being caught they'd have a high chance of escaping with the treasure.

That way it gives incentive for both kinds of play style that seems to be prefered by the 'thieving stereotype'

All in all, seems like a good solution for the problem of making JS have more meaning.

EDIT: missing word

Thanks on the support and consideration

NewBlacksmurf · January 2016

Perhaps this is a push but unique servers seems to be what ppl want.
PvE server
PvP server
Mix of both

Woodoochill · January 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Perhaps this is a push but unique servers seems to be what ppl want.
PvE server
PvP server
Mix of both

I like both PVP and PVE (and I say yes to pvp justice system) but Im telling you right now i would stop playing if game was divided between 3 serves which would lower population around you so damn much it would feel like you are in dead game

Enodoc · January 2016

Sounds like a reasonable idea. Personally, I think the lack of battle-levelling in the alliance zones is one of the main reasons why Justice PvP was canned (very hard to balance a Lvl 5 vs a Lvl 45), so small city instances with battle-levelling would fix that issue completely.

Tandor · January 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Perhaps this is a push but unique servers seems to be what ppl want.
PvE server
PvP server
Mix of both

I don't see the need for three. Having one with open PvP and another with consensual PvP usually covers all bases. How viable the open PvP server would be over time is another question altogether.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · January 2016

Tandor wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Perhaps this is a push but unique servers seems to be what ppl want.
PvE server
PvP server
Mix of both

I don't see the need for three. Having one with open PvP and another with consensual PvP usually covers all bases. How viable the open PvP server would be over time is another question altogether.

I'd have to say not viable at all, lol. People would abuse the hell out of quest givers etc to get easy kills in lowbie areas.

petraeus1 · January 2016

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Tandor · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

HeroOfNone · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

Tandor · January 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

I'm not against any existing system in the game, I am simply against your proposal to change one of the systems. Cyrodiil, Trials, and IC are what they are and I'm fine with that. The Justice System is also what it is, and I am fine with that too. I don't agree with your proposal and I am entitled to hold my view, which others clearly share. Let's agree to disagree on this particular proposal.

HeroOfNone · January 2016

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

I'm not against any existing system in the game, I am simply against your proposal to change one of the systems. Cyrodiil, Trials, and IC are what they are and I'm fine with that. The Justice System is also what it is, and I am fine with that too. I don't agree with your proposal and I am entitled to hold my view, which others clearly share. Let's agree to disagree on this particular proposal.

Alright, though I'm just trying to understand the reasons why and if your actively opposed to it or if it's simply something you don't care about. If you never plan to PVP I can understand not caring about this (outside of the resources it might take to develop). If your actively opposed to it however I simply don't understand and am trying to get an understanding why, since there does seem to be an ongoing push not to give PVP players anything a PVE player can't get in a simple way.

Tandor · January 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

I'm not against any existing system in the game, I am simply against your proposal to change one of the systems. Cyrodiil, Trials, and IC are what they are and I'm fine with that. The Justice System is also what it is, and I am fine with that too. I don't agree with your proposal and I am entitled to hold my view, which others clearly share. Let's agree to disagree on this particular proposal.

Alright, though I'm just trying to understand the reasons why and if your actively opposed to it or if it's simply something you don't care about. If you never plan to PVP I can understand not caring about this (outside of the resources it might take to develop). If your actively opposed to it however I simply don't understand and am trying to get an understanding why, since there does seem to be an ongoing push not to give PVP players anything a PVE player can't get in a simple way.

I certainly don't want developer resources spent on it, but in any event I've explained why I'm opposed to it quite clearly in my opening comment. I have no interest in PvP and I don't want a PvE system changed in a way that creates better rewards that are denied to PvErs. I don't have a problem with the way the existing systems favour one playstyle or another, but your proposal represents a change to the existing system and I'm against it. If you modified your proposal so PvPers gained PvP ranking benefits or whatever they're called then that would resolve that objection with everyone getting the same loot, but I'd still oppose developer resources being used on something they've already dismissed anyway, especially as they're already working on several more worthwhile PvP improvements and additions.

HeroOfNone · January 2016

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

I'm not against any existing system in the game, I am simply against your proposal to change one of the systems. Cyrodiil, Trials, and IC are what they are and I'm fine with that. The Justice System is also what it is, and I am fine with that too. I don't agree with your proposal and I am entitled to hold my view, which others clearly share. Let's agree to disagree on this particular proposal.

Alright, though I'm just trying to understand the reasons why and if your actively opposed to it or if it's simply something you don't care about. If you never plan to PVP I can understand not caring about this (outside of the resources it might take to develop). If your actively opposed to it however I simply don't understand and am trying to get an understanding why, since there does seem to be an ongoing push not to give PVP players anything a PVE player can't get in a simple way.

I certainly don't want developer resources spent on it, but in any event I've explained why I'm opposed to it quite clearly in my opening comment. I have no interest in PvP and I don't want a PvE system changed in a way that creates better rewards that are denied to PvErs. I don't have a problem with the way the existing systems favour one playstyle or another, but your proposal represents a change to the existing system and I'm against it. If you modified your proposal so PvPers gained PvP ranking benefits or whatever they're called then that would resolve that objection with everyone getting the same loot, but I'd still oppose developer resources being used on something they've already dismissed anyway, especially as they're already working on several more worthwhile PvP improvements and additions.

Ok and maybe it's that "change" you're referring to that I font get. The Justice system outside of these PVP cities would remain as it is. The only exception might be the rarity rate might be tweaked, which might be too high for the low risk side on the PVE system. The increase on the PVP side is just increasing that rarity and offering new items (like crafting mats) that are not really part of the current stealing tables. You'd still be able to go to any towns or areas on the PVE side of things and steal what you want with only guards to worry about.

Where resources are spent are an understandable concern, and requires some public support to implement.

Vynist · January 2016

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

PvP'ers have to do PvE to get gear.

petraeus1 · January 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

I'm not against any existing system in the game, I am simply against your proposal to change one of the systems. Cyrodiil, Trials, and IC are what they are and I'm fine with that. The Justice System is also what it is, and I am fine with that too. I don't agree with your proposal and I am entitled to hold my view, which others clearly share. Let's agree to disagree on this particular proposal.

Alright, though I'm just trying to understand the reasons why and if your actively opposed to it or if it's simply something you don't care about. If you never plan to PVP I can understand not caring about this (outside of the resources it might take to develop). If your actively opposed to it however I simply don't understand and am trying to get an understanding why, since there does seem to be an ongoing push not to give PVP players anything a PVE player can't get in a simple way.

I certainly don't want developer resources spent on it, but in any event I've explained why I'm opposed to it quite clearly in my opening comment. I have no interest in PvP and I don't want a PvE system changed in a way that creates better rewards that are denied to PvErs. I don't have a problem with the way the existing systems favour one playstyle or another, but your proposal represents a change to the existing system and I'm against it. If you modified your proposal so PvPers gained PvP ranking benefits or whatever they're called then that would resolve that objection with everyone getting the same loot, but I'd still oppose developer resources being used on something they've already dismissed anyway, especially as they're already working on several more worthwhile PvP improvements and additions.

Ok and maybe it's that "change" you're referring to that I font get. The Justice system outside of these PVP cities would remain as it is. The only exception might be the rarity rate might be tweaked, which might be too high for the low risk side on the PVE system. The increase on the PVP side is just increasing that rarity and offering new items (like crafting mats) that are not really part of the current stealing tables. You'd still be able to go to any towns or areas on the PVE side of things and steal what you want with only guards to worry about.

Where resources are spent are an understandable concern, and requires some public support to implement.

I'd also wanna add that the Justice System is only a PvE system because they scrapped the PvP part. Having recently looked up their announcement of the system and its follow-ups, it seems to me to be quite clear that it was never intended to be a PvE system. I'm also with Heroofnone, in the regards that harder content should have better rewards. So should they implement a feature similar to your proposal, it would only be reasonable for it to have better reward than PvE thieving (though again, I'm weary of reward farming). Lets be honest, the current system is kinda broken, both from a gameplay and from an economic perspective. No risk, all reward. It's challenging when you're low level, but after that it's a cakewalk. So I really hope they at least tweak the PvE side of it sooner rather than later, if a PvP implementation is not coming this year.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

I'm not against any existing system in the game, I am simply against your proposal to change one of the systems. Cyrodiil, Trials, and IC are what they are and I'm fine with that. The Justice System is also what it is, and I am fine with that too. I don't agree with your proposal and I am entitled to hold my view, which others clearly share. Let's agree to disagree on this particular proposal.

Alright, though I'm just trying to understand the reasons why and if your actively opposed to it or if it's simply something you don't care about. If you never plan to PVP I can understand not caring about this (outside of the resources it might take to develop). If your actively opposed to it however I simply don't understand and am trying to get an understanding why, since there does seem to be an ongoing push not to give PVP players anything a PVE player can't get in a simple way.

I certainly don't want developer resources spent on it, but in any event I've explained why I'm opposed to it quite clearly in my opening comment. I have no interest in PvP and I don't want a PvE system changed in a way that creates better rewards that are denied to PvErs. I don't have a problem with the way the existing systems favour one playstyle or another, but your proposal represents a change to the existing system and I'm against it. If you modified your proposal so PvPers gained PvP ranking benefits or whatever they're called then that would resolve that objection with everyone getting the same loot, but I'd still oppose developer resources being used on something they've already dismissed anyway, especially as they're already working on several more worthwhile PvP improvements and additions.

Ok and maybe it's that "change" you're referring to that I font get. The Justice system outside of these PVP cities would remain as it is. The only exception might be the rarity rate might be tweaked, which might be too high for the low risk side on the PVE system. The increase on the PVP side is just increasing that rarity and offering new items (like crafting mats) that are not really part of the current stealing tables. You'd still be able to go to any towns or areas on the PVE side of things and steal what you want with only guards to worry about.

Where resources are spent are an understandable concern, and requires some public support to implement.

I'd also wanna add that the Justice System is only a PvE system because they scrapped the PvP part. Having recently looked up their announcement of the system and its follow-ups, it seems to me to be quite clear that it was never intended to be a PvE system. I'm also with Heroofnone, in the regards that harder content should have better rewards. So should they implement a feature similar to your proposal, it would only be reasonable for it to have better reward than PvE thieving (though again, I'm weary of reward farming). Lets be honest, the current system is kinda broken, both from a gameplay and from an economic perspective. No risk, all reward. It's challenging when you're low level, but after that it's a cakewalk. So I really hope they at least tweak the PvE side of it sooner rather than later, if a PvP implementation is not coming this year.

Well, gankers in IC got no risk and all reward too if we're going by your logic. They risk nothing except time to get a ton of TV's by getting 1-2 hits on someone farming the sewers and worst case they'll still end up with nothing less than they started with and best case a lot more than they started with. Should they get nerfed rewards too then?

HeroOfNone · January 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

@heroofnone Interesting solutions, especially to the most worrisome potential issues: camping and imbalance (due to there not being enough guards/thieves). It still seems exploitable though, especially when populations are low. Given your proposal of 6 different cities throughout Tamriel and my impression that there is a minority interested in this, but not a large enough minority to ensure a constant upkeep of population, I can imagine people going in, one guard and one thief, and help each other out. I think @dominoid 's idea of a battleground is more feasible. Have system that just puts players on a side (don't let them choose themselves), implement communication barriers between the sides, and scale rewards based on each side's performance, so people are incentivized to help their own faction. It would also need a minimum amount of players and auto-balancing imo. I can't help but feel if the rewards are too good, players will find a way to exploit these kinds of systems and ZOS will nerf them or remove them. I personally wouldn't care for the rewards, just good ol' cops 'n robbers will give me fun and I'll be satisfied.

Cases of "bribing the guard" will occur, but that's where the penalties for letting criminals escape or getting captures will play out. Let too many go and you'll be forced out of guard duty for a while, maybe even the day, if we're being severe with the punishment. The thieves could face similar consequences for stealing and getting caught, being locked out of the PVP instance for a few minutes and on an increasing scale for each capture (10 min the first time, 30 min the next, 1 hour the 3rd, etc.)

As for cross faction communication, I figured the standard cyrodiil rule set where enemy factions outside of whispers or guild can't hear each other would apply.

As for incentives to do well, I considered a token system or thieving leaderboards, but felt if this was picked up the devs would figure the best way to control that. Doing it based on the amount of money or number of arrests may not be the best way.

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

So PvErs don't qualify for decent loot?

No thanks.

@Tandor I don't mean to be rude, but that's odd reasoning. If I don't want to run Trials, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna do Cyrodiil, I don't qualify for certain loot. If I don't wanna buy Orsinium, I don't qualify for certain loot. That's how it works in MMOs. Why are those instances okay, but not this particular idea?

Because it's taking an existing PvE system and adding enhanced rewards but only for PvPers. Not the same thing as Trials or Cyrodiil at all.

And where is the issue with cyrodiil having enhanced EXP for PVPers? Or imperial city having PVE fights for trophy tokens to open vaults? Or are you opposed to that?

On the PVE specific end, we have veteran dungeons with hard mode challenges to get gold keys. In trials we have hard mode challenges to get more points on the leader board to get gold loot (when they fix it again). Are you against these different modes because they don't give the same loot at just doing the normal modes?

Again, not taking away a thing for the PVEr, just giving a PVP option that gives better reward for the risk you take, like so many other challenges in the game.

I'm not against any existing system in the game, I am simply against your proposal to change one of the systems. Cyrodiil, Trials, and IC are what they are and I'm fine with that. The Justice System is also what it is, and I am fine with that too. I don't agree with your proposal and I am entitled to hold my view, which others clearly share. Let's agree to disagree on this particular proposal.

Alright, though I'm just trying to understand the reasons why and if your actively opposed to it or if it's simply something you don't care about. If you never plan to PVP I can understand not caring about this (outside of the resources it might take to develop). If your actively opposed to it however I simply don't understand and am trying to get an understanding why, since there does seem to be an ongoing push not to give PVP players anything a PVE player can't get in a simple way.

I certainly don't want developer resources spent on it, but in any event I've explained why I'm opposed to it quite clearly in my opening comment. I have no interest in PvP and I don't want a PvE system changed in a way that creates better rewards that are denied to PvErs. I don't have a problem with the way the existing systems favour one playstyle or another, but your proposal represents a change to the existing system and I'm against it. If you modified your proposal so PvPers gained PvP ranking benefits or whatever they're called then that would resolve that objection with everyone getting the same loot, but I'd still oppose developer resources being used on something they've already dismissed anyway, especially as they're already working on several more worthwhile PvP improvements and additions.

Ok and maybe it's that "change" you're referring to that I font get. The Justice system outside of these PVP cities would remain as it is. The only exception might be the rarity rate might be tweaked, which might be too high for the low risk side on the PVE system. The increase on the PVP side is just increasing that rarity and offering new items (like crafting mats) that are not really part of the current stealing tables. You'd still be able to go to any towns or areas on the PVE side of things and steal what you want with only guards to worry about.

Where resources are spent are an understandable concern, and requires some public support to implement.

I'd also wanna add that the Justice System is only a PvE system because they scrapped the PvP part. Having recently looked up their announcement of the system and its follow-ups, it seems to me to be quite clear that it was never intended to be a PvE system. I'm also with Heroofnone, in the regards that harder content should have better rewards. So should they implement a feature similar to your proposal, it would only be reasonable for it to have better reward than PvE thieving (though again, I'm weary of reward farming). Lets be honest, the current system is kinda broken, both from a gameplay and from an economic perspective. No risk, all reward. It's challenging when you're low level, but after that it's a cakewalk. So I really hope they at least tweak the PvE side of it sooner rather than later, if a PvP implementation is not coming this year.

Well, gankers in IC got no risk and all reward too if we're going by your logic. They risk nothing except time to get a ton of TV's by getting 1-2 hits on someone farming the sewers and worst case they'll still end up with nothing less than they started with and best case a lot more than they started with. Should they get nerfed rewards too then?

Class balance issues are a separate from game mechanics. But, I do feel the meta instagib builds out there is why so many players are fearful of any type of PVP when they don't have a Nightblade or Sorcerer. That is why I suggested a system like this however

Your target/hunter is randomized, thus you won't have the same person dominating everyone
A thief's goal is to survive and escape with as much loot as possible, not to fight. This gives alternatives to trying to beat someone
you have a head start to escape
If a thief is too strong, guards can wait for backup by not engaging or going with more sustain and just slowing down the thief
multiple thief spots, multiple exits, room to move, to aid in passive escape options.

It's not perfect, but I feel it would offer a better experience than IC does currently.